IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-04-03
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07:09:02 <petern> Should I split my vinyl album recordings into separate tracks?
07:18:42 <dwfreed> audacity can probably do it pretty easily
07:19:02 <dwfreed> or whatever the fork is
07:22:19 <andythenorth> I'd be surprised if there isn't an audio LLM somewhere
07:22:42 <andythenorth> there are only so many notes 😛
07:29:29 <petern> Looks like Tenacity and Audacium merged together and then that merged into Saucedacity, but kept the name Tenacity. Forks eh?
07:34:47 <andythenorth> which one is the LLM? 😛
07:55:00 <petern> I'm not interesting in large language models.
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09:44:02 <Kuhnovic> Did everyone ever start on a clang-format file? I think we can really benefit from one, and I think it's best to develop it collectively. What's the best way to develop such a thing, github discussions?
09:52:17 <LordAro> Kuhnovic: several people have started, it doesn't generally get very far
09:52:28 <LordAro> OTTD's code is too weird for an auto formatter
09:52:42 <LordAro> all of the UI blocks, for instance
10:00:20 <Kuhnovic> Hmm, you have a point. And creating exceptions for all those case would be quite a pain...
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11:22:53 <andythenorth> Planes also petern ?
11:23:22 <AJ[d]> It looked so natural I didn't even question it :Hmmm:
11:23:35 <LordAro> i'm still not entirely sure what's different
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11:25:57 <TallTyler> Knots speed unit, I think
11:35:26 <petern> Hmm, do we have settings conversion?
11:36:08 <petern> I don't want to change the order of options, just make it default to the land speed units instead of being fixed.
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12:37:22 <petern> I mean, I wrote it and it works, so...
12:46:42 <TallTyler> Can land vehicles select Knots? (I can answer that myself once the preview build finishes 🙂 )
13:07:46 <Eddi|zuHause> aren't sea/air knots different units?
13:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> just asking, because there's like 200 different "miles" they could be based on
13:15:07 <Orang> a knot is 1 nautical mile per 1 hour
13:17:23 <Orang> irrespective of what fluid the vessel is in
13:19:41 <Brickblock1> 1 nautical mile can be different tho
13:22:41 <EmperorJake> A nautical mile is based on degrees of latitude so it's actually a well-defined and useful unit
13:23:27 <Eddi|zuHause> unless the earth grows or shrinks :p
13:23:50 <blathijs> IMHO it's the only mile that's worth keeping around ;-p
13:26:14 <TallTyler> It's odd that land vehicles can use knots as their speed
13:26:40 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe they're hovercraft? :p
13:26:58 <Brickblock1> I don't think it is a problem using si is also weird most of the time
13:28:47 <Eddi|zuHause> all unit switches are weird, because the people haven't grown up with it. this is why it's so hard to switch from imperial to metric, or from farenheit to celsus, or whatever
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13:31:43 <andythenorth> Do hovercraft have an altimeter?
13:37:40 <petern> TallTyler: Yes, it can be prevented by removing the limit change to the setting, but as units are pretty arbitrary I didn't see the point of not allowing it.
13:37:59 <TallTyler> I'm not opposed to it, it just seemed odd 🙂
13:38:51 <petern> Plenty of things are dd 🙂
13:45:04 <TrueBrain> I am odd too! Does that count?
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13:48:22 <pickpacket> I want my tax refund
13:49:06 <pickpacket> Planning to put £100 toward the OpenTTD project
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14:05:10 <Orang> my train goes at 65 knots
14:08:08 <Fairy> we need a pixels/tick speed measurement, clearly the best option
14:08:34 <TallTyler> Does it increase if you use an extrazoom base set?
14:08:55 <Fairy> "My train has a higher resolution so it goes faster"
14:15:23 <JGR> There already is a tiles/day unit, anecdotally it doesn't seem very popular
14:18:33 <petern> I only found out about it because I added knots...
14:19:01 <TallTyler> I found it when changing it to support tiles/sec in realtime mode
14:19:24 <TallTyler> It sounds best for maximum optimization networks
14:19:39 <emilyd[m]> tiles/day makes more sense in my opinion
14:21:20 <petern> Not when daylength changes 🙂
14:22:12 <TallTyler> It's all optional in my current iteration, so people are free to keep using days/months/years, etc
14:22:31 <TallTyler> But if you want to change the rate of calendar progression, you have to use real-time units
14:23:21 <TallTyler> JGR: How does increasing the interval between industry production ticks affect FIRS and its derivatives?
