IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2024-08-27
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00:04:51 <echte_schokolade> Is there a tutorial to make trains?
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02:57:11 <mnhebi> If you can figure out how to install python, then sure making trains is easy since NML is just typing English in a specific format..creating graphics for them can be quite time consuming if you want to match the best of the best in terms of shading..
03:01:52 <mnhebi> and then there is the NML tutorial that teaches you the basics of coding
03:02:23 <mnhebi> I think Purno's tutorial gets it slightly wrong where the light in TTD comes from
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03:08:47 <mnhebi> ....and I just noticed you already got that in the correct channel :d
03:18:23 <audigex> mnhebi: The light definitely comes from the right in the original TTD sprites and his tutorial is generally correct IMO
03:18:23 <audigex> Although personally I’ve found nobody really gives a shit about that apart from on buildings, and that it’s often more important with vehicles to use the limited colour space to get the vehicle’s shape right instead
03:18:23 <audigex> You still probably want to avoid making light straight up come from the left with shadows on the right, for sure - but with vehicles you can get away with less of an emphasis on it being from the right and have it more ambiguous or flat (neither from the right or left)
03:19:20 <audigex> Every vehicle single set I can think of either continues the “right comes from/above the right”, or pretty much ignores light directionality entirely
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03:48:01 <mnhebi> audigex: well for terrain the explanation is a bit off
03:49:55 <goddess_ishtar> mnhebi: I mean when you put it that way all programming is "typing English in a specific format"
04:04:38 <mnhebi> well, C and such require far more knowledge than NML does.
04:05:04 <mnhebi> NML is quite entry level like lua etc
04:06:43 <mnhebi> and compared to nfo its like a breeze
04:06:49 <mnhebi> like seriously, try making a grf in nfo.
04:13:36 <goddess_ishtar> NML is easy to pick up, yes
04:13:43 <goddess_ishtar> well, besides the syntax being annoying
04:13:51 <goddess_ishtar> but that's because it's mostly just definitions
04:20:21 <reldred> I'm still honestly not sure whether I think NML is easier or harder than NFO
04:20:28 <reldred> Some things yes, other things no
04:20:43 <reldred> I may bowever be a statistical outlier
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04:22:00 <emperorjake> Definitely an outlier, NML is way easier for everyone else
04:49:01 <locosage> Nml is easier untill it's not xd
04:50:45 <reldred> It's easier right until it abstracts something so-far away from the mechanical principles it's supposed to follow.
04:51:02 <reldred> I dunno, I find it easier to understand the NFO spec sometimes than the NML
04:51:22 <reldred> NML sometimes I just have to shake my head, trust that it works, and stop trying to understand it.
04:51:36 <reldred> whereas NFO is very mechanical in how it works
04:51:49 <reldred> fucking cumbersome to write
04:51:58 <reldred> but somehow I understand it better
04:52:38 <locosage> That and until you get to a point where you need to write code in some other language on top of nml
04:54:45 <locosage> reldred: Not with grf-py 😜
05:10:33 <goddess_ishtar> yeah NML is kinda an awkward combination tbh
05:10:47 <goddess_ishtar> like it's sometimes too abstracted, sometimes not abstracted enough
05:11:03 <goddess_ishtar> it's telling that almost every major project has some sort of templating solution they use
05:14:17 <andythenorth> bi-annual lighting summary
05:14:56 <andythenorth> 1. Purno's tutorial is flat out wrong, lighting from the rear would be the most stupid way to light isometric sprites as both front faces would be in shade, nobody would do this unless they're making Syndicate
05:15:12 <andythenorth> 2. The original OTTD landscape tiles are lit from the rear
05:15:43 <andythenorth> 3. original sprites are consistently lit from about 5pm on the clock for nearly all vehicles, trees etc
05:16:32 <andythenorth> 4. vehicle lighting: as long as there's contrast, most crimes will pass unseen.
05:26:20 <mnhebi> lol, OpenTTD does not tolerate trying to printscreen when you have rivatuner overlay active xD
05:27:15 <mnhebi> ah alright had to change the application detection level to high
05:27:22 <mnhebi> Behold, OpenTTD on VULKAN :D
05:29:23 <mnhebi> Hmm, not bad, tho I get the same performance on OpenGL..
