IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2025-03-29
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04:46:45 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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09:05:02 <_zephyris> It's alright, the file already exists /s
10:12:24 <andythenorth> hmm ok, what do we call it when actually focus on the first of the many side quests?
10:12:28 <andythenorth> so we can get back to the main quest?
10:19:07 <blathijs> Inverse yak shaving? :-)
10:32:29 <xarick> if only aqueducts weren't so expensive...
10:37:23 <xarick> how to terraform without touching water?
10:38:42 <xarick> more specifically, rivers
10:39:29 <xarick> because i could have ships in there, i don't wanna cut off river connections
10:42:56 <xarick> wow, vcpkg got updates on a saturday
10:51:42 <_zephyris> Should I merge ogfx gimp2->3?
10:51:49 <_zephyris> Looks reasonable, but can't test
12:01:33 <pickpacket> xarick: are aqueducts expensive? I don't even know. By the time I have a need for them I'm already making more money than I can spend 😅
12:26:38 <xarick> oh, forum has no ads anymore?
12:26:59 <xarick> interesting, it opens faster as well
12:27:59 <xarick> used to take 3 seconds to start showing anything on the page
12:30:33 <xarick> battle of versions vs road to 5000 * 4 * 15
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14:28:48 <truebrain> I did hide Zorgs comment
14:28:56 <truebrain> It was just too much text to scroll past
14:30:22 <truebrain> _zephyris: Shall I just poke orudge to get us on a Paid LFS plan, and shall we just move the repo as-is? Or has there been another suggestion / consensus about that in the meantime?
14:35:31 <_zephyris> No other ideas, don't think I've missed anything.
14:38:28 <_zephyris> I guess last open question is build time - it takes a long time to do an ogfx2 build from scratch... Is that a particular issue?
14:41:29 <_zephyris> I could still wrangle it down into a non-LFS repo by chopping up some sprite sheets
14:43:06 <truebrain> I my opinion, it is fine to pay GitHub a small amount of money. We have been using it for a long time now 🙂
14:43:50 <truebrain> _zephyris: Do you build it on your own machine, and just upload the files?
14:44:46 <truebrain> Over time we might want to look into automating that. Purely for the bus-factor. Say you are going on a holiday for 6 months, would be sad if we can't release a new version as we don't have your setup 😄 But this is all "to figure out after we released", if you ask me
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14:49:58 <_zephyris> It's not that the build process is anything special - it's just a bunch of python spitting out images. But just likely to be a bit more 'fragile' than a simple NML encode of images which already exist in the repo.
14:50:17 <truebrain> I guess we could also benefit from some clever caching
14:50:27 <truebrain> as stuff is not likely to drasticly change between releases 😄
14:50:47 <_zephyris> Yup - and the image generation python tries it's best to do that.
14:51:00 <truebrain> yeah, but on GitHub we need a place to store that between runs 😛
14:54:46 <_zephyris> I 'know I don't know' about that 🙂
14:54:59 <_zephyris> How do builds make their way to the openttd cdn?
14:55:02 <truebrain> That is why we are a group; so we can help each other 😛
14:55:44 <truebrain> orudge has setup the payment, so you can migrate the repo when ever you feel like it
14:56:28 <_glx_> less images per file may help with speed, or allow parallelisation
14:57:08 <_glx_> but it depends on what it actually does of course
14:58:01 <truebrain> If you migrate before the end of the month, you can cancel your subscription, and not have to pay for the full month 😛
14:58:04 <_zephyris> truebrain: Cool. And that's actually run on the github servers, so a clean build for the release?
14:58:15 <truebrain> Yeah; there is a lot more scripting involved
14:58:19 <truebrain> so the main challenge is going to be: time
14:58:25 <truebrain> how long does a full release take to build?
14:58:46 <_glx_> my guess would be to do it using macos runner 🙂
14:59:11 <truebrain> I also think we end up with splitting the build in smaller pieces, so they all take 10 to 20 minutes to build, then unify the result
15:01:50 <_glx_> probably possible to run each separate grf build in parallel
15:03:26 <_zephyris> truebrain: Clean build is a long time, hours
15:03:49 <_zephyris> Can be made much shorter by storing the generated images in the repo of course.
15:03:56 <_glx_> but clean build is all serial for now?
15:04:59 <truebrain> Will be fun to automate it 😛 And if all fails, we can always just run it on our cluster. Not like CPU is that much of a problem there 🙂
15:07:23 <_zephyris> Oh, I've split out 1x vs 4x zoom generation, forgot about that
15:07:52 <_zephyris> I haven't thoroughly tested bulking just the 1x zoom set, but that will be much, much faster.
