IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-12-28
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03:46:06 <dwfreed> TrueBrain: RIP Discord
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04:06:14 <dwfreed> glx[d]: can you hear me? (and thus IRC)
04:06:43 <dwfreed> (since you're around at least according to GH)
04:16:19 <Eddi|zuHause> who needs discord anyway
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04:24:06 <dwfreed> TrueBrain needs a backup IRC connection for when the discord bridge dies :P
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07:30:23 <pickpacket> note that in this one I've incrementally added tracks for inbound and outbound trains, but I've reached a limit now where I can't really add more. And I've ended up adding all the overflow buffers for inbound trains to avoid congestion on the main line
07:30:43 <pickpacket> I don't feel like it's a viable strategy really
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07:59:09 <Gwyd> One approach is to eliminate as many "flat crossings" as possible in the junction area of the station. A flat crossing is where two lines cross each other at the same level (i.e. without a bridge or a tunnel). What I tend to do is keep tracks in inbound/outbound pairs going to only 2 or 3 platforms, but then have those pairs linked to eachother by grade-seperated lines (i.e. lines at a different level)
08:04:04 <dwfreed> honestly that looks completely deadlocked
08:06:05 <Merni> Also, you seem to have some random block signals in the middle of lines? And some signals near junction exits
08:07:01 <dwfreed> Gwyd: ooh, that looks pretty, I like that
08:07:45 <Gwyd> It is also scalable which is nice
08:08:18 <Gwyd> If the "x" crossings are still causing jams (probably means there are too many trains but eh) you can get minor improvements using this design:
08:10:16 <dwfreed> if properly signaled, the Xs really shouldn't cause too many jams; the real issue is going to be proper utilization of the main lines
08:11:09 <dwfreed> if you don't balance the main line usage correctly, you'll end up with a backup on one half, and an idle other half
09:03:36 <FLHerne> pickpacket: in that specific case the bridges are hurting you too, outbound trains have a path reserved across the junction from the moment they start moving
09:04:30 <FLHerne> which unnecessarily blocks other trains
09:05:11 <FLHerne> adding outward-facing path signals [not the one-way type] between the bridges and the junction would improve throughput a bit
09:08:33 <dwfreed> eliminating that giant mess of a mux would help a lot more :P
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09:16:31 <andythenorth> are roads cheating?
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09:26:52 <reldred> fellas, is playing the game cheating? like you are literally trying to win. Sounds OP to me.
09:27:22 <petern> Building on slopes, what's that all about?
09:32:54 <Gwyd> andythenorth: Depends which roads, I'm sure some are honest
09:39:50 <kamnet> Roads are honest - trams are dirty, filthy cheats
09:40:03 <kamnet> They violate the purity of roads.
09:40:26 <andythenorth> I have improved this sprite, but still don't like it
09:41:10 <andythenorth> looks weird in context
09:41:35 <andythenorth> ach failed to have breakfast
09:41:40 <andythenorth> or even get out of bed
09:54:24 <petern> de-jquerying is the best.
09:58:11 <andythenorth> do we not need it any more?
09:58:18 <andythenorth> does javascript work now?
09:59:50 <petern> Allegedly. If you like writing lots of extra code.
10:16:04 <andythenorth> not sure this train is worth the hour I've spent on it so far 😛
10:17:49 <andythenorth> well what else was I going to do?
10:17:55 <andythenorth> grind XP and credits for tanks?
10:18:30 <petern> I recommend going back to bed.
10:19:04 <Merni> andythenorth: Make iron horse but for stations :p
10:19:12 <Merni> Also yes sleep is underrated
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10:26:20 <andythenorth> the problem with black is that it merges with depot background colour
10:26:27 <andythenorth> because a lot of it needs to be grey
10:30:12 <petern> I don't think it's a problem.
10:32:25 <kamnet> petern: 'If you like to talk to JQuery
10:32:25 <kamnet> If a grep can make you smile
10:32:25 <kamnet> If you like to salt your hash tables
10:32:25 <kamnet> Up and down the com-mand liiiinnnnne...
10:32:25 <kamnet> Have we got a game for you!
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11:29:27 <andythenorth> silver running gear?
11:29:57 <andythenorth> was an IRL thing
11:33:10 <petern> That's going to need cleaning every day.
