IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2026-03-29
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05:07:36 <Yup> Are there any known problems with boats?
05:08:14 <__abigail> Yup: Sometimes they sink. They're also fat and slow and ugly
05:08:28 <Yup> For some reason, they went crazy on a very short channel. I even set them up with a buoy, but they still can't handle everything.
05:09:12 <Yup> __abigail: Are drunk captains enabled by default? Mine are really stupid.
05:17:11 <Philemon> isn't that nadir's realm?
05:19:11 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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08:10:34 <Yup> Hello once again. Did anyone respond to anything about boats? My computer rebooted.
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08:26:48 <Philemon> I am sitting on my brain, sorry, I just can't recall the name of the guy working on the ship's pathfinder
08:34:19 <Philemon> Yup: also, usually there's more traffic here. you really seem to have poked into a hole. just wait, several days, if neccessary. you'll get a helpful reply eventually
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08:35:36 <Yup> No, there's no urgency. I just noticed it by chance. Maybe someone might be interested.
08:35:52 <rito12_13> Yup: Have you tried placing more buoys?
08:36:56 <Yup> rito12_13: nope. only that one. But I tried to hollow out more water around it and move the buoy a little earlier - for some reason they still turn around.
08:37:55 <ahyangyi> That I don't have an IRC bouncer is why I don't use IRC much 🙁
08:38:35 <Yup> But it's strange that these ships got lost recently. They've sailed there before. And some can still sail by. For example, in this video, one of the cargo ships was smogged.
08:38:45 <ahyangyi> Or perhaps I should say I am using discord as my bouncer
08:40:02 <Yup> * one of the ships managed to do so.
08:45:41 <rito12_13> I can reproduce it by just running the game, maybe you should create an issue on GitHub?
09:30:35 <reldred> i would have thought it should be starting to warm up, it's starting to cool down here in the other hemisphere.
09:35:29 <reldred> oh that's positively warm for the UK
09:40:31 <Yup> I'll record a new video in a couple of minutes.
09:45:48 <Philemon> ok, nice solution, good to know. though, the pathfinder should do better
09:46:03 <Philemon> might be worth a bug report
09:46:16 <peter1138> Well. Is it because they were trying to find a depot?
09:47:55 <Yup> One of the boats had a status flash in its window, indicating it needed servicing for a second. So, it seems consistent with the fact that they were sailing normally before. And then suddenly they started circling.
09:49:01 <peter1138> Might be worth opening a bug report with the savegame, whether it's a bug or just unexpected behaviour I don't know.
10:44:45 <reldred> this sounds like the usual problem that happens with trains with not using explicit depot orders
10:56:46 <pickpacket> I didn't write it. It's based on version 12.x, and I have my own repo with it where I've just updated github actions to be able to build artifacts.
10:58:53 <pickpacket> It's on my todo list to re-make that in a better way. Actually rn looking for where the data type CompanyID is defined, because it needs more bits to support more companies :D I'd like to change it to a full byte
10:59:48 <pickpacket> peter1138: you did some testing with more company colours, didn't you?
11:02:03 <pickpacket> masterhellish: of course a pandemic could be added as a gamescript, and if it's based on real world examples then spanish flu should be included :D
11:03:12 <reldred> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa tyler called it a 'newgraf' as well
11:03:31 <peter1138> reldred, he's a newbie.
11:04:29 <reldred> it'll always be gurf/girf
11:04:54 <pickpacket> reldred: I spell the letters out 😬
11:04:54 <ahyangyi> though I can also just "new grrrrrf"
11:05:14 <pickpacket> althought New-giraffe sounds awesome
11:06:53 <masterhellish> pickpacket: Is this based on the spiffing version? As that's the version that I've used previously
11:10:21 <reldred> you picked the absolute best bit of scrollback in this channel to screenshot masterhellish , me losing my goddamn mind for like two hour straight 🤣
11:12:41 <pickpacket> masterhellish: it is literally the spiffing version, with updated github actions because someone on your discord asked for a binary of it sometime last year :)
11:13:46 <reldred> I'm sorry timberwolf, that was not one of my finer moments 😅
11:19:08 <peter1138> It's pronounced newgrf, clearly.
11:20:11 <Philemon> it is short for NewGRaFeneoxide
11:22:27 <audigex> The real problem is that everyone assumes new means “latest/recent”
11:22:27 <audigex> It’d actually an acronym for Never Enough Work
11:28:10 <masterhellish> reldred: I tried to make it nice and quick just to get a bit of an idea rather than focusing on any particular conversation
11:30:02 <reldred> I don't shy away from my foot in mouth moments, I've been around long enough people generally know what I'm about 🤣
11:30:15 <reldred> belajalilija: Yeah your chirping was in there too 😛
11:30:24 <reldred> mostly me crashing out though
11:30:42 <belajalilija> What’s the timestamp?