05:31:16 <mnhebi> hmm depending on zoom and what im looking at I can get anywhere between 60 to 203 fps.
05:33:05 <mnhebi> ogl does get left a little behind with top performance being around 160fps..
05:34:00 <mnhebi> hmm apparently its the vulkan openttd doesnt like at all, on opengl it doesnt crash at all, meanwhile on vulkan it crashes if you switch screens etc..
05:35:02 <mnhebi> Using Mesa3d + zink driver it provides, translates opengl calls to vulkan calls
05:38:10 <mnhebi> https://github.com/pal1000/mesa-dist-win if you wanna fool around with it, gotta have the VK_ADD_DRIVER_FILES environment variable set and point it to either lvp_icd.x86_64.json or dzn_icd.x86_64.json (with full folder path)
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05:55:48 <peter1138> Hmm, what happened to that direct3d stuff someone wrote...
05:57:36 <mnhebi> you can also use that to run it on d3d12
05:57:58 <mnhebi> but at least for me that refuses to even show the screen lol
05:58:18 <peter1138> Not the same thing at all though.
05:59:27 <mnhebi> but pretty sure no one fooled around with d3d
06:00:52 <peter1138> ajmiles: Sure they did
06:31:27 <andythenorth> andythenorth: Nope, even Syndicate is front lit 😛
06:34:24 <peter1138> Just draw everything for NightGFX and ignore lighting...
06:42:44 <andythenorth> we can recolour palette for that 😛
06:42:51 <andythenorth> at least in 8bpp
06:42:58 <andythenorth> we know where the windows are
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06:50:08 <kuhnovic> Looks like my laptop screen in the sun
06:51:35 <reldred> Shaders + some more magic colours to make a fake light effect.
06:52:19 <wensimehrp> andythenorth: Night graphics
07:26:13 <andythenorth> it's always noon in OpenTTD
07:35:56 <midzer> some1 tried to build with Emscripten? it failed for me
07:38:37 <peter1138> Our preview builds work at the moment.
07:40:48 <midzer> peter1138: what are preview builds? tip of tree branch?
07:41:17 <peter1138> No, they are builds triggered from PRs, but they build with emcripten.
07:41:36 <midzer> ok, thanks, gonna check those params
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08:23:11 <ahyangyi> peter1138: How many NewGRFs do NightGFX style graphics?
08:23:25 <reldred> two or three, I think
08:23:48 <ahyangyi> 😮 what are they, I want to take a look
08:24:13 <reldred> god I don't know, I made that number up.
08:24:19 <peter1138> Hmm, should I get MusicBrainz Picard to move my directories too...
08:24:23 <reldred> I suspect it's somewhat accurate
08:24:35 <reldred> my CD deck finally turned up
08:27:34 <peter1138> Mainly an issue with classical CDs where things get confused by composer vs performers.
08:28:56 <reldred> I have a similar problem with recorded DJ sets
08:29:07 <midzer> nice, it works. looks like noone maintains an online version, I could do it, if no "official" version is encouraged
08:29:18 <reldred> especially anything by Andy C where at any one time there could be three decks playing
09:19:35 <peter1138> Hmm, Picard can preserve timestamps of files... but I guess that means I would need to scan the whole library again in MPD. Probably the date I ripped the disc isn't that important.
09:20:57 <reldred> hmm, I'm going to need to work out a workflow for ripping CD's now
09:21:34 <reldred> new deck has optical and coax out so I'll connect the CD to the MD deck over coax and run the optical to the PC
09:22:17 <reldred> nearly time to start collecting CD's again
09:23:16 <reldred> I need a storage solution now too
09:27:54 <peter1138> Optical doesn't let you make sure your rips are 100% accurate..
09:28:06 <peter1138> Good for playback, not great for ripping.
09:28:46 <reldred> The deck I've got is supposed to be famous for how good it's rips are
09:29:02 <peter1138> I once had a load of files that had skips in them because the CD player just carried on... and the software had no idea.
