IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-11-15
00:29:48 <truebrain> Lol, luckily it doesn't happen often to you ๐Ÿ˜› ๐Ÿ˜›
00:38:49 <dwfreed> there is some power to powershell that is not possible in linux shell
00:39:24 <dwfreed> it's almost more like a cross between perl and shell (and some of the syntax bits feel very perl-inspired)
00:52:55 <peter1138> Which "linux shell" is that?
01:10:57 *** tesimk has quit IRC (Quit: User went offline on Discord a while ago)
01:45:26 <dwfreed> bash or posix shell
01:47:47 <dwfreed> bash/posix shell pipelines deal purely in text; powershell passes actual objects through pipelines
01:50:37 <dwfreed> the most advanced you can get with bash variables are associative arrays; powershell variables can store those objects returned by cmdlets, and you can retrieve and set properties and call their instance methods
01:51:02 <dwfreed> and powershell is based on .NET, so you have the full power of the .NET runtime available to you
02:06:30 *** herms has quit IRC (Quit: bye)
02:08:06 *** herms has joined #openttd
02:13:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #11459: Change: Adjust spacing and layout of Company windows.
02:29:37 *** Wormnest has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
02:42:34 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #11459: Change: Adjust spacing and layout of Company windows.
03:47:28 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #11459: Change: Adjust spacing and layout of Company windows.
04:32:43 *** keikoz has joined #openttd
06:06:03 *** Flygon has joined #openttd
06:24:25 <johnfranklin[d]> Is there a way to omit some cargo subtypes by parameters?
06:27:50 <johnfranklin[d]> Livery : 0 - Automatic, 1 - Manual,
06:27:50 <johnfranklin[d]> Cargo subtypes:
06:27:50 <johnfranklin[d]> 0: length 3.0, with livery 1;
06:27:50 <johnfranklin[d]> 1: length 3.0, with livery 2;
06:27:50 <johnfranklin[d]> 2: length 3.5, with livery 1;
06:27:51 <johnfranklin[d]> ...
06:27:51 <johnfranklin[d]> 5: length 4.0, with livery 2.
06:27:53 <johnfranklin[d]> Set the parameter to 1 to choose 6 subtypes, and 0 to choose 3 (0-1, 2-3, 4-5 combined).
06:29:22 <johnfranklin[d]> Or better to use variants (just as Tyler has said, but it would omit those who use 12.2 and before... are these versions really outdated?)
06:29:44 *** keikoz has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
06:34:28 *** virtualrandomnumber has joined #openttd
06:34:39 *** virtualrandomnumber has quit IRC ()
06:55:12 <andythenorth> Lol cargo subtypes
06:55:51 <andythenorth> Hard to believe people still voluntarily smash themselves in the face with that brick
06:57:11 <andythenorth> Yes you can omit them, just switch on the parameter to switches that each define different cargo subtypes
07:20:46 <johnfranklin[d]> good morning andy
08:09:14 <LordAro> o/
09:14:25 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #11459: Change: Adjust spacing and layout of Company windows.
09:16:38 <peter1138> lol cargo subtypes
09:19:30 <peter1138> Check to see how prevalent pre-13.4 is. Yes, that doesn't correlate directly with offline players.
09:19:48 <bungus> why the bad rap on cargo subtypes, cause they are a pain in the ass?
09:20:01 *** debdog has joined #openttd
09:24:31 <peter1138> Is it because they're terrible?
09:33:14 <peter1138> Ooh, the autosave interval drifts.
09:38:05 <peter1138> Makes sense, we accumulate ms deltas, so realtime's perception of time is skewed.
09:43:06 <pickpacket> What are cargo subtypes?
09:44:39 <emperorjake> Cargo subtypes will never die
09:44:45 <emperorjake> Also known as "livery refits"
09:44:48 <andythenorth> peter1138: yes, but it upsets people when we say that
09:44:59 <andythenorth> "into every life, a little rain must fall"
09:45:30 <andythenorth> I should be kinder
09:45:55 <peter1138> pickpacket, a bad idea from TTDPatch.
09:48:36 <emperorjake>
09:48:36 <emperorjake> Best livery refits
09:49:34 * peter1138 throws up a little.
