IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-03-20
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00:00:16 <JGR> The high griefing potential is why buying more than one tile at once is off by default in my branch
00:10:43 <dP> TallTyler: why not just copy jgrpp daylength? most players seem to be pretty happy with it
00:11:27 <JGR> There are some rough edges
00:12:14 <JGR> It would probably look different if I was starting from a green field now
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02:58:48 <kamnet> TallTyler: "As of today, your project is slightly but still dominated by negative ratings" is it?
03:07:27 <kamnet> 368 negative reviews out of over 9000 reviews on steam. And most of the negative reviews are about not liking the graphics or a lack of a tutorial on start-up.
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07:29:38 <andythenorth> Zorg has voted twice, as they feel so strongly about it
07:29:54 <andythenorth> 2 upvotes, 4 downvotes (including 2 from Zorg)
07:48:42 <petern> Let's just do daylength by increasing tick length. Nothing in gameplay changes, so it'll be perfect. Added bonus if moving the mouse and windows around is also affected. Can't see any downside.
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08:28:29 <andythenorth> I wonder what the worst possible way to do it is
08:30:47 <petern> Probably to take the original one and not fix any of its issues...
08:31:06 <andythenorth> hmm GPT is down, I am a bit lost 😛
08:31:11 <andythenorth> where's my new friend gone?
08:31:39 <andythenorth> I was using it to suggest vehicle names 😛
08:31:53 <andythenorth> daylength, but we just scale vehicle intro dates
08:32:08 <andythenorth> and change the clock to "Days since game start", like every other proper sandbox game
08:32:30 <petern> Which proper sandbox games do that?
08:32:40 <andythenorth> I made up the last part
08:32:44 <andythenorth> I don't play other games
08:34:24 <andythenorth> but the major problem of daylength is that people want more time to build routes before a class 47 appears in game?
08:34:43 <andythenorth> and if the class 47 appears in say....2010, the foamers get exercised and take to the forums?
08:34:49 <andythenorth> filing bug reports against us
09:20:51 <andythenorth> goes it daylength just in Iron Horse and be done with it?
09:37:32 <dP> does daylength make trains longer?
09:48:40 <petern> andythenorth: No, that's silly.
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10:52:45 <andythenorth> might be elevenses
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11:14:35 <petern> I don't think it's enough to just upstream the documentation...
11:33:32 <dP> well, if you upstream documentation ppl can file bugs it doesn't work 😜
12:18:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i finally found a tool that i needed for ages... "systemd-run" with the "MemoryHigh" option... it'll focus swapping on that one excessively large process and leave the other processes alone, making the system more responsive
12:21:10 <petern> Did you upgrade your 12 year old system yet? Having more RAM helps too 😉
12:24:54 <Eddi|zuHause> well, technically, yes, i did get more RAM like 8 years ago :p
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12:28:30 <andythenorth> dP: I think that this probably actually works
12:28:57 <andythenorth> shall we crowdfund Eddi some RAM?
12:29:02 <andythenorth> how much is normal these days?
12:29:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i did look into getting some more RAM a few years ago, but turned out that RAM for such old systems gets excessively expensive
12:30:07 <petern> Lunch was done. What's next?
12:30:25 <Eddi|zuHause> there's always a next lunch
12:34:25 <andythenorth> I'd ask GPT, but it's down
12:35:46 <dP> Eddi|zuHause: are you looking for used stuff? usually there are plenty of people happy to get any money for their old junk
12:36:53 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i'll be getting something new. i just don't know when
12:49:49 <TallTyler> andythenorth: Clearly didn’t read the part where I said I was rewriting it to make real-time optional but that’s fine
12:50:20 <TallTyler> I can get more panicked complaints the next time around too
12:51:05 <petern> But on the other hand, I'm not panicked about it.
