IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-07-27
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09:01:32 <casemate_crusader> Idea animated level crossings
09:08:46 <truebrain> hmm ... that moment you modified a script that handles scaling up and down your EC2 instances, and you need to test it ...
09:08:54 <truebrain> only way to test it is by live-testing!
09:09:01 <truebrain> some TCP connections might drop 😛
09:10:23 <peter1138> Just turn the macbook off
09:10:39 <peter1138> I'm sure this is getting old, sorry.
09:18:20 <truebrain> no, honestly, I think it is still funny 😛
09:20:55 <truebrain> okay ... time to upgrade Nomad to a version I did not patch myself 😄 (they accepted all my patches)
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09:34:34 <truebrain> right, cluster all healthy, and looking good 🙂
09:50:55 <truebrain> still need to migrate the IRC bridge; but that is a bit tricky, because it needs an IPv6-range
09:51:11 <peter1138> I need to learn this cloud stuff 😦
09:51:20 <truebrain> or don't, if you like your current job 🙂
09:51:28 <truebrain> job .. field of expertise .. what-ever 😛
09:51:37 <peter1138> My current job wants to move to cloud, so... yeah.
09:51:47 <truebrain> ah, yes, well ... good luck 😄 Lots to learn 😛
09:51:59 <peter1138> And while I don't have that much attachment to it any more, it's easier to keep an existing job than finding a new one 🙂
09:52:18 <truebrain> and you read how resistant people are against using actual cloud 😛
09:52:38 <truebrain> as clearly a Macbook Pro is also "cloud" or something
09:56:52 <peter1138> Hmm, do I need S3 or EFS... write once, read a few times, private data.
09:57:13 <peter1138> Yeah, I will "set up my own cloud" which is ... a macbook pro in the closet?
09:57:31 <truebrain> I mostly pick either S3 or EFS depending on how I need to access the data
09:57:35 <truebrain> EFS is an NFS filesystem
09:57:40 <truebrain> S3 is an object store
09:58:45 <peter1138> I think EFS fits how this system works currently (in fact its using CIFS mounts for shared storage right now)
09:59:01 <peter1138> But S3 may be better if it costs a lot less.
09:59:08 <truebrain> S3 is a lot more work, if you current use a mount. As you need to talk via HTTP to the S3 (ideally via a library)
09:59:26 <truebrain> cost-wise, it depends on how much data, how often you access it, etc 😄
10:02:25 <truebrain> (and no, don't think for a second that moving to the cloud is simple .. there are a lot of nuances, and you will get things wrong the first time .. and second .. and third 😛 Like S3 or EFS .. you pick one, find out the limitations, get annoying, pick the other, find out it is even worse, etc 😄 )
10:02:49 <truebrain> but to give some examples: our wiki-cache or eints-cache is stored in EFS. BaNaNaS uploads in S3
10:02:57 <peter1138> It's mostly HTML files and PDFs that can be generated on the fly but aren't for business and performance reasons.
10:03:11 <truebrain> S3 is the more proper storage for that
10:03:12 <peter1138> Hmm, 20GB over the past 3 years.
10:04:21 <peter1138> The reason the PDFs are stored is because producing one takes about 4-5 seconds, and then downloading lots of them in one go becomes a bottleneck.
10:04:53 <truebrain> yeah, typically S3 is a good solution for that. Also because you can have different tiers of storage there, were files are automatically migrated
10:05:03 <truebrain> often you see recent files are accessed more than ones a year old
10:05:11 <truebrain> so you can migrate them away to lower tiers, which are slower, but far less expensive
10:05:31 <truebrain> S3 has a nice hot/cold solution, basically, with some things in between hot and cold
10:05:44 <truebrain> or, Cloudflare R2, which is most of the time even cheaper 😛
10:05:54 <peter1138> Usually only the last month will be accessed, but there's always someone who wants data containing 3 months from a year+ ago
10:05:54 <truebrain> (Cloudflare R2 is a drop-in replacement for AWS S3)
10:06:10 <truebrain> yeah, so S3 is a good fit. But changing from a CIFS to S3 is ... work 🙂
10:06:31 <truebrain> so it might be cheaper to just use EFS; as the amount it costs a month is far less than the time it takes you to develop S3 support 😛
10:06:48 <truebrain> (S3 is not complicated btw; but it is work)
10:07:13 <truebrain> 20GB is something like 50 eurocent + usage per month
10:07:51 <truebrain> just know that S3 has a lot of 9s in terms of availability; data is synced between DCs etc etc
10:07:55 <truebrain> EFS has less of that
10:08:03 <truebrain> so backups with EFS are more important
10:08:09 <peter1138> Fortunately my file access is fairly well abstracted so with an appropriate library it should be fine.