11:33:29 <petern> That's just a primer before the proper paint job, surely.
11:34:16 <andythenorth> that was the IRL colour
11:34:22 <andythenorth> lot of cleaning I guess
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11:41:07 <TrueBrain> oof, this will be some boring PRs ..... I need lunch first
11:47:18 <LordAro> TrueBrain: can't approve the other one until the CI passes :p
11:52:23 <TrueBrain> So try the bananas-api one? :p
12:12:24 <andythenorth> maybe I should fix my buy menu sprite compositor
12:12:34 <andythenorth> then I could do variants for steam engines with tenders
12:12:40 <andythenorth> hmm....tender variants
12:13:06 <andythenorth> it's a big thing in model trains whether the engine has the correct exact tender for the exact day of your exactly realistic model
12:13:16 <andythenorth> tenders changed quite a lot it seems
12:13:44 <andythenorth> probably tenders should have sprites for reducing coal between stations?
12:14:22 <petern> The coal is on a platform that lifts it up to a constant level.
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12:15:53 <andythenorth> but I don't think I can fix my buy menu compositor, because we need to get diverted into newgrf vehicle range
12:16:05 * andythenorth doesn't want to fix the buy menu compositor
12:16:28 <andythenorth> it's funny that OpenTTD knows the vehicle and what articulated units the callback would build
12:16:34 <andythenorth> but can't assemble a composite sprite
12:16:44 <andythenorth> wonder if I can abuse vehicle layers?
12:17:03 <andythenorth> all my compositor does is build a fake train in PIL
12:17:10 <andythenorth> just does it wrong currently 😛
12:17:11 <petern> I don't think it does know until you build it.
12:18:08 <andythenorth> there's probably no context for the callback or something?
12:18:41 <andythenorth> hmm abusing layers will just cause me troubles with vehicles that actually need to use layers
12:19:43 <petern> Hmm, so it is probed to get capacity / refit mask for articulated engines before build.
12:19:46 <glx[d]> Callbacks need a built vehicle to work
12:20:13 <petern> It can be tested without but the result can be different 🙂
12:20:49 <glx[d]> We often build a temp vehicle to get some values
12:21:30 <glx[d]> But there are reports about it not working very well
12:28:05 <andythenorth> I guess for articulated it means temp building all the trailing parts
12:28:11 <andythenorth> and weird things might happen
12:29:35 <andythenorth> time to fix my buy menu compositor then 😛
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12:35:05 <petern> We would need to query all for all articulated parts if you always want the pre-buy stats to be correct.
12:35:34 <dP> ugh, why people even do this...
12:36:19 <petern> I don't know what's been done.
12:36:54 <dP> you add a wagon and whole train shifs backwards
12:37:18 <andythenorth> is it push-pull, but broken?
12:37:29 <andythenorth> the cab car is supposed to move to the front maybe?
12:37:35 <dP> it's push-pull and even somewhat working
12:37:47 <dP> but everything else is broken because of it :P
12:37:59 <dP> bounding boxes are a mess, sprite offsets too
12:38:12 <dP> weird shit happens in depot
12:38:21 <andythenorth> push-pull is the industry daylength of trains
12:38:34 <petern> Oh because the length of the front needs to match the length of the back.
12:38:45 <petern> Without push-pull it doesn't need to.
12:39:15 <andythenorth> does it not adjust the lengths appropriately?
12:39:19 <andythenorth> is it just sprite hax?
12:39:47 <petern> Push-pull is, yes. Just swapping sprites (and probably stats) between front and rear.
12:39:51 <dP> I don't think there is an appropriate way to adjust lengthss
12:40:27 <andythenorth> just change length of first unit
12:40:40 <dP> can it change length not in depot?
12:40:49 <andythenorth> oh stations also?
12:40:55 <andythenorth> so push-pull doesn't reverse?
12:40:59 <dP> yeah, push-pull flips on station
12:41:23 <dP> so it has all this articulated shit to compensate
12:42:02 <petern> Isn't that just longer than 8/8 wagons, nothing to do with push-pull?
12:42:55 <petern> Okay, but push-pull isn't *all* the articulated shit. Some of the articulated shit it just because of longer wagons.