09:50:26 <andythenorth> it makes complete sense though
09:50:55 <andythenorth> logically, trains always only have the correct livery for their cargo
09:50:58 <andythenorth> total realism
09:53:11 <peter1138> FIRS uses the same icon for eight cargo types. :)
09:53:54 <andythenorth> is it a metal coil?
09:54:00 <peter1138> Yes.
09:54:07 * andythenorth hides
09:54:11 <peter1138> At least, I think it's meant to be.
09:55:44 <pickpacket> Well... I made custom carriages for tea leaves and tea for two reasons: 1) goods wagons couldn't be refitted to those cargoes at the time, and -- most importantly -- I wanted to see which carriages carried them at a glance
09:55:50 <peter1138[d]>
09:55:55 <peter1138> It might actually be Lego.
09:55:58 <andythenorth> ^ those split easily
09:56:33 <peter1138[d]>
09:57:36 <peter1138> Sort by > Cargo Icon
09:58:34 <johnfranklin[d]> andythenorth: No matter how kind you are, German children are kinder.
09:58:41 <andythenorth> well played
10:04:53 <pickpacket> lol
10:20:25 *** tokai has joined #openttd
10:20:25 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
10:30:12 <bungus> peter1138: okay, I see what you mean now
10:48:44 <peter1138>
10:48:48 <peter1138> lol
10:50:44 <bungus> X-TREME programming practices
10:51:22 <bungus> sounds like a pitch from a dotcom bubble company
11:12:21 <tokai> Is that the Apple method? :)
11:35:53 <LordAro> lol
12:04:01 <peter1138> Apple are entirely competent...
12:06:32 <LordAro> oof
12:09:34 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler approved pull request #11459: Change: Adjust spacing and layout of Company windows.
12:43:48 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN merged pull request #11459: Change: Adjust spacing and layout of Company windows.
12:56:28 *** keikoz has joined #openttd
13:36:59 <andythenorth> "slows down moral"
14:03:16 *** _aD has joined #openttd
14:47:57 <goddess_ishtar> emperorjake: oh, so "livery refits" are literally just refits for the same cargo that just change the livery?
14:59:51 <talltyler> Yes, or other silly things like the length (number of sections) in an articulated vehicle, gear ratios, etc
15:08:04 <_glx_> and doesn't work with autoreplace
15:15:14 <goddess_ishtar> What's the better way to handle that?
15:17:58 <_glx_> variants, but this can quickly fill the "buy new engine" list
15:20:43 <goddess_ishtar> Doesn't OpenTTD 13 let you group engines?
15:21:39 <talltyler> Yeah, creating a smart hierarchy seems to be the trick
15:21:58 <_glx_> grouping came with variants
15:22:34 <goddess_ishtar> oh wait, "variant" is an actual thing, not just having separate locomotives with the same properties?
15:23:04 <_glx_> variants are separate engines, but grouped together in the list
15:23:11 <goddess_ishtar> oh no I'm an idiot, "variants" is just - yeah
15:23:30 <peter1138> grouping/variants is the same thing :D
15:23:56 <peter1138> And exists precisely because cargo subtype refits are bad.
15:25:37 <goddess_ishtar> I know some grfs have weird janky ways of offering multiple liveries like flipping the vehicle in the depot
15:27:20 <peter1138> Let's not all point at andythenorth here ;)
15:31:08 <LordAro> ๐Ÿ‘‰ andythenorth
15:31:31 *** Smedles_ has quit IRC (Quit: - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
15:31:38 *** Smedles has joined #openttd
15:35:23 <goddess_ishtar> also I can't remember the proper way to have carriages react to other carriages or locomotives in the consist, because livery overrides were also bad
15:35:23 <goddess_ishtar> it's just a callback on the wagon checking for the presence of the other wagon, right?
15:36:42 <_pruple> a var, not a callback
15:36:49 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
15:38:13 <_pruple> you can check the ID of the first vehicle, count other vehicle IDs, test your position in the train as a whole / in a chain of the same ID, etc. lots you can do to make "automatic" consists.
15:43:39 <goddess_ishtar> can you check the wagons immediately adjacent to a wagon?