15:08:33 <truebrain> shit to figure out; but all that can be done after release 🙂
15:10:11 <_glx_> yeah workflows are usually written using multiple iterations
15:10:30 <_glx_> first something working, then improvements
15:10:56 <_zephyris> _glx_: It is parallelised, the slow bit is 32bpp->8bpp conversion, and that's done multi process
15:11:22 <_glx_> macos runner should help with the "slow" part
15:11:40 <_glx_> seeing how fast it handles openttd compilation
15:16:38 <xarick> suggestion: Limit airport placement based on noise level off by default
15:17:01 <_zephyris> So, transfer repo to OTTD org. Use github release url as the source, work out OTTD cdn later.
15:17:11 <_zephyris> Sounds like a fun evening 😉
15:19:26 <truebrain> trick will be to align it with a release 😄
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15:21:10 <digitalfox> Been waiting for this for a long time 🙂
15:26:56 <_zephyris> And I'll keep doing manual builds and github releases for now.
15:27:03 <_zephyris> (Just thinking aloud)
15:27:25 <truebrain> now don't become a gov spy for some country and infect everyone 😛
15:28:01 <digitalfox> truebrain: Well I would be a victim 🙃
15:28:54 <truebrain> What a spy would say! 😛
15:28:59 <truebrain> (okay, I will stop this line of trolling)
15:30:45 <_zephyris> Fair point though...
15:30:57 <truebrain> not really; GRFs are sandboxed
15:31:23 <_zephyris> Is unpacking the gzip sandboxed?
15:31:26 <_glx_> using github to build doesn't prevent infection 😉
15:31:37 <truebrain> _zephyris: it is a tar, and a bunch of validation is done during extraction, yes
15:31:48 <truebrain> If you can compromise OpenTTD with a GRF, that is a bug 🙂
15:32:01 <_glx_> yeah we don't use a lib to read tar, it's all done by hand
15:33:25 <_glx_> and I remember we had to handle "broken" tars
15:34:29 <_glx_> anyway we don't allow tar to navigate outside of itself
15:36:41 <xarick> i have a depot being shared by 2 routes
15:37:02 <xarick> i blame overbuilding depots on top of each other not erroring
15:37:48 <_glx_> yes it's allowed, so you can rotate depot to fix mistake without needing to first destroy
15:38:36 <_glx_> but you have to handle it in AI if you don't want that to happen
15:38:36 <xarick> but my code expects each route to have a dedicated depot
15:39:41 <xarick> in case one of the routes goes bankrupt, it demolishes depots
15:39:49 <_glx_> other option is to allow your routes to share depot
15:39:51 <xarick> so the other route gets screwed
15:40:24 <_glx_> with a table storing all routes using a given tile as depot
15:40:30 <xarick> I'd like to do that, but for performance reasons
15:41:00 <xarick> checking if a depot is no longer being used would involve creating a list of vehicles, and with 600k vehicles, that's bad
15:41:52 <xarick> or i could try devise some code to check the other routes
15:41:58 <_glx_> that's why I say a table, as local cache to not recreate the list everytime
15:43:54 <xarick> can start trying new things for the next version
15:45:18 <_glx_> or you need to check before building depot and relocate if there's already one
15:50:33 <_zephyris> The openttd-ttf font repo is up for grabs too
15:51:37 <_zephyris> I should make it build using make, but that's a really small job.
15:51:46 <_zephyris> Small and simple in comparison to ogfx2
15:52:31 <kuhnovic> The made you a dev but now you have to hand over your precious repo's. You made a deal with the devil 😆
15:54:14 <truebrain> _zephyris: Go for it!
15:54:27 <truebrain> kuhnovic: Let it be said that those two events are not correlated 🙂
15:55:18 <kuhnovic> Yeah yeah, that's what they all say 😛
15:55:24 <kuhnovic> I am kidding of course
15:55:52 <_glx_> I think it's easier to transfer repos when you are dev in both though
16:01:30 <_zephyris> Well, once the kids are in bed I will find out!
16:08:27 <_zephyris> Hmm, does someone need a paid github subscription to fork an LFS repo?
16:13:06 <truebrain> Dunno; but you can just work in OpenTTD's
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16:33:39 <jfkuayue> There is a person saying they like using CZTR since it has low saturation and good to eyes. Considering what Zorg had said about OpenGFX2 Toyland I think this could be a point.
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16:50:20 <_zephyris> Not to be flippant, but that is the point of mods/grfs.