09:29:18 <reldred> Yeah I can see that being an issue
09:30:19 <peter1138> This is why I still have optical drives on my PC. I can rip audio CDs correctly. Sometimes one works better than the other if a disc is scratched.
09:30:43 <peter1138> On Windows I used CDex to do it, on Linux I use whipper.
09:32:01 <reldred> Yeah this deck is VERY good at playing back damaged disks. Has a stationary laser and a moving spindle instead with this weird little weighted puck on it. Played back a known broken CD surprisingly well. Not well enough to rip but yeah.
09:32:46 <reldred> But I do want to look at a dedicated CD drive for the PC. Just not sure what approach will work best when I'm building a PC in a case without 5" bays in it.
09:35:11 <reldred> oh nice there's some 5.25" enclosures on amazon, that'll do.
09:35:22 <reldred> was wondering if they still existed
09:39:48 <reldred> but yeah we had a cd press operating in australia churning out disks in the late eighties that like, universally all failed. delamination, all sorts of weird things. I've got an '87 pressing of New Order - Substance and none of my other decks can even get through the first track. This deck got through almost the entire first track before it started dropping samples in the last few seconds. So
09:39:48 <reldred> yeah, pretty impressed with how this CDP-XB930E performs.
09:40:54 <reldred> But I see what you mean about validation, hmm
10:00:39 <peter1138> I have CD with a hole in the data layer...
10:19:05 <reldred> oh god both my copies of substance are '87 pressings, I thought my 2cd deluxe one was the most recent re-release
10:21:10 <reldred> my copy of mariya takeuchi variety is from '84, that cd is still in good nic though
10:47:35 <peter1138> Okay, anyone know about postgresql backup / restore?
10:48:11 <peter1138> For any timestamp, I'm storing timezone information.
10:48:35 <peter1138> This is visible when querying the database, and I can see it is there in the database backups.
10:48:44 <peter1138> But in my restored database, the timezome information is lost.
10:50:05 <peter1138> Technically not a backup/restore actually. It's a pg_dump, and then executing that dump.
10:52:21 <audigex> andythenorth: I need this on a t-shirt, please inform me when your Etsy store opens
10:52:42 <LordAro> database setting, rather than part of the data
10:52:52 <peter1138> That seems to be talking about a setting, not the data.
10:53:10 <peter1138> e.g... 2018-01-17 06:41:15.588483-02
10:53:15 <peter1138> In my dump, that is preserved.
10:53:32 <peter1138> In my restore, that has become 2018-01-17 04:41:15.588483+00
10:53:45 <peter1138> (Or is it 08:14...)
10:54:15 <peter1138> This is generally "fine", except C# didn't use to have a Date-only datatype..
10:54:21 <peter1138> DateTime.Today is 00:00
10:54:35 <peter1138> In my restore, they are now the previous day, but 23:00...
10:54:42 <peter1138> Which is... the wrong date.
10:55:28 <peter1138> timestamp vs timestamp with time zone, I think.
10:56:14 <peter1138> My fields are all timestamptz.
10:56:45 <peter1138> That comment is odd.
10:56:55 <peter1138> Because my inputs are not converted to UTC.
10:58:45 <peter1138> And this query clearly shows timezone info.
11:11:58 <peter1138> Yeah, updating a codebase from DateTime to DateOnly is... not a small job :p
11:14:59 <peter1138> Well, so many people say that timestamptz does not store timezone.
11:15:04 <peter1138> So what am I looking at?
11:17:57 <peter1138> Hmm, maybe it is my original server is in Europe/London, and my backup server is in UTC, or something.
11:21:34 <audigex> timestamptz definitely holds timezone information. That's what the TZ at the end stands for
11:21:34 <audigex> When you stored the data, did you try to store a UTC time?
11:21:34 <audigex> It's been a while since I used pgsql but IIRC timestamptz always stores as UTC with offset information based on the client's timezone - so if you try to store a UTC time it'll try to re-adjust that to UTC again
11:22:26 <peter1138> Apparently I am wrong, and you are wrong.
