IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-10-13
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05:06:48 <LordAro> _glx_: i think we should do better than immediately dismiss our users
05:06:59 <LordAro> especially when the report comes from kamnet
05:07:18 <LordAro> and none of us except truebrain have any idea if anything's actually wrong
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06:37:22 <truebrain> LordAro: Well, that is a bunch of bull, so lay it all on me 😛 Pretty sure you are all capable of seeing if it works for you, asking users for logs, etc
06:37:38 <truebrain> So = To, stupid autocorrect 😦
06:40:26 <truebrain> So I too think "we" should do better, and all take an interest in what users are reporting. It is a bit ironic, that you say "we" and then dump it all on me 😛
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06:41:19 <_pruple> "you" do the work, "we" take the credit... that's how the world works, right? 😉
06:52:34 <peter1138> I'd like to know where this uptick is. There's nothing on Github, IRC, Discord, tt-forums or Reddit.
06:58:02 <truebrain> peter1138: in Discord channel #openttd-help there is one report yesterday: `Im trying to join a game with a friend, but when we host and try to join eachother's multiplayer games, it stops authorizing and gives a network connection error. We can still join other multiplayer games, just not eachothers. What can we do to fix this?`
07:03:58 <peter1138> Invite code +AqR67ZB, Connection type Behind NAT.
07:05:37 <peter1138> Direct connection failed (probably because client and server are on the same network...), but it the relay popup worked.
07:06:05 <truebrain> yeah, you were one of those people with a broken NAT router 😛
07:06:12 <truebrain> where you cannot connect to your public IP from your local network 🙂
07:07:49 <truebrain> we could improve on that btw, as we see server/client coming from the same IP. But relaying works fine too. So a lot of effort for most likely only a few people 🙂
07:08:11 <peter1138> I do have an explicit srcnat rule to allow that.
07:10:17 <truebrain> correct answer ofc is: use the Find LAN servers button when it is on your local LAN
07:10:34 <peter1138> Hehe, that doesn't help this situation :)
07:11:24 <peter1138> I have a hairpin rule for local-lan to local-lan.
07:11:53 <peter1138> So not an explicit srcnat rule to allow it.
07:12:52 <peter1138> And my nat rules are set up only for WAN interfaces. Talking to the external IP internally doesn't involve traffic leaving over the WAN, so it's working.
07:13:42 <peter1138> This is not "broken NAT" this is just normal NAT without some hidden rule that the locked-down consumer routers might have.
07:13:57 <truebrain> we had the talk before about this 🙂
07:14:09 <truebrain> most consumer routers do allow this, as it is RFC specd it should be allowed
07:14:16 <truebrain> that was surprising, a few years ago 🙂
07:15:16 <truebrain> and I think the reason you added your snat rules 😛
07:18:37 <truebrain> lol, took me a while to make my server "Behind NAT" again (it for some reason was public), just to confirm it actually stil works for me. But I can join from my own network into a game that is "Behind NAT"
07:18:41 <truebrain> so that didn't break, pfew
07:19:29 <truebrain> for your reference peter1138, what it does is: it sends a STUN request to both, and tells both server/client to connect to the other pair. So it tries to connect to your public IP on random ports above the 32,000
07:19:44 <truebrain> but a `-dnet=4` will tell you in detail 🙂
07:21:24 <peter1138> So your connection to me with STUN or relay?
07:22:41 <truebrain> `dbg: [net] Connected to x.y.z.a:51048`
07:26:06 <truebrain> reason most routers allow this btw, is VoIP 😛
07:26:32 <truebrain> used to be a real hassle to get VoIP phones being able to call each other in the same network, for this exact reason 😄
07:26:49 <truebrain> (VoIP setups almost always uses STUN/TURN)
07:28:26 <truebrain> why did we have this conversation? Ah, yes, user issues. I think in general, if a user is on the same network, we should advise them to use the Search LAN, and not use the invite code.
