IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-11-01
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00:02:09 <goddess_ishtar> why isn't ECS used so much anymore?
00:05:16 <brickblock19280> And has quite limiting placement
00:10:19 <emperorjake> The other industries not so much
00:10:38 <goddess_ishtar> is that an ECS thing?
00:10:38 <goddess_ishtar> I thought it was just that grf
00:10:39 <emperorjake> Plus there are other unpopular features like stockpiling and seasonal production
00:12:05 <brickblock19280> ECS as a standard never made sense even tho it would have been cool to see
00:13:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the ECS "standard" was just unnecessarily restricting.
00:16:19 <goddess_ishtar> ~~now I kinda want to make a replacement/successor~~
00:26:31 <Eddi|zuHause> for what purpose?
00:35:02 <goddess_ishtar> I know it's a bad idea that is wholly unnecessary and will never catch on
00:41:52 <emperorjake> Just make a FIRS fork with the ECS economy
00:43:03 <goddess_ishtar> it wouldn't really be mine then wouldn't it though
00:51:40 <goddess_ishtar> I thought that if ECS was flawed then there would be a niche for a better ECS but I just realized this is likely a solution looking for a problem
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02:47:32 <kamnet> goddess_ishtar: Just because you like it doesn't mean everyone else will, and just because everyone else doesn't use it doesn't mean it's bad. So, I'd say design the mod that you want for yourself, and if everybody else likes it, that's even better.
03:00:01 <goddess_ishtar> Is it worse to assume your mod will go nowhere, or to assume it'll be the best thing since sliced bread?
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03:02:17 <debdog> I agree with kamnet on that, goddess_ishtar. that's the spirit of open source. make the software you'd like to behave. share your work. maybe others like it, maybe they don't. but at least you like it (and regarding sims, you enjoy it.)
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04:41:26 <bungus> i mean you gotta stay humble but if its really good and you feel the quality is worthy of sharing then do it
04:43:07 <bungus> if people dont want to download it then who cares, its not like they are giving you money and expecting a quality product like a published video game
04:46:55 <goddess_ishtar> it's not really something I can readily explain
06:56:30 <georgevb> goddess_ishtar: If you are interested in making a ECS 2.0 - contact me 😉
06:57:33 <goddess_ishtar> it's 3AM and I should really be sleeping
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08:47:24 <peter1138> Hmm, where is this bug...
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09:34:45 <LordAro> peter1138: have you checked behind the sofa?
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10:01:43 <pickpacket> goddess_ishtar: the only question you have to ask about your mod is "will I enjoy using it?"
10:03:44 <pickpacket> goddess_ishtar: I've made two mods, because *I* want them. That's the only reason that matters
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10:46:15 <peter1138> Absolute joy at the resize box being 1 (scaled) pixel wider than scrollbars...
10:46:56 <peter1138> But making scrollbars wider looks wrong too.
10:47:09 <dwfreed> make the resize box 1 smaller ?
10:51:09 <ahyangyi> well, it's the resize box
10:51:16 <ahyangyi> it can... have a different size
10:51:44 <peter1138> It already does have different sizes depending on the row it is alongside.
10:52:19 <ahyangyi> you can draw a resize box inside the resize box, so the player can resize the resize box as they want
10:53:30 <dwfreed> what if you want to resize the resize box that's in the resize box?
10:53:37 <peter1138> Oh, and OpenGFX2 makes the scrollbars wider anyway. Hmm.
10:57:10 <dwfreed> perhaps the resize box's size should also take any scrollbars in the same column into account too
11:05:01 <bungus> a lot of those menu element sizes are decided by the size of the texture used for the gui sprite
11:05:38 <bungus> its very noticable using U&GUI
11:06:39 <peter1138> The scrollbar/resize box issue is there with the original graphics -- IIRC the resize box itself is not-TTD original anyway, so that issue is on us.
11:06:56 <peter1138> But whatever addons do, that's their problem if they don't stick to the standard sizes.
11:09:24 <bungus> yeah, im just trying to point out that those sizes are decided by the dimensions of the image used for like that resize button in the corner, or the X in the corner, and not by like a static value
11:12:08 <bungus> i had to comment out icons that addon because the non standard sizes were way too much for a lot of the menus, it was very very large
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11:12:55 <bungus> but yeah, thats a problem with the dimensions the author picked for the icons
11:12:55 <peter1138> Extra large icons like that were originally used when the interface scaling wasn't an option.
