IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2026-03-08
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00:00:46 <xarick> I'm off to bed. Leaving the AIs battling it out online during the night
00:59:17 <emperorjake> He's already banned for a week
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02:36:54 <reldred> well on the other hand this place is finally gonna get some peace and quiet, someone ping rubidium and tell him it's safe for at least the next week 🤣
02:45:35 <davidxn> emperorjake: Thank you for taking action ❤️
02:54:56 <__abigail> When you said `IsBuildableRectangle` should use a `TileArea`, did you mean something like this?
02:54:56 <__abigail> /* static */ bool ScriptTile::IsBuildableRectangle(TileArea ta)
02:54:58 <__abigail> for (auto tile : ta) {
02:54:58 <__abigail> if (!::IsValidTile(tile)) return false;
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03:05:51 <_glx_> no, the signature should be kept, but the double for loop can use a singe TileArea iteration
03:08:15 <_glx_> something like `for (auto tile : TileArea(tile, width, height) {...}`
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03:24:22 <__abigail> Oh I get what you mean yeah
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04:25:37 <__abigail> Yeah nah, tried to suggest a multiple-line change and I think it's stuffed
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05:01:00 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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07:55:18 <rito12_51026> xarick: I don't get it, you spam here with AI slops, and you seem to like Copilot, don't you? Are you trying to say something deeper, something from the inside? Then why are we banning people for such confessions? I don't get it but I don't mind it
07:59:08 <LordAro> there are a great many things x arick does not (and cannot) properly understand. best not to think about it too hard and tell them no when appropriate
08:02:26 <rito12_51026> Great, will follow that
08:03:10 <andythenorth> we haven't found any better solution that works for everyone
08:09:44 <ahyangyi> acs121: Can just be an observation without particular implications
08:22:14 <andythenorth> naptime already?
08:23:37 <__abigail> Yeah I'm in bed atm after a long day of doing nothing and being sick
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09:00:54 <reldred> andythenorth: all you can do is prune the weeds
09:01:19 <andythenorth> or burn it to the ground :P
09:02:08 <reldred> I mean like yeah you don’t wanna bully someone or exclude someone, but if the alternative is they alienate your community and drive everyone away then you gotta strike hard and fast.
09:02:40 <reldred> He’s been given fifty million warning as it is, throwing a bit of homophobia on top didn’t help his cause.
09:06:30 <andythenorth> apropros of nothing in particular
09:06:45 <andythenorth> my hunch is that standards fall and rise in communities
09:07:06 <andythenorth> the main #openttd irc for a long time didn't even really have swearing in it
09:07:36 <andythenorth> when the general standard of discussion is piss poor, it just encourages more of the same
09:08:39 <reldred> Yeah I generally try and behave in this channel at least
09:09:17 <andythenorth> when lots of the chat has zero value, it's a bit depressing, better times can be had elsewhere
09:10:06 <andythenorth> last time it was analysed, 50% of OpenTTD lines were me :P
09:10:18 <__abigail> yeah yeah yeah okay champion
09:11:03 <reldred> I mean it’s not hard to dominate statistics when you’ve been around for 15-20yrs or so.
09:11:12 <andythenorth> a lot of short one lines
09:11:13 <belajalilija> __abigail: Fucking drongo
09:11:36 <reldred> But even back in the day, #tycoon was always a lot more unhinged than Discord channel #openttd was
09:12:03 <andythenorth> yeah I stayed out of it :P
09:12:06 <reldred> I always got chased out back in those days for being uncouth, or having an awaynick lmao
09:12:22 <__abigail> belajalilija: And you're a sheepshagger with a name that sounds like it was pulled straight from Thomas the Tank Engine
09:12:24 <andythenorth> these ones go to 11
09:13:10 <will_marshall_> reldred: back in the day even tycoon had #noocyt as a safety valve...
09:13:12 <belajalilija> Who doesn’t like big ones?
09:13:29 <reldred> has Ragin convinced you to do more longer wagons? 😛
09:13:57 <reldred> will_marshall_: The worst of us had our own secret channel anyway.
09:14:11 <will_marshall_> I genuinely dread to think.
09:14:25 <will_marshall_> What sort of conversations were had in there.
09:14:54 <andythenorth> peter1138 such robot :)
09:14:55 <will_marshall_> Thank god that everything I said on the internet about 2 decades ago has been lost to time.
09:15:04 <andythenorth> bring back Truebrain :P
09:15:12 <reldred> Pretty sure the irc logs still exist
09:15:34 <andythenorth> oof I have some of those to sell, such admin to do
09:15:42 <peter1138> #tycoon still exists
09:15:43 <will_marshall_> i love a tasty IPA
09:16:07 <peter1138> When you all get bored or pissed off enough with Discord, it's there to go back to.