11:31:15 <reldred> It was when I was losing my absolute shit trying to figure out timberwolfs build system to get james building the train set
11:31:45 <belajalilija> Oh i don’t recall doing anything untoward at that moment
11:32:09 <reldred> I think you were just sitting back and laughing at me losing my goddamn gourd
11:32:48 <belajalilija> I do appreciate how hands off i can be with this moderation thing normally
11:33:04 <peter1138> Main issue with increasing the max number of companies is storing it in the map array.
11:33:19 <peter1138> I can't remember how many companies that branch allows.
11:33:24 <belajalilija> belajalilija: Not that i ever do
11:42:55 <reldred> PR8480 mentioned raaaaaaa
11:46:46 <belajalilija> no idea what it means tho
11:47:13 <belajalilija> something about love ig
11:51:40 <Yup> belajalilija: White dragonfly of love
11:52:47 <Yup> Listen, is it a special feature that the plane crashes so often after loading a save?
11:54:52 <Yup> I load the save. And in the first five minutes, one of the planes crashes very frequently. Then there are two or three hours of silence.
12:06:18 <locosage> yes, to discourage save scumming /s
12:06:46 <locosage> game is kind of deterministic though, so if you load the same save and do nothing different it will play the same including crashes
12:09:57 <ahyangyi> Being in servers of quite a few open source games, this comment made me realize OpenTTD is about the only one where save scumming makes little sense 😛
12:12:43 <Yup> No, no, I play the same game from 1950 to 2050, in the evenings. I save and then quit. I load up the next day, for example.
12:19:32 <reldred> I stayed up too late watching that interview now I’ve got a headache 😭
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12:30:27 <_jgr_> `using` is just new syntax for `typedef`
12:30:50 <pickpacket> Ah. So... that line is itÄ?
12:32:06 <_jgr_> Yes, that line defines the type, the size and the valid range
12:38:12 <Borg> _jgr_: when did 'using' came in?
12:39:15 <Borg> hmm long time ago.. I never heard about it..
12:39:54 <Borg> still.. odd stuff.. seems C++ is in his downfall....
12:40:27 <pickpacket> I must be misinterpreting that line. I thought that a company's ID ran from 0-15 (where 0 i no company), but what does that uint8_t mean in that case?
12:40:54 <Borg> pickpacket: INVALID_COMPANY is 0xff
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12:41:14 <Borg> also look for OWNED_NONE and DEITY
12:45:21 <pickpacket> Borg: wait. Can a company have an ID from 0-255 already?
12:46:40 <kuhnovic> Philemon: That would be me 😉
12:47:29 <Borg> pickpacket: its byte, but MAX_COMPANIES is set ot 0x0F
12:47:51 <Borg> look at compaty_type.h header
12:47:54 <kuhnovic> Yup: Even though you've found a workaround, can you create a bug report with a savegame attached? Worth having a look
12:47:59 <pickpacket> ah! *That's* what I want to change, I guess
12:48:30 <Borg> pickpacket: if you want to increase amount of companies.. it should be easy
12:48:42 <Borg> but you need to take care of save conversion
12:49:00 <Borg> also.. I I bet there will be some more side effects ;)
12:49:10 <pickpacket> Borg: yeah, I've heard that it's not as easy as one may expect
12:49:37 <Borg> pickpacket: git grep -F MAX_COMPANIES
12:49:47 <Borg> is your friend. to see where and how some stuff is allocated
12:50:11 <_jgr_> You should have a look at docs/landscape.html and docs/landscape_grid.html first
12:51:59 <pickpacket> But... uh... I only find this: static const uint8_t MAX_COMPANIES = CompanyID::End().base();
12:52:17 <pickpacket> and that falls back to the definition of CompanyID, which I don't understand
12:53:14 <Borg> in good old times.. we used to use enums for that
12:53:18 <Borg> but.. progress I guess... ;)
12:53:34 <Borg> time to play some 1ooM (Master Of Orion)
12:54:10 <peter1138> CompanyID is a strong integral type, designed to be incompatible with regular integral types.
12:55:52 <locosage> designed to make compiler errors illegible without llm /s
12:57:46 <Yup> kuhnovic: hello. I don't have a GitHub account. Can we just forward these videos to the right person?
13:00:17 <pickpacket> peter1138: My issue is strictly a me problem: I don't understand the definition :)
13:00:44 <pickpacket> but I'm not even sure about that
13:00:54 <peter1138> Yes, that is the definition of a CompanyID
13:01:45 <peter1138> It defines it as PoolID with the template parameters in the angle brackets.
