IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2025-07-17
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01:08:07 <Yu> But still somehow strange. from 1950 to 2040 - the first tower. And since she spawned, it’s not a matter of the amount of water
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04:46:00 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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05:02:30 <KamijouHSF> Hey folks! I think I've found a terminology mix-up in the OpenTTD 14.1 Simplified Chinese translation regarding "Oil Wells" and "Oil Rig". Offshore oil rigs (the ones at sea) are mistakenly translated as the land-based oil field industry facility.
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05:36:27 <ahyangyi> KamijouHSF: Hmm, as an SC translator I'll look at it.
05:42:47 <ahyangyi> I think the current translations are already correct, both for the live data at eints and for the `14.1` tag.
05:57:06 <wensimehrp> Hmm i don't see a problem
05:57:52 <wensimehrp> I guess they used a newgrf that mistakenly used the incorrect string?
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07:27:44 <peter1138[d]> Hmm, should I pick up my SVG stuff...
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08:48:16 <andythenorth> ugh, just put a dishwasher tablet in the dishwasher
08:48:25 <andythenorth> then licked my finger for unrelated, cookie-based reasons
08:48:37 <andythenorth> those tablets, clearly made to not taste nice
08:57:53 <peter1138[d]> Technology Connections would like a word.
08:58:32 * LordAro buys two through force of habit
09:10:42 <peter1138[d]> If you had a hot key for toggling path reservations...
09:11:52 <andythenorth> the QoL would be immeasurable
09:12:08 <peter1138[d]> If it's added as a button in transparency window then Ctrl-0 (zero) fits the pattern.
09:14:15 <andythenorth> did I once patch a tree hider that follows the cursor ?
09:19:59 <peter1138[d]> As a "transparency option" this is all backwards :/
09:20:11 <andythenorth> that's how we roll 😄
09:21:29 <andythenorth> or is that how we role?
09:55:19 <yiffgirl> peter1138[d]: personally i would never use it - i can't imagine ever turning it off, even for a second - but it sounds like a feature some people would get a lot out of
09:55:49 <peter1138[d]> Even once I've made them super visible?
09:57:16 <andythenorth> I used to always have PBS reservations on when PBS was quite new
09:57:28 <andythenorth> then I turned them off, and realised they're quite unnecessary noise 🙂
10:02:07 <reldred> Yeah I don't use them
10:02:51 <reldred> I don't find them terribly necessary
10:03:04 <reldred> holdover from a period they were scary and new (20+ years ago)
10:05:38 <cu-kai> wait, are you going to make PBS reservations look like that now?
10:05:44 <cu-kai> or rather, proposing to
10:18:59 <peter1138[d]> Bah, not quite the same time 😮
10:27:17 <peter1138[d]> IMO, visible path reservation was intended to be a debugging tool (for players, not just developers), not something that's always visible.
10:33:49 <peter1138[d]> Hmm... should I use Picard to re-tag all my music with genres? moritori/whipper did not, for whatever reason, include that information.
10:34:10 <peter1138[d]> (Probably someone had "opinions" on genre)
10:34:49 <andythenorth> grf for PBS reservations? 😛
10:34:51 <cu-kai> could you retain the option to use the "old" style?
10:35:14 <andythenorth> peter1138[d]: my spacebar is cold
10:35:55 <reldred> If I was going to actually use path reservations I’d probably prefer the red style, and then turn it off when I’m done looking under the hood.
10:37:14 <peter1138[d]> andythenorth: It's actually added a new Action 5 type, with the autorail sprites duplicated in there.
10:37:32 <peter1138[d]> So it is sort of changable.
10:39:36 <andythenorth> I seem to have purchased a giant pineapple, which I am cutting up to eat
10:39:45 <andythenorth> I am scare of how much bigger it is than usual
10:40:00 <peter1138[d]> It'll digest your insides.
10:41:03 <reldred> that said if you make the red mandatory peter the mobs will get unruly
10:42:15 <reldred> sigh i need to stop looking at buying more 30yr old warhammer minis and actually buy a fridge and a washing machine
10:44:19 <andythenorth> I am still chopping pineapple
10:44:21 <andythenorth> it may never end
10:44:39 <andythenorth> I have a spiral corer thing that normally does the whole fruit in one go
10:44:52 <andythenorth> this pineapple just said "lol, merely a flesh wound"
10:45:36 <peter1138[d]> I don't bother with whole pineapple, they're just a pain.