12:51:07 <TallTyler> Peter I’ll have to think more about your suggestion, but the current strategy is to just sync economy and calendar time unless real-time units are used
12:51:37 <TallTyler> If they’re always in sync it doesn’t matter that they’re secretly two different variables
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13:21:43 <andythenorth> I wonder how far we could get with "just lie to grfs about intro dates" 😛
13:21:52 <andythenorth> maybe I should write a GS
13:23:00 <andythenorth> And a patch that optionally inserts the string "Year " in front of the year for every instance of date formatting
13:23:09 <andythenorth> then start the game at year 0
13:24:00 <andythenorth> GS can read all the vehicle intro dates probably
13:26:06 <andythenorth> and DisableForCompany()
13:26:16 <andythenorth> and EnableForCompany()
13:43:11 <TallTyler> That sounds like one of the worst abuses of GRF/GS spec I’ve heard, and I’ve done some pretty terrible things 😛
13:43:29 <andythenorth> I might try extending the spec in a patch or something
13:43:44 <andythenorth> I'll probably instantly find I don't understand something 😛
13:44:11 <andythenorth> seems like a natural fit for script TBH
13:44:33 <JGR> More likely involving scripts at all just makes your job 10x harder
13:45:15 <andythenorth> dunno....content often wins out
13:45:27 <Eddi|zuHause> after playing transport fever 2 for a while, i find that just separating economy time and technology time works well enough
13:45:56 <andythenorth> how does TF2 reconcile things that are both?
13:46:11 <andythenorth> the servicing interval of a vehicle, or the reliability, for example
13:46:17 <andythenorth> are both economic and technological
13:46:24 <Eddi|zuHause> those are all moved to economy time
13:46:34 <andythenorth> ok, so vehicle instances live in the economy?
13:46:54 <andythenorth> but technology time manages the progression of types?
13:46:55 <Eddi|zuHause> so vehicles get "old" after 10 years instead of 40 years in x1/4 time
13:47:18 <andythenorth> how does it reconcile date display?
13:47:29 <andythenorth> so that foamers still get a class 47 around 1967
13:47:31 <Eddi|zuHause> date is always technology time
13:49:00 <Eddi|zuHause> plus, you get the option to just stop technology time
13:49:16 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can play eternally in the year 1927 or something
13:49:27 <Eddi|zuHause> while the economy just works normal
13:49:50 <andythenorth> how does that address the people who have scale concerns?
13:50:12 <andythenorth> e.g. they know how long a particular engine takes to go from Moscow to Vladivostock IRL, or London to Edinburgh
13:50:18 <andythenorth> and they want realistic travel times
13:50:34 <Eddi|zuHause> the times are "realistic" in the sense that 1m is actually always 1m
13:52:03 <Eddi|zuHause> so you could in theory make a realistic model of the transsib, if you manage to generate a large enough map :p
13:52:43 <Eddi|zuHause> but it doesn't solve any scale issues of how far should towns be apart
13:53:16 <JGR> The scale issues are fundamentally unsolvable
13:54:00 <JGR> Different bits of the game use totally different scales for both length and time
13:54:16 <JGR> You just have to suspend disbelief a little and play the game
13:54:17 <andythenorth> if I scale grf intro dates, do I also scale expire early, reliability decay etc?
13:54:59 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a thing that should be totally transparent to the GRF
13:55:50 <andythenorth> you mean, the grf shouldn't try and do that?
13:56:08 <andythenorth> but I'm going to try anyway
13:56:30 <andythenorth> maybe just scale everything
13:56:31 <Eddi|zuHause> like grfs should also not try mimicing driving backwards by flipping the graphics of the front engine and the DVT
13:56:44 <andythenorth> so if the engine lifetime is doubled by parameter, also scale retire early etc
13:56:51 <andythenorth> or maybe a parameter for each, because that ends well
13:57:50 <andythenorth> hmm maybe group all trains into variants by Epoch?
13:57:55 <andythenorth> like European HO does
13:58:50 <Eddi|zuHause> TF2 mods go kinda crazy on that sometimes, like having 40 variants of the same engine, and introduce a new one each time the logo gets changed
13:59:46 <Eddi|zuHause> and not all of them manage to group the variants into one buy menu entry :p
14:00:56 <andythenorth> limit of 32 or something
14:00:59 <andythenorth> I read the TF docs
14:01:10 <andythenorth> we seem to have converged on very similar spec and terms, different UI
14:10:42 <petern> So basically what "NoDL" does.
14:11:40 <petern> Program Compatibility Service Assistance hogging CPU again...
