IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-10-23
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00:56:48 <_glx_> it was affected by a github issue
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06:26:57 <wensimehrp> Is it possible to make something like
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06:31:32 <wensimehrp> Is it possible to make something like this in OpenTTD?
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06:34:29 <emperorjake> Rack rail or Loco-style building interface?
06:35:25 <wensimehrp> I remember the PURR set can increase a train's power, so rack rail should be possible.
06:36:02 <emperorjake> Rack rail is theoretically possible with a GRF, but no one's really done it yet
06:36:48 <emperorjake> Loco-style building interface would be possible with a patch, but I don't think anyone would want it because it's a slower and inferior way of building tracks
06:37:10 <emperorjake> you'd get RSI from having to click for each tile you build
06:45:14 <emperorjake> Loco as in Chris Sawyer's Locomotion, the spiritual sequel to TTD
06:45:44 <goddess_ishtar> yeah, but how does it build tracks?
06:45:55 <emperorjake> Same way as Roller Coaster Tycoon
06:46:11 <emperorjake> you choose a direction, pick curve or straight, and click to build every piece
06:46:36 <emperorjake> Makes sense for roller coasters, not so much for railways
06:48:44 <goddess_ishtar> yeah, rails are generally a lot less twisty
06:51:17 <wensimehrp> emperorjake: What about *this?*
06:52:13 <emperorjake> Ah, do you mean being able to select stuff like speed or electrification individually? That wouldn't be possible without reworking the entire railtype system, so it probably won't happen unfortunately
06:55:40 <goddess_ishtar> why not just drag lengths out with autorail
06:55:48 <goddess_ishtar> like a normal person
06:57:17 <goddess_ishtar> the standard OpenTTD way of doing things
07:28:19 <peter1138> wensimehrp, better off posting a bit of context instead of just images.
07:29:11 <goddess_ishtar> I've been meaning to ask, how does the IRC bridge handle fancy Discord things like replies and images and Markdown?
07:30:02 <merni> Maybe join the IRC channel and see :p
07:30:24 <goddess_ishtar> I would if I knew which network it was on :p
07:30:38 <peter1138> It just posts the link to it.
07:31:23 <ishtar> aha, found it on the website
07:31:31 <goddess_ishtar> oh god this is trippy
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07:32:42 <dwfreed[d]> all IRC users have the bot tag
07:32:57 <peter1138> There's less adverts on IRC.
07:33:08 <ishtar> "'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither"
07:33:28 <dwfreed> yeah, IRC doesn't expand discord invites
07:34:20 <peter1138> I mean the bullcrap like "Buy Nitro to *checks notes* change the Discord app's icon"
07:34:37 <dwfreed> lol, that too; the nitro nagging gets annoying
07:35:12 <ishtar> it's bad, but I really cba to change to a better option like the open-source alternatives out there
07:35:23 <ishtar> too many people I know are on Discord
07:35:32 <merni> Network effect. Same thing with twitter
07:35:48 <ishtar> Musk seems determined to change that, though
07:36:02 <dwfreed> oh yeah, he's going to kill twitter
07:37:34 <ishtar> "going to kill" I think is an understatement
07:37:40 <ishtar> it's half-dead already
07:37:44 <peter1138> Musk can't touch the fediverse,
07:38:02 <ishtar> yeah, I've really been eyeing Mastodon lately
07:38:37 <LordAro> twitter was only ever read only for me, but i didn't install it on my new phone last week
07:38:43 <LordAro> so it's dead to me now
07:39:06 <ishtar> the thing with Twitter that really turns me off lately is the ratelimits for logged-out users
07:39:45 <ishtar> never signed up so when I just couldn't browse anymore it was easy to stop going there
07:40:44 <ishtar> peter1138: "unofficial but developer-run"
07:41:01 <peter1138> I wouldn't know which.
07:41:03 <ishtar> sounds a lot like "this is basically official but nobody wants to actually endorse it"
07:41:40 <ishtar> hmm, how does the bridge do pings?
07:42:08 <dwfreed> dwfreed[d]: works fine
07:42:22 <alfagamma7> I can't use previous ids on irc right?
07:42:50 <dwfreed> you can, whatever their IRC nick was the last time the bridge connected them still works
07:43:04 <dwfreed> I ping truebrain all the time before the bridge has reintroduced him to IRC :D
07:43:13 <goddess_ishtar> one thing I've noticed: it uses my unique name (goddess_ishtar) rather than my display name (Ishtar)
07:43:34 <goddess_ishtar> oh god that just made HexChat flash at me
07:44:05 <peter1138> Oof this resource pack tanks FPS when there's a few chickens in view.