10:46:20 <andythenorth> they are, but I eat them every day
10:46:32 <andythenorth> and chopped pineapple is rinsingly expensive and plastic-wasting
10:46:43 <reldred> sigh, why are whitegoods so expensive
10:46:56 <reldred> I can probably afford to do this now
10:47:03 <reldred> i did get paid today finally
10:47:15 <reldred> very nearly ran out of money 😬
10:47:36 <reldred> and i'm back on fortnightly pay now instead of monthly which is very cool and very nice
10:48:06 <reldred> contracting for big hole profiteering is indeed profitable
10:49:17 <reldred> eh, they've divested from most of the uglier stuff they used to be involved in
10:49:43 <reldred> only one mine left does energy coal and that's now going into shutdown very shortly
10:49:57 <reldred> the rest is metalurgical
10:50:48 <andythenorth> finally finished
10:53:33 <mnhebi> peter1138[d]: with what, SDL?
10:54:48 <peter1138[d]> OpenGL probably.
10:55:11 <mnhebi> with OpenGL you just need a VBO with texture coordinates, vertex coordinates, and a mat4 for matrix transforms
10:55:56 <peter1138[d]> Yes, exactly "just"
10:56:33 <reldred> awesome problem solved you'll have that done by tea time yes?
10:56:38 <peter1138[d]> It all needs to be structued so that it doesn't need to be rebuilt every single frame.
10:56:47 <reldred> I'm gonna go lay down and have a nap
10:57:10 <peter1138[d]> Then there's the "all these tiles are actually the same, maybe we can instance that?" stuff.
10:57:11 <mnhebi> ahhhh that is what you were pondering
10:57:22 <mnhebi> here I thought you needed just the basics
10:57:32 <peter1138[d]> (e.g. ocean tiles)
10:57:40 <mnhebi> sorry cap my knowledge is just surface level, sorry for bothering you :gui_company:
10:58:22 <mnhebi> while I have some interest in doing a 3d to 2D sprites game in the future I haven't really looked much into sprite batching
10:58:48 <peter1138[d]> We also can't really use sprite atlases.
10:59:04 <peter1138[d]> So have to keep switching textures, which is not ideal.
10:59:42 <peter1138[d]> OpenTTD doesn't load all available sprites all the time, it loads and encodes them on-demand.
10:59:56 <peter1138[d]> Each loaded sprite has its own memory buffer.
11:00:02 <mnhebi> but you know roughly how many sprites you need at any given time?
11:00:20 <mnhebi> you could still use an atlas if so
11:00:53 <mnhebi> i.e you could have an atlas for each climates coast tiles etc
11:01:13 <peter1138[d]> Sprites are not organised in any way.
11:01:22 <peter1138[d]> Especially with NewGRFs.
11:02:09 <mnhebi> I mean, what you want can be done..
11:02:18 <mnhebi> and somewhat performantly..
11:03:37 <mnhebi> but its gona be a headache to implement
11:04:39 <peter1138[d]> With a few NewGRFs loaded, I have 290,000 sprites available.
11:05:27 <mnhebi> but even being able to atlas based on category would be a huge help
11:05:44 <peter1138[d]> There's no such thing as category
11:06:51 <mnhebi> well, what you want can be done but it'll be very VRAM heavy
11:07:12 <mnhebi> bindless batch rendering via array textures
11:08:03 <mnhebi> glSubTexImage3d onto glTexStorage3d
11:08:58 <mnhebi> I'd imagine with stock OpenTTD expect vram usage would be around 1GB
11:09:08 <mnhebi> with newgrfs...anywhere from 4+
11:10:02 <peter1138[d]> Also there's the MacOS and OpenGL problem.
11:10:22 <mnhebi> yeah me no comprendo MacOS
11:11:36 <mnhebi> tbh your best option would be to tell newgrf authors to suck it and just implement atlases by categorizing stuff :p
11:12:18 <peter1138[d]> For NewGRFs there are spritesets, so related things are grouped in a way.
11:12:26 <peter1138[d]> But not necessary grouped in a way that's useful here.
11:12:39 <peter1138[d]> You get all rotations of a vehicle in one spriteset.
11:13:29 <mnhebi> only other option would be to render the sprites onto multiple texture slots
11:13:34 <mnhebi> but your FPS is gona be terrible
11:13:50 <mnhebi> trying to run Doom on a 1990s calculator terrible
11:14:16 <mnhebi> TTDs multiplayer level terrible
11:14:41 <mnhebi> (hell even Locomotions multiplayer is kind of expressive how terrible the performance would be)
11:15:19 <mnhebi> you can either spare the vram, and have terrible fps
11:15:37 <mnhebi> or spare the fps, but contend with the fact that people are gona need cards with 4gb minimum if they want to support any mods
11:16:28 <mnhebi> if you want to avoid atlases entirely
11:17:23 <peter1138[d]> Well, avoiding atlases means we don't need to load every sprite into VRAM. Just need to manage loading and unloading textures.