14:12:38 <andythenorth> hmm one grf can read parameter in another
14:12:48 <andythenorth> maybe I make NoDL.grf
14:12:59 <andythenorth> then adjust intro dates and vehicle life length
14:13:08 <andythenorth> nah it'll never work 🙂
14:14:39 <dP> having one newgrf with unified intro date params that scales other grfs that support it may not be that bad of an idea
14:15:56 <dP> though I guess it's simpler and better to just have each grf have it's own scaling paramms
14:18:11 <andythenorth> I mean...we could just expose a setting in the client 😛
14:18:48 <andythenorth> obvs not everyone has their own road / train / ship grf, so this idea might be of limited appeal
14:18:56 <andythenorth> also it's way to hard to modify grfs in place
14:19:06 <andythenorth> ideally grfs would be monkey patchable
14:19:16 <andythenorth> maybe GS could do that too
14:20:47 <dP> in my stuff I already moved past the point where scalable intro dates are useful
14:20:57 <dP> I just want to set exact intro dates and costs for each game mode
14:25:58 <Eddi|zuHause> <dP> having one newgrf with unified intro date params that scales other grfs that support it may not be that bad of an idea <-- there are two problems with that approach, 1) you need to know the vehicle IDs of every GRF in every past, present and future version of those GRFs. and 2) overriding the GRFs puts them back into one single address space, so you lose the ability to have two vehicle grfs loaded in parallel
14:28:16 <dP> Eddi|zuHause, it's the other way around, that grf just defines params, train sets read those params and scale their trains
14:28:49 <Eddi|zuHause> good luck getting people to agree on that standard :p
14:29:32 <dP> well, can always have 15 standards
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16:26:24 <KeepinItRail> What happens when for a house set, a construction_check fails, i.e. a building not allowed. Has the city lost its chance to place something that ‘turn’?
16:28:46 <KeepinItRail> So if I were to for some reason give all buildings a 10% random chance of the construction_check passing allowing to build, would that city therefore grow about a tenth the rate of a housing set which allows anything each time?
16:32:44 <KeepinItRail> Said another way, does strict construction_check logic slow the rate of city growth?
16:36:06 <Xarick> omg, it was at 2600 trains, and suddenly the railway engine goes out of existance, no more models for that railtype, it ended up selling them all, it's down to 900, I'm so sad i can't make it max out
16:36:56 <Xarick> on the other hand, seeing a real round 0 for total number of railway pieces assures me that removal of routes is working properly
16:37:44 <petern> Selling the engine because it's no longer made is... extreme.
16:37:57 <petern> I guess they might run out of spare parts?
16:38:38 <petern> Did I imagine that someone was working on CargoDest-like things...
16:57:41 <dP> KeepinItRail: no, it should still try to place other buildings on the same tile
16:57:53 <dP> so giving all houses 10% chance should be about the same as doing nothing
16:59:26 <dP> though if all buildings fail to build at the same time it would slow down growth a bit
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17:05:49 <andythenorth> petern: people were working on ideas for CargoDest-like things
17:05:54 <andythenorth> on top of cdist usually
17:06:00 <andythenorth> michi was one of them
17:13:34 <andythenorth> meh, I can't say "why not use GS?" for CargoDest 😦
17:13:40 <andythenorth> you have out-gamed my game
17:21:05 <TallTyler> petern: michi_cc[d] mentioned working on a CargoDest reboot maybe a month or two ago?
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18:45:09 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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19:11:59 <Wolf01> andythenorth how is going with GPT? Can it do GRFs now?
19:14:03 <andythenorth> I want to teach it to co-design grf though 😛
19:21:01 <Eddi|zuHause> dP: KeepinItRail: i vaguely remember some recent PR that "collects" failed house placement attempts and tries more aggressive the next time. but maybe i misinterpreted things
19:22:00 <Eddi|zuHause> petern: that was michi_cc, probably
19:26:37 <dP> I don't recall any PR like that
19:43:49 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i imagined things
20:00:36 <michi_cc[d]> I see my name suspiciously often in here, am I supposed to hide now? :p
20:16:55 <andythenorth> hmm 'build random variant from selected group' button? 😛
20:17:07 <andythenorth> or just 'do it in grf'? 😛
20:30:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's something you can easily do in GRF, doesn't need a special feature
20:30:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it probably doesn't make sense in most uses of variants
20:31:46 <andythenorth> 'random choice from 3'
20:31:54 <andythenorth> but yes, it could be done in grf trivially
20:35:40 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, i can't imagine myself using this for engines, but wagons maybe
20:42:23 <andythenorth> well it's auto-generated and quite trivial to include (or not)
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21:17:57 <Xarick> how do I reverse the order a path is built from the pathfinder?