11:15:46 <peter1138> Trying to standardise on layout spacing. Left is old, right is new.
11:17:37 <LordAro> Accepts/Supplies maybe a bit close to the edge, but it was before too
11:18:41 <peter1138> Yeah, that's standard 'framerect' padding.
11:19:37 <peter1138> I've bumped up the padding on the station-picker bits to 3 pixels so that matches the depot-picker windows.
11:23:15 <bungus> super small change but that really makes it look a lot nice
11:24:22 <ahyangyi> I love the new spacing as well
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12:42:39 <frosch123> why does ottd not have a gridlayout? we still only have hbox and vbox
12:43:10 <frosch123> it seems all of the recent misalignments would be solved by using gridlayouts
12:52:55 <peter1138> This particular window wouldn't benefit.
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12:56:57 <frosch123> it would benefit the variant on the left side: match scrollbar width with resizebox, while matching scrollbar height with the layout picker
12:58:23 <peter1138> Well anyway, I have considered it but never got around to making it :)
13:03:27 <_zephyris> peter1138: Hmm, oops!
13:06:34 <peter1138> _zephyris, not really an issue, I just noticed it :)
13:06:56 <frosch123> i am getting old... i stared at that PR wondering what action0 had to do with parameters, just to discover that the "0" was actually a "D"
13:12:20 <_zephyris> peter1138: True, but would be nicer to be consistent. I comprehensively re-templated GUI elements/icons and it's where I introduced most new bugs...
15:26:28 <peter1138> Hmm, side-by-side I think the JV-1080 sounds better than the SC-88, but sometimes the reverb is overdone, and sometimes some instruments don't match.
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17:00:55 <goddess_ishtar> That cannot be right
17:12:18 <_glx_> And dorpsgek doesn't tell us the results
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17:15:01 <goddess_ishtar> it's 27 years both ways, I calculated it myself
17:15:22 <frosch123> 1996 is not when dvd hit mass market, that was later
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17:16:07 <frosch123> though i like the idea of comparing how long it took for those two things to become obsolete
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17:17:21 <frosch123> apollo stopped in 1972/1973, so lasted about 3.5 years
17:17:39 <frosch123> dvds were main market in 2000? and were obsolete by 2010?
17:18:02 <peter1138> ... DVDs are obsolete?
17:18:14 <_glx_> Appolo 11 stuff is not obsolete, just watch curiousmarc on youtube
17:18:32 <frosch123> i can't remember the last time i touched a dvd
17:19:15 <_glx_> I still don't have a BR player
17:19:57 <goddess_ishtar> peter1138: about as obsolote as Blockbuster :p
17:20:37 <_glx_> Is the last blockbuster store still exist ?
17:21:10 <goddess_ishtar> _glx_: apparently there's only one, and it's in Bend, Oregon
17:21:30 <goddess_ishtar> the last worldwide
17:35:44 <merni> _glx_: depends what obsolete means no? obsolete things can still work, they just may not be relevant to use in the modern era
17:39:38 <Eddi|zuHause> or horse carriages
17:41:54 <goddess_ishtar> A flintlock will still kill someone, but you don't want to bring one into a warzones
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18:38:59 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:09:31 <peter1138> Did something happen to andythenorth?
19:19:22 <talltyler> That’s a good question
19:22:25 <talltyler> Peter, care to take another look at #11359? I need to rebase my two big time PRs and don’t want to do both of them twice… 🙂
19:26:52 <peter1138> Hmm, dusty synthesizers...
19:27:15 <peter1138> I forgot to keep putting covers over everything. Oops.
19:34:27 <peter1138> Do you use RandomDiagDir elsewhere? Not sure it makes sense to move it. And 3 should be Random() & (DIAGDIR_END - 1)
19:34:56 <peter1138> Er, "-Random() &" as I didn't include that in the first part :)
19:35:06 <peter1138> Oh ffs, you know what I mean.
19:39:52 <talltyler> No, it’s not used elsewhere
19:40:09 <talltyler> It doesn’t have to move, I just thought it was odd living in there
19:41:42 <peter1138> I imagine it's there because there's the only place it's used. Because it uses Random() I'd hestitate to move that into headers.