07:44:05 <dwfreed> usernames are significantly more restricted as to what characters can be in them, which lines up with IRC nicks almost exactly; whereas Discord display names can be *anything*
07:46:52 <LordAro> i suspect peter1138 may be playing minecraft
07:47:10 <ishtar> that does seem to line up
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07:48:05 <johnfranklin> The trend is simpler, GUI rather than more functional, code
07:50:51 <truebrain> LordAro: in fairness, could be CS:GO too 😛
08:03:40 <peter1138> Oh, it's $work o'clock :(
08:03:52 <truebrain> every freaking monday
08:03:57 <truebrain> I wish they would do something about it
08:04:10 <peter1138> I hope that notification sound was something else.
08:17:57 <merni> allows you to read twitter without using twitter.com
08:18:38 <merni> they have been frantically keeping up with all the new restrictions and somehow finding incredibly arcane ways to bypass them (the issues in the github repo makes for interesting reading)
08:18:47 <peter1138> The presupposes you *want* to read twitter...
08:19:27 <merni> True. I personally like to read a few people's posts and not have the algorithm feed me
08:19:32 <merni> for which that works well
08:42:14 <goddess_ishtar> yeah, whenever someone links something on twitter that's what I use
08:53:06 <peter1138> Why am I 'starving'...
08:53:22 <dwfreed> because you need to eat the chickens
08:53:36 <dwfreed> it'll solve your fps problem too
08:54:22 <peter1138[d]> I think it was more than two.
13:02:46 <Eddi|zuHause> is there a place i can download more RAM?
13:03:47 <Eddi|zuHause> cities skylines is like using like 25GB swap.
13:10:02 <peter1138> Should be fine with 64GB no?
13:10:50 <peter1138> Fun with Minecraft. The amount of text you can put on a sign depends on the width of the font.
13:10:56 <peter1138> Resourcepacks can change fonts.
13:11:11 <peter1138> So you can have signs that fit for some players, but not for others.
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14:32:52 <alfagamma7> What social platform?
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14:34:01 <yeah_its_gloria> things like Steam
14:34:48 <peter1138> SocialDriver is a funny term, it sounds so cringe out of context :)
14:35:18 <yeah_its_gloria> it kinda does but I wanted to keep the spirit of what the PR this replaces had
14:35:49 <LordAro> i feel like you missed the reason why #8952 implemented things the way it did
14:35:56 <LordAro> we cannot link against steam
14:35:56 <yeah_its_gloria> "Gaming Platform" sounds too funny, "Platform" sounds very broad, and not every platform this could support might be centered around games alone
14:36:09 <LordAro> there's a doc somewhere, trying to find it...
14:37:55 <LordAro> istr TB writing something detailed
14:38:06 <truebrain> ...... we know each other too long
14:39:03 <peter1138> Ah you mean those documents.
14:39:51 <LordAro> though in searching for it, i have found that ORCT2 has some sort of discord integration
14:40:38 <truebrain> LordAro: how did they pull that off?
14:41:58 <yeah_its_gloria> > The problem we face with such integration, is that as GPL software you cannot just include non-free software: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLPlugins . Basically, only if you call main in such plugin, or use fork/exec with very limited data-sharing, FSF says no.
14:41:58 <yeah_its_gloria> I don't think this is really the case
14:42:02 <yeah_its_gloria> practically we are doing that
14:42:03 <peter1138> The usual way is to just ignore licensing.
14:42:13 <yeah_its_gloria> OpenTTD only includes a minimal shim for the weird templates
14:42:16 <yeah_its_gloria> the rest is contained in steam's DLL
14:42:41 <yeah_its_gloria> I don't think OpenTTD forms a coherent single application with Steam this way
14:42:59 <peter1138> I don't think you can get around the linking issue by claiming that linking is a minimal shim :)
14:43:13 <yeah_its_gloria> you're being very reductive
14:43:26 <yeah_its_gloria> how is this worded clearly?
14:43:41 <yeah_its_gloria> it blurs the difference between distributing on Steam itself and using Steamworks
14:43:47 <yeah_its_gloria> things that can happen separately
14:43:52 <truebrain> they clearly consider their headerfile part of the SDK, and as such, licensed under their license 🙂
14:44:31 <truebrain> anyway, we had the legal debate many times over; we are basically not willing to "wing it" or "risk it". As such, a rich presence API is suggested, to avoid all the legal issues
14:44:49 <truebrain> just nobody has actually finished it 🙂
14:44:53 <peter1138> It's "blurred" if you ignore the very first sentence which isn't about distributing on Steam.
