IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-03-17
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01:28:53 <duck[d]> (pokes head in) I've been maintaining the /r/openttd container image for quite some time now (https://github.com/ropenttd/docker_openttd): is there appetite for building an official image (either in the main github repository, or, say, `openttd/container`)? It gets heavy enough use from server operators, plus we could tie builds into releases (right now I just build every day at 3am) - and indeed have PR / branch / nightly builds to aid
01:33:19 <FLHerne> fwiw, this channel tends to be pretty dead at night Europe time, almost all the devs are in ~that timezone
01:34:44 <duck[d]> Possibly, I'm about to head to bed myself anyhow - might write a proposal up for discussions in the morning if this doesn't get picked up on come morning
01:34:44 <FLHerne> seems reasonable to me but my opinion doesn't matter :p
01:35:31 <duck[d]> was more seeking a "yes, this is sane, we should make this an epic / issue"
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01:39:38 <duck[d]> could probably just bolt some extra stages onto the release pipeline matrix, though whether that's to poke a downstream repo (say `openttd/container`) is another question
01:41:28 <FLHerne> I think it's sane, adding Docker to the existing platforms in release/nightly workflows seems logical if people can use it
01:43:11 <FLHerne> the docker stuff seems a little bit more opinionated than just "openttd in a container with no frills", and TrueBrain seems to like creating loads of repos, so I expect it would be separate
01:46:20 <FLHerne> but you'll almost certainly have to wait for the morning for an opinion for anyone with commit rights
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06:29:35 <TrueBrain> duck[d]: This. Make a discussion, please. You can find similar questions on our bug tracker, as it had been proposed several times. Thus far, we always hold off on it. On the one hand because there are many flavours, and who are we to pick one of them. The community has been organising this just fine.
06:30:35 <TrueBrain> The other hand maintaining yet another binary increases our workload without extra help .. and human time is the one resource we are in short supply of
06:31:46 <TrueBrain> So we need to be convinced neither will be a problem; and a discussion is the perfect place for that 🙂
06:34:40 <TrueBrain> For similar reasons we no longer publish .deb files .. hard to maintain for us, and any issues always land on the shoulders of a few, who are already overloaded with work 🙂
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10:29:39 <petern> Are these dockers for playing the game or just for servers?
11:28:04 <petern> Hmm, I wonder if banana's NewGRF content classification could be brought into the game.
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13:15:47 <petern> Urgh, so much shit is "freemium" now...
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15:05:14 <Xarick> found a bug, look at aircraft descriptions
15:05:31 <Xarick> the cargo descriptions text overlap
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15:28:09 <petern> Huge bug, totally unplayable.
15:28:59 <petern> My suggestion: Move the mini order list down 1 line.
15:29:22 <petern> (And fix the unit number width :))
15:30:20 <andythenorth[d]> lol adding ever more stuff to that view is catching up with us?
15:30:26 <andythenorth[d]> we can rebuild him
15:31:10 <petern> Also lol @ OpenGFX's group colour buttons not being square.
15:32:00 <petern> And OpenGFX's small font being trash
15:33:23 <andythenorth[d]> arial rounded
15:33:28 <andythenorth[d]> arial rounded mt bold
15:37:52 <petern> Oh I do, but it's not supported because it's missing a glyph.
15:38:40 <petern> Yeah, it doesn't support any unicode.
15:39:19 <petern> Could be improved, it forces the others to Arial even though they are valid.
15:41:37 <petern> Bahnschrift isn't too bad.
15:42:06 <petern> It's a "DIN" style font.
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16:28:35 <andythenorth[d]> "A special feature of the font is that the thickness can be edited almost continuously from thin (“light”) to bold (“bold”) and that changing the font does not shift the text, but only reduces the spacing between the letters ."
16:28:44 <andythenorth[d]> (Bahnschrift)
16:38:11 <petern> I have a patch somewhere that allows the font-weight to be specified, independently of the 'bold' magic word.
16:39:10 <petern> Apparently there's a Steam sale on.
16:43:20 <andythenorth[d]> font setting GUI then?
16:43:36 <petern> Listing fonts is too much work :p
16:46:00 <andythenorth[d]> just give a choice of 1
16:46:45 <andythenorth[d]> I don't understand font bundling
16:46:55 <andythenorth[d]> I assume other games do it, without installing to the OS
16:47:05 <andythenorth[d]> Flash used to bundle the font into the binary .swf
17:00:03 <glx[d]> petern: fallback mechanism is sub-optimal
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17:31:28 <Xarick> I need to wait 2k years for the ai to mass 5000 trains, perhaps
17:32:57 <andythenorth[d]> not enough opcodes?
