IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-10-12
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06:11:22 <locosage> let's see if I can repro this...
06:27:40 <alfagamma7> locosage: How it feels to be stuck in a traffic jam
06:28:14 <dwfreed> and then poof, everybody's gone
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10:27:37 <pickpacket> *sigh* I asked for a link to the issue with dP's exploit because I couldn't find it myself. And someone here kindly gave it to me. And now I've lost it and can't find it. Again. 🤦
10:29:09 <peter1138> As far as I know there was an issue report, you need to look at PRs.
10:30:40 <dwfreed> peter1138: technically a PR is an issue with an associated branch :P
10:31:18 <dwfreed> (it used to be possible to convert an issue into a PR with the API; don't know if that's still possible)
10:31:22 <peter1138> Behind the scenes, yes, but in github they are separate. So the distinction matters.
10:31:32 <peter1138> (In the github web interface, that is)
10:35:16 <peter1138> Only you know what you were looking for.
10:37:02 <pickpacket> nope. Not even I do :D
10:39:10 <pickpacket> dP showed an exploit where they built a RV depot and a road leading from it of only a few tiles. Each tile had a passenger station. They then bought a bunch of buses and sent them out (without orders, I believe) and some of them racked up hundreds of thousands of GBP a year even thought they *should* be losing money
10:39:27 <pickpacket> I know it's been fixed, but I want to know how it worked :D
10:40:17 <peter1138> That's probably the one. One of the issues with the PR is it didn't actually explain much.
10:45:19 <pickpacket> At least I think I know how the exploit worked now
10:48:06 <locosage> pickpacket: yes, that's the right PR, along with 11283
10:48:06 <locosage> it fixes the most important part of that exploit but it intentionally doesn't explain every detail about it
10:49:37 <locosage> I'll probably make a detailed explanation once 14 releases
10:49:41 <pickpacket> "after this PR, you can no longer misuse the free labour given to you by station workers" <--- But I *want to* exploit the working class!
10:49:56 <pickpacket> locosage: I'd very much love to read that :)
10:56:54 <locosage> pickpacket: I attached the save in 11274
10:58:40 <pickpacket> locosage: it's the solution I don't understand. "Get the vector of each leg the cargo traveled, Add those vectors up, Get the Manhattan distance of this total vector, This is your distance traveled."
10:59:17 <pickpacket> A mathematical vector... is that a direction?
11:00:00 <locosage> as I've been told by openttd devs that's anything but direction xD
11:00:29 <locosage> but, yeah, it is direction :p
11:01:27 <locosage> it's probably much simple to understand with an image
11:01:30 <locosage> that I don't have xD
11:01:43 <locosage> maybe I should make a video xD
11:01:46 <peter1138> Saying direction is like saying angle. Does not tell you how far at all.
11:02:54 <locosage> displacement is the actual word as I understand it
11:02:54 <peter1138> Given how far is pretty important here, and we already use the term "direction" to mean one of the 8 directions possible on a grid, the distinction matters.
11:05:52 <peter1138> Neither distance nor displacement involve direction. They're just the length part.
11:06:07 <peter1138> Anyway, it's done :p
11:06:08 <locosage> yeah, displacement vector to be more precise
11:06:43 <peter1138> Or simply "vector".
11:07:07 <pickpacket> peter1138: I'm just trying to understand it :D
11:17:31 <pickpacket> Math is not my forte, and I'm trying to wrap my head around what "Get the vector of each leg the cargo traveled" means. It doesn't help that my brain keeps thinking of the Java class Vector instead of the mathematical usage
11:24:09 <_jgr_> It's really just the sum of differences between the start and end tiles for each leg
11:25:11 <_jgr_> Without normalising the leg differences into scalars
11:26:14 <pickpacket> the manhattan distance for each leg?
11:26:23 <_jgr_> No, not the manhattan distance
11:27:46 <pickpacket> "sum of differences" between two x,y coordinates? 🤔
11:27:47 <_jgr_> The difference in coordinates, i.e. an x, y pair
11:29:02 <pickpacket> oh, so if the leg starts at (-9,10) and ends at (0,9) the vector would be... uhhh... (0--9,9-10) = (9,-1)?