11:17:57 <mnhebi> so you would be using the multiple texture slots approach?
11:17:58 <peter1138[d]> There is not usually 290,000 sprites visible at once, at least.
11:18:16 <peter1138[d]> I would be using the "I have no fucking idea how this should work" approach, right now.
11:19:39 <mnhebi> well, anything you are doing that spares VRAM is going to be fun
11:19:48 <mnhebi> fun with a capital F for lost FPS
11:20:12 <mnhebi> I'd ask John Mavor if hes willing to help you.
11:20:23 <peter1138[d]> It's great trying to deal with positive people.
11:21:05 <mnhebi> I mean sure I could sugarcoat what I'm saying
11:21:13 <mnhebi> but reality is what it is
11:21:21 <mnhebi> atlases are the standard for a good reason
11:21:29 <mnhebi> anything else is just subpar
11:22:43 <mnhebi> you could just put every sprite into a single atlas, and just restrict where the drawing is taking place maybe?
11:23:06 <peter1138[d]> Yeah, so we focus on how to build atlases in a usable way.
11:23:27 <peter1138[d]> A single atlas... how big can atlas be...
11:24:00 <mnhebi> if you want to support mobiles
11:24:15 <peter1138[d]> How big do you think "every sprite" would be?
11:24:52 <mnhebi> if you do some creative crunching
11:25:01 <mnhebi> you could fit in there..stock OpenTTD that is
11:25:02 <tony_pixel> stepanivasyn: якщо ти ще читаєш ці чати, то я хотів запитати: чому в нас лише три відмінки у файлах перекладу? У російської мови вони всі наявні, а в нас лише родовий, давальний та знахідний
11:25:51 <mnhebi> I mean I bet it would fit onto a 2k
11:26:03 <mnhebi> just, anyone viewing that monstrosity would go mad
11:27:02 <mnhebi> you can go over 4k if you wanna say screw the mobiles
11:27:54 <mnhebi> and I think more recent phones can support 8k?
11:28:14 <mnhebi> been beyond my concern since I only target PC with whatever I do
11:29:19 <mnhebi> I bet if you went on r/gamedev you'd get some better answers
11:29:39 <peter1138[d]> There's also the "how do we fit this into the game" side.
11:30:36 <peter1138[d]> The architecture needs to be... quite different.
11:30:58 <peter1138[d]> But it's able to broken into smaller steps that helps.
11:31:03 <mnhebi> peter1138[d]: maybe just disassemble the playstation port.
11:31:27 <peter1138[d]> Maybe not bother with something completely irrelevant.
11:31:46 <mnhebi> you never know if they used some really abstract trick there!
11:31:53 <mnhebi> anyways just messing with you on that
11:32:47 <peter1138[d]> IIRC the earlier SimCity versions that used hardware acceleration still used the trick of only partially rendering the screen.
11:34:22 <peter1138[d]> 2003. So predates having GBs of VRAM and things like VBos.
11:37:21 <peter1138[d]> Also, being able to fit OpenGFX 8bpp 1x zoom into a single atlas doesn't help anything much.
11:37:34 <peter1138[d]> OpenGFX 2 32bpp 4x zoom is somewhat larger.
11:37:46 <peter1138[d]> "Nobody cares about extra zoom"
11:37:59 <peter1138[d]> Feature: Remove 32bpp and extra zoom.
11:46:34 <_glx_> And we also need to support intel integrated GPU and its driver
11:47:38 <peter1138[d]> That just means keeping some of the existing system in place 🙂
11:50:06 <mnhebi> yes the partial rendering trick can be used in many different ways
11:50:50 <mnhebi> unfortunately I haven't deep dived into the Simcity games so I wouldn't have any idea how they did it
11:50:58 <mnhebi> most of my knowledge comes from indie game dev
11:52:44 <peter1138[d]> We also have the fun of palette remapping.
11:52:57 <mnhebi> Total Annihilation also did that stuff
11:53:06 <mnhebi> (and palette interpolating, how fun!)
11:53:25 <peter1138[d]> So textures are actually RGBA + index.
11:54:03 <peter1138[d]> (Or just index for 8bpp graphics)
11:54:09 <mnhebi> can't tell you much about how it did the sprite rendering so performantly tho cause that stuff is just...ugh
11:54:18 <mnhebi> and it wasn't hardware accelerated..
