IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-10-25
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03:02:29 <FruitSalad> What is the reason for no bridges over docks?
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03:15:20 <jfs> Bridges don't go over any types of stations
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06:56:14 <goddess_ishtar> I wanted to go into the gif picker to get an image of a rubber ball bouncing with "boing boing" on it
06:56:39 <goddess_ishtar> I did not find that, but I now wish to bleach my eyeballs
07:02:50 <alfagamma7> what did you see instead
07:08:51 <goddess_ishtar> in wholly unrelated news, how often is `nmlc` updated in the Ubuntu package repos?
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07:28:37 <LordAro> goddess_ishtar: whenever the packager updates it
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07:29:01 <LordAro> no more than every 6 months i would guess
07:29:08 <LordAro> baring security fixes
07:29:23 <LordAro> it's not something we have any control over
07:29:38 <alfagamma7> I thought it depends on the concerned package maintainer
07:40:06 <goddess_ishtar> because right now it's on 0.7.4 like the latest version on GitHub
08:22:14 <LordAro> depends which version of ubuntu you're looking at
08:22:30 <LordAro> i don't think there's been an actual nml release in quite a while...
08:29:46 <goddess_ishtar> LordAro: well I'm on Mint
08:30:13 <goddess_ishtar> and that pulls from the 22.04 Jammy Jellyfish repos
08:37:35 <goddess_ishtar> it's right here
08:39:38 <goddess_ishtar> and I checked my install and it said it came from the Ubuntu repos, probably because Mint isn't popular enough for someone to maintain another repo
08:41:05 <goddess_ishtar> yeah, the version is off
08:41:20 <goddess_ishtar> but `nmlc --version` returns 0.7.4
08:41:53 <goddess_ishtar> so Β―\_(γ)_/Β―
08:41:54 <LordAro> are you sure that's the version from the package?
08:42:00 <LordAro> because that would be weird otherwise
08:42:28 <goddess_ishtar> `/home/ishtar/.local/bin/nmlc`
08:44:14 <goddess_ishtar> I just remember it wasn't working until I tried installing it with APT, and Synaptic reports that I've got it installed (and it says so 0.6.1) so *god knows* what's going on if that isn't from the repos
08:44:42 <LordAro> that's very much not from the package repos :p
08:44:49 <LordAro> /usr/bin/nmlc will be the one from the package
08:45:06 <LordAro> probably installed some missing dependency for you
08:45:49 <goddess_ishtar> so I have two versions of nmlc here somewhere?
08:48:49 <goddess_ishtar> there isn't a /usr/bin/nml on this computer
08:48:55 <goddess_ishtar> the plot thickens!
08:51:05 <goddess_ishtar> oh synaptic has locked up
08:51:12 <goddess_ishtar> joy of all joys
08:56:57 <goddess_ishtar> apparently it is here
08:57:04 <goddess_ishtar> it's just not a directory
08:57:21 <goddess_ishtar> π€¦πΌββοΈ
08:57:26 <goddess_ishtar> I am very smart
08:59:19 <goddess_ishtar> so the nmlc provided by the package manager *is* 0.7.4, but it's... not the nmlc in my $PATH?
08:59:36 <goddess_ishtar> or is it just symlinked
09:00:26 <LordAro> i would still suggest that whatever /usr/bin/nmlc is is not the version from the package
09:00:33 <LordAro> `apt install nml --reinstall`
09:01:46 <goddess_ishtar> well the locked-up synaptic currently has a lock on the package manager so be right back, I need to restart my PC
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09:07:28 <goddess_ishtar> that appears to have done nothing
09:08:03 <peter1138> Probably some python shenanigans.
09:08:26 <LordAro> nmlc binary just calls into whatever nml module python finds
09:08:29 <goddess_ishtar> before APT I tried installing via pip
09:08:34 <goddess_ishtar> that would probably do it
09:09:29 <goddess_ishtar> but either way, it does appear that the repo is mislabled
09:10:51 <LordAro> i don't think it is, it's just not running what it's supposed to
09:11:12 <LordAro> because of your pip install overriding it
09:12:18 <goddess_ishtar> gonna try uninstalling via pip and see what we get then
09:12:30 <LordAro> i reckon if you use `python3 -s /usr/bin/nmlc --version` it'll show 0.6.1
09:12:34 <LordAro> that will exclude your local packages
09:13:22 <LordAro> yeah, pip getting in the way
09:13:31 <LordAro> honestly, just remove the apt package
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09:15:34 <peter1138> This is why all the venv stuff...