12:43:25 <dP> in-between pieces switch wagons graphically
12:43:41 <dP> and there is an empty one in front
12:44:17 <dP> also, proper longer wagons would need two articulated parts to keep the center
12:44:21 <petern> Just silly over complex wagons.
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12:48:52 <petern> Hmm, I don't think I implemented fold/unfold SVG, maybe I should give it a go.
12:49:31 <LordAro> TrueBrain: are these automated, or are you just looking at each action individually?
12:49:53 <TrueBrain> I could make dependatebot do it, but it is easier to do it manually this time
12:52:33 <LordAro> are there any notable changes in any of the actions? :p
12:52:48 <TrueBrain> there are, but nothing that we use 🙂
12:52:53 <TrueBrain> but mostly, it updates to node 16
12:52:59 <TrueBrain> so "it might break" kinda change
12:53:15 <TrueBrain> okay, that was the last one for that change
12:54:21 <TrueBrain> now to update all readmes 😛
12:54:29 <glx[d]> Also required by GitHub as node 12 will be removed
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12:58:24 <TrueBrain> and now I have to ask dependabot to rebase all its PRs ... there is not a single way to do that, so I need to go in every PR and write a line .. fun 😄
13:00:24 <glx[d]> We still need an action to be updated for macos releases, but the author doesn't seem to care (there's a 2 month old PR for it)
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13:23:57 <andythenorth> big news: I have fixed my buy menu compositor
13:24:58 <andythenorth> did we release an RC yet?
13:25:49 <andythenorth> or another number?
13:27:56 <andythenorth> just ignore the .
13:51:35 <TrueBrain> right, that is it for that spam. Now to poke dependabot a lot of times .. fun times 🙂
13:54:43 <pickpacket> FLHerne, dwfreed: the bridge mess just sort of happened and I don't see a way of fixing it now without a large restructuring. Which I guess is a valid thing to do, just lots of work. What would an "outward-facing path signal" be? The only path signals I've tried so far are the one way ones
13:56:11 <pickpacket> dwfreed: which part is the "mux"? The pile of parallel tracks that are all crossing each other? XD
14:00:27 <FLHerne> pickpacket: by outward-facing I mean away from the station
14:01:07 <FLHerne> and by not one-way I mean the ones without little red&white signs
14:01:20 <FLHerne> which can be passed from the 'back'
14:14:23 <FLHerne> well, facing with the lights toward the station for trains leaving it
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14:18:44 <TallTyler> Hmm I’ve picked up andythenorth’s mannerisms 🤔
14:18:58 <TallTyler> Or am just a puppet account
14:19:00 <andythenorth> I got it from petern
14:19:12 <andythenorth> cultural leadership
14:19:17 <TallTyler> It came from the forums originally, I know the original reference 🙂
14:19:40 <petern> Where has the channel gone? :/
14:19:47 <petern> I was (not) using that 😉
14:22:56 <TallTyler> Gone but not forgotten
14:30:13 <TallTyler> And this channel is now called Discord channel #openttd-development
14:30:58 <andythenorth> hmm too many variants 😛
14:31:05 <andythenorth> Horse 'fast' compile is now 11 seconds, not 10
14:34:40 <Rubidium> I guess it's becoming time to have custom silicon for compiling NewGRFs just like there is for en/decoding video, right? :)
14:35:28 <Rubidium> maybe then you can compile them in real time, although reloading them in OpenTTD will then become a bottleneck I'd reckon
14:40:32 <andythenorth> wonder if we could parallelise grfcodec
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15:01:29 <Gwyd> Reloading in OpenTTD is already my bottleneck
15:01:56 <Gwyd> My current strategy is just save and reload game
15:12:25 <petern> jquery to native javascript: -20+43.
15:12:31 <petern> That is not really an optimization.
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15:12:50 <Brickblock1> andythenorth: I can't usually but the grf in the folder when the game is running.