15:57:53 *** nielsm has joined #openttd
16:16:33 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
16:20:00 <talltyler> goddess_ishtar: That was replaced by variants ๐Ÿ™‚
16:22:24 <goddess_ishtar> I really need to actually start coding at some point ๐Ÿ™ƒ
16:22:52 <_pruple> goddess_ishtar: yes
16:23:45 <goddess_ishtar> I remember reading the OpenGFX Mars thread and someone said that wasn't possible at the time, glad it is now
16:25:41 <goddess_ishtar> goddess_ishtar: I have plenty of ideas, it's just that they need sprites and I can't make any of those
16:35:11 <_pruple> goddess_ishtar: in nfo you can do it with var 61. I'm not seeing an equivalent in the nml specs though...
16:35:26 <goddess_ishtar> bleh
16:35:40 <goddess_ishtar> I'd like to avoid NFO
16:36:54 <_pruple> understandable. ๐Ÿ™‚ there's no reason for it not to be implemented in nml - either I'm just not seeing it, or someone put it in the do-later basket and forgot about it
16:37:33 <_pruple> 61 is more complicated than most variables because it needs two arguments - the vehicle offset and the var to check - and that means using the temp registers to store the latter.
16:39:41 <goddess_ishtar> there's no provision for "inline NFO" like C has for inline assembly, isn't there?
16:41:50 <FLHerne> you can query variables by number from NFO
16:41:59 <FLHerne> I thought there was something for var 61 though
16:43:08 <FLHerne> Horse has stuff like getbits(var[0x61, 8, 0x00FFFFFF, 0x5F], bits_offset, bits_count)])
16:43:39 <FLHerne> which is I think doing roughly what you're trying to, and suggests there isn't a nicer helper available
16:44:06 <goddess_ishtar> NFO is directly tied to the low-level GRF spec, right?
16:44:59 <FLHerne> yes
16:45:07 <FLHerne> sorry, I meant *from NML
16:45:38 <goddess_ishtar> yeah, I think I see this stuff
16:45:46 <goddess_ishtar> "Variational Action 2"
16:45:48 <FLHerne> just spotted that because I was confused by the question
16:46:18 <goddess_ishtar> Sadly there doesn't seem to be any friendly documentation for it, just technical specs
16:47:45 <goddess_ishtar> So let me get this straight
16:48:14 <goddess_ishtar> You use the `getbits` builtin to query the low-level NFO variable?
16:48:19 <goddess_ishtar> what's the syntax?
16:49:14 <FLHerne> var[params] queries the variable
16:49:36 <FLHerne> getbits is a helper that gets some of the bits, mask-and-shift
16:50:33 <FLHerne> now I'm struggling to find where 'var[]' is documented
16:51:33 <FLHerne> ah
16:51:48 <goddess_ishtar> it's not particularly important, it's more of a curiosity
16:51:59 <FLHerne> it's not 'really' deprecated, just in the sense that most of the time there are better alternatives
16:52:00 <goddess_ishtar> "deprecated syntax" does not sound promising :p
16:52:08 <FLHerne> so not sure it really belongs there
16:52:39 <goddess_ishtar> > Unless the variable is added by an unofficial patch (which will not be supported by NML), it's highly recommended to instead file a feature request at the NML tracker to implement the variable there.
16:52:47 <FLHerne> old NML code used to use var[] a lot more because there were fewer high-level callbacks and helper functions
16:52:59 <_pruple> goddess_ishtar: yes, I was going to say the correct answer might be "file the missing var as an NML bug and hope someone takes pity on you and implements it" ๐Ÿ™‚
16:53:29 <goddess_ishtar> hahaha, the best programming trick
16:53:37 <goddess_ishtar> "get someone else to do the hard work for you"
16:55:29 <_pruple> well, it would benefit more than just you if it were to be implemented
16:56:20 <_pruple> not that it's a particularly useful variable outside BAD FEATURES ๐Ÿ˜‰
17:00:23 <goddess_ishtar> The usecase that OpenGFX Mars planned was "wagons adjacent to an airlock wagon gain a loading speed boost"
17:01:42 <FLHerne> I don't think you can do that
17:01:51 <FLHerne> "not supported during a callback that is used to modify vehicle properties to avoid circular dependencies, which currently limits this variable to callbacks 1D, 2D, 31 and 32 plus outside callback scope."