09:15:57 <goddess_ishtar> yeah, I didn't do that because it seemed complex for no reason
09:16:05 <goddess_ishtar> guess this is why you should
09:17:10 <goddess_ishtar> well, the outdated APT package is gone and nmlc is happily working the way it should
09:19:27 <goddess_ishtar> should I put the thing in a venv now>
09:20:39 <LordAro> i'd probably say that as long as you're only ever wanting to *use* nml, rather than do any development of it, it'll be fine as a locally installed pip package
09:21:02 <LordAro> as soon as you make a checkout of the nml repo, then you should start using venvs
09:24:44 <goddess_ishtar> I don't have half as much grf knowledge to work on the compiler for it :p
09:25:32 <goddess_ishtar> it still boggles my mind that people coded directly in nfo
09:25:32 <goddess_ishtar> I mean, *direct hexadecimal?*
09:25:56 <LordAro> it's not quite that low level
09:25:58 <LordAro> but it's pretty close
09:27:43 <goddess_ishtar> I'll stick with abstraction thank you
09:28:13 <goddess_ishtar> I do want to be a systems programmer one day, but you have to conserve your energy for dealing with arcane bullshit
09:29:05 <LordAro> after the third time you run into an issue that's due to DST differences between timezones, you sort of start questioning your life choices
09:29:25 <LordAro> in the meantime, i found more files to delete: 89 files changed, 370 insertions(+), 5246047 deletions(-)
09:29:38 <goddess_ishtar> isn't that the whole point of the Unix epoch?
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09:29:49 <goddess_ishtar> you don't have to touch any of that?
09:30:05 <LordAro> but you've got to convert between them at some point
09:30:30 <goddess_ishtar> "that is a problem for future me, and now I am future me"
09:30:31 <LordAro> general people don't do well with 1698226226
09:30:59 <pemensik> Hi! I were wondering, we had a game including multiple people. Is there some tool to look into savegame and export html or text description about companies?
09:31:59 <pemensik> Is there by chance some python or similar language binding to export information about companies and cities on the map?
09:32:27 <goddess_ishtar> I believe that would be heavily reliant on how the game stores saves
09:33:44 <peter1138> 5246047 deletions: "remove all bugs"
09:33:46 <pemensik> yes. Not sure if such thing is possible from game script. Which otherwise should have all information needed
09:34:23 <peter1138> LordAro, your CI might get a bit quicker with all that gone...
09:35:01 <pemensik> But I have not found a way to write a file from squirrel language in game script. Can it write files from the game?
09:35:03 <peter1138> People have written tools to parse savegames before, so there's bound to be something available to help.
09:35:27 <peter1138> No, squirrel has no access to a filesystem, not even a virtualised sandbox.
09:36:18 <LordAro> (very intentionally so)
09:37:21 <peter1138> Hmm, can I do a check-constraint across a foreign key relationship...
09:44:16 <LordAro> goddess_ishtar: the scripting language we use for AIs/Gamescripts
09:45:05 <goddess_ishtar> is there a spec somewhere?
09:47:08 <goddess_ishtar> so AIs and GameScripts are running in a sandboxed Squirrel VM which can affect the gamestate?
09:59:40 <peter1138> Ah, so the SQL Server trick of indexed views generating errors does not fly in PostgreSQL as it 1) pre-sanitizes the view so the error can't exist and 2) doesn't support indices on views.
10:00:29 <peter1138> Definitely sounds like a bodge anyway :D
10:00:31 <goddess_ishtar> you're programming in SQL? my condolences
10:01:23 <peter1138> Not really programming, just trying to enforce a tiny bit of business-logic.
