IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-07-04
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06:04:34 <andythenorth> well that forum post
06:04:46 <andythenorth> but last time I pointed out that LC is a bully
06:04:56 <andythenorth> I got mod warned and threatened with a ban
06:05:02 <andythenorth> that's how we do things
06:06:29 <andythenorth> and o/c any contributor who dislikes being called to account
06:06:41 <andythenorth> can go and find a post where "the devs" have equally crossed a line
06:06:59 <andythenorth> because someone usually does
06:07:57 <andythenorth> was it lunch yet?
06:23:15 <pickpacket> andythenorth: which post?
06:23:52 <andythenorth> suggestions forum, it's all just a normal ding-dong until the all caps YOU ARE THE PERPETRATOR stuff
06:24:33 <andythenorth> hardly encourages contributors
06:24:40 <andythenorth> doesn't look like a healthy community
06:24:48 <andythenorth> I mean...it's not a healthy community and never has been
06:25:26 <andythenorth> but forums never are
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06:39:53 <kamnet> I should have stepped in sooner and took action, but I wanted to get feedback from other mods - never did. Eddi's response was much kinder than what mine might have been.
06:46:29 * LordAro gets some popcorn for thread reading
06:48:41 *** truebrain has joined #openttd
06:48:41 <truebrain> honestly, it is more sad than popcorn worthy
06:53:47 <andythenorth> kamnet: Thanks though
06:54:01 <andythenorth> Very balanced moderator comment
06:54:33 <andythenorth> It's a fairly thankless task, being a mod, probably under-appreciated 🙂
06:58:25 <LordAro> survey soon, so that we can point to the results and say "no you're wrong"
06:58:33 <LordAro> or perhaps, "no we're wrong"
07:00:20 <truebrain> and we should be careful with words like "nonsense" 🙂
07:01:25 <truebrain> oeh, talking about survey reminds me about releases, and that I needed to check if OpenSFX now released correctly 🙂
07:04:14 <kamnet> andythenorth: I'm trying not to be the cagey lion that I was 10-15 years ago. I'm learning some new things in this phase of my life and trying to put that to good use.
07:08:31 <andythenorth> it's appreciated 🙂
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08:00:00 <peter1138> Wrangling the sprite font cache again...
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09:48:25 <locosage> LordAro: how would survey solve anything in aircraft crash case?
09:48:37 <locosage> and in general survey results would need to be taken with a grain of salt
09:48:40 <locosage> "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
09:48:56 <locosage> I bet the main thing it'll show is that 95% use default settings 😆
09:58:13 <Rubidium_> the whole reason aircraft are so unbalanced is because they do not crash (enough) :D
10:03:27 <locosage> well, that's one way to balance aircraft xD
10:04:14 <locosage> but it doesn't rly work at the start of the game
10:04:26 <locosage> and late game aircraft aren't much of a problem anyway
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10:27:37 <sittinbythefire> That whole thread has me ROFLing.
10:27:37 <sittinbythefire> "I should be able to force Antonov AN-225s to land at my private airstrip located in a small field perfectly fine with no consequences. Forcing me to announce to my millions of followers who inspect every detail of my singleplayer savegames that I'm a cheater for wanting to do so is absolute blasphemy."
10:27:37 <sittinbythefire> Like, what the actual fuck is even going on with that argument? I'm glad I skipped over that thread until now because I'm not sure I would have been nice either 🙂
10:29:42 <locosage> there is some rationale in it
10:30:13 <locosage> game doesn't stop you from landing an225 on small airport, in fact, that's probably the most profittable way to do it
10:30:24 <locosage> there is just some chance to crash and random isn't always good
10:30:52 <locosage> and cheats like that are just inconvenient settings
10:35:06 <sittinbythefire> Yeah, I guess the big problem is that the setting is called "None*", which I kind of agree with the sentiment of "none should mean none". Even though there's an asterisk in the name I guess most people don't read that description, so maybe it needs rephrasing?
10:37:29 <locosage> also, if you look at good plane start, A21 on small airports is the most profitable to do it
10:37:51 <locosage> but there is like 10% chance it'll fail and you'll have to restart
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10:37:55 <emperorjake> How about, if the plane crashes are set to None, the game simply disallows you from sending large planes to small airports (which would be conisistent with other errors, like sending an articulated vehicle to a bay stio). Unless the cheat is enabled, of course.
10:38:17 <locosage> locosage: which is a particularly good way to balance the game
10:39:44 <locosage> emperorjake: why can't "none" just mean none? why add side-effects to a simple setting
10:40:39 <emperorjake> So that's just the original behaviour from before the change?