13:02:43 <ahyangyi> locosage: And costs too many tokens with llm ?
13:03:20 <pickpacket> but... what does "PoolID" mean? :(
13:03:34 <peter1138> pickpacket, that's defined in core/pool_type.hpp
13:06:53 <pickpacket> peter1138: thanks. Trying to understand that now 😂
13:13:49 <pickpacket> Okay, I think I *might* have sort of hang of it
13:25:46 <_glx_> and the fun part is CompanyID is 8bits, but in many places only 4bits are stored 😉
13:28:41 <pickpacket> _glx_: well it *does* declare the maximum length to be 0xF, and 0xFF to be "INVALID"
13:31:53 <peter1138> The more company branch allows 501 companies, so requires 9 bit values.
13:33:12 <peter1138> Map storage works by leaving the existing bits where they are and storing more bits in a new part of the map array.
13:49:09 <pickpacket> I'm thinking that 255 companies is more than enough
14:00:02 <andythenorth> do we have 255 colours? 👀
14:00:30 <pickpacket> andythenorth: not yet!
14:00:55 <pickpacket> Making way for 255 companies is not a one-step process :D
14:03:28 <pickpacket> expanding the number of available colour should actually be the first step, I guess
14:14:20 <peter1138> Or just allow colours to be non-unique in all cases.
14:14:31 <_jgr_> 255 colours would be visually indistinguishable anyway
14:14:56 <peter1138> I think I had a patch for "us vs them" colours.
14:17:43 <pickpacket> peter1138: I thought you had experimented with more colours
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14:19:34 <pickpacket> near-identical colours would be preferable to identical colours, imho
14:27:13 <peter1138> As _jgr_ says 255 colours would be indistinguishable, 500 even more so.
14:30:41 <pickpacket> I'd say *nearly* indistinguishable. And 255 is plenty enough
14:35:07 <mmtunligit> Yup: make a github account, we have a proper bug report process for a reason
14:40:19 <ahyangyi> peter1138: And even with non-unique colours, there are enough unique 2cc combinations?
14:40:26 <Borg> actually.. that us vs them colors is best idea if we want >15 companies
14:40:48 <peter1138> ahyangyi, not for 500 players.
14:40:56 <Borg> also, all graphs should be redone like.. shown only your company with sth like filter list.. compare to
14:45:18 <ahyangyi> peter1138: Was talking about 255 players
14:47:18 <ahyangyi> colour display modes are mostly orthogonal to company colours afaik, though funnily I think there is actually no guarantee that colour does not affect anything that can cause oos, right?
14:49:09 <ahyangyi> Hmm, so theoretically one can make such a weird set, where each company colour combination of the same vehicle has slightly different attributes?
14:49:59 <talltyler> It may be worth remembering that vanilla vehicles don’t have 2CC 🙂
14:50:16 <ahyangyi> vanilla does not have 255 companies either.
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14:52:11 <ahyangyi> I mean you can always hide the extra companies in an advanced setting if "inconsistencies between vanilla vehicle set and default company number" worries you?
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14:53:18 <ahyangyi> I personally don't see much conflict btw. For example, there can be a game with 16 human players, and 16 AI companies sharing the same colour
14:53:45 <ahyangyi> That'll be all vanilla, and more than 16 companies, and not much confusion because nobody really cares which AI station is which
14:55:09 <andythenorth> what about using patterns for companies? :P
14:55:21 <andythenorth> we could reskin the meshes with new textures?
14:55:59 <ahyangyi> We already do that in our 4 bit mode
14:56:06 <ahyangyi> (which does not exist)
14:56:26 <peter1138> No, you cannot have a game with 16 human companies and 16 AI companies.
15:00:14 <_glx_> @pickpacket anyway number of actual companies will be less than 250, because you still have to account for town, none, water, deity, inactive client, new company and spectator
15:02:04 <peter1138> masterhellish, how many companies did you have active btw?