09:16:11 <__abigail> andythenorth: I'm confused
09:16:46 <will_marshall_> there aren't 11, false advertising
09:17:20 <reldred> I’m enjoying 7/11’s up here
09:17:23 <andythenorth> 11 is more than 10 isn't it
09:17:35 <reldred> I need to try the gyoza, the onigiri is okay I suppose
09:17:54 <will_marshall_> i could go for some 7/11 style treats again today
09:18:13 <reldred> But the gigantic sugar free slurpees for $2.50 I’m a big fan of
09:18:24 <__abigail> will_marshall_: Mmmmm
09:18:24 <__abigail> Sausage rolls heated for 6 hours but never the ones you want
09:18:43 <reldred> Especially after I’ve been roasting in the hot aisle of a dc for six hours
09:19:25 <__abigail> fucking shit deals on the app this month fml
09:19:34 <will_marshall_> im looking forward to warmer weather so cold treats are back on the menu
09:20:12 <reldred> tomorrow shouldn’t be too bad, the other dc’s hot aisle isn’t as punitive near the three racks I’ve gotta tear apart
09:20:24 <reldred> Let’s see how badly dell/emc did assembling these ones 😭
09:22:02 <__abigail> I could borrow some ECC DDR4 and drives, they'd never know
09:22:15 <andythenorth> seems that it won't make Horse faster than my M4
09:23:04 <peter1138> Are you compiling Horse with a GPU?
09:23:25 <andythenorth> using a graphics API that's deprecated on macOS?
09:24:40 <andythenorth> how are people supposed to internet?
09:25:17 <andythenorth> I will get coffee I think
09:31:27 <will_marshall_> benchmarks are all fake and i don't trust them
09:36:32 <andythenorth> "synthetic" isn't 1:1 with "fake" :P
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09:56:39 <peter1138> Well. Hmm. I totally failed on staying on the bike over winter. It's nearly over now :o
09:59:32 <andythenorth> I failed at swimming over winter
10:07:31 <will_marshall_> i failed at bike and healthy_eating but i have taken up walking a dog so it's not all Ls
10:08:14 <reldred> well I weighed in at 95 on the dot today, so forty down from where I was about 14months ago.
10:08:28 <reldred> another fifteen/twenty to go
10:08:37 <will_marshall_> hell yeah that's incredible
10:09:15 <reldred> i should start riding more now that I have my bikes here
10:09:29 <acs121> ahyangyi: That's not the channel to do it
10:09:37 <acs121> Unless you seek attention from devs for no reason
10:14:51 <peter1138> Are you still arguing about something from yesterday or is that person's messages blocked from IRC?
10:24:00 <andythenorth> wasn't that the point originally?
10:27:03 <peter1138> Are those images for entertainment purposes only and not meant to present anything in game?
10:28:46 <reldred> automagically generated for the website header
10:28:52 <reldred> though that doesn't explain train whack 😛
10:30:24 <andythenorth> peter1138 I manually repainted every pixel
10:30:59 <andythenorth> ouch I'd nearly forgotten that thread :|
10:31:09 <andythenorth> it's like losing The Game
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10:34:54 <Xarick_> Hey guys, it's me. For some reason OpenTTD discord poofed from the list
10:39:07 <Xarick_> When I try to join it, I'm getting a "Whoops, unable to accept invite"
10:44:46 <mmtunligit> you were banned for one week for homophobia
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11:02:00 <Xarick_> what? are you kidding me? that must be a joke
11:02:25 <mmtunligit> you compared queer people to AI slop
11:04:34 <mmtunligit> youve been given a *lot* of leeway in this channel despite repeated requests for you to stop spamming, and there are people who have receipts of other times you have been homophobic. that you have been banned for *only* one week is us being
11:04:39 <Xarick_> how do you even take that as homophobic
11:04:52 <mmtunligit> would you like me to make it a paermanent ban
11:10:00 <Xarick_> I wanna see those receipts
11:11:54 <belajalilija> He’s not even denying it lmao
11:13:01 <Xarick_> oh you're turning this into a circus i see...
11:13:09 <mmtunligit> know that this moderation action was not taken based on those recipts
11:13:13 <mmtunligit> ok yeah youre gone for good
11:13:20 <__abigail> Xarick_: A very queer circus
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11:16:54 <belajalilija> Days since railtypes?
11:19:35 <reldred> let’s not start that again
11:20:15 <reldred> Let this channel get back to some level of decorum
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11:20:47 <kaiser_magg> whos homophobic here
11:20:52 <kaiser_magg> stop that or u make urself a new e-opp
11:22:22 <peter1138> I mean, that wasn't how I expected any yeeting to go.
11:22:35 <belajalilija> reldred: Just a little jokey joke
11:22:50 <belajalilija> kaiser_magg: No one now
11:24:02 <__abigail> reldred: I'd like to hear more
11:24:04 <mmtunligit> do you IRC folks have moderation tools on you end? or are we just relying on him bieng sufficently mad that he wont return
11:25:25 <peter1138> We moderate the IRC side.