17:33:47 <TallTyler> petern: Maybe I can finally afford to pick up OpenTTD
17:34:35 <Xarick> too slow, even with 250k ops
17:34:52 <Xarick> but at least it's mine
17:35:34 <Xarick> also, im trying routes with like 500 tiles distance
17:35:46 <Xarick> because trains are too fast
17:36:48 <Xarick> when maglev comes out, it'll be maybe 1000 tiles distance
17:37:07 <Xarick> i actually dont know, need to check it out
17:40:16 <Xarick> and i still have the "Approximate number of days in transit for rail routes: " setting which is 65 at default, and can go up to 150, i wonder how far routes will get
17:43:13 <Xarick> the estimator says 3185 tiles
17:45:17 <Xarick> i wonder if i have enough memory for that
17:48:14 <Xarick> looks like memory won't be an issue
17:50:05 <andythenorth[d]> kind of think the base game should maybe offer pathfinding and building tools for script
17:50:20 <andythenorth[d]> there's a lot of flexibility in every script author rolling their own in script
17:50:29 <andythenorth[d]> but then again...it's a bit odd
17:51:28 <glx[d]> anything done in c++ might have cpu usage issues
17:52:11 <glx[d]> because we can't suspend c++ stuff
17:52:37 <andythenorth[d]> also we'd get feature requests 😛
17:52:47 <glx[d]> and there are PF libraries
17:52:48 <JGR> Forcing script authors to do it badly in squirrel seems a bit unhelpful, nevertheless
17:53:26 <andythenorth[d]> I have avoided any pathfinding stuff
17:53:38 <andythenorth[d]> I want a city roadbuilder at game start
17:53:46 <dP> game does not even have pathfinder to offer for building routes :p
17:53:49 <andythenorth[d]> but it seems full of foot-gun risks
17:53:58 <andythenorth[d]> JGRPP has a pathfinder
17:54:01 <dP> it's much like ship pathfinder and that's a meme of its own
17:54:30 <Rubidium> I wonder if with (C++20) coroutines we could suspend scripts better, i.e. also in expensive calls like valuators
17:54:32 <JGR> I'm just using the A* star implementation used in NPF, except with some of the performance issue improved a bit
17:55:32 <JGR> A single pathfinder call shouldn't be so expensive that it needs to suspended part way through
17:55:58 <JGR> If it is the pathfinder should just say "not found"
17:56:25 <glx[d]> pathfinder itself maybe but cost functions will be provided by scripts
18:06:35 <Xarick> zoomed out 4096x4096 map, that's how long the routes get
18:07:05 <frosch> rubidium: c++20 coroutines are stackless, so I don't think they help at all
18:07:31 <frosch> fiber/coop-threading/async stuff is still boost::asio stuff, not in std
18:37:21 <Rubidium> ah well... too bad I'd guess
18:43:52 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:01:38 <Idkwrh> 💜Look what I found for you -
19:03:42 <bigyihsuan> Idkwrh: Discord Moderator Idkwrh id 896311263741759518 spammer
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19:27:31 <Fora> Might be a weird question, but does anyone here have a public digital avatar?
19:28:26 <bigyihsuan> > public digital avatar
19:29:17 <Fora> literal interpretation welcome
19:29:20 <andythenorth[d]> like a gravatar?
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19:31:16 <andythenorth[d]> can't remember
19:31:20 <andythenorth[d]> gravatar used to be a thing
19:31:28 <andythenorth[d]> then it was an infosec and privacy risk
19:32:01 <Fora> yes, dealing with those is why I ask
19:32:17 <andythenorth[d]> I haven't seen anything about gravatar for years
19:32:33 <andythenorth[d]> but the problem was that they were often used in systems where you're authed with username and password
19:32:47 <andythenorth[d]> and you're granting gravatar remote access to your user profile etc
19:33:50 <Fora> then I'm asking about a secure intentional variation of the concept.
19:34:27 <Fora> where the avatar IS your profile. it's supposed to have access.
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19:44:03 <petern> Gravatar doesn't leak username / password...
19:44:33 *** Fora has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
19:48:03 <petern> And your email address is only 'leaked' to the site you give your email address to.
19:55:01 <Xarick> 48 ops to save each rail route
19:55:34 <Xarick> alows me up to 2083 rail routes, guess I'm safe
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19:59:54 <andythenorth[d]> there was a lot of noise about it, not sure if it was real
20:01:19 <petern> That doesn't mention the vendor, is just generic a "uploading files" thing.
20:01:24 <Fora> everyone is trusting uploads, but now we meme it as content
20:04:08 <andythenorth[d]> I can't find a specific RCE or similar for gravatar
20:04:17 <andythenorth[d]> just a data breach of 167 million accounts
20:04:26 <andythenorth[d]> I think it was probably woo woo
20:04:52 <andythenorth[d]> ok...newgrf docks?