15:02:18 <peter1138> I can't remember if it was maxed out or not./
15:07:36 <masterhellish> peter1138: On the spiffing fork? I have had a few but I did have 500 one time
15:08:09 <pickpacket> masterhellish: I need to re-watch that video :D
15:10:31 <pickpacket> _glx_: oh! Hmm... Could cap it at 200 or something. That's still very high, for human players
15:12:01 <pickpacket> It would be cool to support an arbitrary number of companies, up to MAX_INT, but it would also be absolutely pointless beyond the coolness factor
15:12:23 <masterhellish> The ones I have done have only been with AI companies. The ones that the spiffing Brit did I think had about 150 people in the most people. We've had planes at the same time in any of my games has been around 50 people
15:12:50 <pickpacket> masterhellish: with spiff we were never more than 64 companies/players iirc
15:13:18 <masterhellish> I could be wrong but I think there were more than that
15:13:57 <pickpacket> I was in both the massive multiplayer and the BR
15:14:18 <pickpacket> He was aiming for 100 players in both but didn't manage to find that many
15:14:50 <pickpacket> I'll check in a little bit. Listening to another vid rn
15:16:49 <masterhellish> Oh dear what can of worms have I re-setarted
15:17:38 <pickpacket> masterhellish: hahaha! Don't worry, I get back to this at least once a month even without your involvement :D
15:18:12 <pickpacket> I really want to increase the max nr of players to allow for the kind of big games spiff and you have run in vanilla
15:18:29 <pickpacket> have wanted that since the first game on the spiff mod
15:18:59 <masterhellish> It would be nice to run a community game without forcing everybody to share companies
15:23:27 <masterhellish> I love the idea of adding incremental changes. That would be a benefit to the game that would also enable this to happen in future.
15:23:27 <masterhellish> By the way, this is a good point to let anybody know that I really don't mind being pinged as I sit on my own Discord server for most of the time. If there's ever anything you want me for or I might be interested in, do feel free to ping me
15:26:22 <rito12_13> > uint32_t m9; ///< Stores the actuall ownership information
15:31:29 <rito12_13> They store 4 owners in each tile... nice
15:50:38 <pickpacket> rito12_13: m9..? 🤔
15:51:12 <peter1138> CompanyID is larger, it has to be stored somewhere.
16:00:56 <Borg> masterhellish: so. how was it? 50 companies? what interesting interactions happened?
16:01:39 <Borg> this sort of game might be interesting w/ complicated industry set, providing extra cargos, but what is more importand.. divers chains combinations where multiple cargo is used by multiple industries...
16:02:00 <Borg> so, player who want to boost production, might want to cooperatate.. transfering lacking cargos for example..
16:04:55 <masterhellish> So for games where the Max company was higher, I've only taken part in spiff's live streams and those ones were quite focused on money and business battle style of game because shares were still in the game and stuff as well. For the games I've run they have all been running various different AIs.
16:05:54 <Borg> I guess stuff was chaotic...
16:11:54 <pickpacket> masterhellish: double checked now and there was 64 of us in the BR game. That was the most it's been afaik
16:12:09 <pickpacket> the massive multiplayer stream before that was a bit less
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16:18:17 <pickpacket> hm... for now I think I'll have to conclude that I don't understand enough to increase the multiplayer limit. Too much Pool here and Pool there that I don't have the cognitive capacity for atm
16:24:03 <peter1138> I can guarantee that you do not need to change anything about how pools work to increase the company limit.
16:24:20 <pickpacket> peter1138: no, I just need to understand them :D
16:24:21 <peter1138> (Not the client limit, which is perhaps what you meant by multiplayer limit)
16:25:10 <pickpacket> I meant company limit
16:27:38 <peter1138> You don't even really need to understand how pools and pool IDs work.
16:27:54 <hazardaj_nombroj> huh, interesting, lines for "full load" orders say "wait for" for more complicated orders (transit / no unloading), but not for regular full load any/all
16:28:18 <peter1138> The definition at company_type.h#L16 defines the ID type used by, and the limits of, the pool.
16:29:49 <hazardaj_nombroj> i am looking to shorten the labels on the buttons for "full load any/all" in the esperanto localization, right now they're stretching the heck out of the orders window, and was considering if relabeling them as something like "no waiting / wait for any / wait for all / no loading" could work instead
16:30:24 <pickpacket> peter1138: yeah and that compiles when changed but then the assertion I linked to breaks when starting the game. Not sure why.
16:30:40 <pickpacket> I mean, I obviously know why, but not why that state occurs
16:31:03 <peter1138> pickpacket, well you can't just change that line.
16:31:27 <pickpacket> I understand that :D Trying to figure out what else I need to change
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16:31:29 <bfgiant> I have what I now realize is a huge block of text regarding increased company count related to the current discussion, is this the best place for it?
16:32:09 <hazardaj_nombroj> ooh, increased company count
16:32:29 <bfgiant> I'm glad I asked, any pointers? I checked development forum but didn't see anything
16:32:34 <hazardaj_nombroj> but yeah, IRC not the best place for long texts
16:33:13 <bfgiant> Maybe the forum then, I'll mull over mu thoughts a bit more
16:33:22 <peter1138> github discussion perhaps.