14:45:04 <yeah_its_gloria> so if I write a separate header and interface with Steam via DLL calls instead is this now GPL compatibler
14:45:52 <peter1138> (Okay, part of the first sentence is)
14:48:11 <yeah_its_gloria> > Keep in mind that according to the Steam Distribution Agreement you warrant and represent that you have all necessary rights to distribute the game via Steam.
14:48:11 <yeah_its_gloria> > This can happen if the author of the code that is GPL-licensed has given the permission to do so.
14:48:11 <yeah_its_gloria> what stops a license exemption to code implementing Steamworks support if the user enables the build system option necessary for that
14:49:10 <truebrain> OpenTTD is licensed under GPL. Getting an excemption would mean contacting all authors, to check if they agree with the excemption. Pretty sure a few will say: I don't agree 🙂
14:49:20 <peter1138> OpenTTD is nearly 20 years old. There's a lot of authors to require an exemption.
14:49:22 <truebrain> I always forget how to write that word 😄
14:49:39 <yeah_its_gloria> ...but then everyone agreed to have OpenTTD published on Steam itself?
14:49:57 <yeah_its_gloria> Valve themselves don't seem to draw a line between those
14:50:13 <truebrain> You can have this hostile approach to this conversation, or just assume we had this conversations many times before 🙂
14:51:26 <truebrain> LordAro: that uses a new library that doesn't appears to be mentioned .. hmm
14:52:10 <LordAro> lovely lovely deprecation
14:52:14 <truebrain> Which is an unmaintained method of talking to Discord 😄
14:52:31 <truebrain> but, MIT licensed, so that PR is completely valid within its license 🙂
14:53:16 <LordAro> appears to be some sort of server side plugin?
14:53:30 <truebrain> there is a similar project for OpenTTD
14:53:52 <truebrain> one of the multiplayer servers use it
14:54:05 <yeah_its_gloria> that's a chat sync plugin, not really related to this
14:55:13 <LordAro> but anyway, sorry yeah_its_gloria, but we have had this extremely protracted discussion on multiple occasions before - #8952 is the way to go, even if that PR is currently a bit dead
14:55:21 <LordAro> i know it sucks to be told 'no' like this
14:57:22 <truebrain> or, looking at the reverse: #8952 could use someone picking up the work 😄
14:59:04 <LordAro> a steam plugin would absolutely be appreciated if the above were completed, we'd probably even want to make it official and distribute it on our website (and with the steam download?!)
14:59:09 <LordAro> but it cannot be part of OTTD itself
14:59:44 <yeah_its_gloria> I understand that changing the license to explicitly permit this would take a ton of effort that is probably Not Worth It™️, but it just seems really silly to me to be so hardline against linking against *any* (optional, if this means much) closed source software when the validity of this policy is questioned directly by the fact we don't seem to mind plugins
15:00:01 <yeah_its_gloria> LordAro: is OTTD itself the executable, by this I mean can the plugin be part of the source tree
15:00:56 <LordAro> that's an excellent question
15:01:14 <LordAro> we have other non-GPL things in the source tree (libraries, mostly), so i don't see why not
15:01:27 <LordAro> i'd probably say it's neater overall to have it as a separate repo though
15:01:41 <truebrain> license-wise, it has to be in another repo
15:01:58 <truebrain> the other libraries we drag in, vendor it, basically, but they are written by other authors
15:02:10 <truebrain> you don't want to mix 1 repo with 2 pieces of software with different licenses by the same authors
15:02:13 <truebrain> that is just asking for trouble 😄
15:02:31 <truebrain> and repos are cheap
15:02:39 <truebrain> distribution-wise, we also need to take care of it slightly different
15:02:58 <truebrain> sadly, we can't use BaNaNaS for it 😛
15:04:24 <truebrain> binaries on BaNaNaS? No 😄
15:04:37 <truebrain> just the horror ....... 😄
15:05:12 <truebrain> the nice thing about a rich presence API, is that we don't actually care with what software it binds. People can write plugins for what-ever software they fancy
15:05:34 <truebrain> so not only Steam or Discord, but just .. any software that has a rich presence 🙂
15:05:37 <LordAro> might be more palatable if it were official binaries only(tm)... but yeah
15:06:04 <yeah_its_gloria> I mean a plugin infrastructure would benefit anything driver related with that
15:06:06 <truebrain> hmm, reminds me, we need to check if GOG offers any of it
15:06:17 <yeah_its_gloria> at least their galaxy client thing should
15:06:42 <truebrain> as it basically means we would need to do both Steam and GOG at the same time 🙂
15:06:59 <truebrain> something something equality on all platforms
15:07:05 <yeah_its_gloria> I mean that was a goal
15:07:25 <yeah_its_gloria> I figured most people do play this on Steam compared to GOG although I have no numbers on hand
15:07:32 <yeah_its_gloria> hence priorities™️
15:07:46 <truebrain> well, we have shown you the way forward!