07:31:54 <peter1138> Okay, my hairpin rule works for explicit port-forwarding. But apparently not the magic that happens with STUN.
07:32:07 <truebrain> it is a completely random port
07:32:20 <truebrain> so you would have to allow 32000+, basically
07:32:25 <truebrain> well, not that random, I guess
07:42:02 <peter1138> Hmm, you can close the relay popup and it doesn't count as No.
07:43:09 <truebrain> odd; I remember there are a few more odd things about the behaviour of when the GUI makes connections etc
07:43:43 <truebrain> when writing the STUN/TURN I tried to scope the work to not involve the whole networking GUI itself; but this sound like a silly thing that is easily fixable 🙂
07:55:18 <peter1138> Hmm, so I either add a flag to the window to say if a button was pressed, and then test it in Close(), or I generalise it and add a parameter to Window::Close() to indicate if an action should be performed...
07:55:40 <truebrain> well, I struggled with it; so I prefer the latter 😛
07:56:05 <truebrain> (at least, I assume your first solution would be local to the window; the seconds sound generic)
07:56:07 <peter1138> There's only 38 instances of void Close() override, so not that many to replace.
07:56:29 <truebrain> I am sure some other window solved that closing caused an effect .. but finding that is annoying
07:56:37 <truebrain> so yeah, Close sounds like a nice way to solve that for now and in the future 🙂
07:56:41 <peter1138> I assume performing the action in Close() is better than doing it in the destructor.
07:56:58 <truebrain> dtors should be as empty as possible, right? 😄
07:58:20 <peter1138> Hmm, bool or int parameter. I think int as it allows more, like OnInvalidateData does.
08:03:46 <truebrain> sounds like the other friend 😄
08:06:29 <truebrain> so ....... when you make an image with DrawIO's VSCode plugin in Dark Mode .. the export is also in Dark Mode
08:06:37 <truebrain> which is annoying, as I need to add it to a Powerpoint presentation
08:06:42 <truebrain> which is in Light Mode
08:07:58 <truebrain> owh, no, it is kinda in Dark Mode, kinda not .. wow, this is just freaky and weird
08:16:35 <kamnet> I'm tired. Keeping tabs on pre-WW3 activity is wearing me out.
08:17:28 <truebrain> so just follow this logic: is there anything you can do to change anything about the outcome of what-ever is going to happen? no? Just close all those tabs. What ever happens, happens. And acceptance is bliss 🙂
08:18:43 <peter1138> It is damned terrible but there is nothing I can do about it.
08:18:56 <kamnet> I'm relaying what's happening to people who want to understand what is going on, but are extremely stressed out by the mere act of reading news and become paranoid.k
08:19:18 <truebrain> so learn them too .. being stressed about shit like this is, how ever sad, pointless
08:19:25 <truebrain> unless you are in a position to influence the outcome, ofc
08:20:34 <kamnet> They're not stressed out by the events themselves, just reading news in general is overwhelming for them. Me explaining it to them helps with their mental health.
08:21:09 <truebrain> I just stopped reading most news outlets .. really helped for my mental health
08:21:20 <truebrain> hacker news and some light "positive shit that is happening" is enough for me 😄
08:21:41 <kamnet> And since I'm also aware of what triggers certain responses, i can avoid presenting that kinda trama. I'm KNNN 😄
08:21:42 <truebrain> (just all other words to say: what a fucked-up world we live in :P)
08:30:03 <LordAro> truebrain: sorry, didn't mean that, was more aiming for "you don't know, don't just dismiss it out of hand"
08:30:32 <truebrain> it was just a bit ironic 😄
08:30:46 <truebrain> but no worries, all good
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08:41:36 <peter1138> Oof, it's somewhat pissing down.
08:43:02 <peter1138> And definitely going to need the leg warmers tomorrow...