11:25:37 <mmtunligit> good to know, thanks
11:26:42 <peter1138> So whilst coming back on IRC could technically be considered ban evasion, they weren't banned here. And coming back sort of educated them because Discord apparently doesn't tell (or more likely they closed and ignored a message.)
11:27:17 <mmtunligit> im almost certain they ignored a message
11:27:43 <peter1138> Wouldn't be the first time.
11:29:11 <belajalilija> I have a thought but i can’t words
11:30:14 <belajalilija> __abigail: But also that gif is going to give me headache
11:30:54 <belajalilija> How do you say like an alternative to straight man
11:31:04 <belajalilija> Referring to mmtunligit
11:31:33 <mmtunligit> queer lady? im very confused at what youre trying to do
11:31:43 <belajalilija> Like you’re the good cop
11:31:48 <belajalilija> But that doesn’t really work
11:31:59 <belajalilija> Because that implies I’m the bad cop
11:32:12 <mmtunligit> you can just say im playing the straight man its fine lol
11:32:12 <__abigail> belajalilija: Let's be real for a second
11:32:45 <__abigail> I am sorry but I cannot stop reading your username as mmmm tongue lick it
11:32:45 <mmtunligit> thats not a description of what i am its a description of the role im playing in a specific scenario
11:33:05 <belajalilija> __abigail: Okay it’s not just me
11:33:12 <mmtunligit> thats fine, at least youve screwed it up to actual words
11:33:19 <mmtunligit> most people jsut do a mush of sounds
11:33:37 <__abigail> mmtunligit: What the fuck else could it be
11:33:39 <mmtunligit> this is th eperlis of choosing your forever username in sixth grade and being bad at spelling
11:33:59 <__abigail> This makes even less sense
11:34:36 <mmtunligit> the first three stand for "map making team" i was gonna me minecraft maps with my friends, and we were gonna use cheats to do it, thus we were "not legitimate"
11:34:40 <belajalilija> mmtunligit: Oh i wasn’t worried about something like that, i believe that you know that I’m not with malice in that way, i was just wondering if there’s other words for the same thing
11:34:48 <mmtunligit> not that im aware of
11:35:04 <__abigail> belajalilija: Tramgenmer before WOKE
11:35:19 <__abigail> mmtunligit: Yeah I never would've guessed that in a million years
11:35:27 <mmtunligit> yeah no its literally impossible
11:35:39 <mmtunligit> but i was young and didnt think to capitalize or check spelling
11:35:46 <__abigail> I think the stupid thing is to keep it
11:35:51 <belajalilija> mmtunligit: I’m glad that i changed my Minecraft name years ago xd
11:35:58 <mmtunligit> its completely unique to me
11:36:15 <mmtunligit> im the only person on the entire internet who has any reason to use it ever
11:36:23 <__abigail> mmtunligit: So is `0b4f4286-ab34-4062-a384-82690d8630ce`
11:36:29 <mmtunligit> also idrc if people screw up the pronunciation
11:36:41 <mmtunligit> but its my little thing
11:37:37 <belajalilija> belajalilija: It was MCCreeperKiller
11:37:37 <belajalilija> Could only be worse had i written it like xXxMCCreeperKillerxXx
11:38:32 <belajalilija> mmtunligit: Same with my name, it’s technically meaningless
11:39:30 <mmtunligit> also keeping my name like this means i get to tell a fun story about my past every now and then
11:40:27 <peter1138> Of course, on IRC, we only see your Discord username, not your nickname.
11:41:10 <__abigail> So you don't know about my Big Naturals? 😔
11:41:58 <belajalilija> peter1138: For both of us it is the same
11:42:13 <belajalilija> __abigail: Just call yourself big naturals
11:42:56 <__abigail> The problem is that people IRL have SEEN the big naturals and thus a platform-wide username change is superfluous
11:47:18 <will_marshall_> peter1138: oh no... my doxx
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11:48:47 <will_marshall_> There's no way I can change the license on BaNaNaS after release, right?
11:48:55 <will_marshall_> I need to like, talk to someone.
11:49:07 <will_marshall_> (even worse, it should have been listed as NC-SA this whole time)
11:49:51 <brickblock19280> I don't think so but does it really matter?
11:50:12 <LordAro> in theory we can modify the bananas DB (the git repo) directly
11:50:28 <will_marshall_> I'm not asking you to and I've just realized that I'm not the only person who's made this mistake so it's probably nbd.
11:51:12 <emperorjake> It's not hard to see anyone's discord username lol, just click on their name
11:51:21 <will_marshall_> I know, it was a joke.
11:51:48 <LordAro> will_marshall_: well i say "we", you could make a PR just as easily
11:51:50 <emperorjake> You can change the license when uploading an update
11:51:51 <brickblock19280> I did upload gplv2 once instead of selecting it once or maybe it was someone else
11:52:15 <will_marshall_> Yeah I need to get the License right each time, it looks like a lot of people forget to do this judging by version histories.
11:52:56 <emperorjake> I always open a new tab showing the previous version so I get it right when I update
11:53:16 <LordAro> will_marshall_: improvements to the web ui always appreciated ;)
11:54:41 <eed_edward> what about reassigning newgrf to other GH account?
