IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2024-05-06
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01:29:57 <efessel> FYI just checked, no desyncs since 14.1 on reddit1
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04:41:16 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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05:49:43 <truebrain> efessel: W00p! Nice 🙂
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07:12:46 <DorpsGek> - Add: summary for week 18 of 2024 (by OpenTTD Survey)
07:19:44 <truebrain> Steam down to 52% .. it is funny to see how that changes over the weeks 😄
07:20:04 <truebrain> it also means that, if you extrapolate based on the survey results, Steam is only half our user-base 😛
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07:44:08 <kuhnovic> Turns out also non-steam users don't like NPF 😛
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07:47:02 <asasnat> I never even used NPF but if it ever gets nuked I'll build temples in memory of it
09:43:39 <kuhnovic> truebrain: Would there be a way to measure whether or not people are using aqueducts?
09:50:41 <truebrain> kuhnovic: if you make a PR for that, I am sure you can
09:51:58 <kuhnovic> You should have become a politician :p
09:53:02 <kuhnovic> Alright, I might look into that soon. IMO aqueducts are a just difficult to build and a bit pointless, but lets ask the players.
09:54:17 <peter1138> Oh, pressing the green flag to start my buses helps. </pro-player>
09:55:16 <Eddi|zuHause> well, don't you need to press the red flag so it turns green?
09:56:53 <peter1138> Spacing is a little better in master 🙂
09:57:03 <peter1138> That probably breaks someone's workflow.
10:02:07 <peter1138> kuhnovic: Bane your life?
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10:02:46 <reldred> peter1138: Looks good, screw peoples workflows 😛
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10:34:23 <_jgr_> kuhnovic: I'm not sure what is difficult about them. In any case it'd be difficult to remove them without creating a savegame compatibility problem
10:35:04 <peter1138> Yes, aqueducts can't be removed, sorry if you were thinking of that.
10:36:00 <emperorjake> I love aqueducts, more compact than a tunnel under a canal
10:37:36 <ahyangyi> I guess if many players use aqueducts, that's a sign that we need moar aqueduct-related features, but not the other way around 😛
10:46:06 <kuhnovic> Well I guess I have my answer 😉
11:10:04 <andythenorth> manual industry placement then....
11:11:14 <andythenorth> - some kind of layout tile indicator when building?
11:11:14 <andythenorth> - grf can move the location point from the N tile to arbitrary other tile(s)?
11:11:14 <andythenorth> - circular tile search around the player's chosen tile, up to about 16 tile radius? (maybe only on a grf flag, or a player preference?)
11:11:42 <andythenorth> building these coast industries is ... yuck
11:14:25 <kuhnovic> I think an indicator would be hugely helpful. Right now it's guesswork, click until you get lucky.
11:14:41 <emperorjake> Doesn't citymania have something like that?
11:16:28 <peter1138> Something like that, yes
11:24:01 <kuhnovic> I've messed with the highlighting code at some point. It sucks balls.
11:43:05 <reldred> even just the white square hilight like what's under the mouse cursor would suffice. Doesn't need to be the full ghosted view like what CM has
12:06:58 <peter1138> Hmm, even with the new callback stuff for the service interval settings, it's not quite right.
12:15:06 <peter1138> Ah, this player has one-way path signals everywhere, except at the platforms where they have two-way block signals instead. Good good.
12:23:35 <emperorjake> They weren't hidden well enough
12:25:10 <_jgr_> Hiding them doesn't retroactively remove them from existing players' memories, tutorials, etc
12:26:18 <peter1138> That's why we need to remove them 😉
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12:52:48 <andythenorth> how does the highlighting work given that layouts are variable?
12:53:19 <andythenorth> does it just show one of the layouts if the locations is valid?
12:57:38 <peter1138> You need to get the layout for whatever tile is highlighted. And the client would have to provide a random seed in advance, perhaps.
12:57:52 <andythenorth> I quite like the circular tile search idea 😛
12:57:58 <andythenorth> but it might break someone's workflow
12:58:35 <andythenorth> I could do that in GS though
12:58:41 <andythenorth> there is a tile picker for the storybook
12:59:10 <andythenorth> I could ban player industry construction, and write a storybook page to do it
12:59:57 <andythenorth> nobody can complain in a PR though
13:00:00 <peter1138> I wonder how the person writing an admin interface in GS got on...
13:00:52 <andythenorth> storybook as general purpose debugger
13:00:55 <andythenorth> 'general purpose'
13:01:00 <andythenorth> until it crashes, or is slow
13:01:50 <andythenorth> seems I need to add a 'refresh' button
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14:21:45 <andythenorth> peter1138: did you break the workflow?
14:32:01 <peter1138> They probably expected more than that.
14:32:24 <peter1138> Although being a transfer leg it's largely irrelevant anyway.
14:33:35 <peter1138> Ah yes, potentially making more than than before as the pick up stop is further away.