11:54:24 <mnhebi> so I imagine you guys do something similar already
12:07:55 <mnhebi> I mean one way you could go is using point primitives
12:08:46 <mnhebi> or instanced rendering
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12:56:15 <matusguy> hi do u guys use discord social sdk for the discord integration?
12:59:12 <matusguy> Yeah that makes sense
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13:14:16 <andythenorth> "we had to move to modern hardware accelerated graphics, so we had to delete extra zoom"
13:34:31 <peter1138[d]> Heh. In some of my old ancient backups there's a directory called "oldpatches".
13:34:58 <peter1138[d]> It has diffs dated April 2005 to November 2005.
13:37:12 <peter1138[d]> Cool, a patch to increase the number of railtypes. Maybe I should rebase that.
13:38:36 <peter1138[d]> Increase a command from 4 to 16. Which is odd, because that's all it does.
13:40:18 <peter1138[d]> It's not long after ab657338ec74150e083f2b04a2c3975e1546ad13
13:42:10 <andythenorth> peter1138[d]: does it increase them from 64 to 16?
13:49:57 <peter1138[d]> The old screenshots, eh?
13:52:19 <andythenorth> I still can't figure out how to build those bridges 😛
13:52:49 <emperorjake> This is a perfectly normal day in JGRPP-land
13:54:33 <talltyler> They do work quite nicely in JGRPP
13:55:19 <emperorjake> TTDPatch did it first
13:56:57 <talltyler> inb4 someone here says they weren’t born yet in 2005 and makes us all feel old
13:58:27 <LordAro> andythenorth: what am i looking at there?
13:58:39 <peter1138[d]> Usually a giant cursor.
14:05:23 <peter1138[d]> Unify this lot somehow?
14:09:02 <yiffgirl> peter1138[d]: ... oh god, please don't make that mandatory. it looks horrible.
14:11:25 <peter1138[d]> It's fine, you just turn it off when it's not needed.
14:12:20 <yiffgirl> but I like to see where my trains are headed :(
14:21:40 <kale91> pbs reservations I leave on as it can help you identify issues
14:21:43 <yiffgirl> out of curiosity: if the reservation visual really was only intended as a debugging tool, why were they so subdued?
14:21:48 <kale91> but I turn them off to take a screenshot 😛
14:27:17 <yiffgirl> [i hope I'm not being rude or overly aggressive here. i feel quite strongly about this, but I don't want to give you any grief.]
14:31:21 <_jgr_> I gather that there's intended to be a new Action 5 type for it (and possibly a per-railtype equivalent?), so GRF authors could provide more aesthetically pleasing graphics
14:37:52 <yiffgirl> i feel like if you play with them off by default and only occasionally turn them on to debug something, you probably want them super visible when you do
15:09:23 <tabytac> I do agree that i have path reservations turned on almost always, as they just are useful to see if you can demolish a platform yet or see where a train is trying to go (especially with features like realistic braking meaning you see the intended path much earlier than the train takes it).
15:09:23 <tabytac> Implementing something like Factorio where the reservations are only shown when you have the signal window open or something *could* work, but in my opinion, a better solution would be to have all 3 as options (Off/ Transparent/ High-Contrast)
15:09:23 <tabytac> Also your point earlier that the setting should be moved away from the settings list and somewhere more accessible is something i defo agree with too
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15:24:34 <andythenorth> LordAro: it's a game called OpenTTD
15:24:45 <andythenorth> it's the side effect of another game called "C++ and Github"
15:25:54 <andythenorth> peter1138[d]: when are you Level 42?
15:26:09 <kuhnovic> He might already be there
15:27:19 <peter1138[d]> Bah, NFORenum doesn't allow 16 byte palette remaps.
15:30:51 <_zephyris> peter1138[d]: Yes please...
15:32:43 <audigex> tabytac: YEah I'm a big fan of the "Off/Translucent/High Contrast" approach, it's ideal for everyone really
15:32:43 <audigex> High contrast for newbies, Translucent for most general gameplay, Off for screenshots or people who want a clean look
15:33:11 <peter1138[d]> I'm not a fan because the code gets horrible.
15:34:00 <audigex> But nah I appreciate that, "I'd like this" is a lot easier than making it happen
15:35:25 <ahyangyi> Just use an AI to write the code and use another AI to review the code /s
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15:38:29 <cu-kai> yeah lol, because that worked so well for microsoft, heh
15:38:40 <cu-kai> +1 for "off/translucent/high contrast" options
15:40:28 <mnhebi> peter1138[d]: just 16 bytes? Why not 32 in these modern times :p
16:18:23 <mnhebi> I hate it when people defeat my poor jokes with facts
16:20:40 <peter1138[d]> I'm not sure what the fact is there 🙂
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16:59:55 <peter1138[d]> Something about the order of #14365's commits doesn't sit well with me.