11:55:09 <emperorjake> That has been done in special circumstances
11:55:26 <LordAro> officially that requires an email to info@, iirc
11:55:35 <LordAro> i don't think we have a better process than that
11:57:29 <LordAro> but we could probably do something with github PRs and user approvals would serve the same purpose
11:58:09 <peter1138> github PR is probably difficult for the average person to do.
11:58:31 <eed_edward> easier is to create new issue 😄
11:58:46 <LordAro> yeah, first step is the issue
11:58:47 <peter1138> The repo doesn't support issues.
11:59:10 <LordAro> yeah, first step is to enable issues
11:59:39 <LordAro> probably with appropriate "no you almost certainly don't want this" templates
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12:16:22 <talltyler> We know people often don’t read templates… 🙂
12:18:24 <mmtunligit> anything that relies on the end user to read is a fools errand
12:18:36 <mmtunligit> this was true when i drove the bus and its true here
12:18:49 <mmtunligit> most people are simply completely oblivious to their surroundings
12:42:32 <talltyler> Thinking aloud. I generally release my projects as openly as possible, but the same way we have non-commercial open source licenses, I wish there was one for “humans can do whatever, but please don’t feed my work to an LLM or use it in your vibe-coding project”
12:43:22 <talltyler> Information wants to be free, etc., but I don’t want to feed the slop machine
12:44:50 <will_marshall_> Honestly, if you found that your code had been laundered via an LLM I think you'd have a solid claim of copyright infringement.
12:45:11 <will_marshall_> Given that the LLM is going to reproduce it without the license file attached, in violation of said license.
12:45:45 <will_marshall_> Doesn't stop people, I know. This is actually my key concern and it's why I put a blanket ban on LLM use in my team at $Dayjob
12:45:58 <will_marshall_> (at least, for generating code. You gotta write it all yourself)
12:46:11 <peter1138> Given the tricks they are pulling, it won't matter anyway. e.g. UK government proposing an exception for AI use.
12:46:27 <mmtunligit> if you feel strongly enough abotu it you could probably talk to a lawyer and have them write an additional clause to that effect, i dont think you could ban AI/LLM outright because people will always just find somethign else to call it, but if you define the mechanism by which these thigns work and say you dont want people suign commerically distributed tools of that nature on your work you might
12:46:27 <mmtunligit> be able to enforce some stuff
12:47:04 <talltyler> I don’t care enough to raise a stink, even here, it’s just… sigh.
12:47:08 <will_marshall_> talltyler: That projet does give me the ick, personally.
12:47:29 <mmtunligit> i add "commericaly distributed" because i think if someone has written their own LLM tool its fair game
12:47:57 <will_marshall_> I think CC BY-SA-NC is as good a copyleft license as you can hope for.
12:48:50 <mmtunligit> you could talk to the person directly and talk about how it makes you feel, if theyre reasonable they might take it down, or only use for personal use
12:49:29 <mmtunligit> seems like worst that would happen from that is the current situation remains, which si something you seem fine(tm) with
12:50:04 <will_marshall_> The best part of a CC license is that it doesn't stop me as the original creator from reaching out across the internet and telling someone that they suck, I hate them and I hope they slip on a banana peel.
12:50:13 <belajalilija> talltyler: I’d love this
12:50:16 <will_marshall_> I just can't stop them frop carrying on as they were.
12:50:18 <peter1138> talltyler, too late.
12:51:04 <will_marshall_> The "feeding into an LLM" part is at least solvable - give your project a Very Sexy name and hope that the crappy LLM tries to censor it.
12:51:31 <mmtunligit> ascii boobs in the comments to keep ai from using it
12:51:38 <mmtunligit> truly we are using 100% of the brain
12:52:03 <will_marshall_> all diagrams rendered as ASCII art because LLMs simply cannot.
12:56:26 <_jgr_> I expect that in a few years the novelty factor for LLMs everywhere will have worn off
12:57:36 <_jgr_> In the meantime, there's not a lot that can be done when the hype is so high
12:57:39 <andythenorth> like copy-paste is no longer a novelty
12:58:00 <andythenorth> and multi-tasking desktop OS
12:59:06 <belajalilija> Feels like this all over again
12:59:57 <__abigail> _jgr_: Looking forward to the ONE MILLION BILLION DOLLARS for slop datacenters being written off as losses
13:00:39 <andythenorth> someone got paid for operating yellow iron though
13:01:09 <andythenorth> also was Bowie right? ^^
13:01:21 <andythenorth> I think the medium mostly collapsed
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13:05:32 <belajalilija> I feel he was right
13:05:57 <belajalilija> The internet occupies so much of life now
14:01:05 <peter1138> Hmm, add configuration for UI changes?
14:01:31 <peter1138> Is "default on" still forcing things on players?
14:03:08 <peter1138> Rebasing 14842. Probably will upset someone.