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15:23:53 <talltyler> I want to add yellow signals and only touch one pathfinder 😛
15:25:50 <andythenorth> just make it YAPF only
15:26:11 <andythenorth> that should persuade thousands of players to switch over
15:27:20 <talltyler> We can make the whole game YAPF only
15:27:58 <andythenorth> don't take me seriously
15:28:12 <andythenorth> I am here avoiding some work that has to be done on a UK bank holiday 😛
15:28:54 <andythenorth> do we have anything methods built into the game for a circular tile search? 😛
15:29:08 <talltyler> 12209 removes NPF, thus making the game YAPF only 🙂
15:30:46 <andythenorth> I reckon a search around `tile` in CmdBuildIndustry is possibly a one liner, but who am I to make such guesses? 😛 🙂
15:31:11 <andythenorth> I think it's an extra loop around the loop in L2132
15:32:13 <andythenorth> looks like we have `CircularTileSearch`
15:32:39 <talltyler> Yes, it takes a callback which defines the succeeded/failed decision
15:34:57 <Eddi|zuHause> note that "circle" in this context is a rectangle
15:36:36 <andythenorth> all circles are polygons, according to my maths education
15:36:42 <andythenorth> and squares are polygons
15:44:38 <Eddi|zuHause> a "circle" is a set of points that have the same distance to the center. so the shape is defined by which distance calculation you use
15:44:40 <_glx_> depends on the number of points used to draw the circle
15:50:18 <andythenorth> are circles finite?
16:00:49 <andythenorth> try building Ports anyone? 🙂 (available in any economy)
16:00:55 <andythenorth> cheat some money 😛
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16:10:26 <pickpacket> peter1138: What’s CZTR?
16:11:09 <peter1138> The stuff you were looking at. Probably.
16:11:56 <merni> talltyler: Unfortunately I cannot look at this until Thursday at least
16:12:13 <merni> Well, I can look "at" it, I can't look "into" it in any sort of depth
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16:17:33 <talltyler> I have a lot of work ahead of me before pathfinder choice becomes an issue
16:19:54 <peter1138> Hmm, nm with a gcc-compiled openttd is bizarre.
16:23:31 <_jgr_> talltyler: You shouldn't need to modify the pathfinder(s) to make that work
16:37:50 <peter1138> Truebrain breaking this person's workflow... Every station is built like this.
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16:40:25 <peter1138> Maybe the trains are so slow that the slightly shorter delivery time makes all the difference.
16:41:09 <truebrain> I doubt that is the intent 😛
16:43:15 <truebrain> hmmm .. there are zero (!) downloads by 14.1 on BaNaNaS ..
16:45:29 <peter1138> _openttd_content_version is probably still 14.0
16:46:10 <peter1138> Oh it is autogenerated.
16:46:12 <truebrain> should just be `${REV_MAJOR}.${REV_MINOR}`
16:46:49 <peter1138> const char _openttd_content_version[] = "14.0";
16:46:56 <peter1138> 14.1 produces that.
16:47:11 <truebrain> it isn't any issue, but still odd
16:47:59 <truebrain> ah, someone forgot to change a value
16:48:53 <peter1138> We probably forgot to document it, because the documentation was followed 🙂
16:49:26 <peter1138> But the game itself knows it is 14.1, so...
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16:50:57 <truebrain> we are a bit weird in how we deduce the version for different parts of our system
16:51:01 <truebrain> it makes sense, it just feels weird 😛
16:51:16 <truebrain> most systems use the git information
16:51:28 <truebrain> but for the content service, that is often unwanted, as that means dev-builds wouldn't be able to see the right content
16:51:31 <truebrain> so it uses CMakeLists.txt version 😛
16:55:29 <truebrain> and as of today, talltyler can also publish Steam releases 🙂
16:56:03 <peter1138> 14.2 then, with just the version bumped? :p
16:56:23 <peter1138> (Fortunately there is no reason to have 14.1-only content.
17:00:22 <truebrain> and now trying to find how to give someone rights to post news etc on Steam ..
17:02:00 <truebrain> I think I did it ....
17:06:05 <peter1138> Hmm, downsizing my fleet because upgrading from 30mph/20t to 55mph/25t is such a massive leap in technology.
17:06:25 <andythenorth> one train per line
17:06:26 <truebrain> more than 50% faster!
17:10:03 <andythenorth> we ever considered alpha tinting those sprites progressively 😛
17:10:33 <andythenorth> it always looks like a bug to me
17:11:10 <peter1138> What is alpha tinting?
17:15:17 <andythenorth> that's just a bodge in photoshop
17:20:47 <Eddi|zuHause> what part of that is "alpha" and what is "tinting"?
17:23:28 <andythenorth> it's a layer tinted black
17:23:33 <andythenorth> then set to 30% alpha
17:23:53 <andythenorth> to be strict, the layer is tinted to 100% black
17:24:10 <andythenorth> which distorts the usual meaning of tint, but is mathematically accurate
17:24:27 <andythenorth> oh it's shade not tint, I get those tranposed
17:26:20 <andythenorth> the vehicle industry uses 'tinted' to mean 'shaded' for windows
17:27:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not convinced any of that answers my questions
17:28:45 <andythenorth> try a different question 🙂
17:29:35 <Eddi|zuHause> which (supposedly UI) problem is that meant to solve?