17:02:32 <FLHerne> which might also be why it's not implemented in NML, because enforcing that would be tricky and it's a bit of a footgun otherwise
17:03:21 <goddess_ishtar> yeah that makes sense
17:05:16 <FLHerne> I think the only thing it's really useful for is graphical tricks
17:05:33 <goddess_ishtar> oh that just reminded me of something
17:06:25 <goddess_ishtar> some train sets have multiple carriages that unlock at certain years, like locomotives do
17:07:06 <goddess_ishtar> I don't like that, but I thought that it might be cool to have wagons that change based on when they were built
17:08:12 <goddess_ishtar> would that be possible/desirable with callbacks and testing the `build_year` variable?
17:09:19 <_pruple> it's absolutely possible, yes, but having vehicles that change stats over time is not a good gameplay feature because it messes with autoreplace
17:09:21 <FLHerne> it's possible, it might be inconvenient for players
17:09:57 <FLHerne> there are some properties (like vehicle length) that shouldn't be changed outside the depot because the game hates it
17:10:10 <goddess_ishtar> _pruple: yeah, that's what I was worried about
17:10:20 <_pruple> eg, if your 50mph wagon turns into a 70mph wagon, you can't use autoreplace to upgrade trains if they're the same vehicle.
17:10:22 <FLHerne> it used to desync multiplayer, now I think it just fails with a warning
17:11:04 <FLHerne> _pruple: I think this is about changing already-built vehicles? I can't remember when callbacks get reevaluated though
17:11:31 <FLHerne> it must be some time except depot visits or the length desync would never occur
17:11:34 <_pruple> well build_year doesn't change for already built vehicles ๐Ÿ™‚
17:11:43 <FLHerne> really?
17:11:51 <FLHerne> oh, duh
17:12:01 <goddess_ishtar> hahaha
17:12:24 <FLHerne> age_in_days, then
17:12:39 <FLHerne> plus build_year, possibly
17:12:51 <_pruple> so yeah, absolutely use build_year for graphical changes, but if you're changing vehicle stats, make it a separate vehicle.
17:13:24 <FLHerne> hm
17:13:34 <FLHerne> current_year is probably easier than that :p
17:14:10 <FLHerne> but changing speed unexpectedly would mess up timetabling and so on
17:14:26 <FLHerne> or cause different trains sharing a route to suddenly have different speeds
17:14:38 <FLHerne> even if the game didn't desync which I'm not sure about :p
17:15:57 <goddess_ishtar> I didn't like having multiple carriages for each era because it struck me as an ugly solution that overcrowded the buy menu, but those reasons make sense
17:20:20 <goddess_ishtar> are there any alternative ways of doing it?
17:20:48 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
17:22:59 <merni> Making old ones unavailable should avoid cluttering buy menu
17:23:03 <_pruple> you can group vehicles as variants to make the unexpanded vehicle list smaller, or you could simply have fewer wagons/eras if you feel like the list is too crowded
17:23:23 <merni> (Except for those who have vehicles never expire on, but they opted in to a cluttered buy menu!)
17:24:03 <_pruple> you can make old wagons unavailable, but don't do it too aggressively, because it interferes with cloning trains.
17:25:02 <_pruple> IH is egregiously bad for that, it retires and reintroduces almost-identical wagons every decade or so, which makes cloning trains impossible because one of the wagons will invariably have expired.
17:26:26 <peter1138> Prossibly a "make clone use a variant if the engine is expired" feature might be useful.
17:26:38 <goddess_ishtar> hmm, would cosmetically varying carriages by buy date and having different *styles* of carriage available instead of different *eras* work?
17:26:51 <goddess_ishtar> so there appears to be more carriages than there actually are
17:27:33 <goddess_ishtar> but the progression of carriages over the eras would feel the same because you're still unlocking better carriages as you go on, they just don't replace the old ones
17:27:55 <merni> goddess_ishtar: not sure I understand what this means
17:28:14 <goddess_ishtar> yeah I'm terrible at explaining things
17:28:23 <peter1138> Pretty sure DBSetXL uses buy date.
17:28:31 <goddess_ishtar> so you'd have at the beginning of the game, just a normal carriage or something
17:28:57 <merni> peter1138: DBSetXL also hard-limits itself to temperate climate :P
17:28:58 <_pruple> definitely
17:28:59 <goddess_ishtar> then later you'd unlock carriages with different capabilities, like a double-decker carriage or a high-speed carriage
17:29:22 <_pruple> merni: that's a TTDPatch thing ๐Ÿ™‚
17:29:39 <goddess_ishtar> but the old single-decker carriage updates its livery over the years to feel like the newer carriages
17:30:04 <goddess_ishtar> while staying the same as regards capabilities
17:30:08 <_pruple> that's a good way to do it, yes
17:30:22 <merni> That would be ok I guess but might be disconcerting to have all your carriages magically modernise
17:30:31 <peter1138> time-based progression is fine imho, the "manually choose from 15 different liveries" progression is more awkward... and is more about model-railwaying than gameplay.