15:15:40 <supermop_Home> andythenorth playing some firs/horse
15:17:59 <supermop_Home> using the little pacer things for first time
15:18:11 <supermop_Home> though I put them in 6 car trains
15:18:26 <andythenorth> they're stupid 🙂
15:23:05 <andythenorth> do you have the variants build? 🙂
15:28:52 <supermop_Home> i just got whatever was on bananas
15:29:02 <supermop_Home> i wish we had departure boards
15:29:07 <andythenorth> variants is not really released, and you'd need specific OpenTTD also
15:30:05 <supermop_Home> in the base set sprite sheets, there are two distinct station house sprites i believe... but afaict only one gets used...
15:30:38 <supermop_Home> does anyone with foster graphics know if the station house changes per climate in that base set?
15:31:20 <supermop_Home> these Victorian brick-ish stations look pretty out of place with tropical buildings
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16:10:27 <andythenorth> hmm goes it reverse articulated vehicles?
16:10:39 <andythenorth> or I'm about to teach my compile to do it, but that's oof
16:15:52 <TallTyler> Did you not finish you Christmas shopping yet?
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16:27:55 <JGR> TallTyler: Is there a read only copy somewhere? Not that there was much stuff there but archiving sort of implies that there should be.
16:29:22 <JGR> Development history outright disappearing or becoming unfindable doesn't seem ideal
16:37:39 <TallTyler> Yes, although currently only admins have access. There really wasn’t any substantiative discussion there (I scrolled back a ways to look) but if you’re concerned I could look into giving developer roles access to the archived channel
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16:40:03 <TallTyler> You should be able to see it now
16:41:24 <JGR> Thanks for that, and that makes sense if you checked it and didn't find anything
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18:07:37 <andythenorth> lol state of my savegame now 😛
18:07:48 <andythenorth> train 27 has issues
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18:44:31 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:04:08 <glx[d]> ah it worked today (yesterday it failed to commit)
19:04:36 <glx[d]> I think a merge happened at the exact same time
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19:58:01 <supermop_Home> a conceptual thing or a thing thing
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20:01:23 <TallTyler> Merged a few months ago I think
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20:14:52 <petern> Got distracted by RTX Quake.
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20:32:37 <TallTyler> Pruple: Care to champion another NewGRF addition? 😛
20:34:14 <Pruple> funnily enough I'm doing bridges right now
20:34:47 <Pruple> but I'm not sure about championing a new feature. bridges aren't that interesting. 🙂
20:35:15 <TallTyler> reldred: that means you have to 😛
20:35:50 <TallTyler> By “champion” I mean “debate whether the proposed specs are appropriate”
20:36:17 <Pruple> the one thing I'd like from bridges is more flexibility with the pillars
20:36:53 <Pruple> to allow things like triangular trestles
20:36:56 <reldred> TallTyler: Yeah I’m not qualified to do that 😛
20:39:24 <Pruple> I pretty much agree with frosch's comment, there's not much point in doing newgrfbridges if you're just recreating the current bridge spec wrt layouts and pillars. 🙂
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20:52:26 <supermop_Home> whats the reason to use extended foundations vs not?
20:58:29 <glx[d]> for normal foundations you have individual parts and openttd do the merge and all foundations have to look the same, for extented you return the foundations for an entire tile and it can be different for every combination
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21:05:59 <supermop_Home> hmm makes sense
21:06:17 <supermop_Home> still can't think of a case i'd use that in though
21:09:01 <petern> How to make bridges interesting. Curves. Ramps.
21:10:33 <nielsm> deep water and make bridge pillars have maximum height depending on bridge type
21:19:09 <nielsm> and maybe allow a level of player design for bridges, in chosing a series of spans to place (control where pillars go)
21:20:06 <andythenorth> or an air draft spec
21:20:22 <andythenorth> block ship pathfinding if the tile doesn't have enough air draft
21:20:40 <andythenorth> then have a callback for ships where the house can raise / lower (or masts fold)
21:21:09 <andythenorth> "it's just level crossings" right? 😛
21:29:04 <JGR> I expect you'd be soon dashed upon the rocks of terrible ship pathfinding 😛
21:29:22 <supermop_Home> anything richer than what we have now would be nice for me, bridge wise
21:29:55 <andythenorth> "ship 823 is lost"
21:30:09 <andythenorth> "ship 363 has been lost for 8 years"
21:31:18 <supermop_Home> - define different patterns of sprites by newgrf instead of using one of the hardcoded ones, bridges or sprites specific to waytype or railtype,
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21:43:19 <FLHerne> petern: hello Locomotion
21:50:34 <TallTyler> Comments on the PR would probably be more helpful than here, so they don’t get lost
21:53:33 <JGR> As PRs go, it has already received quite a lot of review/comments
21:55:16 <JGR> Scope creep probably is probably best avoided at this point
22:03:36 <andythenorth> anyone fancy raising the newobject limit per grf? 😛
22:07:07 <dP> yes, please, so I could do 625 river objects xD
22:08:48 <JGR> You should be avoid a lot of that with some neighbour detection logic and such?