10:08:15 <truebrain> (ironically, AWS has DataSync, where you can sync an EFS to S3 😛 )
10:08:42 <truebrain> well, if it is abstracted, it is fairly easy 🙂
10:08:59 <truebrain> just realise you are making HTTP connections when using S3, so authentication needs to be setup 🙂
10:09:10 <truebrain> (also not difficult, but .. needs to be done 😄 )
10:10:02 <truebrain> and talking about DataSync .. setting that up for OpenTTD's EFS as we speak 😛 Currently I backup EFS / S3 / Cloudflare R2 to my local machine every blue moon or so .. I should look into a more automated approach, honestly .. I wonder what is a good idea there .. hmm
10:13:38 <peter1138> Probably switching to S3 makes sense: it can be done separately from moving database/webhosting to cloud, and means that the webhosting setup becomes easier because it doesn't need any fs mounts.
10:14:16 <truebrain> not needing mounts is always good when talking about cloud infra 😄
10:14:35 <truebrain> (as that means you can scale up your instances hosting the website easily)
10:16:25 <peter1138> I feel like I should have paid you already for this advice 😉 Everything I look for elsewhere just seems to assume you know what you are doing, and just lists the services but not why you'd want them. Or says that you should just run it on a macbook pro.
10:16:58 <truebrain> that is by far the most difficult thing about Cloud
10:17:03 <truebrain> understanding what is available, and what to use when
10:17:11 <truebrain> it is also when AWS consultancy is such a big business
10:17:18 <peter1138> 11:15, not time for a bikkit
10:17:29 <truebrain> 12:17, time for lunch! Good point 🙂
11:02:47 <peter1138> Yeah, now it's lunch time 😄
11:09:50 <andythenorth> peter1138: might be time for a orange I think
11:10:29 <peter1138> I've got a salad... predicatble
11:38:59 <_glx_> Hmm 2 "can't connect to any server" messages in the last 30 minutes
11:39:28 <kamnet> Yes a couple of users have reported it in the other forums this morning.
11:39:28 <kamnet> 7:27 AM]Jegesdi: Something wrong with marco servers?? i cant able to join. Its stops 1/6 joining
11:39:28 <kamnet> [7:27 AM]Jegesdi: im repaired files in steam and restarted pc but not connect. 😮
11:39:28 <kamnet> [7:27 AM]Jegesdi: Not only marcos. I cant join any server
11:40:11 <kamnet> [7:08 AM]hosty: Do you have problem whit Connect to servers ?
11:40:11 <kamnet> [7:14 AM]TELK: I think so, my server's users also have troubles with connection unless connect with direct address (not an invite codes)
11:40:11 <kamnet> [7:15 AM]TELK: Seems like STUN server has a trouble...?
11:40:11 <kamnet> 7:21 AM]hosty: Cant Connect to Any servers, not even if i host One at my pc
11:41:04 <truebrain> so I have to puzzle this together myself, I see 😛
11:43:27 <truebrain> tnx kamnet ; that was just enough context to understand what you guys are talking about 🙂
11:43:46 <truebrain> for next time, please be a bit more specific .. like mentioning that the multiplayer of OpenTTD is giving that issue etc 😛 It really helps 🙂
11:44:47 <truebrain> for some reason, a connection error to redis doesn't crash the stun-server, where it does crash (rightfully) the others. But I tickled it, and it is running agian
11:45:12 <truebrain> (it was 1 of the 2 stun servers, so 50% chance things worked)
12:02:35 <LordAro> see if it was just running on a macbook, it would've been obvious it was broken
12:02:42 <LordAro> all this silly high availability lark
12:03:02 <truebrain> "Is the macbook on?" 😄
12:03:22 <truebrain> no, it is a bit silly, that the healthcheck was passing while the service wasn't operational .. that is not how it should be
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12:09:51 <keseliman> Hi guys there was a tutorial on how to draw trains but i couldn't able to locate it anyone know where it is ?