17:30:43 <peter1138> merni, buy date doesn't change
17:30:50 <merni> Yeah it depends on how much you want to cater to model-railwaying players :p
17:31:12 <merni> peter1138: Ah OK, I thought they meant updating the livery with the current date rather than buy date
17:31:13 <merni> makes more sense
17:31:18 <_pruple>
17:31:18 <_pruple> in Sunshine Trains I have a standard "automatic" carriage which updates based on when it was built, plus buildable variants for older styles if players want to replicate an older train
17:31:44 <merni> that's very nice
17:31:54 <goddess_ishtar> _pruple: That's a good way to do it
17:31:54 <peter1138> (I also like the US Station set, where you can get a nice looking station in one go without plopping down fiddly little individual parts.
17:31:57 <peter1138> )
17:32:15 <peter1138> That's nice.
17:32:24 <peter1138> And you can see it all before you buy, unlike refits ;D
17:32:33 <_pruple> then the different carriage type graphics (brake, restaurant etc) are automatically applied based on the length and position of the consist. so you get "realistic" looking trains without too much effort on the part of the player, or cluttering the buy menu.
17:32:44 <peter1138> ^^ win
17:33:00 <goddess_ishtar> _pruple: this is also how I was planning on doing it
17:33:48 <merni> I think the Swiss set also does that with automatic positioning of restaurant car/first class? Certainly it's nice
17:34:20 <goddess_ishtar> ~~all of this requires a lot of spritework though~~
17:34:42 <merni> Also, Discord channel #add-on-development exists :p
17:35:03 <goddess_ishtar> sorryyyy
17:35:32 <goddess_ishtar> we got derailed from talking about livery refits
17:35:59 <merni> Kind of weird though that on the discord end this is a channel for discussing the development of the game but on IRC it is just `#openttd` and presumably (at least originally) a general-purpose channel
17:36:25 <LordAro> never enforced any separation before
17:36:29 <FLHerne> _pruple: re. cloning, is it possible to hide a vehicle through grf?
17:36:38 <goddess_ishtar> I think it's just because the coders hang out in IRC
17:36:54 <_pruple> buildable but hidden? no, I don't think so.
17:36:55 <FLHerne> in the same way as a user hiding it in the purchase menu - i.e. available but not listed
17:37:16 <FLHerne> seems odd that the mechanism exists in the game but grfs can't make use of it
17:37:55 <goddess_ishtar> actually, that is something to be aware of
17:37:57 <FLHerne> merni: yeah, from my end it's #openttd and the other channels don't exist
17:38:01 <_pruple> iirc, TTDP used to have an option to not retire vehicles which were in use
17:38:13 <goddess_ishtar> people cloning a train and being confused when the livery is different
17:38:36 <FLHerne> it would be neat to bridge all the channels, but someoneโ„ข needs to improve dibridge for the purpose
17:38:38 <merni> _pruple: That sounds useful but also another option(tm)
17:38:44 <_pruple> perhaps that's a feature idea; allow vehicles to be cloned regardless of retirement ๐Ÿ™‚
17:39:03 <merni> FLHerne: I think that would just be very confusing to have multiple concurrent discord conversations into one IRC channel
17:39:11 <merni> Not that it doesn't happen already to some extent :p
17:39:16 <FLHerne> it's somewhere on my todo-sometime-maybe list, setting up a testing environment was the "too much work right now" block last time I thought about it
17:39:32 <FLHerne> merni: I meant to, say, #openttd-addon-development on OFTC
17:39:52 <_pruple> merni: I think that's one reason we often end up talking newgrf in here; there's another conversation going on in Discord channel #add-on-development and we don't want to talk over each other
17:40:22 <merni> perhaps forums are the best after all :p
17:40:31 <goddess_ishtar> on Discord there's threads for that, but they don't usually get used :p
17:40:54 <goddess_ishtar> I find them annoying personally
17:41:07 <LordAro> merni: never had any issues before ;)
17:41:18 <goddess_ishtar> they're supposed to be like little breakout channels but that's the perfect way of burying your conversation forever
17:41:23 <LordAro> occasionally confusing when people on discord side use threads and don't provide adequate context
17:41:26 <LordAro> but other than that
17:41:28 <goddess_ishtar> nobody is going to look in the thread
17:42:01 <LordAro> go and look in one of the busier IRC channels and see what that's like
17:42:07 <LordAro> ...if there are any busy IRC channels these days
17:42:09 <LordAro> :(
17:42:35 <goddess_ishtar> FLHerne: Each server bridges one IRC channel to one Discord channel, right? what's stopping someone from just running two instances of the bridge?
