IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-10-31
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00:01:06 <peter1138> Hmm, settings don't apply when on the intro game?
00:04:02 <frosch123> they do, but opengfx2 0.21 is broken
00:04:25 <peter1138> So it's teasing me with options that don't do anything :D
00:04:48 <frosch123> the old setting is kept for old versions, no idea why it would lose quote marks
00:05:56 <peter1138> I think it may be the quote marks shouldn't be there anyway. Any other config option does not have them.
00:06:38 <frosch123> there is no code that writes it explicitly, so it is whatever the ini-code does for unknown settings
00:07:16 <peter1138> Ah, they are set as SLE_STRQ vs SLE_STR.
00:07:40 <peter1138> Not sure what or what but yes, because it's no longer specified, they get stripped. That explains it :D
00:08:03 <frosch123> there also seem to be fewer \n in openttd.cfg now
00:08:34 <frosch123> there used to be \n after each group
00:08:53 <frosch123> but there is none in front of the newly added group
00:10:20 <peter1138> Hmm, apparently so. My CreateGroup is missing a step I think.
00:13:26 <peter1138> Yes, default 'comment' for new groups previously was "\n"...
00:13:58 <frosch123> master has no problem loading the old setting without the quotes
00:22:25 <frosch123> is that comment ever used for something?
00:22:57 <peter1138> Just noticed that hadn't gone through either, cos I hadn't reloaded since...
00:23:23 <peter1138> I don't think so. The idea of using a comment to separate it is a bit odd tbh, but it was working that way...
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02:02:06 <bungus> Huge update, thanks to everyone that worked on that PR. Very nice
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08:10:14 <_zephyris> Exciting stuff, I'll get OpenGFX2 updated ASAP!
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09:57:12 <georgevb> How the transportation graph is calculated?
09:57:45 <georgevb> It "discovers" transportations that do not happen
09:59:18 <emperorjake> This can happen when you use "refit to available cargo" orders
10:00:02 <georgevb> At the picture there are routes between forests and a lumbermil, a lumbermill and a furniture factory, and a furniture factory and a town. And it considers the last one as a wood transportation
10:01:17 <peter1138> Huh, I thought we reduced the size of the gradient on the left to match the small map...
10:02:48 <georgevb> I use refit to available cargo, but there are only mail and goods
10:12:45 <peter1138> Maybe that was just another patch that I didn't turn into a PR...
10:38:54 <peter1138> Found it... not in a PR :D
11:07:23 <emperorjake> "refit to available cargo" makes the link graph show all cargos that the vehicle can possibly carry, even if there is none of it being transported
11:11:54 <truebrain> hmm ... full recompile in 58s
11:12:02 <truebrain> that at least is an improvement 🙂
11:13:51 <LordAro> i've managed to take ~8 minutes off the build time of a component at work... by actually using the multiprocessing already built into the script
11:14:55 <truebrain> tuning when my fans spin up now 😛
11:15:20 <truebrain> keeping it a nice 80 degrees in there 🙂
11:22:11 <peter1138> CPU is at 47°C right now.
11:22:48 <peter1138> GPU at 61°C, annoyingly needing a different tool to read.
11:27:20 <truebrain> HWMonitor reads all
11:28:02 <truebrain> Just this mobo has no tool to change fan curve ... so I needed a random other tool for that. Annoying.
11:28:17 <truebrain> Rebooting to BIOS every time to test things sucks balls
11:30:12 <peter1138> Linux users eh? Can't stop making things as terminal apps...
11:31:30 <LordAro> (on a related note, i've got a jumper on)
11:31:49 <LordAro> oh hey, clocks changed, i can justify turning the heating on now
11:48:22 <peter1138> Argh, this jumper has an elbow hole :(
12:13:57 <orudge> LordAro / truebrain: belated reply, having been away for 2 weeks. Oof, yes, that code signing thing may be fun.
12:15:28 <orudge> It looks like you will either need a hardware key to do the signing, or use this SSL.com eSigning thing. Which apparently costs $20/month for 20 signing, or $85/month for 100 (and even that might not be enough for us, we might need their 300 tier at $175/month). And somehow the cost-benefit doesn't quite stack up there...