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15:08:16 <yeah_its_gloria> I am currently groaning in disappointment while I have to let the GPL dance on my efforts
15:08:41 <LordAro> s'alright, we can all blame ludde for choosing it originally in 2004 :p
15:08:58 <yeah_its_gloria> is the person that did the original social platform thingy PR still alive and well
15:09:42 <truebrain> jfs: is here, yes. If he is "well" .. are any of us? really? 😄
15:10:46 <yeah_its_gloria> ~~is a PR of a PR a good idea~~
15:11:55 <yeah_its_gloria> so you attempted solving a problem in 2021 that I happen to have Now
15:12:12 <yeah_its_gloria> but your efforts have gone uh awol perhaps
15:12:15 <yeah_its_gloria> so `what do we do`
15:13:00 <jfs> most of the actual code is probably not usable any longer with the changes to the game's networking internals no
15:13:40 <jfs> though there were two parts, the integration library API and the stuff in the game itself that discovers and calls those
15:14:40 <yeah_its_gloria> so I guess replicating that would be a good idea I guess
15:17:24 <jfs> I think I had that working
15:18:50 <jfs> and then there's network/social_presence.(cpp|h) for the API that the rest of the game calls to init and communicate with any plugins
15:19:35 <alfagamma7> Would that mean longer startup times though?
15:19:46 <jfs> I think those three files can be ported over to a current version of the game mostly unchanged, the hard part will be finding all the spots to call the various state changes
15:20:08 <LordAro> alfagamma7: doubtful it would be more than a few extra microseconds
15:20:25 <LordAro> as long, of course, the plugin was behaving itself
15:20:45 <jfs> I mean, if a poorly written plugin blocks for a whole minute while waiting for some server to time out, that's on the plugin being poorly written
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15:24:13 <jfs> and, a big point of the discord plugin above is that it could be GPL licensed (the actual license I've applied is MIT), so it could be distributed along with the game, and exist as an example of the API not being designed solely to interoperate with non-GPL-compatible code
15:26:30 <jfs> as far as I remember, a big part of what's _missing_ is a way for the game to be able to be launched from not-running state to connect to a network server, and for multiple versions of the game to be able to exist on a single machine and be able to select the right version to connect to some server launch link given
15:26:49 <jfs> I have some vague ideas for how that can be done, but not fully formed
15:27:06 <truebrain> there is a PR attempting to do that
15:27:10 <truebrain> but you most likely know 🙂
15:27:35 <jfs> one of the use cases for that would be e.g. having the vanilla version and JGR's version available side by side
15:28:03 <truebrain> but 2 different projects there jfs 🙂 Let's not try to overwhelm people 😛
15:28:22 <jfs> yeah, step one is just being able to show your status on something
15:28:29 <jfs> step two is allowing others to join
15:29:00 <truebrain> and I guess two-A would be to do that when both have the client running
15:29:10 <truebrain> two-B would be to launch the client if it didn't? 🙂
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16:29:22 <yeah_its_gloria> figuring out callbacks with the way steam does it makes plugins a nightmare
16:29:24 <yeah_its_gloria> thank you valve
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16:42:19 <peter1138> OnClickFunc x = {this, WID_GO_TAB_GENERAL, [this](Point, int widget, int) { this->SetTab(widget); }};
16:42:23 <peter1138> Well that's... different.
16:42:50 <peter1138> Not exactly elegant.
17:39:05 <peter1138> But this doesn't particularly gain anything useful, so.
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18:38:10 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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20:12:37 <brickblock19280> *politer cough* please
20:19:53 <_zephyris> *most polite possible cough*
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21:15:15 <talltyler> _zephyris: It needs a rebase and re-approval due to conflicts 😦
21:29:41 <brickblock19280> I can't find it mentioned at the nfo page but I might not be good enough at nfo
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