11:22:35 <peter1138> TimestampTZ does not hold timezone information.
11:22:47 <peter1138> It comes purely from the servers timezone setting.
11:23:10 <audigex> As I understand it, you send a time and it automatically saves it as UTC
11:23:10 <peter1138> As I suspected, my backup server was set to Etc/UTC instead of Europe/London.
11:23:41 <peter1138> Changing this, and then quitting psql and restarting it... now all my original dates are showing correctly.
11:24:08 <peter1138> So the timezone show for each timestamp is based on the database's timezone setting, and not stored in the field at all.
11:25:05 <peter1138> audigex: yes,and it "looks" like you're storing TZ, but it's not.
11:25:30 <audigex> Yeah that's what I mean, it automatically stores as UTC based on the `INSERT/UPDATE` server's timezone
11:25:30 <audigex> Then when you `SELECT` it adjusts to that server's timezone
11:26:09 <audigex> The main mistake I used to make with it was that I'd convert to UTC myrself first, then be confused that it seemed to be saving a different time - I needed to just not convert to UTC myself and let the server handle it
11:27:17 <audigex> Eg if you're in UTC-5 and insert/update 2024-08-27 14:00:00, it'll add 5 hours on and save 2024-08-27 19:00:00
11:27:17 <audigex> Then if you retrieve in a UTC+3 server it'll retrieve 2024-08-27 22:00:00
11:27:52 <audigex> But if you try to convert to UTC first and insert 2024-08-27 19:00:00 it'll actually save it as 2024-08-28 00:00:00
11:27:54 <peter1138> Hmm, maybe that bit works 'properly' if you are storing "2024-08-27 14:00:00+00" instead of "2024-08-27 14:00:00"?
11:28:07 <peter1138> Because if not... I've got some issues coming :p
11:28:51 <audigex> I wouldn't want to promise you I'm right there, I haven't used it for years
11:28:51 <audigex> But if it's something mission critical then I'd definitely suggest testing for it now before the clocks change for the end of summer 😂
11:30:09 <audigex> Thinking about it yeah it's not saving the timezone, rather it's adjusting for timezone on the way in/out so that you can always just throw local times at it
11:31:06 <audigex> > PostgreSQL will assume the input timezone is the same as the system’s timezone if no timezone offset is specified.
11:31:06 <audigex> If you've been specifying `+00` then you should be fine from what I can see
11:31:15 <peter1138> I remember converting one system which stored local time to store UTC...
11:31:39 <peter1138> order by was fun with local time 🙂
11:32:05 <peter1138> I think I need to switch to DateOnly, but that's a bit of a pain with C#.
11:32:26 <peter1138> Or I can maybe treat startdate as startdatetime... heh
11:32:39 <reldred> I worked with a system that stored date, hour, minutes as seperate columns, occasionally stored seconds (often didnt) and certainly didnt account for timezones *anywhere*
11:33:11 <peter1138> I've seen date and time stored separately enough, but not individual parts of them.
11:33:18 <peter1138> Also... stored as strings instead of dates.
11:33:44 <reldred> which was vexing in that it used whatever date and time the client applications supplied which when the clients experience daylight savings... caused issues...
11:34:02 <peter1138> As long as timestamps are stored in UTC then things just work... except pure dates.
11:35:22 <reldred> this just stored whatever the local time was. If it stored everything as UTC that would have been far too sensible.
11:39:10 <peter1138> `DateOnly - DateOnly` doesn't work :S
11:46:56 <peter1138> Yeah, issue with forcing my startdate to be date only is someone is bound to come along and want it to start in the middle of the day...
11:51:37 <peter1138> Knowing my luck I switch and then they deprecate it 😄
11:52:49 <audigex> reldred: I've had plenty of systems where timezone basically didn't matter - just store everything as UTC and who gives a shit
11:52:49 <audigex> Like yeah it's not something I could use globally... but for internal systems for a UK hospital, it's vanishingly unlikely I'm suddenly gonna need to export that to saudi arabia or something
11:53:11 <audigex> And we're legally not allowed to host our servers outside the UK even when we use external infrastructure, so I don't even have to worry about that
11:53:31 <reldred> well, this is a system sold in a country that has multiple time zones, and DST in parts of it.