17:43:57 <LordAro> goddess_ishtar: it'd need to be one instance per IRC server, or the user names would get messed up real fast
17:44:47 <merni> _pruple: re. cloning regardless of retirement: would that also work for auto-replace?
17:44:53 <andythenorth> peter1138: who would do such a silly thing as flipping livery?
17:46:05 <peter1138> Speaking of silly things...
17:46:14 <_pruple> merni: probably not. why would you want to replace *to* something obsolete?
17:46:38 <merni> equally, why would you want to clone something obsolete?
17:46:51 <peter1138> What synth shall I buy next...
17:47:08 <_pruple> because it's faster than manually building a new train ๐Ÿ™‚
17:47:21 <andythenorth> _pruple: such gameplay
17:47:48 <andythenorth> and I hard to draw all the damn things too
17:47:50 <merni> _pruple: Well, that kind of defeats the purpose of expiration of vehicles
17:47:50 <_pruple> and people like to keep all the trains on a line identical, for balancing/speed reasons
17:48:32 <merni> _pruple: This makes more sense but equally then if one of the trains becomes unacceptably unreliable why shouldn't you be able to autoreplace it to the same model
17:48:35 <peter1138> Hmm, 3 Rolands so far...
17:48:43 <andythenorth> 808, 303, and ??
17:48:53 <andythenorth> there are others? ๐Ÿ˜ฎ
17:49:39 <_pruple> merni: autorenew, yes. autoreplace, no. ๐Ÿ™‚
17:49:40 <peter1138> JV-1080, S-1 and SC-8820
17:49:46 <andythenorth> oh wait is an 808 a synth or a drum machine?
17:49:55 <peter1138> andythenorth, yes.
17:50:03 <andythenorth> thought so
17:50:25 <andythenorth> _pruple: last few times I played, I wanted 'available, but hidden'
17:50:32 <andythenorth> 'deprecated'
17:50:36 <andythenorth> 'back catalogue'
17:50:46 <peter1138> If Belugas was still here I could stay up all night fiddling with them.
17:51:02 <andythenorth> Belugas probably still exists
17:51:06 <peter1138> (As if I don't do that anyway.)
17:51:18 <talltyler> Just freeze time and then nothing will ever expire ๐Ÿ˜›
17:51:33 <andythenorth> I did reduce the number of generations in Horse wagons
17:51:37 <talltyler> ~~as soon as I figure out wtf is wrong with my timetable Pr~~
17:51:42 <andythenorth> deleting about 200 beautiful sprites ๐Ÿ˜›
17:51:57 <goddess_ishtar> oh also, the recommended way to make an articulated locomotive with two separate cars (like a steam locomotive with a tender) is to use the same vehicle and give it different properties by checking the position in the articulated consist, right?
17:53:36 <_pruple> so to sum up: this committee recommends getting rid of reliability phase 3 altogether and treat vehicle retirement as purely removing vehicles from manually-buildable lists (depot and autoreplace), and allow vehicles to be autorenewed or cloned regardless of retirement?