10:04:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that fits the definition of "programming" pretty well :p
10:04:26 <goddess_ishtar> yikes, that's some necro
10:04:26 <goddess_ishtar> someone posted in a NoAI thread seven years later than the last post
10:04:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen "worse" (or "better") necros
10:05:30 <goddess_ishtar> OpenTTD is just a magnet for them
10:05:56 <goddess_ishtar> because it's a project that's been around forever and large parts of it haven't changed since 2007
10:05:57 <Eddi|zuHause> that's just because you need things to be 20 years old for there to be 20 year necros
10:07:32 <goddess_ishtar> I've just realized this game is old enough to drive
10:09:24 <LordAro> goddess_ishtar: it's more fun when you realise TB has been around since the very beginning
10:09:42 <LordAro> well, maybe within a few weeks of the original announcement
10:10:04 <peter1138> Who else is from near the begining.
10:10:19 <LordAro> Mr Rudge even longer i suppose, though not necessarily directly involved
10:10:43 <goddess_ishtar> ughhhhh Squirrel is object-oriented
10:11:40 <peter1138> Hmm, my first contribution is 9 months after the svn repo restarted.
10:13:04 <peter1138> I still think everyone is a teenager or early 20s...
10:13:23 <peter1138> You must be at least 20 by now.
10:14:24 <LordAro> I am rapidly approaching 30 ;_;
10:14:38 <goddess_ishtar> the issue I have with OO is that it's the archetypal golden hammer
10:14:45 <goddess_ishtar> some things were not meant to be classes
10:15:17 <peter1138> Fortunately C++ allows both.
10:16:30 <goddess_ishtar> I love Python, mostly because it's extremely easy to create horrific monstrosities not abiding by any form of standard or reason
10:19:17 <LordAro> they should put that on the poster
10:20:30 <peter1138> Hmm, Gnome's magnifier tool is a bit nicer than Windows', but I can't seem to change the size of zoomed view.
11:00:37 <peter1138> Ah, the dreaded "sprite font includes character spacing" strikes again.
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14:03:55 <_glx_> and of course I can't really test it because on my fork the previous release cache is gone, and triggering a release build for the PR would use master workflow
15:23:38 <andythenorth> goddess_ishtar: Itβs actually table and slot oriented, for practical purposes
15:23:49 <andythenorth> At least in squirrel 2
15:24:03 <andythenorth> The OO is best described as βweirdβ
15:25:20 <goddess_ishtar> LordAro: the true sin here is using Windows for any sort of coding :p
15:27:13 <goddess_ishtar> andythenorth: is it Squirrel 2 or 3 in OpenTTD?
15:28:15 <_glx_> and we can't really switch to 3 because it would break some existing AI/GS
15:28:55 <goddess_ishtar> why was Squirrel chosen? lightweight?
15:29:52 <LordAro> and in ~2007, lua and other embeddable languages that we'd probably choose nowadays didn't exist
15:30:27 <goddess_ishtar> yeah, Lua would have been what I'd have chosen
15:30:45 <goddess_ishtar> ~~except for the fact it counts from one instead of zero grrrrr~~
15:37:19 <peter1138> Hmm, Fluidsynth is 1) still consuming CPU when the music track has finished and 2) not moving on to the next music track.
15:38:14 <goddess_ishtar> oh, I had that issue too when trying to fix my midi playback
15:38:41 <goddess_ishtar> it just wouldn't play the next song, or it would hang for a bit then start the next one
15:38:45 <goddess_ishtar> it was bizzare
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16:50:08 <bungus> yeah, thats definitely a problem that pipewire would fix. it has way better latency which fluidsynth has timing issues with using pulseaudio, and is a lot lower in cpu usage
16:53:52 <peter1138> Totally irrelevant.
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17:01:59 <peter1138> Turns out it's consuming more CPU because t
17:02:17 <LordAro> because your enter key was being held down?
17:02:22 <peter1138> Because the CPU clock has dropped down to idle levels, so the minimal work its doing takes more time.
17:08:53 <peter1138> Totally irrelevant.
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17:53:04 <peter1138> Hmm, why does exit(1) not exit...
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18:09:32 <dwfreed> heh, I read about that the other day while reading about ebcdic
18:11:37 <dwfreed> peter1138: exit() still does destructors and things like atexit() hooks and flushing I/O buffers; if you want to exit right now without doing any of that, there is _exit()
18:13:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i read that before...
18:13:13 <peter1138> That is probably the simplest fix. Hmm.