14:23:35 <Brickblock1> TallTyler: I would prefer not to
14:23:50 <TallTyler> I can see how it would be better for industries which stockpile boost supplies, but the calendar-based system is a bit opaque
14:24:01 <petern> I assume that means "you can't use calendar-based time units" rather than having to use real time.
14:24:34 <petern> I suppose mph and km/h are kinda real time, but... heh
14:24:50 <TallTyler> Not sure what distinction you're making, to be honest
14:25:12 <Brickblock1> petern: so is m/s
14:25:58 <petern> Yes, but I forgot to add that.
14:26:01 <TallTyler> The current implementation runs the economy at the same rate no matter the calendar scaling, so the only way to describe the economy in calendar terms is to keep the two perfectly in sync
14:27:55 <petern> TallTyler: the context was someone prefers tiles/day, which changes to tiles/sec, and then "you have to use real-time units" -- in this case it could be understood that tiles/sec is the only real time unit, and none of the others are usable.
14:28:26 <petern> So not making any distinction, just clarifying 🙂
14:28:38 <Brickblock1> I don't think there would be huge problems having them decoupled, cities skylines practically has two different speeds, one for simulation and one for date
14:29:03 <TallTyler> Oh yeah, thanks for that 🙂
14:29:28 <petern> I.. just made a cup of tea. And left it in the kitchen...
14:29:39 <TallTyler> Right, you can't use "tiles/day" because that's calendar based, it would be "tiles/sec" instead, but all the other units (mph, kph, etc) are still available
14:44:04 <Eddi|zuHause> <TallTyler> JGR: How does increasing the interval between industry production ticks affect FIRS and its derivatives? <-- there once was a huge discussion about ECS vectors and daylength being incompatible, because ECS counted ticks in some way
14:45:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it was a long time ago, and i don't know which version of daylength was affected
14:47:04 <JGR> The frequency adjustments that I'm doing are about the production scaling setting, not day length
14:47:38 <JGR> So it's more economy scaling than calendar scaling
14:48:06 <TallTyler> Right, that's my next project -- I'm working on PRing it at the same time as my calendar progress speed proposal, so I can cover both use cases for the traditional daylength implementation
14:48:18 <Eddi|zuHause> daylength is just a special case of scaling
14:52:05 <JGR> It's the frequency of CBM_IND_PRODUCTION_256_TICKS which is adjusted
14:52:33 <JGR> Depending on the selected scaling it may be more or less frequent than 256 ticks
14:52:46 <TallTyler> Yeah, I'm looking at your commits for it 🙂
14:54:20 <TallTyler> I see why this frequency should be adjusted for callback-based industries which use stockpiles, so they'll consume less often
14:55:56 <TallTyler> I'm just curious how it affects FIRS-derived industry sets that look for a delivery within the last calendar month and track that in a permanent register rather than a stockpile. Can less frequent production ticks screw up its status check, and stay in the wrong production state for too long, for example?
14:57:46 <TallTyler> In my NoDaylength implementation, production stats are still tracked per minute (vanilla month length) so if my math is right, I can't go above 4x the current frequency, or not every month will get a production tick at all
14:57:47 <petern> That should just be "last economy month"
14:58:36 <petern> The only stats are "current month" and "last month" right? Whether that's calendar or economy is up to you 🙂
15:00:04 <TallTyler> I haven't looked at FIRS code in a long time, but if I recall correctly I think it look directly at the date. Maybe we should ask andythenorth 😛
15:02:14 <petern> Seems to suggest "27 production cycles"
15:04:23 <TallTyler> I think I last looked at generated NML code from FIRS 1 or something, that someone on the forum sent me
15:07:42 <pickpacket> Tax return within a week! Wohoo!
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16:35:41 <andythenorth> seems I left detailed notes to myself there 😛
16:40:54 <andythenorth> so FIRS would have incorrect text if the economy speed was changed relative to displayed dates
16:41:04 <andythenorth> [stuff and things]
16:49:40 <petern> If it says "months" yes, but... not a big drama.