12:10:56 <andythenorth> I am running the internet on my MBP
12:11:13 <truebrain> explains a lot honestly
12:11:17 <andythenorth> if the internet goes away for a bit, it's because I've shut the lid
12:19:38 <truebrain> and when the internet is going foobar, can I also blame you? Google is doing scary shit, Twitter has an owner that tries to compensate, reddit has a CEO that might need some courses in communication management .. can you fix that on your macbook please?
12:20:34 <andythenorth> Sorry, as an AI Assistant I will help you wherever I can, but those requests fall outside the guidelines I must operate under.
12:21:54 <andythenorth> hmm I have 16 GPU cores, only 8 are used
12:22:02 <andythenorth> maybe I could run an LLM on them
12:22:51 <andythenorth> also if we wanted to run the internet on my MBP, there are some cores spare
12:48:23 <truebrain> Right, datasync online, now I can make backups of all our buckets; just in case 🙂
12:55:31 <andythenorth> you going to use more of my cores?
12:55:54 <andythenorth> can you let me know, as I'm watching YouTube and I don't want it to stutter
12:56:03 <andythenorth> YouTube is hosted on my MBP by the way
12:57:12 <truebrain> 70 MiB/s sync-speed with Cloudflare .. NOM NOM NOM
13:15:05 <truebrain> and this should prevent the problem of this morning to happen again
13:16:00 <truebrain> to happen? from happening ..
13:22:42 <truebrain> sadly means I am going to interrupt everyones game once again today, but such is life ..
13:24:07 <LordAro> ruining people's playstyle yet again
13:24:15 <LordAro> that playstyle being "actually playing"
13:24:18 <truebrain> should have hosted it on a MBP
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13:24:59 <efessel[d]> ok this explains why the reddit/vanilla servers don't appear in the pub list I guess?
13:26:24 <truebrain> a deployment resets all TURN connections; server-list has a minor disruption, but that is fixed before you can blink your eyes
13:28:07 <truebrain> oops, seems I didn't update that dorpsgek config file
13:29:01 <efessel[d]> hmmm our registration isn't listed, maybe I need to restart the server
13:29:34 <_glx_> Switch to private then public
13:29:49 <_glx_> No need to restart I think
13:32:07 <truebrain> guess I never enabled dependabot on those repos
13:32:29 <efessel[d]> _glx_: Thanks that did it
13:37:18 <truebrain> okay .. think that is all ... 🙂
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14:07:15 <truebrain> okay ... I think all repositories are now carrying the same configuration 🙂
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14:34:50 <truebrain> right, seems everything is up-to-date again .. good.
14:34:56 <truebrain> Monthly dependabot updates are much easier to deal with
14:37:00 <truebrain> meh, turn services still consume a lot of CPU. Not that the CPU usage is any issue, but it also means the latency is higher than I would like
14:37:06 <truebrain> guess I should look into better alternatives
14:37:16 <truebrain> Python isn't actually made for this stuff, ofc 🙂
14:42:15 <truebrain> well, yes, that would be a good suggestion
14:42:26 <truebrain> ideally via a WASM-runner, so moving it to other hosting platforms later is easier
14:42:52 <truebrain> (basically, at this point in time, one has to admit that Python won't have a long life for web-services, as it can't really be compiled to WASM in any sane way)
14:43:38 <truebrain> and by the looks, running WASM on the edge is going to be the next way to run web-services for the next few years 🙂
14:44:04 <truebrain> so Rust or Go, are the two languages atm
14:44:12 <truebrain> I touched Go .. I got scared.