12:18:45 <ahyangyi> truebrain: And when that random other tool crashes because you have upgraded your system library or something, your machine might overheat unexpectedly
12:19:38 <ahyangyi> I remember using the mbpfan daemon on my old mbp ~~that serves BaNaNaS~~
12:20:04 <ahyangyi> ~~fortunately grilled bananas are also delicious~~
12:22:01 <truebrain> orudge: there were other suppliers last time we checked this out; so there might be cheaper solutions 🙂
12:22:07 <orudge> LordAro: I think the most cost-effective option, though frustrating from a CI point of view, is either for me to host a physical server here with the USB key plugged into it, or to rent a £5/month Raspberry Pi, mail them the USB key and expose some service :/
12:22:15 <orudge> truebrain: that's assuming other providers don't have the same requirement of course
12:22:18 <orudge> I'll have to look into
12:22:28 <orudge> given our certificate expires in January I think
12:22:31 <truebrain> I remember I initially looked into the esigning stuff
12:22:38 <truebrain> I think it is even in the gist I once wrote
12:22:52 <truebrain> orudge: well, nice surprise there, it is a bit later than January; so you have a bit more time 🙂
12:23:11 <truebrain> anyway, yeah, please do look around; there are a few out there that also have open source programs etc
12:23:30 <orudge> oh, May 2024, yeah, a bit later
12:23:56 <truebrain> and I remember somewhere that there was also a solution using AWS
12:24:03 <truebrain> but ... 2 years ago .. memory foggy 😛
12:25:25 <truebrain> however we slice it, it will cost money btw
12:26:09 <peter1138> Code signing scams :/
12:26:31 <truebrain> signing in general is just one weird way for a select few to make a lot of money
12:26:47 <truebrain> Let's encrypt showed it can be done differently 😄
12:28:12 <peter1138> The "We won't let your own software run on your own devices unless the developers pay a ransom" scam
12:28:22 <orudge> That ImageMagick discussion has some interesting links, Azure is one suggestion, SignPath another. Some options out there though it seems.
12:28:45 <truebrain> owh, was it Azure? I just remembed some cloud provider offering it 😄
12:28:59 <truebrain> the one downside is that we would need to be retrained, when switching ... but okay
12:29:05 <truebrain> for the first month people will get a popup, basically
12:29:14 <orudge> AWS has some options too I think
12:29:19 <orudge> Oh yeah, forgot about all that
12:29:42 <orudge> And now having flashbacks to my last day job where we went through all that too when we got a new code signing certificate :(
12:29:47 <orudge> funny how these things fade from your memory
12:30:00 <truebrain> the nightmares we like to forget 😄
12:33:12 <orudge> Looks like the Azure key signing solution is about $5/month (plus your certificate of course, from SSL.com or wherever) which isn't so bad
12:33:31 <orudge> I'll have a poke around a few places, anyway
12:43:45 * peter1138 affixes a stamp to truebrain
12:50:09 <orudge> Hmm, so SSL.com will only let you use an Azure Dedicated (i.e. expensive) HSM, not the cheaper one that this guide suggests you use. Oh, and you have to pay them $500 to 'attest' that the CSR is generated correctly.
12:51:31 <orudge> The guide suggests GlobalSign, for which standard code signing starts at £229/year, or £299 for EV that avoids all that initial X months of warnings.
12:51:43 <orudge> (Our previous certificate was something like £50-60/year)
12:52:07 <orudge> Makes Apple's £99/year seem quite reasonable :|
12:52:45 <georgevb> emperorjake: It makes very confusing, because both lines are not white. Shouldn't green mean that there are transportations?
12:58:36 <truebrain> I get that they want us to use HSMs, but .. the cost ... insane
12:58:43 <orudge> I'm going to e-mail SignPath
12:58:51 <orudge> They claim to offer free signing for open source projects
12:59:02 <orudge> but will need to see what the deal is there
13:18:34 <peter1138> "Let's put your keys in a place where nobody can reach it... and then put that in the cloud so that you can reach it..."
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13:20:51 <orudge> Well, I've e-mailed SignPath, let's see what they say. Otherwise I guess it's $$$ for us. :(
13:21:04 <orudge> Oh, there is of course still the option for the USB key, but don't you know you have to pay $249 for that.
13:27:26 <peter1138> And plug it in somewhere.
14:37:27 <truebrain> not an actual issue; most of us have servers running 24/7 to which we have physical access. But it increases the busfactor by a lot 😦
14:38:06 <peter1138> Of course. Plug it in to the MBP.
14:40:04 <peter1138> (How common is it for people to have home servers running 24/7 these days anyway?)
14:40:18 <truebrain> in this group, or in general? 😛
14:40:45 <orudge> the one that was turned off has 6 HDDs in and sucked a bit of power. The one that stays on is an Intel NUC that sucks very little power.
14:40:59 <peter1138> I have 3 on a UPS. "Server" is loose though, one is a Raspberry Pi.
14:41:12 <truebrain> I have a bit bigger servers, sucks no power 😛 Recent AMDs can be very low on energy consumption, as it turns out 😄
14:41:26 <truebrain> so to answer your question: 3 for 3
14:41:36 <truebrain> (biased statistics is biased)
14:41:47 <LordAro> both my server and desktop tend to stay permanently on
14:42:09 <peter1138> At this rate we need an redundant array of inexpensive USB keys...
14:43:23 <orudge> My desktop used to stay on 24/7 too, but then electricity prices happened.
14:43:56 <LordAro> yeah, i should probably get a power meter to work out how much this is actually costing me...
14:47:38 <tokai|noir> No switching off here. A rusty Mac mini and a Raspberry PI 3, both 24/7. Both serve things (to each other). 😎
14:47:38 <peter1138> Not so bad over winter, it just goes towards heating ;)
14:48:44 <peter1138> My servers are below the threshold for the UPS to show anything. Which just means that the UPS is too big and inefficient.