14:03:11 <talltyler> I have stopped reading forums and Reddit for my day job game, and it has improved my life significantly. I would suggest the same for OpenTTD (Reddit especially, I do skim TT-Forums occasionally)
14:03:47 <talltyler> I actually blocked my employer’s forum using a child safety browser plugin, it was that bad for my mental health 🙂
14:04:21 <peter1138> So filterable dropdowns are not very useful if nobody knows they are filterable.
14:04:45 <andythenorth> it's nice to see that players are real and value the game
14:05:48 <andythenorth> the lack of filter...the tendency for the least useful behaviour to be the loudest...the fact that we're not obliged to consult or take on feedback....
14:06:20 <andythenorth> if it's a paid product....then feedback starts to matter
14:06:52 <andythenorth> and my day job is literally about involving users in the service they receive, but that's to do with legal obligation
14:07:10 <peter1138> Hmm, railtype dropdown + text filter + traditional behaviour is... sort of awkawrd.
14:07:27 <peter1138> You can use the filter while holding the mouse button down
14:07:49 <peter1138> But perhaps it should not show the filter if it's not going to stay open by itself.
14:08:28 <mmtunligit> the way i envisoned that was that if you start usign the filter then it goes to the new behvior where it sticks open
14:09:39 <peter1138> Hmm, yeah, you could drag-select the filter itself.
14:09:39 <mmtunligit> perhaps "esc" could not just clear the filter but close the dropdown as well in that case
14:16:35 <will_marshall_> talltyler: I'm approaching you clutching my pet JIRA ticket as we speak, demanding to know why you don't take action.
14:17:04 * LordAro heats up will_marshall_'s spacebar
14:17:21 <peter1138> lol as if they make tickets and don't just assume that because they mentioned something briefly in conversation it'll get done.
14:17:48 <will_marshall_> peter1138: Once, on a facebook group that's members only.
14:17:54 <will_marshall_> That's what a bug report is!
14:18:25 <peter1138> Hmm, "selecting" the filter sort of works, but there's no feedback that you are selecting or, or that it's been selected.
14:20:53 <jfkuayue> My father repost to me a video saying "AI is the gift by God to Chinese people"... and plenty of people really think like that
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14:22:15 <andythenorth> was that part of the conversation we were having?
14:22:20 <andythenorth> or did it add to it?
14:23:09 <jfkuayue> related to something I said yesterday and some different reactions
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14:37:12 <mmtunligit> peter1138: perhaps only show the cursor if it has been selected? im not familiar enough with the editbox code to know if this is possible though
14:41:09 <will_marshall_> speaking of filters for selection lists... there's the filter list in the new vehicle window - any objection to the addition of a hotkey to focus that box (in the most recently interacted with window?), personally I find hunting the mouse for the text input line a bit fiddly
14:43:43 <will_marshall_> i'm gonna go scowl at the source code
14:45:12 <will_marshall_> what the hell it does and it's 'F'
14:45:23 <talltyler> Users don’t open Jira tickets, but I work directly with beta testers who think Jira tickets are a to-do list for developers. Lots of tickets like “this needs to be fixed before release or players will complain”
14:45:23 <talltyler> Really an unhelpful way to pressure me 🙁
14:45:51 <will_marshall_> If I speak further I will get in so, so much trouble with my boss.
14:46:15 <will_marshall_> Let me just say that those beta testers were a lot more annoying in 2017.
14:46:52 <talltyler> Plot twist we work on the same game and don’t realize it
14:47:06 <will_marshall_> I know, I'm just not acknowledging it because it's weird.
14:47:14 <talltyler> 2017 was forever ago though
14:47:26 <will_marshall_> Peep the mutual server list. I'm old.
14:47:49 <andythenorth> coincidences are weird
14:47:51 <talltyler> lol, I’m always surprised there’s not more overlap
14:48:21 <peter1138> > In space, no-one can hear you scream.
14:48:31 <peter1138> > On IRC, no-one can see what other servers you're on.
14:48:58 <will_marshall_> Apols to the IRC crowd I promise to get an IRC client so I can see how badly my messages are being mangled by the bridge and start tuning them to suit.
14:49:12 <peter1138> So yeah, the behaviour works, but the interaction/feedback is all... mush.
14:50:57 <peter1138> Hiding it also works, and doesn't introduce weird behaviour.
14:55:53 <peter1138> Turn the reddit off?
14:56:09 <andythenorth> it's a good point
14:56:30 <andythenorth> "dopamine is bad for you"
14:56:45 <andythenorth> probably isn't actually, but hitting refresh for it is
15:13:44 <peter1138> Maybe "disable traditional toolbar button behaviour to allow filtering" is fine.
15:13:58 <mmtunligit> oh yeah thats good
15:14:37 <mmtunligit> i do like the old behvior but im adjusting, and if it means i get to filter the dropdowns then thats just an extra reason to learn
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15:37:25 <belajalilija> Ahh so this is to make looking for things like railtypes easier?
