IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2025-12-02
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13:43:45 <_glx_> annoying it actually upgrade `actions/checkout` from v4 to v6, but still says v4 to v5
13:44:25 <peter1138> Too much fucking AI in that.
13:45:02 <peter1138> Hmm, that might just be the changelogs from the things that are updated.
13:45:18 <peter1138> Argh, so annoying that people go along with the shit.
13:49:36 <pickpacket> LordAro: I have today today. That's my excuse for being quiet
13:50:00 <peter1138> I have today tomorrow. Please hold.
13:51:28 <peter1138> talltyler, sometimes I just want to see pictures :)
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13:55:32 <pickpacket> wetlands? I didn't know there are wetlands in the game 🤔
13:56:17 <peter1138> Farming in wetlands is, of course, possible, but not good for variety...
13:56:34 <peter1138> What's next, farms building irrigation systems?
13:58:14 <talltyler> peter1138: Edited my comment to include a comparison of very smooth/very flat.
13:59:28 <rito12_51026> 👀 || _an emoji of two googly eyes in response to irrigation system_ ||
13:59:49 <peter1138> Hmm, it does have a minor effect, less branches joining up.
14:01:08 <talltyler> Someday™ when Someone™ gets inspired to do custom fields for industries, we could have rice paddies with irrigation 😄
14:01:26 <peter1138> I wonder if it's desirable to also allow springs on "plains", and if they don't actually go anywhere it can just feed into wetlands.
14:01:31 <pickpacket> do I need to update my Tea Tea Deluxe NewGRF to not build stuff on wetlands?
14:01:46 <peter1138> Well, probably not.
14:02:52 <talltyler> Screenshot from the screenshots channel to show the IRC people, JP+ has some very nice rice field objects 😄
14:03:51 <peter1138> Yeah but objects are boringh.
14:03:56 <kuhnovic> Nice, it almost looks like a different game
14:04:08 <pickpacket> peter1138: unless they're huge cats
14:04:25 * pickpacket is getting a Maine Coon
14:04:28 <talltyler> pickpacket: Wetlands are about half river tiles, so industries won't build there because they won't fit
14:04:57 <peter1138> Like, if those were more like industries, automatically placed instead of manual... but not necessarily producing anything because FIRS Steel Town probably just have much use for rice...
14:05:44 <peter1138> Hmm, automata objects that can randomly add extra sections based on callbacks...
14:07:17 <talltyler> Objects can already be placed automatically, but they can only be rectangular, and trying to cluster them together does not work since the game doesn't try hard enough to place them. I tried this a few years ago with swamps as objects.
14:07:59 <talltyler> I did make a Rainforest Ruins GRF that adds jungle temples and an Indiana Jones minigame of sorts 😛
14:09:30 <talltyler> Use the tile inspector tool to read the clues in the object names, then build the right number of university objects to make the temple where the treasure is buried flash a dynamite icon. Bulldoze it to find the treasure! 😄
14:09:55 <talltyler> Uh, spoilers, I guess
14:12:49 <talltyler> I actually see a lot of potential for custom industry fields, possibly as industry tiles that can receive cargo, and possibly can be demolished. Not just as actual fields -- a mine could have excavated areas, a factory could have a yard of stored materials, a shopping mall could be surrounded by parking lots...
14:13:21 <talltyler> Objects that have the similar possibilities for extra sections or clusters would be very nice as well.
14:15:16 <peter1138> talltyler, automatically only on map generation, right?
14:16:38 <peter1138> By "automata" I mean give existing objects the ability to add more objects nearby, like industries do with fields.
14:16:56 <peter1138> But also custom fields too.
14:25:39 <xarick> Copilot's BPlusTree passed regression!
14:25:57 <xarick> now testing is it slow?
14:35:24 <talltyler> Object spec only builds them during map generation, yeah.