16:50:46 <_zephyris> And having one polarising default climate isn't a big issue IMO
16:53:07 <jfkuayue> I mean, everyone here seems to dislike CZTR
16:54:41 <truebrain> Don't mistake a group of vocal people with "everyone"
16:56:20 <truebrain> As by that measure, everyone plays JGRPP ... and that is a lie 🙂
16:57:13 <truebrain> And everyone dislikes PBS 😛
16:57:22 <truebrain> Owh, so many more examples 😄
17:11:38 <andythenorth> what do the stats say about CZTR?
17:11:44 <andythenorth> imagine....having stats 🙂
17:33:29 <talltyler> 2.3% of OpenTTD 14 games in 2024 Q4 used the CZTR Ground set (it's not a base set, but a bunch of individual GRFs)
17:48:04 <truebrain> Even 5% with JGRPP!
17:51:22 <andythenorth> 8.3% reduction in Horse grf size by consolidating some duplicate switches
18:00:41 <xarick> oh, there is an AI category
18:01:28 <xarick> AAAHogEx 2nd place already
18:05:00 <xarick> SimpleAI - I like this AI, but its air routes are terrible in large maps
18:05:23 <xarick> also it stops building routes past a certain number 😦
18:06:59 <xarick> I don't understand why CivilAI is so popular
18:07:34 <xarick> need to test it in smaller maps
18:20:15 <xarick> the setting doesn't even exist!
18:25:01 <andythenorth> pff 0.7 MB of grf just so players can adjust Horse vehicle capacities
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18:44:40 <xarick> trains don't play the brokendown sound inside tunnels?
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18:46:58 <andythenorth> now 875 switches
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20:01:59 <_zephyris> Fix repo capitalisation?
20:02:14 <_zephyris> opengfx2 -> OpenGFX2?
20:03:33 <_zephyris> Ah, can't transfer repos. Don't have create repo permission for the OpenTTD organisation.
20:52:44 <truebrain> Try it now; let me know when you are done, so I can remove it again
20:54:32 <truebrain> Can't really find where to give only you permission for it, so it is everyone that is a member (including translators), or only admins. Bit weird.
21:03:00 <_zephyris> OpenTTD-TTF incoming...
21:04:27 <_zephyris> OpenGFX2 incoming...
21:05:19 <_zephyris> Confirmed done, all looks happy.
21:06:44 <truebrain> I will set permissions in a sec 🙂
21:07:33 <_zephyris> I'm faffing with some zoom out sprite optimisations, always super iterative
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21:12:27 <truebrain> _zephyris: do you want to enable branch protections, so you have to do things via a PR? Or will that be too annoying?
21:13:13 <_zephyris> As it's 'going stable' probably a good idea.
21:13:19 <truebrain> owh, guess we should also setup translator on that repo ...
21:13:23 <truebrain> so much tiny things to do 😄
21:16:28 <truebrain> okay, both repos configure3d
21:17:16 <truebrain> and also pinned, as ... why not 🙂
21:17:34 <truebrain> nice; and tnx a lot for doing all this _zephyris 🙂
21:18:11 <_zephyris> What can I say, it's a great game!
21:18:25 <truebrain> After 20 years, I guess I agree 😛
22:09:25 <peter1138[d]> Bah, my tablet's no longer signed into GitHub.
22:16:30 <truebrain> Owh, wow , you even found where to change that 😄
22:19:14 <truebrain> (Infra repo doesn't announce here, but Zeph found the repo 😛 )
22:19:36 <xarick> help me in english: `BuildRoadRouteDepot` or `BuildRouteRoadDepot`?
22:20:03 <_glx_> I guess we need to add dorpsgek config to the "new" repos
22:21:33 <truebrain> Yeah, all the usual stuff is needed 🙂
22:37:34 <_glx_> don't they point to cdn ?
22:38:09 <_glx_> ha yeah it's not vital to use latest to run regression
22:38:46 <_glx_> it just needs a baseset
22:39:28 <_zephyris> Makes sense in a way, possibly useful to make sure handling of missing sprites is working?
22:40:47 <_glx_> it uses null driver, so not really checking missing sprite handling
22:43:27 <_glx_> we could update to 7.1, but it will still be outdated 😉
22:50:01 <truebrain> V0.7 with _8 .. your naming disturbs me greatly 😛
22:50:11 <truebrain> Now we just need a date for merging those PRs 🙂
22:54:19 <_zephyris> I can only apologise 😉
22:55:17 <_zephyris> There is logic (`8` vs `32` for 8bpp vs 32bpp, no suffix vs `ez` suffix for 1x vs 4x zoom)... But, not great...
23:03:43 <truebrain> Lol, did not link it to 8bpp 😄
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23:25:31 <xarick> is there a way to update minimap vehicle position frequency?
23:26:35 <xarick> every second isn't tasteful enough for me
23:27:45 <xarick> I like to see those little white dots moving
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