IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-03-21
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03:44:26 <EmperorJake> Could we add a flag to the NRT spec that allows a roadtype to control road decorations like streetlights and trees? It seems those can only be controlled by town zones at the moment. I'd like a roadtype to be able to choose between: trees, streetlights, blank, and default (town zone based)
03:45:32 <EmperorJake> For example, the Dutch Road Furniture set replaces the trees and streetlights with blank sprites to make motorways look better, but it results in city streets being quite bare.
03:47:02 <EmperorJake> With the addition of this simple flag you could define city streets as having streetlights, suburban streets with trees, and highways to remain blank even if they pass through a town zone with trees or lights.
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06:35:27 <dP>
06:35:27 <dP> I solved firs xD
06:57:20 <andythenorth> make a web page for it 😛
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11:02:25 <petern> EmperorJake: Yea probably. I'll have a PR later.
11:06:23 <EmperorJake> Thanks 🙂 It would be even better if roadtypes could define custom sprites for the decorations too (so that people don't have to abuse the catenary feature) but I'd be happy with just the base ones for now
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11:35:59 <petern> Yes, but that's effectively a different feature, even though it's related.
11:51:03 <TallTyler> Ooh I like those ideas very much
11:57:24 <petern> Reusing the base ones may be preferable for consistency, of course.
11:59:08 <EmperorJake> Better compatibility too, since GRFs can replace the base sprites
11:59:43 <EmperorJake>
11:59:43 <EmperorJake> I just made these for the eventual JP+ Roads
12:00:22 <petern> I can't remember, can road types override pavement sprites?
12:00:51 <petern> (per roadtype)
12:05:40 <EmperorJake> I'm not sure but I don't think so
12:08:20 <petern> Ah, perhaps the game draws the original ground sprite and then overlays the custom road sprite.
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12:10:48 <TallTyler> Yes, that’s the case. There’s a farm road in U&Ratt that has two lanes and a gap in the center, and the base game road sprite shows through the in centre townzone, in addition to showing sidewalks on the edges.
12:13:20 <petern> So it's possible the decorations flag should also allow default/grass/paved.
12:14:20 <EmperorJake> That would be really nice, preventing sidewalks on dirt tracks
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12:59:04 <andythenorth> was it lunch?
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12:59:24 <ag> Lunch indeed
12:59:25 <andythenorth> also when are we doing 'ground tile painter'?
12:59:37 <andythenorth> how many bits do we have for that?
12:59:48 <andythenorth> needs to work with everything
13:00:10 <andythenorth> road, rail, industry, house, airport, object etc
13:00:31 <andythenorth> extend the map array?
13:00:33 <ag> Where underground railways
13:00:37 <andythenorth> never
13:00:43 <ag> Sad!
13:06:27 <andythenorth> petern: salad?
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14:10:01 <garlic_bread42>
14:10:01 <garlic_bread42> quick question since people complain about "grf not working"... is this the right way for the versions?
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14:11:18 <JGR> Unless you're doing something special for my branch, you don't need to specify a JGRPP version
14:11:36 <garlic_bread42> it contains variants.
14:12:02 <glx[d]> Vanilla should be enough for that
14:12:07 <JGR> Variants won't work on 13.0 though?
14:13:29 <JGR> Actually, it's in the release, that's fine
14:13:29 <glx[d]> Variants are in 13.0
14:13:55 <garlic_bread42> thanks for your help then :)
14:25:47 <petern> andythenorth: I had a chicken tikka wrap
14:26:19 <andythenorth> scrambled eggs on toast
14:27:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i had mashed potatos and some chicken things
14:27:11 <petern> So default/grass/paved is probably a different attribute alongside default/none/trees/streetlights. Although internally they're all roadside types.
14:28:20 <petern> I.e. you may want to force one differently than the other.
14:28:52 <andythenorth> NotRoadSideTypes
14:28:54 <andythenorth> NotFences
14:29:05 <andythenorth> ButNotGroundTypes
14:29:20 <Eddi|zuHause> while at it, add snow levels :)
14:29:37 <andythenorth> SchnowTypes
14:29:58 <petern> I'm currently only considering how the roadsidetype is set.
14:30:03 <pickpacket> ShowMustGoOnTypes
14:33:16 <pickpacket> City growth stagnates as it gets closer to 300k pop. I grew a city from 2k to 220k in 30 years. 20 years later it was around 280k, and now another 20 years down the line and it’s been bouncing between 296k and 298k for a few years. Is there a timeout or a maximum distance the growth tick agent will walk before giving up on finding a new place to
14:33:16 <pickpacket> build?