08:43:49 <truebrain> so I assumed "pissing down" was slang for "raining" .. but then LordAro said "me too", and now I am confused
08:43:49 <peter1138> Feel like is 5°C at 7am!
08:44:01 <peter1138> truebrain, it is, so... I dunno either.
08:44:14 <truebrain> should we worry now about LordAro, if he is "raining"?
08:44:21 <truebrain> or is he texting from the can?
08:45:40 <truebrain> 😄 That makes more sense 😛
09:57:27 <peter1138> Hmm, I 'need' a cli tool to combine SVG files into a single SVG file. There's something called "svgstore" but it's one of these bollocks Node.js things.
09:58:56 <peter1138> Ah there's a python thing.
09:59:44 <peter1138> Which uses svgo, another npm thing.
10:00:23 <truebrain> You can't escape it 😛
10:00:57 <peter1138> npm2deb/stable,stable 0.3.0-12 all tool to help debianize Node.js modules
10:04:29 <peter1138> 0 upgraded, 392 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
10:04:29 <peter1138> Need to get 26.5 MB of archives.
10:04:31 <peter1138> After this operation, 164 MB of additional disk space will be used.
10:04:37 <peter1138> That is just "apt install npm"
10:06:46 <peter1138> > "Default yarn package is just an alias to cmdtest. It is not yarn."
10:07:50 <peter1138> 0 upgraded, 336 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
10:07:50 <peter1138> Need to get 23.4 MB of archives.
10:07:51 <peter1138> After this operation, 147 MB of additional disk space will be used.
10:08:48 <peter1138> Not something I want my CI to install every time, so that would mean rolling my own base image... urgh.
10:09:53 <LordAro> there are an awful lot of node images around
10:14:58 <peter1138> My build image is dotnet/sdk, the stackoverflow "solution" is to install curl, then download a node setup script and pipe it into bash... Urgh.
10:17:44 <peter1138> I guess I could try a separate build step that doesn't integrate with dotnet build.
10:18:26 <peter1138> Bleh. Would still need it all locally for local builds.
10:26:35 <peter1138> Okay, maybe I'll just do it manually and hope these things don't change too much :)
10:39:19 <peter1138> Ah, of course, that python tool is very old and not python 3...
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10:58:08 <peter1138> lol, drag & drop from file-roller (GNOME Archive Manager) to nautilus (GNOME Files) does not work... because gtk3 vs gtk4.
11:01:35 <truebrain> you can try "bun"; they claim it is smaller and faster than npm 😛
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11:29:49 <LordAro> i read about that a while back
11:34:15 <truebrain> first want to see it before I start to believe it 😄
11:40:59 <LordAro> ship separation would be nice though
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12:10:52 <LordAro> is maybe_unused needed on all overrides?
12:13:10 <peter1138> It's needed where it's maybe_unused ;)
12:13:36 <peter1138> I did wonder, so I followed the pattern of OnInvalidateData, which keeps the attribute even if the parameter is used.
12:14:52 <LordAro> i was more expecting it to only be needed on the original virtual declaration
12:15:04 <_glx_> there's a hidden timeout for relay popup
12:22:21 <peter1138> CloseWindowByClass could do with the data parameter then.
12:26:16 <peter1138> ShowNetworkAskRelay also closes any other instance of itself.
12:31:05 <peter1138> That one is probably important to take care of as there's only one _network_coordinator_client.
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12:55:23 <truebrain> I love how we all yell here "not a bug", but nobody closes it 😛
12:56:04 <truebrain> and don't tell me "none of us except TrueBrain" could do it 😛 😛 😛 (sorry, joke had to be made 😄 )
12:56:55 <LordAro> none of us except truebrain's MBP
12:57:17 <truebrain> no, andythenorth has the MBP 😛
12:57:34 <truebrain> I actually have a normal system 🙂
13:30:07 <talltyler> That PR got Zorged so hard, I really thought somebody else had a problem with it…but no, just one very squeaky wheel.