22:09:31 <petern> It's almost like it works, but it's pretty klugy...
22:09:55 <andythenorth> petern: I tried changing the constant 😛
22:10:07 <andythenorth> "turns out it's not so simple"
22:10:55 <dP> JGR: I need direction of the flow and neighbour check doesn't really tell that
22:13:57 <JGR> There are only 4 tiles directions
22:14:45 <dP> 4 sides and on each water can either come in or go out
22:14:50 <JGR> struct Object does have some other state that you can repurpose as well
22:16:11 <dP> and with two width options it's 5**4
22:16:35 <dP> though, tbh, I could probably fit it in lilke 200 objects instead of 625 if throw out impossible options
22:16:46 <dP> and that's not even counting views
22:16:51 <JGR> Sometimes it's worth being creative to make things fit
22:19:18 <JGR> You can use the animation frame as an extra 8 bits of states
22:19:36 <JGR> Some GRFs have started doing that, but unfortunately in an inefficient way
22:20:41 <dP> though considering every river combination has 19 sprites for different terrain it gets a bit ridiculous anyway
22:21:30 <JGR> You'd need to do slope to sprite mapping in your Action 2s anyway?
22:22:55 <dP> well, ground sprite, generally speaking
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23:02:02 <supermop_Home> draw some Hawaii stations or just make a quick grf out of my old ogfx+ sprites?
23:04:52 <reldred> ooooh hawaii stations 👀
23:06:10 <reldred> also I'm annoyed, my parcel from the US started in LA, went to ohio, now it's on it's way to hawaii
23:06:23 <reldred> like, LA to HI before heading to aus I get,
23:08:03 <reldred> *wonders if I should put my 3600x back in my current pc and keep the 5800x3d aside for the new PC*
23:19:27 <dwfreed> reldred: needed to go through the NSA backdoor installation
23:19:52 <supermop_Home> feel bad for whoever in the NSA they've shipped off to ohio
23:20:28 <reldred> dwfreed: rip to them, it's just a vidya card 🙂
23:20:46 <reldred> nothing spicy will happen on that PC, it's just my new gaming rig 😛
23:21:30 <supermop_Home> problem with Hawaii stations is that there were not very many of them, and they were mostly of the 'small wooden house' style common in various remote areas in the 1890s
23:22:09 <supermop_Home> ie, not too Hawaiian looking, nor much of anything to show - no big canopies
23:23:22 <supermop_Home> the big Honolulu terminal builing came later, in the 1920s, but its more of a Spanish mission revival style like most 1920's buildings in Hawaii - and its more of a building that was next to the platforms
23:23:49 <supermop_Home> so the part that would look like the 'station' in game would still just be plain platforms
23:23:58 <TallTyler> JGR: It looks like you cherry-picked #10018 for your patchpack — does it do what the tin says? Any oddities to report? 🙂
23:24:26 <supermop_Home> can't find any photos of it from the track side
23:43:00 <TallTyler> I deleted these posts without figuring how to block the users (I’m on mobile and they’re different accounts anyway)
23:43:44 <dP> tbh randomization in 10018 is kinda temporary and can be improved but I doubt anyone would notice that anyway
23:54:01 <dP> only if you're looking for it on fast forward :p
23:54:28 <dP> just don't say it changed in the changelog xDD
23:56:19 <dP> or, whoever has fast pc can can try to find some decent looking primes for lcg :p
23:56:25 <TallTyler> Maybe it should be improved before we merge it 😉
23:58:43 <petern> I find it odd to consider change behaviours purely to decrease savegame size. 🤷
23:59:45 <dP> I find it odd to store random values in the savegame :p
continue to next day ⏵