17:29:46 <andythenorth> that the overlapping vehicles look like a bug
17:30:20 <andythenorth> it looks like something I see sometimes in grf dev, when vehicle length doesn't match sprite dimensions
17:31:57 <Eddi|zuHause> so really, you're having suppressed memory issues that nobody else will have, and want to solve that with ... whatever?
17:33:56 <andythenorth> for a feature I don't use, yes
17:39:47 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, back to "alpha tinting"... how is that different from our normal method of recolouring? and how is that bneficial?
17:47:22 <andythenorth> how do we normally do it?
18:01:29 <Eddi|zuHause> there's an 8bit way and a 32bit way for recolouring
18:01:54 <Eddi|zuHause> 8bit is a translation table, 32bit is a semi-transparent overlay
18:05:35 <peter1138> Or a translation table
18:11:01 <peter1138> Hmm, something happened with Minecraft terrain generation such that there isn't an obvious border between old and new terrain. Interesting.
18:14:21 <andythenorth> how did we shade the river slopes?
18:14:28 <andythenorth> 32bpp semi-transparent overlay?
18:14:45 <peter1138> That's part of the sprite.
18:17:22 <Eddi|zuHause> changes in water level?
18:28:53 <peter1138> In some old beta version, yeah.
18:29:24 <peter1138> beta 1.7 to beta 1.8 dropped it one level.
18:29:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that was what? 15 years ago?
18:36:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the past 10 years collapse into 1 anyway...
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19:32:14 <_glx_> signal right after the crossing, typical deadlock
19:33:51 <peter1138> Cause is blocked station... separate drop-off and pick-up stations, but only one path through both. D'oh!
19:34:41 <peter1138> Must avoid temptation to fix it 🙂
19:37:59 <_glx_> well there's a path to skip the pickup
19:38:13 <_glx_> but none to skip the drop-off
19:39:36 <_glx_> misplaced signals are not helping
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20:20:45 <audigex> And even if there's a path to skip both, eventually you'll probably clog both regardless
20:22:20 <_glx_> the main issue in this layout is the signal between the 2 stations
20:22:58 <_glx_> well and also the 2 signals after the entry split
20:23:23 <_glx_> trains are just allowed to wait in unsuitable places
20:34:59 <peter1138> Hmm, maybe I should load up some NewGRFs.
20:35:33 <audigex> _glx_: The ones after the entry split aren't causing any issues here but yeah they're not well placed
20:36:46 <_glx_> they do, because the oil train is waiting for goods ones
20:36:49 <audigex> I mean, I agree, they will cause issues eventually - but not in this instance
20:37:10 <audigex> The train waiting at the signals after the entry split isn't blocking anything that wouldn't be blocked anyway
20:37:17 <andythenorth> is this someone's save?
20:38:08 <_glx_> yes but without the signal between station the other oil train might be able to leave but the waiting oil train will still wait
20:39:58 <audigex> Yeah that signal between the stations I 100% agree, it's causing this particular problem
20:39:58 <audigex> I'm just saying the other one isn't actually causing a problem here. If that train was sitting further back it would make zero difference
20:40:16 <audigex> In other scenarios it would potentially matter
20:42:49 <_glx_> if oil train doesn't enter, goods trains won't load, and deadlock happens
20:43:03 <andythenorth> missing escape depot
20:43:09 <andythenorth> there's an obvious place for one
20:43:28 <_glx_> no need for escape depot if you can ensure drop off
20:43:54 <andythenorth> playstyle debates 😛
20:44:17 <andythenorth> if trains > platforms, I usually build escape depot
20:44:25 <andythenorth> unless it's an isolated leg of the network
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20:45:37 <peter1138> In an isolation system, entry can only increase.
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21:09:15 <andythenorth> the docs do say that
21:09:32 <andythenorth> it's a fair interpretation in this case
21:14:19 <talltyler> And someone deleted the Bananas website
21:20:13 <truebrain> Empty page for me 😦
21:20:34 <truebrain> Sorry, I forgot /s 😛
21:22:54 <ahyangyi> Can access the page, but not as fruity as expected 😛
21:24:13 <truebrain> In the top right corner there are some bananas for you
21:25:37 <peter1138> Companies are locked even in single player 🙂
21:25:51 <ahyangyi> truebrain: Yeah, that's why I didn't say "not fruity" 😛
21:26:25 <truebrain> Pfff, not enough for you? 😛
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21:46:50 <peter1138> That did not clear the approval 🙂
21:50:00 <peter1138> So I was going to to make a constant for the picker preivew size.
21:50:06 <peter1138> Except it differs :S
21:50:54 <peter1138> Tempted to standardise it.
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