10:40:53 <sittinbythefire> Yeah, that kind of makes sense actually, why not just disable the ability to send large planes to small airports to avoid this problem in the first place?
10:41:35 <locosage> sittinbythefire: yeah, but it should be a separate setting imo
10:42:00 <sittinbythefire> locosage: Yes, I agree 🙂
10:42:42 <locosage> solution to every openttd problem but one, just add settings xD
10:43:23 <emperorjake> Yeah it is a bit convoluted to have settings change multiple things like that. How about a setting for plane crashes where none means none, and a cheat that allows big planes to land at small airports (not affecting crashes). That way if plane crashes are set to enabled, it would still follow the original behaviour of increased chance of crashing at a small airport even with the cheat enabled.
10:44:11 <Rubidium_> why? If the previous OpenTTD is better, then just use the previous version of OpenTTD. Nothing is forcing you to use a newer OpenTTD, except maybe choosing to use a system that automatically updates... but even then you are still allowed to just download the older version and use that
10:44:44 <Rubidium_> no need to add a new setting, as every version of OpenTTD is already sort-of a setting anyway
10:46:30 <locosage> for a public server using old version isn't a exactly a good option
10:47:02 <locosage> and any multiplayer in general
10:48:27 <locosage> btw, I recently got request to backport new cmlient featueres to 1.10 or smth xD
10:48:46 <Eddi|zuHause> how dangerous is reading the forum today?
10:48:49 <emperorjake> It's not that big a deal actually. When I loaded the NetTrans save in the newer version and my planes started crashing, I was forced to bear the minor inconvenience of enabling a cheat 😅
10:49:07 <emperorjake> but I do agree with the sentiment that None should mean None
10:50:55 <emperorjake> Arguably a less convenient change was the more recent one where sea level tiles on the edge always flood, I had to redesign part of a rail line because of that one
10:51:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't played with sea level edges in ages
10:58:11 <sittinbythefire> locosage: God if that isn't the truth 😆 I genuinely can't think of a game with more settings than OpenTTD 😄
11:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> they sort of accumulate over the years... there probably hasn't been another game with similar amount of development hours :p
11:20:53 <peter1138> Eddi, dunno if it's safe, but I'll probably stop looking
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11:43:47 <alfagamma_0007> sittinbythefire: No wonder why playing openttd sometimes feels like flying a 747
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11:44:12 <talltyler> “Why do developers only discuss development on the GitHub development platform and not on the forum where I can accuse them of ruining the game without the inconvenience of signing up for a GitHub account?”
11:45:06 <truebrain> talltyler: like that stopped them 😛
11:45:06 <alfagamma_0007> Isn't that obvious
11:45:55 <truebrain> argh, CORS ruining my day .... what did I need to fix to get CORS to behave again ...
11:47:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i've been meaning to raise the awareness of an influx of new (steam) player generations who never heard of forums before...
11:48:03 <Eddi|zuHause> but i can't find the right phrasing, and it's probably not the right moment
11:49:08 <Eddi|zuHause> kamnet: that topic is probably safe to lock, i don't think anything constructive will come out
11:49:59 <talltyler> I’ll freely admit that I reviewed pickpacket’s exclusive transport rights PR in protest of the absolutely ridiculous thread about the proposed change and its accusations of wanting to hand out knives to children to watch them disembowel each other. I do think it’s a good change, but if you’re going to be rude to new contributors I’m going to be even nicer to them. 😈
11:50:52 <truebrain> that is a good instinct to have 🙂
11:51:41 <truebrain> w00p, fixed my CORS issue \o/
11:52:23 <truebrain> but honestly, I should just fix bootstrapping works for emscripten instead of this hack .. meh .. for now, let's fix the issue at hand 🙂
11:56:20 <truebrain> horrible commit message, but nothing worked 😛
12:01:23 <truebrain> Emscripten needs a bit more attention .. but okay, infra migration first .. 😄
12:01:31 <truebrain> multiplayer stuff .... that are a lot of small services ...
12:17:05 <truebrain> I wonder if it is really worth still running the old multiplayer protocol ..
12:17:35 <truebrain> 20-ish servers still use it, 3 of them running 1.3.0 😛
12:17:39 <truebrain> pretty sure someone forgot about those servers
12:17:49 <truebrain> but okay, I think it is also a relative small effort, so let's see!