14:42:45 <kaji_kaede> talltyler: Oh gosh. 👀
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14:58:49 <xarick> Copilot's BPlusTree, i think GPT-5? with some forced Think Deeper
15:00:31 <_glx_> don't forget you are expected to understand the code
15:00:54 <xarick> i mean, copilot really tried to teach me
15:01:01 <xarick> but i still don't understand it fully
15:04:52 <xarick> i'm still not done yet
15:05:07 <xarick> i have some suspicious about std::swap
15:05:25 <xarick> or rather... BPlusTree::swap
15:09:03 <xarick> and i didn't make a BPlusTree substitute for std::set
15:10:16 <kaji_kaede> _glx_: I think we're out of luck if we're ever expecting that here.
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15:34:09 <_zephyris> I like the river spring idea, but may need some river number tweaks
15:34:27 <kuhnovic> So you assume that copilot provided you with some functional code, which you are now performance testing. And you don't even know if it does the right thing.
15:37:19 <talltyler> Yeah, I could use some suggestions for getting the river count back up. Right now all I've got is checking the map gen flatness setting, but that does nothing for heightmaps. 🙂
15:37:47 <talltyler> I suppose I could check the maximum map height, which is sort of a surrogate for flatness?
15:40:43 <peter1138> Too many variables to be honest, as long with heightmaps.
15:42:18 <peter1138> So maybe instead of searching for suitable spring locations, it could make suitable spring locations somehow?
15:42:42 <peter1138> Whether that fixes anything... dunno.
15:43:29 <peter1138> Less springs = less rivers = less wetlands = less eyecandy.
15:46:33 <kuhnovic> Another approach would be to generate a whole bunch of spring locations and sort them based on their suitable-ness-score, and then pick the top X entries.
15:46:58 <talltyler> The main goal was to keep rivers from spawning on mountain tops, which just looks silly. My previous iteration just does that, but it feels a bit "rip out code to suit my own tastes"
15:46:58 <talltyler> (this doesn't work on flat maps, would be easy to adapt but I haven't done it yet)
15:50:40 <kuhnovic> Another idea: only create river tiles below a certain elevation. Follow the path from start to end but just don't start building them if the spring sits too high.
15:51:24 <talltyler> You could do more detailed checks if ranking possible start locations, but that does guarantee you try the maximum number of rivers each time you generate a map.
15:51:38 <talltyler> kuhnovic: This is exactly what my previous attempt linked above does, it also works 🙂
15:51:53 <_glx_> hmm really looks like the PR description is full AI
15:55:15 <talltyler> Tutorial text is also AI, but that's easy to rewrite if the code is written by a human and actually works
15:56:09 <_glx_> and also code itself I think
15:58:30 <talltyler> I'm amazed that it built enough to take screenshots
15:58:31 <_glx_> and only the final merge commit is attributed to PR owner
16:00:25 <_zephyris> talltyler: No smart ideas from me right now, I'll ponder though
16:00:25 <talltyler> ClaireCoder90 made the other commits, possibly the CLAIRE AI Engine
16:01:42 <talltyler> Okay, I'll close the PR and explain why, unless someone else would like to
16:05:31 <_glx_> funny how I can imagine the instructions for each commit 🙂
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16:06:24 <_glx_> one being "translate the comments"
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16:09:46 <_zephyris> Worth lifting any ideas from it? Not sure, except for using embedded GUI icons in the text.
16:10:47 <LordAro> mm, basically a hardcoded storybook
16:11:41 <_zephyris> Not much more than a readme.md with a 'do not show again'
16:12:07 <_zephyris> (Which isn't a bad idea, especially if GUI icons can be embedded)
16:12:28 <_glx_> at least the tutorial GS reacts to player actions
16:13:29 <kaji_kaede> _zephyris: It'd have to be doing much new first.
16:14:00 <_glx_> might be a better option to include tutorial save/scenario and corresponding GS/AI into openttd
16:14:58 <kaji_kaede> _glx_: The existing tutorial is unfinished - lacking the most important element, trains.
16:15:21 <_glx_> anybody could improve it
16:15:37 <kaji_kaede> anybody who can stomach working with squirrel*
16:15:39 <_glx_> even easier if it means PR to openttd directly
16:15:44 <talltyler> Yes, it also needs updating to use Storybook instead of creating its own Storybook-ish windows
16:17:24 <kaji_kaede> I'd be glad if someone *did* improve it. It's not my favourite approach to a tutorial, but anything finished is a step up over the bugger-all we have now.