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15:49:06 <Ronnie> Hello. I'm trying to download and install openttd-13.3
15:49:18 <Ronnie> I'm using debian linux
15:49:45 <Ronnie> I note there is an amd binary available.
15:50:08 <Ronnie> But I have an intel machine.
15:50:31 <Ronnie> Does this mean I have to download the source and compile?
15:50:40 <Ronnie> I have been trying to do this.
15:51:39 <Ronnie> I note the word Archive.
15:51:44 <Ronnie> Perhaps it is not current?
15:54:38 <pickpacket> Ronnie: the amd binary will work for you 🙂
15:54:56 <Ronnie> ok, I'll try that. Thanks.
15:55:03 <pickpacket> It’s the same cpu architecture as intel
15:55:40 <Ronnie> ~/2023/download/openttd-13.3-linux-generic-amd64$ bash: ./openttd: cannot execute binary file: Exec format error
15:55:53 <Ronnie> Something is missing perhaps.
15:55:55 <LordAro> an actual 32 bit linux install?
15:56:12 <Ronnie> Maybe I should upgrade my whole system to the latest version of debian.
15:56:20 <dwfreed> what does 'uname -m' output
15:56:50 <dwfreed> or 'dpkg --print-architecture'
15:56:57 <Ronnie> pjb@laptop:~/2023/download/openttd-13.3-linux-generic-amd64$ uname -m i686
15:57:06 <dwfreed> yeah, you're on 32 bit
15:57:11 <dwfreed> so amd64 is not going to work
15:57:15 <LordAro> you may find updating to latest version of debian tricky
15:57:31 <LordAro> how about `lscpu | grep Model` ?
15:57:46 <LordAro> (or, what CPU do you have?)
15:57:59 <Ronnie> $ lscpu | grep Model Model: 58 Model name: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-3320M CPU @ 2.60GHz
15:58:30 <LordAro> ok, very 64-bit capable
15:58:50 <LordAro> but it would require a full reinstall
15:59:09 <Ronnie> dpkg --print-architecture i386
15:59:19 <LordAro> however, to answer your original question, you'd indeed have to compile it yourself, and those instructions are very out of date
15:59:25 <dwfreed> LordAro: I mean, it doesn't, but it's not an operation for the faint of heart :)
15:59:55 <LordAro> dwfreed: it might as well require a full reinstall * :p
15:59:55 <Ronnie> So I think that means I'm running in 32 bit mode on a 64 bit machine.
16:00:21 <Ronnie> Oh well, maybe I should do my system upgrade first.
16:00:40 <Ronnie> Then I'll try the openttd install again.
16:00:44 <LordAro> it's still very possible to compile OTTD in 32-bit
16:00:58 <Ronnie> I could try installing on my other computer, which is amd.
16:01:25 <LordAro> `cmake -B build && cmake --build build` is the very simple answer
16:01:48 <LordAro> the first command will error until you've installed all the necessary prerequisites
16:02:25 <Ronnie> Indeed, I just got an error.
16:02:38 <LordAro> is it "cmake: Command not found" ? :D
16:02:39 <Ronnie> CMake Error: The source directory "/home/pjb/2023/download/openttd-13.3-linux-generic-amd64" does not appear to contain CMakeLists.txt.
16:03:02 <Ronnie> Maybe i should change directory.
16:03:02 <LordAro> well for starters you'll need the source code, not the compiled binary
16:03:14 <LordAro> maybe i should've specified
16:05:22 <LordAro> btw, "amd64" is the name of a 64-bit processor architecture, it has no relevance to who made your CPU
16:05:26 <LordAro> well, not since ~2002
16:05:54 <LordAro> That is, every Intel CPU since then has been "amd64"
16:06:33 <dwfreed> it's because amd came up with it first
16:06:36 <LordAro> Programmers have never been good at naming things
16:07:24 <LordAro> (and I'm not going to go into ARM, which is its own thing entirely)
16:08:42 <Ronnie> Well, I've got a raspberry pi.
16:08:52 <Ronnie> But I think I'll leave that alone.