14:51:57 <LordAro> HWMonitor would suggest that CPU + GPU is <50W in light usage
14:52:04 <LordAro> which i know isn't particularly accurate
15:07:54 <peter1138> Ah, it does. 79W - 4% load.
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17:06:27 <Rubidium> peter1138: those home servers are a bit in the eye of the beholder. I've got an OpenWRT compatible access point/router, which I put a USB-stick in as simple NAS for backing up important files locally. Is that already a home server, or not?
17:06:50 <Rubidium> if it is, then it's running 24/7
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19:39:55 <georgevb> Is it a known issue that sorting industries by production is broken?
19:42:12 <bungus> georgevb: I have also noticed this but thought it might be an issue caused by a newgrf
19:43:01 <bungus> i only noticed it after adding FIRS to my games
19:43:11 <georgevb> Should I provide s bug report?
19:44:23 <bungus> I would, the sorting for the production for almost all of those industries in that screenshot is wrong
19:45:39 <bungus> see if you can reproduce it with only that industry grf loaded and also if it applies to vanilla too
19:52:19 <georgevb> Even default industries are sorted incorrectly
19:56:40 <peter1138> prod_b += ita... should be itb.
19:57:44 <goddess_ishtar> At least it's an easy fix
20:06:56 <peter1138> No need for this one, thanks.
20:07:18 <peter1138> (If you've already started, by all means carry on and I can reference it)
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20:13:52 <LordAro> does it require the larger sledgehammer?
20:14:05 <goddess_ishtar> kindly go fuck yourself, spammer
20:15:16 <goddess_ishtar> those are all phishing scams, anyway
20:15:54 <goddess_ishtar> they usually use Discord's "log in by scanning QR code" feature and pretend it's some verification scheme
20:23:19 <peter1138> Argh, enter key strikes again
20:24:07 <peter1138> ... Something is messing up my keyboard :/
20:24:40 <LordAro> have you considered a new one
20:28:08 <peter1138> At £100+ these days... no.
20:50:07 <peter1138> Are there any NewGRF road stop sets?
20:50:51 <peter1138> Ah, Korean set is the only one.
20:51:23 <_glx_> wondering if non const version is actually needed (but it's hard to check only from github)
20:52:32 <peter1138> Yes, newgrf_industries.cpp:663
20:53:56 <peter1138> There's there mutable keyword, but...
20:54:18 <peter1138> Having to provide const and non-const versions of the same stuff is a common pain.
20:58:38 <goddess_ishtar> oh, road vehicle stations?
20:59:38 <goddess_ishtar> oh it's a JGRPP thing
21:00:21 <_glx_> it's also an openttd 14+ thing
21:00:43 <goddess_ishtar> is the 14+ code publicly available yet?
21:01:09 <_glx_> and github master is 14+
21:04:03 <goddess_ishtar> has someone compiled a changelog from 13 yet?
21:04:31 <peter1138> At this point "14+" is a loose term meaning "next version after 13.x"
21:04:44 <peter1138> Nobody is preparing a release or changelog.
21:04:57 <peter1138> There is the git commit history.
21:07:58 <_glx_> internally it's 14.0 😉 but we just call them nighlies
21:09:22 <_glx_> the "14.0" is only useful for newgrf so newgrf using new features doesn't load on previous versions
21:11:18 <_glx_> with nmlc implementation of stations forcing to use 14+ while stations should be supported in previous versions too (PR waiting for "real" approval)
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22:00:41 <goddess_ishtar> How does the game generate towns and industries? Are they just randomly placed everywhere at worldgen?
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22:05:27 <frosch123> there are some rules
22:05:53 <frosch123> for towns: amount, size, city/town, coast line
22:07:14 <frosch123> for industries: amount, and industry-specific rules, like elevation, town/sea/landmark/other industry proximity, ...
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22:15:12 <goddess_ishtar> How much of this is exposed to modders?
22:16:14 <_glx_> just check silly landscape requirements for some ECS industries
22:18:33 <frosch123> industry mods control about everything about industries, to such extend that it is nearly impossible to offer any general controls: like global gameplay settings, economy mods, etc... i.e. industries and economy are very closely tied, while some usecases would rather separate them
22:20:36 <frosch123> or worded differently: plenty of features must be reimplemented by every industry mod. ottd can't offer shared things, because mods are allowed and used to do their own thing
22:33:05 <goddess_ishtar> that's actually really good news, because I had issues with the way that OpenTTD places industries by default
22:35:45 <goddess_ishtar> is "I don't think anyone but me will actually use this feature" a good reason to not include something?
22:37:05 <frosch123> depends on your source of motivation: do you mod for yourself, or for others
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23:08:10 <goddess_ishtar> I mod because I find making good things satisfying
23:08:29 <goddess_ishtar> I guess the question is whether "good" is objective or formed by consensus
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23:21:11 <Eddi|zuHause> just because you think something doesn't necessarily make it true
23:22:00 <goddess_ishtar> I can't tell if that's an argument for or against making things for your own sake
23:23:03 <Eddi|zuHause> in either case, it's not a very good argument by itself
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