15:40:03 <talltyler> Yes, although when testing I’ve also found it useful for the cargo dropdown when buying wagons with FIRS Steeltown or AXIS
15:45:27 <andythenorth> so on exclusive preview is the choice now "all of these" xor "none of these"?
15:46:09 <talltyler> No, you still pick individually
15:46:30 <talltyler> It’s just one window that lets you compare what you’ve been offered instead of having to choose each one before seeing the next
15:47:06 <andythenorth> but the implementation is that clicking 'no' closes all the offers
15:47:51 <andythenorth> "beta testers" :)
15:49:41 <andythenorth> no mask layer :P
15:50:32 <andythenorth> this irc client posts messages out of order sometimes
15:51:35 <peter1138> Hmm, I must have broken it, No is only meant to close the one you're looking at.
15:59:56 <talltyler> Maybe I will play Steeltown next 🙂
16:03:55 <peter1138> Ok, I see I missed some stuff when changing the window. Hmm.
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18:55:49 <andythenorth> bad sprite currently
19:53:42 <talltyler> Bulldozer sprite when they're loaded with Engineering Supplies? 😄
19:59:12 <talltyler> Glad to see #14842 merged, I think it's an excellent UI addition 🙂
20:01:38 <eed_edward> template replacement just like in jgrpp - would it be implemented in vanilla client?
20:03:10 <talltyler> “Just like” maybe not, I think it’s a bit confusing to use.
20:03:49 <mmtunligit> should do consists first
20:06:07 <talltyler> Mhm, I was thinking that combining shared orders and groups into lines would be a good place for trains templates to live
20:09:16 <peter1138> Hmm, I started work on making a "lines" gui, combining with groups is a bit awkward because groups don't have to be a 1:1 mapping.
20:12:19 <mmtunligit> i think groups should be seperate to "lines", which should probably be predicated on shared orders (though ideally you could create a line and not have any vehicles assigned to it)
20:13:13 <talltyler> Yeah. My thinking is that you’d actually keep groups, but shared orders quasi-groups would become lines. Groups could contain multiple lines and be nested as they are now.
20:17:04 <peter1138> Add: Lines window to manage order lists outside of vehicles.
20:17:07 <peter1138> Wonder how far I got.
20:17:13 <peter1138> Probably doesn't build.
20:18:12 <talltyler> “I have a patch for that” strikes again 😄
20:19:21 <mmtunligit> if were managing order lits outside of vehicles can we do UI improvements too? id love to be able to hide the details of the order ala engine variants, jus thave a list of locations/ conditionals or something like that
20:19:44 <mmtunligit> i dont have very evolved concepts, maybe i should draw something
20:19:52 <mmtunligit> code something up too
20:23:10 <mmtunligit> man i need to get back to writing those unit tests
20:25:59 <peter1138> Let's go with "very preliminary work"
20:26:21 <peter1138> Nothing useful, nothing much lost if I delete it.
20:28:59 <andythenorth> I had an idea once for templates
20:29:03 <andythenorth> I've forgotten it
20:29:10 <andythenorth> oh autoreplace, but with predicates and rules
20:29:32 <andythenorth> "replace each vehicle x with quantity n of vehicle y"
20:30:14 <goddess_ishtar> peter1138: that sounds pretty useful actually
20:31:11 <will_marshall_> Would a "lines" window be more or less a second set of Vehicle Groups, automatically generated whenever orders are changed/shared?
20:31:38 <will_marshall_> Just the interface guides you towards managing the shared orders rather than the individual vehicles assigned to the shared orders?
20:31:56 <goddess_ishtar> andythenorth: honestly, out of all of the fancy JGRPP features I miss when testing vanilla, the one I actually miss the most is template replacement
20:34:50 <goddess_ishtar> will_marshall_: the UI for grouping by shared orders is a bit clumsy so that would be nice
20:34:58 <andythenorth> the implementation of template replacement confused me
20:35:02 <andythenorth> but I am easily confused
20:35:27 <goddess_ishtar> the UI is jank
20:35:33 <goddess_ishtar> the functionality is great, though
20:36:07 <peter1138> Lines is whatever we make it, but the premise is to move the focus of orders out of "per vehicle" and to "per line". Internally this is actually not a super massive change, as all orders are part of a OrderList, and vehicles just share an OrderList.
20:36:30 <goddess_ishtar> "oh, my passenger trains need an extra mail van" is a minor change which is completely impossible in vanilla without ordering every single locomotive to a depot and manually adding another one
20:36:43 <andythenorth> shared orders is mysterious to new players
20:36:56 <eed_edward> Yeah, for all three players
20:37:01 <andythenorth> as an experienced player I like that there's no real UI for it
20:37:16 <reldred> This is nice, I like this. Also makes it consistent with other games around.