14:38:43 <dP> pickpacket: <>
14:38:53 <dP> you need good road layout to grow past 300k
14:39:34 <pickpacket> Oh I have good road layout alright 😄 been working on the roads non stop for 50 years
14:40:06 <dP> is it spiral? ;)
14:40:16 <FLHerne> "good" from the perspective of town growth is nonsensical for any other purpose
14:40:30 <dP> what you consider good layout isn't necessarily what town growth does :P
14:41:59 <pickpacket> Hmmm. I didn’t realise I hade to match the frid size
14:42:10 <pickpacket> what counts as ”better roads”?
14:42:26 <pickpacket> s/frid/grid
14:43:17 <dP> initial layout doesn't matter that much, you just need more spiraling roads
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14:45:10 <FLHerne> is the ideal road layout
14:45:22 <FLHerne> but not for getting anywhere in a hurry
14:46:02 <FLHerne> no ends, no junctions, absolute minimum of corners that can become unbuildable
14:46:13 <FLHerne> actually, wasn't the last one fixed somewhat recently?
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15:17:53 <pickpacket> whaaaa..?
15:18:00 <pickpacket> why spiraling?
15:19:06 <JGR> Maximises the ratio of house to road tiles
15:19:11 <pickpacket> oh
15:19:27 <JGR> Pretty useless for actually serving any of the houses with road vehicles though
15:19:35 <pickpacket> <-- My goal is "as big as possible in 2050"
15:19:51 <pickpacket> also it's just fun having buses with no orders cruising around
15:20:07 <pickpacket> 605 buses and counting
15:21:19 <pickpacket> I'm pretty much spending my time removing dead ends and building new roads
15:22:27 <pickpacket> honestly getting pretty tedious
15:22:42 <JGR> Having buses running around like that creates huge numbers of pointless link graph links
15:22:53 <pickpacket> and not rewarding at all when growth stagnates :P
15:22:57 <JGR> Even when the distribution is set to manual
15:23:03 <pickpacket> JGR: does that affect town growth?
15:24:30 <JGR> No, mainly minor performance issues
15:24:44 <JGR> Though it's pathologically bad if you do turn cargodist on
15:26:23 <pickpacket> cargodist?
15:26:55 <pickpacket> oh, no I know what you mean
15:27:02 <pickpacket> yeah... that'd be... uhm...
15:28:34 <pickpacket>
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16:25:31 <pickpacket> feels like I've spammed you all to death :D Anyway, new topic: It's about time I start a dedicated server. How do I do that behind NAT and get it to show up in the server list?
16:26:00 <pickpacket> starting one in the game is easy enough. What would be the equivalent cli arguments?
16:32:05 <glx[d]> You just start it and it should work
16:32:27 <glx[d]> `openttd -D`
16:32:41 <pickpacket> The -D flag wants an IP and port, doesn't it?
16:33:28 <glx[d]> No
17:08:16 <petern> Hmm, I can't fit bit default/grass/paved and default/none/trees/streetlights into the 8 bit flags 😦
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17:10:20 <petern> *both
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17:22:14 <pickpacket> glx[d]: does it automatically start a new game when it's reached 2050?
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17:37:35 <pickpacket> I compiled 13.0 on my RPi but it won't start without having a GFX pack :( I *should* be able to start and *then* download one, shouldn't I?
17:42:05 <pickpacket> a window blinks into existence for the briefest time and then disappears again
17:44:01 <petern> There's a bootstrap that should run, but there are preconditions for that.
17:44:29 <petern> I think it needs to be built with freetype.
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17:50:02 <pickpacket> it was
17:50:48 <pickpacket> I'll just recompile. In case I messed something up
17:59:25 <pickpacket> I didn't have the libfontconfig dev package installed. I guess that could be it
18:02:11 <petern> Possibly.
18:02:47 <petern> There should at least be an error but perhaps you didn't run it from a terminal
18:06:09 <pickpacket> I did, and the error said that I need a graphics set
18:34:37 <petern> Yup.
18:42:44 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
18:42:45 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:59:14 <andythenorth> how many bits would we need in the map array for some groundtype thing?
18:59:54 <andythenorth> it's a single ID, pointing to some grf structure, doesn't need anything else, no direction bits, no magic, no special counters for animation or anything?
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19:20:03 <Kuhnovic> pickpacket: I ran into this issue on windows at some point with a local build. I looked at a working installation of openttd that had openGFX, and copied the baseset folder into the local build. Worked like a charm. Maybe you can do something similar on linux to get it to working.