16:19:14 <talltyler> If anybody finds this “someone” you mention, let us know, they’ve been slacking off and not developing all the features I want! 😛
16:19:51 <kaji_kaede> *unfortunately I don't think the John Somebody we're looking for is real.*
16:20:22 <kaji_kaede> ~~clearly we just need to support C++ as a scripting language too~~
16:27:43 <alfagamma7> kaji_kaede: Cython?
16:28:37 <LordAro> don't make me dig out the commit that removed the C++ "plugins"
16:31:55 <_glx_> yeah it's a hidden script
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16:32:19 <_glx_> you need the corresponding save/scenario
16:34:16 <_zephyris> Hehe, already thrown off by the new toolbar menu behavior
16:36:56 <_glx_> it's not bad for something written more than 10 years ago 🙂
16:41:38 <_zephyris> Could be refined a bit, but pretty much does everything... I suppose trying to direct signal placement is the big challenge for trains...
16:47:18 <_zephyris> talltyler: You are very polite 🙂
17:08:26 <talltyler> _zephyris: No point driving off new potential contributors by being rude 🙂
17:11:22 <Borg> rito12_51026: Lua? never!
17:11:35 <Borg> I liked Lua in past.. because its very lightweight.. ansi C...
17:11:53 <Borg> but I had break from Lua coding. and when I came back... those pesky tables pissed me off again
17:12:21 <Borg> so I decided to dump Lua... I have Ruby. if I need embedded stuff I have MRuby..
17:12:28 <Borg> there is also Squirell :) with I like
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17:14:22 <notluke2578> lua? i barely know her!
17:19:54 <_zephyris> Having poked @glx's tute, that seems like a really solid foundation. I'd streamline some text, and it'd be nice to have icons displayed in the GS windows, but overall nice...
17:20:53 <_zephyris> Seeing download instructions in-game is kinda funny
17:21:36 <_zephyris> A readme which has "building road", "building rail", etc. would be more useful in-game!
17:22:14 <_zephyris> "How to play.md" Much lighter touch than a tute, but alt idea
17:35:32 <_zephyris> Image embed in .md...
17:35:57 <talltyler> Image embed in Storybook would be helpful for the tutorial, if we go the GS route
17:37:24 <rito12_51026> Borg I just have sentiment for lua as I started my journey from it.
18:04:44 <andythenorth> is storybook now a web browser? 👀
18:10:37 <Borg> rito12_51026: well.. if Lua had proper Arrays w/ index from 0 and keep Tables.. it would be great..
18:10:53 <Borg> also.. ~= is not bueno... why different.. like everyone else uses !=
18:11:15 <Borg> but.. its game over for me :)
18:12:07 <Borg> hah.. I introduced Chemicals cargo.. and its great. but I also curse myself for idea [;
18:23:53 <peter1138> talltyler, we have the "icons as text" PR, but...
18:24:13 <peter1138> There was a suggestion to add toolbar icons as an option.
18:24:40 <_glx_> GS have a highlight feature
18:28:01 <peter1138> Yes it does, but having icons breaks up a wall-of-text.
18:29:08 <_zephyris> Double info, always useful.
18:29:19 <Borg> like good text and colors are not enough
18:29:33 <Borg> I even remove sprites from stations cargo info.. because it made text not clear to read
18:30:21 <LordAro> Borg: constructive criticism requires using better words
18:30:48 <Borg> LordAro: big fan of CoC? or what?
18:30:55 <Borg> stupid is not offensive..
18:31:32 <Rubidium> something completely different, what is required for a nml release? Just merging #399 (changelog) and then a tag like OpenTTD?
18:37:14 <peter1138> The bridge pillar/station bridge height stuff got merged.
18:43:49 <talltyler> Interesting interview 🙂
18:47:02 <peter1138> talltyler, subtitles in OpenTTD Sans.
18:56:44 <peter1138> So, text-based adventure-game version of OpenTTD?