11:29:03 <_jgr_> In the end it's the manhattan distance of the sum of delta X and delta Y, not the sum of the individual manhattan distances
11:55:55 <locosage> basically you can view it like this: take the whole path, cut out parts where cargo moved within station (i.e. between unload and load tiles), shift each leg to close those gaps so the path is continuous again and calculate the manhattan distance between start and finish
12:03:22 <peter1138> andythenorth, Bedstead as terminal font?
12:04:09 <andythenorth> quite angular eh
12:04:57 <pickpacket> locosage: I understand that that's the result of it, but I'm trying to grip the actual mechanics :)
12:06:46 <locosage> well, actual mechanics don't get the vector of each leg, they calculate it with load/unload tiles on the fly
12:11:53 <pickpacket> (did something get lost over the IRC<->discord bridge?
12:12:16 <locosage> oh, I replied to old discord message
12:12:23 <locosage> guess bridge doesn't handle that..
12:13:45 <locosage> basically, instead of `(end1 - start1) + (end2 - start2) + ...`
12:13:45 <locosage> I'm doing `(((-start1 + end1) - start2) + end2) - ...`
12:13:45 <locosage> or, to be more precise `start1 - end1 + start2 - end2 +...` which is effectively the same
12:14:58 <locosage> it's all vector math, so x and y are calculated separately
12:31:16 <pickpacket> ah! Makes sense! Ty :)
12:32:12 <peter1138> andythenorth, needs interlacing and blurry smoothing to be authentic.
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13:57:49 <peter1138> Baseset bug I believe. The original pillar is just one at the rear, not two separated by a tile-space.
13:58:56 <peter1138> No pillar is drawn for the far end, it comes from the 2nd tile in.
14:00:19 <_zephyris> So original graphics peculiarity, with OpenTTD behaviour to match.
14:02:37 <peter1138> The layout is different for different bridge types.
14:02:55 <peter1138> For basesets you have to match the original bridge type layouts.
14:05:08 <peter1138> If a baseset could change the layout, then a NewGRF bridge designed with the original layout in mind would end up wrong.
14:11:45 <_zephyris> It's just an odd inconsistency that seems specific to the tubular.
14:12:26 <peter1138> Sure, but it is deliberate.
14:12:36 <peter1138> Therefore, not an OpenTTD bug :)
14:13:41 <peter1138> Doubled-support without gap may be the correct way to fix it for this layout.
14:16:40 <peter1138> Or rather "work-around" than "fix".
15:05:14 <andythenorth> peter1138: can we simulate a cub monitor?
15:06:19 <andythenorth> webcam pointing at it 😛
15:06:25 <peter1138> Yes, all this stuff which was binned as it was considered junk is now "worth" lots.
15:06:26 <andythenorth> then teach GPT to simulate it
15:08:30 <peter1138> Remember all that hype around NFTs for a couple of years, and now it's pretty much dead and gone?
15:08:47 <peter1138> That, but 'AI' and GPT.
15:10:47 <peter1138> Why are people selling modern stuff on eBay for more than I can buy it new?
15:16:03 <andythenorth> exploiting an information gap 😛
15:17:02 <peter1138> I had a colleague it would work on. His first purchasing place was eBay, and he always assumed every price on there was always better.
15:17:48 <andythenorth> it is usually where I can find the cheapest price for anything that isn't cheaper on Amazon
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16:16:57 <peter1138> Hmm, do I ride tonight...
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16:47:51 <peter1138> Damn, I just had to ask...
16:57:01 <alfagamma7> I rather prefer evenings
16:57:06 <alfagamma7> or late afternoons
16:57:46 <peter1138> Well evening/night, not much difference this time of year.
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18:31:04 <LordAro> 14 files changed, 260 insertions(+), 1211 deletions(-)
18:31:06 <LordAro> i'll take that, for about 3 hours work
18:31:26 <LordAro> including the removal of one linked list implementation and one stack implementation
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20:12:27 <peter1138> LordAro, OpenTTD or $work?
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20:47:07 <LordAro> very little time or energy for OTTD at the moment
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22:33:53 <kamnet> Just a heads up, I'm seeing an uptick in complaints that users trying to connect directly to others for multiplayer games are encountering network issues. Might it be an issue with OpenTTD services?
22:34:50 <_glx_> usually it's on the host side
23:01:02 <peter1138> Supersekrit backchannels
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