17:53:46 <_pruple> goddess_ishtar: the way recommended by me, certainly ๐Ÿ™‚
17:53:58 <_pruple> other opinions are available (and wrong)
17:55:04 <merni> _pruple: Some may argue that for realism vehicles that aren't produced any more can't be suddenly produced again on a whim
17:55:38 <merni> for example, nobody is making eurofima coaches in Europe now even if they are used plenty, same goes for sleeping-cars
17:56:11 <merni> of course the fact that "vehicles never expire" setting exists rather contradicts that :p
17:56:14 <goddess_ishtar> _pruple: This would deal with my major gripe with vehicle expirations, namely "vehicles expire without any suitable replacement"
17:56:33 <_pruple> it's not unheard of, in reality, for companies to produce a small run of an obsolete design to expand an existing fleet
17:56:34 <goddess_ishtar> like multiple units or helicopters
17:57:02 <_pruple> and there's an argument that "autorenew" is "refurbishment" rather than new-build
17:57:31 <goddess_ishtar> Not being able to run a certain kind of service anymore because there are no vehicles that can run it isn't fun
17:57:48 <peter1138> That's where the date cheat comes in :D
17:58:45 <goddess_ishtar> `resetengines`
17:59:14 <andythenorth> _pruple: I have never been on a committee before, it's quite exciting
17:59:18 <merni> _pruple: If we are doing that, why allow only cloning? Since trains can be rearranged at will and cloned (as long as there's at least one loco), you could effectively buy single vehicles (or single loco + coaches) through cloning. In which case it makes no sense to remove it from the buy engine menu at all, hiding would be better
18:00:06 <andythenorth> I would just have a toggle in the buy menu
18:00:12 <merni> yeah
18:00:14 <andythenorth> maybe just abuse 'hidden'
18:00:29 <andythenorth> then it's player choice
18:00:39 <_pruple> we already have a toggle in the buy menu... yeah. so "retire" now just becomes "automatically hide"? I'd buy that ๐Ÿ˜‰
18:00:43 <merni> instead of "vehicle never expires" / date cheat / resetengines, a button in buy menu would be a lot simpler for those who want to use it
18:00:44 <andythenorth> reliability phase 3 = auto-hide
18:00:45 <andythenorth> yes
18:01:24 <_pruple> but we get rid of reliability phase 3, reliability of obsolete models doesn't decrease ๐Ÿ˜„
18:01:46 <_pruple> because a) that was always a silly mechanic, and b) most* people play with breakdowns off anyway
18:02:09 <merni> a. why?
18:02:09 <merni> b. so it doesn't affect them either way :p
18:02:41 <merni> don't see why reliability of ancient wooden carriages should be high as though they were the cutting edge of technology
18:03:16 <_pruple> but why should it be lower today than it was when they were designed?
18:03:57 <merni> well because reliability is in a % and not an absolute value, and is kind of relative
18:04:14 <goddess_ishtar> Maybe reliability should be relative to the age of the carriage, not the design age?
18:04:32 <andythenorth> some things get more reliable over time....
18:04:41 <andythenorth> due to ... stuff and things
18:04:45 <merni> is there a way to say "this vehicle is for its era the most reliable thing around, but is much less reliable than the modern equivalent"
18:06:36 <goddess_ishtar> merni: I feel like there are two ways to handle that
18:06:36 <goddess_ishtar> either have the maximum reliability that each design has raise over time with newer designs, or just stop tracking reliability as a percentage at all and track it as some number instead
18:06:40 <_pruple> you can fiddle with the reliability decay. maybe it would be good if max reliability were an actual property, and not randomised ๐Ÿ™‚
18:08:03 <peter1138> andythenorth, chunky bevels: industry cargo gui edition?
18:08:04 <merni> goddess_ishtar: > either have the maximum reliability that each design has raise over time with newer designs,
18:08:04 <merni> That has a limit though; either old trains have impractically low initial reliability, or trains stop getting more reliable after some decades
18:08:04 <merni> > or just stop tracking reliability as a percentage at all and track it as some number instead
18:08:04 <merni> that's require a lot more thought and changes in the game I suppose, along with confusing existing grfs :P
18:08:27 <goddess_ishtar> merni: that's the issue :0
18:08:38 <goddess_ishtar> sorry, meant ":p"
18:16:18 <FLHerne> andythenorth: be warned about committees, the moment you criticise anything you get delegated responsibility to fix it
18:17:07 <FLHerne> I got co-opted onto a charity's board and at this rate I'm going to be Council Member for Reversing Entropy before Christmas
18:17:26 <FLHerne> (partly hence me never getting around to anything NML-related)
18:17:48 <andythenorth> I thought the #1 rule of commitees was โ€œcontrol the minutes, then you control the commiteeโ€?