13:38:31 <peter1138> Okay, so I got my SVG icon sprites working... but its slow :/
13:39:43 <peter1138> It's the browser rendering it, it seems, it gets deferred.
13:45:53 <peter1138> Hmm, I better find some cable ties for the mudguards.
13:50:57 <peter1138> I can make the flicker go by... inline the svg into my html source. Urgh.
13:52:40 <peter1138> Given it's nearly 14KB, Nope!
13:53:10 <peter1138> I'm clearly not a true modern web app developer. That'd all be hidden behind the loading time of a huge single-page app...
14:19:36 <andythenorth> truebrain: I could have closed it
14:26:43 <peter1138> They're only good for surveillance.
14:27:19 <alfagamma7> Any device can be a surveillance device though
14:41:28 <andythenorth> I am a surveillance device
14:51:03 <_pruple> but are you a device?
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15:26:05 <peter1138> Convoluted shell script that uses svgo to optimize the supplied svg files and output them to "A.svg" "B.svg" etc, then a script that imports those svg into a fontforge sfd file (hence the single-letter names, that's the glyph), and then I run a fontforge script to output that to .woff2.
15:26:28 <peter1138> And now I can reference my icons in .css, and use them much like font-awesome etc icons.
15:26:49 <peter1138> No flicker-on-load <svg><use>...
15:26:57 <peter1138> I can't believe I've 'wasted' all day on this :/
15:28:31 <peter1138> svgo required yarnpkg.
15:28:40 <peter1138> So there's absolutely no way to script this for the CI.
15:28:51 <peter1138> Well there is but I just can't be bothered.
15:30:10 <peter1138> Improvement would be to make it provide the correct mapping from input svg file name to glyph. Adding icons will mess up the glyph order :)
15:38:31 <LordAro> just need to make sure any new svg file name is alphabetically after the previous
15:38:38 <LordAro> add an increasing number of _
15:42:35 <Rubidium> can I underscore that might be a bad idea? ;D
15:46:32 <peter1138> Yes, I could just numerically name the source files.
15:46:59 <peter1138> Oh yes, I need to buy new gear cable...
15:47:15 <peter1138> Do I trust that the outers don't need replacing...
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16:23:59 <peter1138> Urgh. got my bike out the shed to attach mudguards just in time.
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18:30:16 <andythenorth> love the game though
18:30:24 <andythenorth> do you folks do feature requests?
18:31:14 <truebrain> depends; did you pay the fee?
18:34:11 <truebrain> hmm, I don't have a mention of that in my system; are you sure?
18:34:26 <alfagamma7> Fee in what kind though
18:34:44 <truebrain> That is need-to-know
18:37:09 <andythenorth> if you check your system, you should find a transaction for £0.00
18:37:17 <andythenorth> although it may show in your local currency
18:37:20 <andythenorth> so the amount might vary
18:37:27 <alfagamma7> What a significant amount
18:49:22 <andythenorth> the penalty for train being longer than station: could we make it a player setting?
18:49:28 <andythenorth> then we could have curved stations
18:49:51 <truebrain> peter1138: in a perfect world, it would punish us for using it where it isn't unused, honestly 😛
18:51:28 <truebrain> but I assumed frosch only added it in places it was actually unused; not in places it might become unused, or something vague
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20:23:42 <talltyler> andythenorth: Would through loading be an acceptable substitute? I am planning to upstream that already.
20:35:02 <andythenorth> I mean it's neat
20:35:06 <andythenorth> I find it confusing to use 🙂
20:39:43 <peter1138> Such curved platforms
20:42:51 <andythenorth> hmm doesn't quite work 😛
20:42:55 <andythenorth> train doesn't go to the end
20:43:21 <peter1138> I had a patch for that...
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20:58:20 <bigyihsuan> andythenorth: using throughload?
20:58:24 <bigyihsuan> wait that's not in vanilla
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