16:50:13 <petern> It would be a larger issue if it went by calendar date, which would mean that daylength change affects how it works.
16:51:00 <andythenorth> in principle we could have some text formatter that can scale time units 😛
16:51:13 <andythenorth> give it X ticks or cycles or something
16:52:03 <TallTyler> We'll probably need to give NewGRF authors access to the the new string codes I created
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16:53:16 <TallTyler> There are some automatic unit selectors with unit conversion, like `{UNITS_DAYS_OR_SECONDS}`, as well as a custom replacer `{RTS "value in calendar time" "value in real time"}`, typically used like `{RTS months minutes}`
16:54:00 <TallTyler> Economy scaling is problematic because of rounding down to zero
16:54:40 <TallTyler> Zero house production means small towns often produce nothing at low scales, while if I use a minimum of 1 it doesn't get scaled down enough
16:54:57 <TallTyler> It'll be a similar issue with costs, I think
16:55:20 <petern> Ideally it would just be one value, requiring NewGRF to provide both calendar or real time means they need to know too much, I think.
17:09:33 <andythenorth> so....station overbuilding
17:09:36 <andythenorth> is that a config setting?
17:09:40 <andythenorth> I can't see one for it
17:10:08 <TallTyler> Is it not working for you?
17:11:04 <andythenorth> I can't see any recent PRs touching this, so I assume it's user error
17:11:28 <TallTyler> It works for me on current master, so might be you? Or NewGRF somehow?
17:12:00 <andythenorth> works in 13.0 official build
17:12:11 <TallTyler> Actually, I get the error if the tile already exists in the right direction
17:14:50 <TallTyler> Yeah, something must have changed, I can't overbuild in the same direction either
17:21:53 <andythenorth> our environment isn't very amenable to automated regression testing
17:22:42 <JGR> This change was deliberate in the PR, it wasn't accidental
17:24:38 <andythenorth> reviewing is hard
17:24:47 <andythenorth> so many corners to think around
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17:54:32 <FLHerne> that seems like a bad change
17:56:15 <FLHerne> overbuilding station tiles is a *very* common action for 'diorama' players
17:56:19 <TrueBrain> Playwright for OpenTTD when andythenorth ? 🙂
17:56:35 <FLHerne> also, why make it hard to do something that's now free
18:06:00 <andythenorth> is Playwright the new Selenium?
18:06:58 <TrueBrain> has been for ... counts on fingers .. many years now
18:08:05 <andythenorth> can it click on things in WASM? 😛
18:08:13 <andythenorth> without needing exact screen coords? 😛
18:08:23 <andythenorth> hmm don't we have a regressions AI?
18:16:53 <andythenorth> oops, pushed a tag, but not the related commits
18:17:00 <andythenorth> auto-deploy failed 😛
18:18:36 <TrueBrain> how do you push a tag without the commits? That is ... weird, at least, in git-talk 😛
18:18:46 <TrueBrain> you tag a commit, and push that ... so weird 😛
18:23:38 <andythenorth> what happens when the rule is to push tags explicitly? e.g. `git push origin 10.10.5`
18:24:11 <andythenorth> bu the previous few commits aren't pushed
18:25:01 <andythenorth> genuine question, as that's what I did, and auto-deploy didn't work, and that seems the most likely explanation 🙂
18:38:23 <TrueBrain> a tag is always attached to a commit; and a commit has a parent
18:38:29 <TrueBrain> so if you push a tag, you also push the commit it tags
18:38:33 <TrueBrain> and its parent, and the parent of the parent, etc
18:39:03 <TrueBrain> but who knows what your setup looks like, so meh 😛
18:40:51 <andythenorth> I have never encountered this failure mode before 😛
18:40:58 <andythenorth> but pushing the commits fixed the issue
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18:49:36 <andythenorth> now what shall we do? 😛
18:50:34 <TrueBrain> same thing as we do every night pinky!
19:01:53 <petern> Sit here wondering what to do...
19:04:14 <TallTyler> If you're bored you could test/review #10519 😉
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21:41:50 <petern> Already watched that one 🙂
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