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12:24:08 <locosage> Shocking! Developers are about to kill multiplayer in the last good version! 🤣
12:25:16 <_glx_> they have no clients right now, but I can see one 1.9.3 client
12:25:46 <_jgr_> To paraphrase Stroustrup, there are two kinds of games, the kind that everyone complains about and the kind that nobody plays
12:28:28 <alfagamma_0007> I agree with JGR
12:29:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i hereby file a complaint against _glx_ and _jgr_ having the same name pattern, the same length, and the same colour
12:29:27 <_glx_> blame your client for the colour
12:29:45 <truebrain> Eddi|zuHause: filed in /dev/null. You have a GREAT day now.
12:31:07 <ahyangyi> Eddi|zuHause: Use a font where upper case letters are bigger than small case letters
12:31:18 <truebrain> hmm .. this is a bit of a pita .. so to reuse your invite-code, you need a secret, which is given the first time you get an invite-code from the server. This is only encrypted .. and most likely if we migrate, I cannot preserve that .. which means everyones invite-code will change ..
12:31:26 <truebrain> I wonder if this is an actual problem I have to put energy in to avoid
12:31:32 <Eddi|zuHause> ahyangyi: it's all lowercase in the IRC bridge
12:31:32 <truebrain> or that nobody actually shares their invite-code like that
12:31:48 <_glx_> won't help ahyangyi discord forced us to use lowercase
12:31:50 <andythenorth> one day...a discord
12:32:16 <ahyangyi> not seeing the other side of the bridge/tunnel hurts
12:32:32 <Eddi|zuHause> "a discord" sounds like an oxymoron
12:33:14 <truebrain> where did you get that URL from?
12:33:16 <truebrain> it is missing zeros ..
12:33:30 <truebrain> ha, jump-to-today is missing them
12:33:35 <truebrain> all others are correct ..
12:33:47 <locosage> truebrain: I store invite codes in db
12:33:47 <locosage> Don't share them though
12:33:51 <truebrain> yeah, it works, that is not the point 🙂
12:34:43 <truebrain> more that indexers don't actually understand that; so all URLs should be the same 😛
12:38:11 <_glx_> ok let's read emscripten readme to see how to build it locally so I could try supporting bootstrap
12:38:32 <truebrain> it worked for me a moment ago! But you do need Docker 🙂 (or podman)
12:40:15 <_glx_> but first `winget upgrade powershell` as the "there's a nwe version" message starts to be annoying
12:45:40 <peter1138> Whatever happened to Windows update doing that...
13:12:13 <truebrain> `aioredis.exceptions.InvalidResponse: Protocol Error: b'HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request'` .. BOOOOEEEEE
13:18:48 <truebrain> it helps if I lookup the redis service, instead of the nginx ... lol, what a derp 🙂
13:20:58 <truebrain> hmm, the emscripten CI run was visited by OOM
13:21:02 <truebrain> they did not get along
13:26:14 <truebrain> `Dropping invalid packet from NNN:55592: impossible length field of 0 in packet` WE HAVE LIFTOFF. At least .. communication is working 🙂 Now to wire up some more pieces ...
13:35:57 <Eddi|zuHause> "getting an error means we were successful"? :p
13:40:18 <truebrain> hmm ... `/etc/hosts` doesn't support round-robin it seems .. how am I going to make this call to a SOCKS proxy than resilient against failures and upgrades ..
13:53:03 <truebrain> Eddi|zuHause: `Game Coordinator registered our server with invite code '+RQ5rkVE'` better?
13:53:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not qualified to judge that :p
13:53:49 <truebrain> I guess I can just repeat `To paraphrase Stroustrup, there are two kinds of games, the kind that everyone complains about and the kind that nobody plays` 😛
13:54:17 <_glx_> ```CMake Warning at cmake/LinkPackage.cmake:21 (message):
13:54:17 <_glx_> nlohmann_json not found; compiling OpenTTD without nlohmann_json is
13:54:17 <_glx_> strongly discouraged```
13:54:26 <_glx_> but they should be in the docker image
13:54:39 <truebrain> yeah, emscripten can't post the survey anyway, so it doesn't help even if it was installed 😛
13:54:51 <truebrain> so I couldn't be bothered figuring out how to get it in emscripten
13:55:20 <_glx_> oh so the patch is in the folder but unused
13:55:31 <truebrain> owh, no, I did patch it in?