19:41:56 <talltyler> Real-Time Mode is just waiting on help getting a timer to redraw the timetable GUI every second…but that might be a truebrain question when he’s not busy with his new job 😉
19:42:11 <talltyler> I will drop that commit then 🙂
19:47:08 <peter1138> This officially puts "bay" stop in stone ;)
19:47:08 <talltyler> Fixed the magic number as you suggested:)
19:48:35 <talltyler> Better than “standard” which makes no sense to those who never played before drive-thru stops were added
19:50:01 <talltyler> Hmm, what’s the order of operations for bitwise logic? Let’s not take chances…
19:50:26 <peter1138> I was looking that up, apparently it is fine, but I agree.
19:50:42 <frosch123> i thought they were called drive-in-stops? though that is too close to drive-through to be easilty distinguishable
19:51:33 <frosch123> if you do not know the order of operators, that's a reason to add parentheses :p
19:52:29 <frosch123> most compilers now complain if you mix && and || without parentheses, and quite often the warning is valid and the code was wrong
19:54:42 <talltyler> Yes, I made a stupid mistake with && and || recently and didn’t find it until CodeQL yelled at me
19:57:03 <peter1138> Yes, we do have "drive-in stop" in a couple of places.
19:57:39 <_glx_> Easier to read when you don't have to remember all precedence stuff
19:58:52 <peter1138> We also have variations of "not [... drive-through stop"
19:59:02 <talltyler> Peter: places in code or in strings?
19:59:52 <frosch123> whenever there is a compiler upgrade at work, there are more warnings. they seem to evenly split into 3 categories: (a) warning is right, code is wrong, fix the code. (b) warning is wrong, code is right, silence the warning somehow. (c) code is wtf, though technically correct. fix code anyway
20:01:14 <_glx_> With CodeQL we had some warning is right but code is safe in how it's used
20:02:55 <frosch123> talltyler: there is exactly one string refering to these stops, and it uses "bay" 🙂
20:03:59 <talltyler> I found three code comments and will fix them momentarily 🙂
20:04:13 <goddess_ishtar> "code is wtf, although technically correct"
20:04:18 <goddess_ishtar> isn't that all code?
20:04:46 <frosch123> there are certainly multiple levels of wtf-ness
20:05:22 <peter1138> Can't believe that Commander Keen only has PC-Speaker audio...
20:05:27 <goddess_ishtar> the difference between "I must have been tired when I wrote this" and "what in the holy name of god is this monstrosity"
20:05:40 <peter1138> "Who wrote this utter shit?" "Oh."
20:09:07 <frosch123> if i was a translator, i would translate "bus bay" incorrectly as "drive-through stop" 🙂
20:09:12 <frosch123> luckily i am not a translator
20:09:35 <Eddi|zuHause> my first association with "bay stop" would also be "drive-through"
20:10:09 <frosch123> maybe a germanism then :p i would have used "bus bay" vs "bus terminal" to distinguish drive-though and drive-in
20:12:06 <talltyler> I went with bay like a bay of an ocean, which is a dead-end
20:13:28 <frosch123> i interpreted "bay" as something small along the road, while "terminal" is something exclusive for busses without other cars
20:15:39 <frosch123> wikipedia distinguishes those two types as "bus station" (large, exclusive) and "bus stop" (small, along road)
20:17:04 <Rubidium> though OpenTTD's drive through's are not even "bus bays" (traffic can continue) but "bus bulbs" (traffic is halted)
20:17:06 <peter1138> Yup, but we also have "Station" meaning real station :)
20:17:06 <frosch123> but well, in the end you can build larger stops with drive-though and with drive-in :p
20:18:21 <frosch123> now that i think about it, i am surprised 2TT did not make a PR to hide the legacy stops from the gui :p
20:21:35 <talltyler> frosch123: I’m not andythenorth 😛
20:22:27 <frosch123> i meant like for signals: show drive-though only by default. and an extra expand button to show the legacy types
20:23:35 <talltyler> I don’t think they cause nearly as much confusion as signals 🙂
20:25:10 <frosch123> probably only because there are no default articulated vehicles 🙂
20:26:23 <talltyler> But at least we have a descriptive error message for that now
20:27:26 <talltyler> The skill floor for sending road vehicles to a suitable station is a lot lower than signaling
20:28:15 <frosch123> yes, the error message is good
20:29:14 <frosch123> the next common newbie error is probably: i pressed X, now all graphics are brokne, i reinstalled windows twice, and it did not fix it
20:29:24 <goddess_ishtar> "bay" to me implies a closed-off area
20:29:24 <goddess_ishtar> like a loading bay at the back of a warehouse
20:31:03 <frosch123> that makes it 2 us-english and 1 uk-english speakers in favour of "bay", against 2 non-native speakers :p
20:31:24 <goddess_ishtar> but for pax I think "bus stop" for drive-through and "bus terminal" for drive-in are the better options because "bus bay" just sounds a little off
20:33:03 <peter1138> I don't think I expressed an opinion either way.