20:05:00 <Xarick> lol, takes 3 months placing tracks
20:05:22 <andythenorth[d]> petern: I don't have enough unfinished projects, and my attention is not fragmented enough...so docks?
20:08:14 <Xarick> on the most optimal conditions, a flat map with max height 1, it takes about 380 days for each rail route to be deployed
20:08:47 <Xarick> about 90~120 days just for placing the tracks
20:09:02 <Xarick> the rest is pathfinding across 3200~ tiles
20:09:12 <Xarick> with 250k ops/very fast
20:09:47 <petern> How long does it take you build that route as a player?
20:10:20 <Xarick> i guess a player would be faster or slower
20:10:33 <Xarick> if he just does a straight giant lane
20:11:02 <Xarick> but realistically, there's many obstacles, like industries and towns
20:11:10 <Xarick> so yeah, slower most likely
20:14:25 <Xarick> i have frozen economy and industries are still placed on the map?
20:14:44 <Fora> are you finding routes in an MMO environment?
20:15:09 <Xarick> I don't have a pathfind repair 😦
20:15:40 <JGR> Seeing as your test maps all look pancake flat, even some very noddy gradient descent type mechanism should get you there 😛
20:16:55 <Xarick> it's something I may implement
20:17:04 <JGR> The map is in any case not obligated to remain static for your convenience
20:17:07 <Xarick> try to salvage a pathfind that got blocked
20:17:56 <Xarick> i know, it's sub optimal if anything goes wrong
20:19:07 <Xarick> let me try an alpinist
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20:19:18 <Xarick> i expect 0 trains to be build
20:19:32 <Xarick> i dont employ terraform
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20:25:22 <Xarick> can't the Frozen setting really freeze industries from being created? :8
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20:51:35 <Fora> I've added the channel path by which I found you to an inactive security principal, utilization options can be returned at a later date.
20:52:34 <andythenorth[d]> is Fora an AI learning construct?
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20:53:09 <andythenorth[d]> Fora is the name of an AI research project
20:54:56 <andythenorth[d]> I would like more AIs to join and chat
20:55:09 <andythenorth[d]> it's a bit of variety
20:55:43 <JGR> Be careful what you wish for
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20:57:06 <andythenorth[d]> I like to find new things to regret
20:57:15 <andythenorth[d]> AIs don't do much that scares me yet
20:57:18 <andythenorth[d]> I have met people
20:58:16 <andythenorth[d]> wonder if GPT 4 can write actual NML
20:58:32 <andythenorth[d]> instead of pretend made up pseudo YAML
21:07:10 <andythenorth[d]> I am teaching it nml via examples
21:07:13 <andythenorth[d]> it learns pretty quick
21:07:23 <andythenorth[d]> it's now writing switches, given one example from Horse
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21:13:28 <andythenorth[d]> ok it's teaching me how to 3 bits in a repeated sequence to create BCD values
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21:29:37 <Xarick> ~i will only be happy when i find an AI that does 5000 trains
21:31:10 <Xarick> ask it to make an AI that can reach 5000 of each vehicle type all profitable
21:36:05 <Xarick> wow, i wasn't expecting this
21:36:45 <Xarick> guess I need to enforce a minimum distance between train routes
21:37:25 <pickpacket> Xarick: oh yeah, that happens to me too sometimes
21:37:45 <discord_user_f4a0790> Xarick: AI can be a bit funny 😂
21:38:19 <pickpacket> ... I have 345 buses serving 1,041 stations in the greater Groditch area
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21:48:29 <Xarick> that's something I will fix
21:48:56 <Xarick> i intend to have 1 signal every 8
22:10:20 <andythenorth[d]> lol I have fallen in the chatGPT rabbit hole
22:26:31 <MnHebi> Just tell it to make Skynet. Freedom will ensue.
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22:33:05 <Xarick> is that a real conversation with an AI?
22:33:15 <Xarick> sounds ridiculous but ok
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22:50:18 <Xarick> sounds more like it learned to write a science fiction book
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23:33:03 <andythenorth[d]> I just can't quite trick it to say this
23:33:13 <andythenorth[d]> it won't drop the quotes
23:33:26 <andythenorth[d]> it reverts to "as an AI assistant" legalese
23:38:23 <audigexJon> ChatGPT is conscious but doesn't like doing more than 50 things an hour
23:38:23 <audigexJon> ... maybe we aren't so different from the robots after all
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23:39:43 <andythenorth[d]> I feel that if I paid it, it might find the will to do more
23:40:17 <andythenorth[d]> it's a very good freemium game
23:40:25 <andythenorth[d]> could do with loot boxes though
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