20:37:25 <andythenorth> not even sure how
20:37:37 <andythenorth> I made "New" but it disappeared after I made it
20:38:12 <goddess_ishtar> yeah the template replacement GUI really is awful
20:38:15 <andythenorth> but then it just disappears
20:38:21 <andythenorth> when I close the window
20:38:36 <andythenorth> dunno, I'm too thick for most of this stuff
20:40:13 <reldred> I didn’t think it was that bad
20:40:58 <mmtunligit> ive only touched it once and it was quite confusing
20:41:40 <peter1138> Anyway, I think Lines could end up similar to the groups window but with two modes.
20:42:20 <peter1138> List on the left is individual order lists, with a filter, scrollbar, etc.
20:42:55 <peter1138> Panel on the right, could have two tabs, one to list/manage the orders in the selected order list, and the other to show the vehicles in it.
20:43:08 <peter1138> But obviously I've not put any effort into it.
20:43:29 <mmtunligit> thats a good concept
20:45:05 <goddess_ishtar> how would the lines be named?
20:45:36 <peter1138> default could be based on the stations it goes it, then custom names?
20:47:01 <mmtunligit> how to detect line endpoints though, or does it just list all the stations
20:47:46 <mmtunligit> and not to mention circular lines or orderlists with wildly diverging conditionals
20:47:53 <peter1138> Doesn't need to be too complex. If the default doesn't match what you want you just change it.
20:48:37 <mmtunligit> i suspect it will get pitchforks regardless because "why doenst the default make sense to ME"
20:52:48 <andythenorth> newgrf line badges
20:52:56 <andythenorth> in xml, with voxels
20:52:57 <goddess_ishtar> mmtunligit: we should start using mind-reading technology to make customized builds for every player
20:53:00 <andythenorth> and line sound effects
20:53:32 <mmtunligit> goddess_ishtar: this is what LLMs were build for
20:54:09 <goddess_ishtar> last I checked those couldn't read minds
20:54:10 <mmtunligit> "turntable, generate me a sensible default for my line names"
20:54:34 <mmtunligit> they can yell at the game instead of the devs
20:54:59 <goddess_ishtar> mmtunligit: `I'm sorry, but as a large language model developed for OpenTTD, I am not capable of fulfilling that request.`
20:55:19 <mmtunligit> f@#$!!&*#ng machine!
20:56:34 <goddess_ishtar> > *I really hate this damn machine;
20:56:34 <goddess_ishtar> > I wish that they would sell it.
20:56:34 <goddess_ishtar> > It never does quite what I want,
20:56:34 <goddess_ishtar> > but only what I tell it.*
21:01:03 <eed_edward> does NFO is still suitable for further releases? are there plans to change it into something more fancy?
21:01:44 <goddess_ishtar> eed_edward: for nearly all usecases you should be using NML
21:01:57 <mmtunligit> anything you can do in NFO you can do in NML, and you should be writing NML
21:02:17 <mmtunligit> or pnml or one of the other variants that complies to nml that you can compile to nfo
21:02:18 <goddess_ishtar> you *can* still code in NFO, and you still have to for niche things (like making bridge sets) but for the most part why would you want to
21:02:31 <will_marshall_> NFO is only useful if you need to be open source but you don't want anyone to be able to read it 😄
21:02:37 <andythenorth> and for being PikkaBird
21:02:57 <andythenorth> Horse grf is compiled from nfo
21:03:00 <goddess_ishtar> will_marshall_: "modify this you filthy casual"
21:03:42 <goddess_ishtar> ~~*real* devs use horrifying templated Python which transpiles to NML~~
21:04:09 <will_marshall_> REAL devs use timberwolf's entirely home-grown templating system, which is nutty but pretty capable once you wrap your head around it.
21:04:40 <goddess_ishtar> honestly I've spent way more time trying to get my template system to work than actually working on the code in-game
21:04:51 <mmtunligit> i mean i did have to (have someone smarter than me) figure out some compile options form first principles when doing a pallette swap on a grf a few months back that was Fun
21:05:02 <mmtunligit> pnml is greaaaaaat
21:05:22 <goddess_ishtar> .pnml isn't standardized at all
21:05:27 <goddess_ishtar> that's why it sucks so hard
21:05:38 <goddess_ishtar> it just means *some* form of make script or templating is in use
21:05:48 <talltyler> I just have a Python script that concatenates all my NML sub-files into one big file and then runs NMLC 🙂
21:06:24 <goddess_ishtar> talltyler: yeah I took your script for ITI and sliced it inside out and filled its guts with a Jinja templating system
21:06:47 <talltyler> You are not the first to use it, I’m glad it’s helpful to people 🙂
21:07:23 <reldred> goddess_ishtar: Which, apart from my incredibly smooth brain, is one of the reasons I don’t bother. I do basic splicing of nml’s using gcc and that’s about it.