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17:00:47 <notenoughram> is there an stm32 / arm channel ?
17:01:11 <LordAro> generally, or openttd related?
17:02:13 <LordAro> i've no idea about the former, though i'd expect something to exist somewhere
17:02:13 <notenoughram> i have a tiny black flat thiing here that i have programmed with a firmware i have compiled but it does nothing right now, i even set the internal pll and core clock
17:02:34 <peter1138[d]> Maybe you don't have enough RAM.
17:02:34 <notenoughram> it is a gd32f130
17:02:42 <LordAro> yeah, i'm not sure how you've found us, but this is not the right place
17:03:38 <LordAro> oh wait, this is OFTC
17:04:20 <notenoughram> thanks i was confused because on another server the list was disabled
17:07:18 <notenoughram> I guess no arm channels here?
17:09:32 <belajalilija> Any update on the atari thing?
17:09:49 <LordAro> belajalilija: it's barely been a day, slow down :p
17:10:20 <belajalilija> Tbf i have no concept of time
17:10:26 <belajalilija> I thought it had been 3-5
17:32:03 <notenoughram> So, what are you up to nowadays? since the OPENTTD is complete since like 2012
17:35:56 <mnhebi> Nothing is ever complete.
17:37:44 <LordAro> just a few tweaks here and there since 2012
17:41:54 <talltyler> Or alternatively, read the blog posts on our website for the highlights 🙂
17:46:51 <truebrain> Or you know, don't assume silly things 😄
18:00:41 <notenoughram> Nah, in my opinion what is not broken does not need to be fixed
18:01:41 <notenoughram> Fix: Limiting the inflation did not quite work [FS#5312] (r24564) - lol dudes, i can tell you a fix, use 0 inflation, gold standard.
18:02:36 <notenoughram> btw, there was -0.5% inflation that is called deflation, before the fed was created
18:03:32 <notenoughram> easy fix, hang those on trees that steal your money
18:03:50 <andythenorth> 'need modern graphics' folks can just get TF3
18:04:00 <andythenorth> and get actually modern (ish) graphics
18:04:09 <andythenorth> instead of modern graphics from 1998
18:04:32 <notenoughram> unrealengine 5.4 is the new trend.
18:04:47 <notenoughram> it just takes up like 120GiB on the hdd/nvme
18:10:05 <belajalilija> andythenorth: I’m really excited about this
18:10:05 <belajalilija> But i was really excited about tf2 too and I’ve played like 1 hour of that
18:20:30 <andythenorth> I was really excited about Euro Truck Simulator 2, but I played 10 mins
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18:20:39 <andythenorth> all this realism shit
18:21:00 <andythenorth> I've played days of this
18:50:09 <belajalilija> andythenorth: For me it’s not the realism i find to be too much but how fiddly many newer games are
18:52:00 <belajalilija> Fx with cities skyline i like placing down lights, benches, trees and other decoration
18:52:27 <belajalilija> But i wanna be able to “snap” objects to a line or node etc
18:53:08 <belajalilija> Or to have the tools to centre an object between two others
18:53:40 <belajalilija> In OpenTTD thats simply not an issue as there’s a grid
18:53:46 <belajalilija> So i always end up back here
18:57:06 <jfkuayue> I have no energy to play ETS2 usually
18:57:19 <jfkuayue> But OpenTTD is very low energy
18:57:39 <jfkuayue> Together with airlinesim, you just open the browser
19:12:54 *** wm_ is now known as MinchinWeb
19:13:40 <MinchinWeb> Is there something more that I need to do to reclaim my BaNaNaS account? I sent a forum message a couple days ago and haven't heard anything back...
19:14:07 <MinchinWeb> (Not sure if the process is broken, or I just need to be more patient...)
20:11:59 <truebrain> MinchinWeb: I saw your message, but haven't gotten to it; this weekend, most likely.
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20:12:51 <MinchinWeb> truebrain: all good!
20:13:26 <MinchinWeb> I finally got working on cleaning up a few lingering bugs on my AI (WmDOT).
20:13:31 <truebrain> feel free to poke me by the end of the weekend if I haven't; as I will have forgotten 😛
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21:02:30 <peter1138[d]> RGB colours again?
21:02:51 <peter1138[d]> (Left is RGB on 8bpp, right is RGB on 32bpp)
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21:47:07 <peter1138[d]> Hmm, which alpha do I use...
21:50:23 <peter1138[d]> "both", I guess.
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