13:55:41 <truebrain> hmm .. sorry, my memory can be a bit fuzzy
13:55:59 <truebrain> you are right, I did spend the effort adding it 😮
13:56:27 <truebrain> ah, yes, I wanted to make sure talltyler could update his heightmap JSON loading thingy 😛
13:57:29 <truebrain> ``` You are using an emscripten SDK without nlohmann-json support. Please
13:57:29 <truebrain> apply 'emsdk-nlohmann_json.patch' to your local emsdk installation.```
13:57:32 <truebrain> even that I made nice 😛
13:57:50 <truebrain> no clue why it fails; would require someone looking into it 🙂
14:01:28 <_glx_> ``` => [4/5] COPY emsdk-nlohmann-json.patch /
14:01:28 <_glx_> => [5/5] RUN cd /emsdk/upstream/emscripten && patch -p1 < /emsdk-nlohmann-json.patch```
14:01:35 <_glx_> yeah it really should work
14:03:02 <_glx_> it's building now (I wrote a little powershell script because the readme stuff is not windows friendly)
14:03:58 <_glx_> it's almost good, just needed to adapt paths, and remove -u
14:04:23 <truebrain> I like podman a lot these days, because `-u` becomes completely deprecated
14:04:27 <truebrain> which is really nice 🙂
14:06:21 <truebrain> okay, STUN also worked easy enough .. that was surprising 🙂
14:06:29 <truebrain> I expected a lot more troubles 😛
14:06:56 <truebrain> now to figure out TURN .. which is a bit more tricky ..
14:07:37 <truebrain> as server/client need to end up on the same instance, you can't just scale it sidewards
14:07:44 <truebrain> but you need each on their own port/ip
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14:16:42 <_glx_> 66% (it's not fast to build)
14:17:16 <truebrain> what I do myself is leave the docker open, and run the commands myself
14:17:24 <truebrain> as otherwise it takes even longer
14:17:38 <_glx_> next step will be to add the build folder to IIS
14:17:53 <truebrain> `python3 -m http.server` is my friend 🙂
14:18:06 <_glx_> but I already have a running IIS
14:18:08 <truebrain> (works with any recent Python version; no dependencies needed)
14:26:38 <truebrain> okay ... seems I also have TURN alive and kicking .. just code-wise not in a way I really enjoy, but that can be resolved another time 🙂
14:29:48 <truebrain> owh, it helps if I don't firewall TURN 😛
14:32:02 <truebrain> lol .. the timeout of the dialog to ask if turn is fine is closed quicker than I can click it
14:32:32 <truebrain> `dbg: [net] Connected to turn-preview-1.openttd.org:4974` w00p
14:43:26 <_glx_> yeah the timeout is short
14:43:47 <_glx_> I just went to auto accept
14:44:17 <_glx_> ah build is almost done
14:58:21 <_glx_> that's a good start I guess
15:00:50 <alfagamma_0007> Openttd on browser
15:01:16 <alfagamma_0007> Wasn't peyla experimenting with this some time back?
15:02:50 <_glx_> we use it to preview PRs
15:06:31 <truebrain> all building on our work here 😉
15:08:45 <_glx_> so if I understand that's the result of an abort() call
15:09:19 <truebrain> if you have the map file next to your html file, you can debug the code in the browser
15:09:24 <truebrain> it will tell you where abouts in the code it is
15:09:35 <_glx_> effect of missing baseset and no bootstrap yet ?
15:11:41 <_glx_> hmm but I need a RelWithDebug build I guess
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15:14:14 <truebrain> I guess mainly the question is: should we ask a user before downloading the bootstrap, or just do it, for emscripten
15:14:47 <truebrain> having no font etc means no progress-report .. and that is why I ended up moving it to HTML, so you can show some progress-report
15:14:53 <truebrain> but ... yeah .. updates are a lot more difficult 🙂
15:15:13 <truebrain> time to REST API the crap out of BaNaNaS, instead of a custom TCP? 😛
15:15:42 <_glx_> for me it should be fine to just download
15:22:01 <_glx_> ```-- Performing Test NLOHMANN_JSON_FOUND
15:22:01 <_glx_> -- Performing Test NLOHMANN_JSON_FOUND - Success``` but ```CMake Warning at cmake/LinkPackage.cmake:21 (message):
15:22:01 <_glx_> nlohmann_json not found; compiling OpenTTD without nlohmann_json is
15:22:01 <_glx_> strongly discouraged```
15:22:09 <_glx_> something is really weird
15:25:02 <_glx_> but let's ignore that 🙂
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16:29:46 <locosage> what's the proper way to deal with untracked files in git?
16:30:07 <locosage> I always end up having some random files that I don't want to add but have nowhere else to put
16:31:05 <_glx_> I use `.git\info\exclude` for that
16:32:32 <locosage> do you add every file there or just put them into one directory to exclude?