20:33:22 <goddess_ishtar> frosch123: I'm Canadian, it's just that my consistency to spelling is atrocious :p
20:33:42 <frosch123> ah, then you can still fight over uk vs us english, and west vs east coast
20:34:10 <goddess_ishtar> Canadian English is the "eh, they're both fine, it doesn't really matter" of English
20:34:13 <peter1138> And the pronunciation of buoy.
20:36:04 <goddess_ishtar> and sometimes I spell it "programme" like a Brit for full chaos
20:36:18 <frosch123> goddess_ishtar: i compared the uk/us/au translations years ago. the biggest differences were in toyland terms: cotton-candy vs candy-floss vs fairy-floss 🙂
20:37:07 <goddess_ishtar> candy-floss is Aus and fairy-floss would be UK, right?
20:47:06 <_glx_> aluminum vs aluminium 🙂
20:52:48 <peter1138> Either it's not just me... or I've touched a lot of code.
20:54:12 <Rubidium> it's not just you, it's something many IDEs/editors do for you by default/design when reindenting stuff
20:57:05 <goddess_ishtar> wait, articulated vehicles can't use bay stops?
20:57:39 <goddess_ishtar> is it because they physically cannot fit inside?
20:58:35 <frosch123> it's because the movement code that turns vehicles on the spot when entering/leaving the bay stops, does not know where to position articulared parts
20:59:00 <goddess_ishtar> that seems like something that should be fixed
21:00:10 <frosch123> articulated vehicles cannot overtake either
21:00:23 <frosch123> (though maybe that was fixed meanwhile)
21:02:35 <peter1138> Overtaking should be fixable, but turning around on the spot is probably not doable.
21:06:24 <Eddi|zuHause> the whole overtaking should be reimplemented, along with two lanes in same direction
21:07:40 <_glx_> like move to left lane (if on one way road) to turn left
21:10:18 <_jgr_> Overtaking on a straight road section works easily enough for articulated vehicles, but changing what side of the road the vehicle is on when any part of an articulated vehicle is on a corner is highly problematic
21:16:27 <andythenorth> hide the drive-in stops we say? o_O
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21:16:45 <andythenorth> "but they have higher throughput"
21:17:20 <goddess_ishtar> can't build bay stops on city roads 😉
21:18:00 <_jgr_> They seem to have lower throughput, at least by eye-reckoning
21:18:12 <andythenorth> depends on if you use both sides of the road
21:18:39 <andythenorth> imo, a drive-through used in both directions is higher throughput than drive in, but I have no evidence
21:18:54 <andythenorth> I did a lot of testing years ago, and it's very situational to road layout and queuing
21:19:53 <goddess_ishtar> honestly, I prefer bay stops for transfers (like bus to rail) and through stops for endpoints
21:20:11 <_glx_> drive-through on one-way could use both sides
21:21:55 <goddess_ishtar> the main issue with through stops is that they block other road vehicles from using the road while they are loading
21:22:28 <goddess_ishtar> which can lead to excessively long waits for a free spot
21:24:56 <_jgr_> If you need to use full load for lorries then it's usually a good idea to put them on a loop, instead of actually on the main road
21:25:14 <_jgr_> One-way road stops can be convenient for that
21:46:36 <peter1138> Hmm, do I add asserts or debug messages...
21:47:18 <_glx_> depends if it's an info or a validation of arguments
21:47:47 <Eddi|zuHause> terminal stops are better for full load, with drive-through you got queuing and load balancing issues
21:48:24 <Eddi|zuHause> load balancing on drive through stops works better with road vehicles of a full tile length
21:49:35 <Eddi|zuHause> with half tile vehicles, the second will turn into the same loading bay than the first, because it will not count as reserved yet
21:51:01 <_glx_> in theory 2 half size could fit and load/unload at the same time
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22:10:42 <_glx_> unless it's a user input
22:27:11 <Eddi|zuHause> _glx_: yes, 2 can load simultaneously, but sporadically vehicles which are late end up behind vehicles that are on time, and they can never overtake
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