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20:31:31 <pickpacket> Kuhnovic: good tip. I’ll do that if it doesn’t work after this compile (off to bed now so I’ll test it tomorrow)
20:43:24 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] frosch123 merged pull request #132: Change: migrate OpenTTD user hpfx to GitHub user primer97
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21:19:43 <dP> hm, limiting firs to one secondary per town makes it a lot more arduous to collect boosts...
21:20:55 <dP> not sure whether I need to generate more industries or to figure out a better strategy
21:20:58 <dP> probably both xD
21:22:22 <dP> also better ui :p
21:23:03 <andythenorth> dunno 🙂
21:23:12 <andythenorth> FIRS Steeltown is deeply deeply flawed
21:23:26 <andythenorth> but it takes 100 years of gameplay to learn why, and that's the main entertainment
21:24:00 <dP> why?
21:25:03 <petern> Hmm, instead of using road type flags I could add another property. Would not be compatible with 13.0 then though.
21:25:21 <andythenorth> we need to release more often anyway 😛
21:25:34 <andythenorth> dP: I don't want to give you spoilers 😛
21:25:39 <petern> I guess there's always callbacks...
21:25:40 <andythenorth> play it and tell me at the end 😛
21:25:49 <andythenorth> there always are callbacks
21:25:59 <dP> I'm not gonna play it for more than 20 years anyway :P
21:26:32 <dP> and what you consider to be flawed may not even be relevant for competitive xD
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21:27:34 <andythenorth> the goal is just generate X amount of vehicles?
21:28:08 <dP> deliver the largest amount of vehicles in x years
21:28:10 <dP> x = 15 rn
21:28:31 <andythenorth> yeah, it will work quite well for that
21:28:50 <andythenorth> and it's quite challenging, all the WTF production amounts in the chain
21:29:01 <dP> my main issue rn is that I spend way to much time navigating ui
21:29:25 <andythenorth> industry chains view?
21:29:31 <andythenorth> minimap?
21:29:42 <dP> chians, map, depots, orders...
21:30:15 <dP> chains can be learned eventually I suppose
21:30:30 <dP> or kept on a second monitor if I had one...
21:31:57 <dP> depot is the most annoying, all I want is 1 engine type and 1 wagon type
21:32:12 <dP> but get all the horses and annoying cargo selector
21:36:31 <andythenorth> NUTS
21:37:07 <dP> yeah, nuts is slightly better for that
21:37:19 <petern> Hmm, maybe I could use 3 bits of remaining road type flags, but...
21:37:20 <dP> still ui isn't really made for refits
21:37:32 <petern> Maybe I should check if JGRPP changes anything.
21:37:53 <dP> for vanilla cargoes I made nuts without refits
21:38:06 <dP> but steeltown has way too many cargoes for that
21:38:24 <petern> Ah it adds extra flags
21:38:25 <dP> need some kind of cargo matrix selecter
21:38:45 <dP> or cargo auto-detection
21:39:28 <dP> though auto-detection probably be useless in steeltown either as everything produces shitton of stuff that all goes to different place
21:40:31 <dP> I'm half-tempted to just connect everything into one big loop and send trains with refit to available + unload if accepted xD
21:40:51 <andythenorth> we should have flags for flags
21:40:57 <andythenorth> "how many flags will you be needing"
21:41:01 <andythenorth> NotFlags
21:41:20 <dP> flags to ignore flags
21:46:43 <JGR> Constantly needing more flags, and the difficulty in adding more properties to the spec is why I made the flags property for road stops 32 bits
21:47:35 <JGR> There's no real nee dot be stingy in property field sizes
21:49:06 <dP> oh, yeah, kinda of an issue with firs is that until you boost everything to the max there is so little stuff produced that it takes trains too long to load and they miss three month window
21:49:28 <dP> so it produces nothing until you connect all the stuff and it just explodes
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21:51:58 <andythenorth> BOOM
21:52:09 <andythenorth> and then some of your routes are overloaded
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21:59:54 <andythenorth> Horse 98% complete
21:59:58 <andythenorth> 13 engines to draw
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22:12:32 <petern> Same with the extra flags I added for variants.
22:12:44 <petern> But can't change what's already there.
22:29:08 <dP> andythenorth: well, you can kinda build it big enough from the start
22:29:42 <dP> though unfortunately in openttd all the options that can deliver steadily and scale well kinda suck
22:33:52 <dP> guess will try blimps next time 🤣
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