16:33:43 <ahyangyi> Depending on the reasoning, I guess. If I just don't want to track them because they are random experiments, design notes or other stuff, I'd probably make a second (private) git repo to dump them in
16:33:51 <ahyangyi> So that I still keep track of them, just not publicly
16:34:23 <ahyangyi> But for huge binaries, perhaps just put them in an ignored directory
16:42:44 <truebrain> okay ... I think I can retain the invite-code secrets when migrating .. will have to test, but it seems that way at least 🙂
16:48:14 <truebrain> is it gravedigging, if you find a 7 month old reddit post to comment on? 😄
16:54:11 <Rubidium_> what, reddit is open?
16:54:26 <truebrain> what, reddit still exists?!
17:05:16 <andythenorth> what shall we talk about today?
17:08:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the same thing we talk about every day, bra... wait...
17:09:12 <andythenorth> airport crash chances?
17:13:49 <truebrain> okay, game-coordinator and redis are running fine .. tomorrow we do master-server and master-server-web .. should be doable 🙂
17:13:59 <truebrain> then MAYBE tomorrow I can shut down even more of the old infra \o/ 🙂
17:28:24 <talltyler> I don’t understand most of what you’re doing and talking about, but I’m glad you’re excited about it getting done 🙂
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17:50:36 <frosch123> sounds like "old infra" is replicating itself. i thought it was shut down years ago :p
17:59:05 <LordAro> no, that's old-old-infra
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18:43:23 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:44:00 <peter1138> I had a meal out. The meal was fine, but the dessert was... oof, too much.
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18:47:23 <_zephyris> 2CC base set depots? Base set stations? Any reason the 1CC rather than 2CC recolour is applied to them?
18:47:47 <peter1138> Yes, 2CC doesn't at all in base sets.
18:48:30 <_zephyris> Any reason why not? I can't find any of the 2CC green shades in the original or opengfx sprites.
18:48:47 <_zephyris> (admittedly I haven't done a comprehensive search!)
18:49:17 <_zephyris> 2CC could be used, with no change in behaviour of the common base sets.
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19:06:46 <peter1138> Because it was built around being optional when a NewGRF requested it.
19:07:12 <peter1138> Hmm, so monospace font doesn't have a base-sprite like the rest,.
19:11:49 <peter1138> "Why is my train stopped at this red exit signal" ... "Because you didn't use path signals"
19:12:00 <peter1138> Good job I don't post to Reddit any more.
19:24:39 <frosch123> are we already on mastodon, bluesky or threads?
19:42:25 <peter1138> It's just waiting for Truebrain to create Truestodon ;p
19:42:36 <andythenorth> needs more complaining about planes
19:49:37 <truebrain> peter1138: Truetter
19:50:05 <peter1138> And of course, Truesky
19:50:10 <_glx_> hmm steam upload failed again
19:50:16 <truebrain> frosch123: and soon it is again! Crazy how that works 😛
19:50:35 <_glx_> with a supposed to be fixed error
19:50:59 <truebrain> oof, didn't check anymore for if we actually fixed the issue 😛
19:51:07 <truebrain> I did for the other repos!
19:51:47 <truebrain> hmm .. I guess because we download it one by one now, it isn't in those folders
19:52:08 <_glx_> but it's fine for other downloads
19:52:19 <truebrain> no, they don't prefix it with a folder
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19:53:03 <truebrain> that download-artifact action is just a bit weird
19:53:13 <truebrain> and it seems that all means in subfolders, and one doesn't
19:54:17 <_glx_> oh indeed it fails on source so other packages would fail too, but it never reached that part
19:58:11 <truebrain> indeed, I had to look into the source of the artifact, but the option to create a folder is disabled
19:58:48 <truebrain> so we have to add it back 😄
20:06:20 <_glx_> will need to remember to check actions tomorrow 🙂
20:11:32 <truebrain> If only we had a bot for that 🙂
20:13:16 <_glx_> and I'm still trying to get working emscripten build, master should run as-is
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20:47:36 <peter1138> Hmm, so I need to reload a fontcache without trashing the unicode mapping... and I need to borrow the unicode mapping from another fontcache. I probably need to separate these things.
20:57:43 <andythenorth> I didn't mention GS all day!
20:57:48 <andythenorth> can I have a cookie?
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20:58:58 <brickblock19280> what time zone are we using?
21:00:07 <locosage> probably not mine, day started 59 minutes ago here xD
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21:04:11 <_glx_> ok the issue was IIS, when using python it just works
21:13:47 <brickblock19280> Should tunnels have speed limits?
21:15:44 <brickblock19280> maybe I should just listen to you since it would be less work
21:16:30 <peter1138> Are you physically simulating the build up of pressure around the tunnel opening?
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continue to next day ⏵