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21:34:13 <Kuhnovic> For ships you can create a reverse path cache: ShipPathCache reverse_cache{ path_cache.rbegin(), path_cache.rend() };
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21:52:27 <dP> hm, firs vehicle goal is kinda fun
21:52:49 <dP> need to figure out how to make it less of a mess tho xD
21:56:39 <glx[d]> Kuhnovic: the question was for squirrel not c++ 🙂
21:57:05 <Kuhnovic> glx[d]: Oh oops, in that case... no idea 😉
21:58:23 <andythenorth> dP: is that Steeltown 4?
22:01:06 <andythenorth> Steeltown so evil
22:01:10 <andythenorth> such station density
22:01:35 <dP> it probable can be simplified greately
22:02:00 <dP> I was just playing by cargo chart xD
22:02:32 <dP> need to think of an actual strategy
22:02:57 <JGR> I'm sure you can get away with a lot fewer stations and less track
22:04:11 <dP> yeah, also I only noticed I can do refit at stations at the very end of the game xD
22:05:14 <dP> I was just doing separate stations for each cargo
22:07:25 <dP> also having so many industries kinda provokes it
22:07:39 <dP> should probably limit to like 1 secondary industry per town or smth
22:10:15 <dP> oh, also firs wrecks the game ui 😆
22:13:49 <andythenorth> GPT is back online
22:27:02 <andythenorth> incoming cargo is divided by 8, then multiplied by the sum of recently delivered cargos
22:27:19 <andythenorth> TL;DR just deliver all
22:27:32 <andythenorth> oof too late for eating
22:27:38 <andythenorth> now I want to eat
22:28:11 <dP> andythenorth: and output ratios just x/8 ?
22:28:53 <andythenorth> some players try to micro-optimise inputs
22:28:58 <andythenorth> they want them in the industry window
22:29:16 <andythenorth> so they can choose to win some micro-optimisation by only delivering like 2 out of 3 cargos or some such crap
22:29:27 <andythenorth> if it needs 3, deliver 3, or you get punished 😛
22:30:31 <andythenorth> petern: I am now eating A Orange
22:30:54 <dP> andythenorth: you mean ratios?
22:31:19 <dP> well, that's kinda useful to know
22:31:38 <dP> what chain is better to maximize production
22:32:20 <andythenorth> maybe I should put them in the registers so people can inspect with grf debug
22:32:55 <dP> I wouldn't mind just having them in the industry window
22:33:06 <andythenorth> TBH playing for production is probably better in ECS
22:33:13 <andythenorth> FIRS seems to cap out
22:33:16 <petern> Is your orange yellow?
22:33:24 <andythenorth> depends on colour perception
22:33:36 <andythenorth> my lights are quite yellow, so currently this orange is yellow
22:33:49 <andythenorth> it's still a orange though
22:33:57 <dP> well, doesn't cap out if the game only lasts a few hours :p
22:34:54 <andythenorth> I think maybe PIRS is better for that kind of play
22:34:59 <petern> Hmm, I think I'm meant to be in Oxford tomorrow. Maybe I should charge my laptop up...
22:35:13 <andythenorth> I have been to Oxford
22:35:17 <andythenorth> maybe as many as 3 times
22:35:30 <petern> That's a lifetime's worth.
22:40:56 <dP> andythenorth: hm, do I understand this right that if all cargoes are delivered production is 1:1 for any input?
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22:41:54 <andythenorth> there might be a few industries that are not 100% efficient, can't remember
22:42:12 <andythenorth> e.g. some might only be 6/8 or 7/8 even if all input types are supplied
22:42:41 <dP> well, I'm gonna check all ratios anyway so I'll find out I guess xD
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23:31:50 <dP> finally playing firs properly xD
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