11:53:44 <audigex> Yeah in that instance definitely more problematic 😂
11:55:40 <peter1138> That's another potential concern with DateOnly... is it going to be wrong depending on the time zone a user is in...
11:55:40 <emperorjake> I've started collecting CDs again too, they're a bargain at $2 at the op shop
11:56:08 <peter1138> You can collect CDs if you want to, we don't judge.
12:59:17 <midzer> using current Emscripten build I get runtime error on load via mobile phone. I guess due too much memory being allocated (I think phones have a certain limit there). Although task manager shows around ~200mb
13:00:00 <peter1138> Does not surprise me, it's not designed as a way to run on mobile phones.
13:02:32 <midzer> Is it worth to dig in the codebase to find out whether a large array or something is being copied potentially unncessary on load process?
13:04:15 <midzer> I had another project where a huge `new` allocation was copied, so memory jumped over 1GB which resulted also in crash
13:10:47 <peter1138> Pelya's stuff is not "OpenTTD" though, it's something modified with whatever changes.
13:11:54 <midzer> yup, miserably, changes are unknown
13:14:15 <peter1138> It's also misusing github as a binary-hosting platform.
13:15:28 <audigex> It does, however, allow me to play OpenTTD on my car
13:16:37 <LordAro> i wish "on" was a typo
13:27:51 <audigex> peter1138: Nope, literally running it on the car
13:45:58 <audigex> Old video from my last car but I assume the newer current one can do it too considering it has a faster CPU
13:58:18 <peter1138> Aw shit, I ate the last Timtam.
14:14:47 <audigex> peter1138: Tesco stock them now, greatest improvement in the UK since the NHS
14:15:18 <peter1138> That's where I got them
14:15:43 <belajalilija> audigex: are they that bad?
14:16:25 <belajalilija> ive heard, from australians, that they're like penguins but better, but that is hardly setting the bar high
14:17:10 <audigex> Honestly at this point I don't even know why Penguins still exist
14:17:40 <belajalilija> for shit jokes that exist on the back
14:18:02 <audigex> We can put jokes on Tim Tams, best of both worlds
14:18:02 <audigex> Bite off opposite corners, suck your tea through it like a straw, and as soon as you feel the tea coming through into your mouth, slam the whole thing in your mouth
14:18:02 <audigex> It's called a Tim Tam Slam and it's legit one of my favourite things
14:18:35 <audigex> Anyone saying "I've done that with a KitKat/Twix/Penguin" is to be beaten to within an inch of their life
14:19:15 <belajalilija> what the fuck did i just read
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14:20:56 <johnfranklin> Hmm, is it the Aussie version of Kit Kat
14:21:25 <_pruple> audigex: sure, but woolworths here now has chocolate hobnobs
14:21:37 <_pruple> better than timtams any day of the week
14:21:52 <peter1138> Different kettle of fish.
14:23:12 <johnfranklin> Hmm, when I was in Bulgaria I found anything “sweet” was so cheap. 100g of dark chocolate could be less than EUR 1.
14:23:41 <belajalilija> yeah the balkans are cheap
14:24:06 <belajalilija> you can probably get 100g of dark chocolate here for less than a euro tbh
14:24:11 <belajalilija> it just wont be very good
14:24:51 <belajalilija> i remember in school i used to get those 27p 100g bars of chocolate from sainsburys and sell them for £1
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15:41:38 <audigex> LordAro: The tim tams or openttd on the car? 😂
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16:54:02 <LordAro> i refuse to acknowledge the latter's existence
16:54:26 <audigex> I will now post all bug reports using only savegames created on my car
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17:03:37 <LordAro> "closed custom build"
17:07:01 <audigex> Reopened, factory spec car no custom parts
17:07:49 <audigex> 6 page debate regarding not being a pedantic dick
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17:49:20 <peter1138> Hmm, can't download files being with "infra"... would those be...
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20:28:37 <peter1138> My cursed MS Teams experience has infiltrated Outlook as well...
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