16:34:29 <pickpacket> github discussion would be good, but I still think the forums are more accessible to non-tech users
16:35:38 <hazardaj_nombroj> oh, i can just change the label on the toggle button itself and keep the dropdown longer
16:35:53 <hazardaj_nombroj> that's what currently happens in the russian localization
16:36:33 <peter1138> I think as long as the meaning is pretty much the same you can do what ever is needed for the translation.
16:37:27 <peter1138> Of course going complete off-script is another matter :)
16:39:17 <hazardaj_nombroj> well, this time i avoided going off-script
16:40:30 <hazardaj_nombroj> the drop-down items still say "load fully (any cargo)/(all cargoes)" respectively, but the toggle button itself just says "load fully any"
16:40:47 <hazardaj_nombroj> this should unstretch the orders window nicely
16:41:03 <peter1138> pickpacket, you'll also need to redefine the OWNER_* constants, probably in terms of CompanyID::End() rather than 0x0F etc...
16:41:23 <peter1138> pickpacket, and 0xFE is too high considering you need to fit all of those in before 0xFF.
16:42:07 <kuhnovic> Yup: Just make an account, it's a minor inconvenience. Sending something to one developer hoping for things to get fixed usually means that things don't get fixed 😉
16:46:24 <hazardaj_nombroj> question for y'all: does the minimap in "industry types" mode expect there to be 3 or 4 columns of labels? because i get only 2 in the default game, but the width implies there can be more
16:48:50 <peter1138> The column width is the same for all modes, and other modes do that 3 columns.
16:50:18 <peter1138> Usually it's the number of cargo types that influences it the most.
16:50:29 <ahyangyi> And that mode can have more than 2 columns when using non-vanilla industry sets.
16:51:41 <ahyangyi> I gave FIRS 4 steeltown a try and apparently with enough window width I get 5 columns
16:52:33 <peter1138> $ git branch | wc -l
17:04:31 <hazardaj_nombroj> looks like whoever did the esperanto localization for "fizzy drinks" before didn't quite figure out it was just a UK term for what otherwise would be "soft drinks" and went with an equivalent to "funny/amusing drinks" instead
17:05:01 <hazardaj_nombroj> which works for the toyland setting, i guess, but also makes for the longest industry name in the list
17:05:44 <hazardaj_nombroj> all the other strings are good at avoiding being overly long
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18:09:24 <squirejames> Perhaps an odd question but, when you rename vehicles from the purchase menu, where is that data stored? Is it unique to that saved game? Is it saveable/loadable somewhere?
18:10:44 <mmtunligit> Does it carry over to other savegames? If yes, an ini file somewhere, if no, in the save game itself
18:12:58 <peter1138> Vehicle names are saved with each vehicle.
18:13:42 <peter1138> Engine names are saved with each engine.
18:13:46 <peter1138> Both only in the savegame.
18:15:01 <squirejames> So, saved within the save game. Hmm. Okeedokes.
18:19:16 <peter1138> I've heard it's an hour's work to save and load it all elsewhere...
18:21:11 <hazardaj_nombroj> i guess the original TTD saves them elsewhere, because it has an option to toggle between original and custom vehicle names
18:21:45 <hazardaj_nombroj> presumably so that transportation nerds (affectionate) can replace all the fictional names of engines/wagons with their real counterparts
18:22:11 <squirejames> That was my thinking yes hazard. Either way, I'll find a way around it. Basically I am trying to rename (but not otherwise edit) existing vehicles in another newGRF. Naturally I can do it ingame via that facility but, there's no way (seemingly) to copy that over to other saved games automagically, or to distribute it for others
18:27:55 <peter1138> Original TTD didn't have NewGRF engines to deal with :)
18:46:30 <mmtunligit> squirejames: Hex editor on the save file maybe idk
18:55:37 <squirejames> I do love me a hex edit
19:22:08 <peter1138> Hexediting compressed files is such fun?
19:22:30 <hazardaj_nombroj> what does "Planned" and "Waiting" specifically mean in the "Sort by" part of the station view?
20:23:58 <Borg> heh.. YT is unusable these days
20:24:09 <Borg> amount of Ads is just..astronomical
20:24:24 <Borg> pickpacket: its your movie? you uploaded it?
20:27:26 <Borg> peter1138: haha, nice.. so many failed experiments? :D
20:35:12 <peter1138> Not so much failed.
20:35:50 <Borg> but I guess its unmerged stuff, right?
20:37:25 <andythenorth> what badge should I be using for electric engines?
20:37:38 <andythenorth> seems I failed to use them
20:50:59 <Borg> anyway, late.. sleep time.. night
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