18:14:57 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: i think the most ironic thing about that page is that the comments have all kinds of broken encoding :p
18:39:45 <truebrain> Merging during eints run ... so no eints for you today! π
18:44:52 <peter1138> That was an auto-merge.
18:48:36 <peter1138> The bootstrap window's background makes my monitor do very strange things :)
18:54:56 <peter1138> That may be a coded sign of "buy better monitors".
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20:20:39 <peter1138> Anyone have an example of a GS script with goal questions?
20:21:23 <andythenorth> Does Silicon Valley?
20:24:50 <goddess_ishtar> andythenorth: you seem to be missing a verb there
20:25:33 <peter1138> Yup, thanks andythenorth.
20:26:41 <peter1138> p.s. I recommend cheese.
20:34:42 <peter1138> Never seen a yellow window before...
20:35:13 <_glx_> warning window, I think it's the first time
21:00:14 <truebrain> please take it away
21:00:16 <truebrain> it hurts my eyes π
21:12:55 <goddess_ishtar> truebrain: and the radioactive red of the other OpenTTD dialogues don't?
21:18:58 <peter1138> Top-level whataboutery :)
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22:08:39 <peter1138> This resize button is bugging me :/
22:09:31 <goddess_ishtar> peter1138[d]: >"trans rights are human rights"
22:43:08 <peter1138> Hmm, forgotten how to make OpenTTD use hardware MIDI in Linux.
22:44:58 <goddess_ishtar> extmidi doesn't work?
22:47:09 <peter1138> extmidi:cmd=pmidi is sort of working. Stuck notes and the instruments don't sound correct.
22:49:54 <goddess_ishtar> god help you then
22:51:45 <peter1138> Yeah, no idea why it would sound wrong.
23:09:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i almost read "trains rights" :p
23:09:13 <peter1138> Almost the same thing.
23:10:12 <peter1138> extmidi also doesn't notice that playing has finished... is this just my setup or is it broken for others?
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23:23:27 <goddess_ishtar> me and all my friends are into trains, I'd say there's a fair bit of overlap :p
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23:44:06 <goddess_ishtar> I've tried to replace Pulseaudio with Pipewire and it just broke Blueman so now I can't even connect my Bluetooth headphones π
23:45:15 <goddess_ishtar> turns out I forgot to install the client libraries
23:46:15 <peter1138> I had pipewire partially working until I added myself to the pipewire group. Not sure that is meant to be necessary.
23:46:58 <peter1138> And on Debian at least the jack-compatiblity part of it is awkward as you need to install jack or jack2 (but not run them)
23:47:41 <dwfreed> I am on debian bookworm, using pipewire, and not in the pipewire group
23:47:46 <dwfreed> and pipewire works fine
23:48:08 <peter1138> It worked fine but new audio devices did not show up in qpwgraph.
23:50:07 <peter1138> Or maybe that is completely unrelated, as it's not showing up now any more. Maybe it's just one particularly device being weird.
23:51:53 <peter1138> Hmm, no, a different device isn't showing up either.
23:52:22 <goddess_ishtar> I firmly believe Linux is like a project car
23:52:36 <goddess_ishtar> it spends as much time in the shop as it does on the road
23:53:51 <goddess_ishtar> okay, Blueman isn't shitting itself anymore, so that's progress
23:54:46 <_glx_> I still remember the old time when you had to recompile the kernel to support your audio hardware
23:54:46 <dwfreed> damn it, now I kind of want to play My Summer Car
23:54:59 <goddess_ishtar> `pactl info` shows Pipewire is running
23:55:04 <dwfreed> thanks for that goddess_ishtar
23:55:25 <_glx_> and the fun with exclusive access to the device
23:55:53 <goddess_ishtar> we have audio!
23:56:16 <goddess_ishtar> now to see if it actually fixed the problem with OpenTTD
23:57:04 <peter1138> Shows up after `systemctl --user --restart pipewire.service`
23:57:36 <goddess_ishtar> dwfreed: My Summer Car is one of those games I keep bouncing off of whenever I pick it up again and realize how hard it is just to drive to the store to pick up sausages and beer
23:58:01 <dwfreed> it's certainly not *easy*
23:59:43 <dwfreed> iirc, I usually used the sewer truck for it
continue to next day β΅