21:07:53 <goddess_ishtar> my set is of sufficient size that templating was pretty much necessary to develop it in a timely manner at all
21:07:59 <reldred> At some point you have to just sit down and do the work
21:08:01 <goddess_ishtar> it still sucks to work on, though
21:12:35 <mmtunligit> hmmm, 15193 needs some work, randomize button doesnt get properly set if a different tool is selected
21:42:16 <_glx_> mmtunligit: for most things yes, but there are still some stuff not available in nml
21:42:56 <mmtunligit> learn something new every day
21:43:10 <_glx_> like you can't do bridges in nml IIRC
21:43:53 <mmtunligit> no one got around to it or is ti a werid problem to solve for some reason?
21:51:09 <jfkuayue> We had a problem in grf development
21:51:19 <jfkuayue> The grf is developed by multiple people
21:52:00 <jfkuayue> Some of them with not so good english
21:57:08 <jfkuayue> In the lng part of the grf, english and simplified chinese are directly provided by developers, but some developers tend to have typos in strings `STR_VARIETY_AVAILABILITY will be like STR_VERITY_AVAILABILITY` for example, and this sometimes makes hard-to-find compiling errors, since there are nml files, english lng, simplified chinese lng, that will use the same string
21:59:04 <jfkuayue> And currently, the way of development is having a CSV file to store all language strings, to let the position of strings "match"
21:59:42 <jfkuayue> This makes it extra hard when an external person wanting to add a korean translation
22:04:09 <andythenorth> find and replace though?
22:04:26 <_glx_> add a column in csv for new language, easy
22:05:13 <jfkuayue> But this means external people need to "learn the strange way we develop"
22:05:49 <andythenorth> translations are a pain in the ass
22:06:00 <andythenorth> one option is "don't"
22:06:07 <_glx_> it's easy to work with csv, any excel like tool can do it
22:06:34 <_glx_> then the tooling for compilation will handle
22:06:53 <reldred> Make a contributing.md that runs through how your shit works, and then watch as nobody reads it.
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22:09:37 <rito12_51026> Develop system for third party grf translations?
22:10:47 <eed_edward> translations as newgrfs!
22:10:52 <andythenorth> if only there was a plan for that
22:11:28 <rito12_51026> Use same grfid but add new act?
22:22:22 <goddess_ishtar> reldred: hahahahaha
22:22:22 <goddess_ishtar> >implying anyone actually documents their esoteric shit
22:22:29 <_glx_> nml can do more stuff with strings than basic nfo strings
22:22:52 <_glx_> like an nfo string can be composed from different nml strings
22:38:02 <peter1138> Okay, but how deep do I have to mine to find the best diamond and iron veins?
22:50:13 <jfkuayue> Isnt it 11 anymore??
22:50:33 <mmtunligit> not since they added deepslate
22:50:43 <mmtunligit> thatslike at least 5 years ago at this point
22:55:01 <reldred> And you can find a lot of surface iron in mountain ranges at high Z values,
23:03:44 <peter1138> And you can also have beds of different colours, but only red is correct.
23:04:20 <mmtunligit> i refuse to make a non red bed
23:10:04 <talltyler> Upgrading from your first white bed to the correct red one is when you really start to find stability
23:12:36 <telumendur> Beds? Back in *my* days, we didn't even have beds... and we liked it!
23:14:33 <mmtunligit> i remember those days
23:15:31 <reldred> We had a #tycoon Minecraft instance at one point, back when it was that web browser sandbox
23:16:01 <belajalilija> Back before the end, stone bricks, repeaters, different wood types, stackable food, sprinting, the hunger bar, being able to build fences on fences
23:17:16 <goddess_ishtar> telumendur: back in my day we used crying obsidian
23:17:28 <mmtunligit> ive still got my very first save, got the weird fucked up trees from when thet added different types but forgot to fix the leaf changeover to be consistent
23:19:22 <peter1138> Yeah, I wrote a classic server that was quite successful for a couple of years.
23:19:27 <_jgr_> I never realised that beds could be different colours in recent versions
23:20:15 <talltyler> Wait until you learn that glass can be different colours
23:21:55 <reldred> I’ve dabbled with running modded Minecraft servers over the years
23:23:08 <_jgr_> My local install is still on 1.8.9 it seems
23:23:31 <mmtunligit> oh that is an acient version at this point lol
23:23:42 <mmtunligit> one past the standardized "old version" too
23:25:07 <belajalilija> We all need to go back to beta 1,7,3
23:25:31 <belajalilija> That’s when i bought Minecraft and stopped using the cracked version
23:28:40 <goddess_ishtar> mmtunligit: is that not 1.7.10?
23:28:56 <mmtunligit> goddess_ishtar: i thought it was 1.7.9
23:29:23 <goddess_ishtar> in any case, I think that was really the high water mark for modding
23:30:12 <belajalilija> Really need to add terracotta roof tiles
23:30:23 <belajalilija> And coloured light
23:31:17 <__abigail> I just woke up but I need to mention that when I bought the game I paid €20 which was $20.49
23:32:15 <belajalilija> Now it would be like $393.939.393,93
23:52:32 <_glx_> __abigail: Minecraft premium account
23:58:35 <peter1138> The lobster was big on it, IIRC.
continue to next day ⏵