18:18:47 <FLHerne> "our publicity sucks" " please design us some flyers by next week" "the website sucks" "you are now responsible for the website" "the bottom of the boat rusted through and it started sinking" "you are now head of Historic Boats"
18:19:20 <andythenorth> peter1138: What does it nean? ๐Ÿ™‚
18:19:27 <FLHerne> I don't even know anything about historic boats :-(
18:19:37 <andythenorth> โ€ฆyet
18:20:05 <peter1138> andythenorth, the outlines in the industry chain window... they're always 1 pixel.
18:20:38 <goddess_ishtar> I'd make a terrible (or excellent depending on your view) committee member, I'm hardwired to always seek consensus :p
18:21:21 <andythenorth> That industry chain windowโ€ฆ.with FIRS 5 Steeltownโ€ฆat 2x UIโ€ฆ
18:21:32 <andythenorth> I broke it a bit ๐Ÿ˜›
18:26:56 <peter1138> Uh oh.
18:38:04 <_pruple> anything chunky bevels won't fix?
18:49:11 <andythenorth>
18:49:11 <andythenorth> did I do it right?
18:49:26 <andythenorth>
18:49:42 <andythenorth> too much observing my kids minecraft crafting TBH
18:49:58 <andythenorth> redstone in OpenTTD when?
18:50:36 <frosch123> what is the difference between a tube and a pipe?
18:50:39 <andythenorth> yes
18:50:54 <andythenorth> james bond can go down a pipe in one piece
18:51:10 <andythenorth> whereas putting james bond down a tube would require him to die
18:51:18 <peter1138> Is that broken, or just cluttered?
18:51:25 <andythenorth> cluttered, not broken
18:51:34 <andythenorth> it's usable, just silly
18:51:35 <_pruple> really? I feel like a tube is bigger than a pipe
18:51:39 <andythenorth> nah
18:52:08 <andythenorth> strictly they're not size limited
18:52:52 <andythenorth> the technical difference is whether it's outside or inside diameter that's measured
18:53:02 <andythenorth> and most tube is extruded from bar or billet stock
18:53:08 <andythenorth> most pipe is welded, but not all
19:12:06 *** virtualrandomnumber has joined #openttd
19:28:15 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd
19:35:45 *** virtualrandomnumber has quit IRC (Quit: virtualrandomnumber)
20:02:54 <peter1138> Oops, side-tracked again.
20:07:44 <andythenorth> On-topic though
20:07:46 <andythenorth> Track
20:43:04 <andythenorth> Did we implement redstone yet?
20:43:27 <andythenorth> Each tile gets 8 in bits / 8 out bits
20:44:09 <andythenorth> for 8 track bit directions to neighboroughing tiles
20:45:28 <andythenorth> And then thereโ€™s pre-defined logic in grf redstone objects
20:45:53 <andythenorth> Maybe some user scripting crap, dunno
20:46:10 <andythenorth> Iโ€™d sooner force it into grf :p
20:47:08 <andythenorth> Maybe the player gets to choose input and output dirs, but the logic is fixed
20:47:33 <andythenorth> All the standard bool AND, NOT, OR etc
20:48:01 <andythenorth> And then stuff like a 555 simulation which oscillates
20:50:24 <andythenorth> And then something that connects to rail track tiles (signals?)
20:58:23 <_glx_> we call that presignals
21:01:35 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #11460: Codechange: Use GetCurrentRect() where feasible.
21:02:09 <andythenorth> _glx_: So redstone is just rail track in OpenTTD? ๐Ÿ˜›
21:02:13 <peter1138> Ah yes, rail type redstone :D
21:13:21 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #11461: Codechange: Move RectPadding::zero definition to header.
21:15:06 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #11460: Codechange: Use GetCurrentRect() where feasible.
21:16:14 *** gelignite has quit IRC (Quit: Stay safe!)
21:22:37 <FLHerne> andythenorth: yeah, you can implement a NAND gate so OpenTTD trains are Turing-complete
21:23:22 <FLHerne> given an infinite map, you could build a computer and run Minecraft on it and simulate redstone directly :p
22:02:11 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
22:02:11 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
22:09:18 *** tokai has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
22:16:13 *** nielsm has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
22:27:08 <peter1138> Hmm, constexpr eh?
22:30:43 *** keikoz has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
22:40:14 *** Flygon has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
22:52:35 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC (Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.)
23:01:02 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
23:25:15 *** _aD has quit IRC (Quit: leaving)