16:09:32 <Ronnie> What I'll do then is install the latest version of debian and then try getting openttd to run from that.
16:09:33 <dwfreed> LordAro: Prescott 2M (first mainstream EM64T) was not released until February 2005
16:09:56 <LordAro> dwfreed: i'm thinking of the Athlon x2, aren't i?
16:10:18 <dwfreed> AMD beat Intel to the 64 bit mainstream by a few years, iirc
16:10:58 <dwfreed> Athlon 64 was released September 2003
16:11:52 <dwfreed> Athlon X2 (first post-64 to drop the 64) was released October 2007
16:12:16 <LordAro> on the other hand maybe i just don't know what i'm talking about
16:12:47 <dwfreed> Core 2 was released July 2006
16:13:02 <Ronnie> Well, thanks for your help. I'll get in touch again if I get stuck.
16:14:12 <dwfreed> LordAro: I have a system at my parents house that is one of the last 32 bit Prescott P4s; thing runs *hot*
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17:02:26 <pickpacket> Ronnie: I run debian bookworm on 32 bit intel. I have it compiled if you want it 🙂
17:02:58 <_glx_> LordAro: actually `cmake -B build -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Release` might be better 🙂
17:35:30 <talltyler> GitHub awarded me a Quickdraw profile badge for closing a PR within 5 minutes of it being opened. It was my own PR. Maybe that shouldn't count. 😛
17:49:05 <truebrain> talltyler: CHEATS! 😄
17:49:08 <truebrain> what a lovely bug 🙂
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18:45:57 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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19:31:03 <peter1138> Christ, £6.25 for a pint
19:48:52 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: how much is that compared to oktoberfest?
19:50:54 <_jgr_> I was in London last weekend and paid £7.85 for one of my pints 😛
19:51:00 <pickpacket> Eddi|zuHause: a pint is nothing compared to oktoberfest. Most people have many pints during that
19:51:57 <Eddi|zuHause> my brain expects "pint" to be "about 0,5l"... but that's probably off
19:52:26 <Heiki> try any Finnish summer festival, 8 € for 0.33 l
19:54:15 <peter1138> Should be 568ml, so not far off 0.5l
19:54:35 <debdog> pint <p, pt> [Am.] [16 US fl oz] --> [0,473 l]
19:54:39 <debdog> pint <p, pt> [Br.] [20 imperial fl oz] --> [0,568 l]
19:55:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i was expecting more of the american than the british one then.
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20:17:29 <pickpacket> Wait what? There two *different* imperial measurement systems??
20:18:18 <pickpacket> I mean I know the size of a pint differs between states in Australia but I thought that was just Aussies being weird
20:25:36 <Eddi|zuHause> pickpacket: you should have seen the old german system. practically any of the 200 individual states had their own system
20:29:26 <debdog> germany was very modern even back then – diversity
20:33:58 <truebrain> that is an interesting take on that 😛
20:51:30 <Eddi|zuHause> in a way that was actually true, in the german and italian states the varous courts each had their own artists which pushed the culture massively, compared to the more centralised western states
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22:23:20 <keseliman> Guys is there an easy train drawing software tool etc to draw trains ?
22:23:31 <keseliman> if not easy a tutorial maybe
22:24:09 <keseliman> i have tried to draw a wagon it seems okay but have no idea how to draw the locomotives
22:27:35 <kamnet> No there's no tool that will draw them for you (at least not until AI gets trained on it). Locomotives are pretty much the same as wagons. You just have to practice, get feedback onit and fix what doesn't look right. It's definitely an art and a skill to learn.
22:29:02 <keseliman> I have seen someone put much more detail I am definitely missing something mine doesn't look good xd
23:00:17 <talltyler> Should’ve renamed the PR before pushing, it’s now `Feature: Setting to automatically restart dedicate server based on hours played` 🙂
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23:04:00 <talltyler> Right, now description is edited to suit the new approach
23:28:03 <kamnet> keseliman: Yep, it's all about learning the skill. There's not a tool out there that just makes cool stuff. It requires you to hve an eye for detail and to learn how to work within the limitations of the game.
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