19:03:22 <mmtunligit> talltyler: wow, that was actually really cool! i thought it interstaing that he says he basically just took hwo he builds in the game himself and turned it into an algorithm
19:07:40 <Borg> peter1138: Code of Conduct or whatever this shit is named these days..
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19:10:51 <peter1138> Well, it is easy for those sorts of people to out themselves.
19:12:31 <peter1138> I guess I still need to work on the badges PR.
19:12:44 <peter1138> Hmm, it didn't build.
19:14:14 <peter1138> Projects that feel the need to have CoC are entitled to do so. Generally CoC won't have anything too onerous in them, so if you object to them, that is telling on yourself.
19:15:29 <Borg> heh.. yeah. right.. people easly take stuff personally today... call sth stupid... and people get offended.. like you call names..
19:31:08 * Rubidium wonders whether Borg got offended by LordAro's eloquent word choice. Though I guess the underlying question LordAro had was: why was it a stupid idea?
19:32:24 <peter1138> Bloody hell GitHub is so slow these days.
19:32:47 <Rubidium> I reckon something along the lines of "I think it was a stupid idea because it adds unneeded clutter" would not have triggered LordAro's comment. Now we simply do not know, so we cannot even try to make the implementation less stupid
19:33:18 <Rubidium> yeah, releasing nml took a really long time :(
19:34:55 <xarick> badges are like emojis for openttd
19:44:37 <xarick> talltyler: woah, as I suspected. Hog doesn't wait for a pathfind result, it just builds towards a destination. What's still surprising to me is how effective that method is. It has everything to go wrong.
19:46:20 <xarick> he mastered the art of terraforming along the way
19:46:32 <xarick> so, i guess that's a huge advantage I'm unable to tackle
19:47:13 <andythenorth> I’m not logged in to GH or I’d comment there - grf cargos have multiple (tedious but necessary) lang strings. Badges _could_ do the same, if we really need plural categories?
19:49:45 <peter1138> There's also cases for singular plural in some languages. cases are different from gender, but it'll be confusing.
19:51:05 <peter1138> Some language files use both gender and case for genders, so that's fun.
19:53:16 <rito12_51026> So it should introduce a `{P=n}` syntax instead, where n is a number in range based on the `##plural` macro?
19:56:49 <rito12_51026> rito12_51026: However, that wouldn't make sense for some languages
20:00:57 <peter1138> No, don't go adding things like that... yet.
20:02:49 <peter1138> My comment on the PR is to say "this might be an issue", I don't mean it's necessarily wrong. Others might have more thoughts.
20:06:38 <andythenorth> The issue can largely be circumvented in English using badge:filter value
20:06:50 <andythenorth> Colon defeats plural
20:12:22 <peter1138> But using an equals symbol may look out of place.
20:13:28 <rito12_51026> Maybe we should also use ^ instead of and, then?
20:26:19 <Rubidium> I'd advise against that one... mostly due to the 'or'-behaviour in most programming languages
20:26:26 <peter1138> In what system does "^" mean "and"?
20:28:42 <Rubidium> true, but who's going to find the correct character when there's a character that looks just like it?
20:35:46 <peter1138> M4 Mac Mini for £499?
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20:37:31 <rito12_51026> <> ∧ () for ranges
20:44:27 <michi_cc[d]> Poor peter, the unicode characters hot him :p
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20:51:33 <andythenorth> his mac mini probably crashed
20:57:57 <Borg> Rubidium: because it makes text at stations less readable.. that sprite cargo bar gives no additional usefull info (numbers are better)
20:58:39 <Borg> I dont remember if that stuff was in orginal TTD or not tho..
21:03:12 <Rubidium> oh, my approval don't really mean much in the OpenGFX2 repository :D
21:03:42 <Rubidium> ... well at least for the GH workflows
21:06:00 <_zephyris> The mysterious permissions groups strike again...
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22:17:56 <_glx_> oh stupid automatic copilot review (I just disabled it)
22:52:11 <LordAro> it's funny, because accusing me of being "one of those CoC types" does actually offend me
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