IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-12-27
⏴ go to previous day
00:37:16 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC ()
03:16:08 *** Wormnest has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
03:22:00 *** hopingstar1806[m] has left #openttd
03:26:24 *** _aD has quit IRC (Quit: leaving)
03:41:30 *** D-HUND has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
08:01:01 *** Tirili has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
08:49:12 <andythenorth> oops, forgot to build statues
08:49:19 <andythenorth> grrrrreat mechanic 🙂
08:53:20 *** Flygon_ has joined #openttd
08:53:58 *** Flygon has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
08:57:42 <andythenorth> goes it put station rating boost back in FIRS? 😛
09:02:14 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
09:11:27 <pickpacket> I love the build statue thing :D
09:44:49 <petern> Candied jalapeno marmalade.
09:53:41 <andythenorth> I am having to read words twice right now
09:54:10 <andythenorth> marmalade surprise
10:23:12 <petern> Hmm, something has changed on my system :/
10:25:19 <petern> When I set up truetype fonts, the game window rescales when it gains/loses focus. wtaf.
10:30:50 <petern> Something to do with loading "Inter Medium" causes it.
10:39:16 <andythenorth> oh we merged this 😄
10:42:53 <petern> Though we do use it in a few other cases.
10:44:18 <petern> I'm lazy, all these days off and I'm not cycling :/
10:47:35 <petern> So even with 100% desktop scale... it still does this :/
10:48:32 <dP> andythenorth: will it still say "bad luck" if there is no suitable place at all on the map?
10:48:50 <andythenorth> could be bad luck though
10:48:59 <dP> yeah, on map generation xD
10:49:04 <LordAro> "you generated an unsuitable map, bad luck"
10:49:26 <Pruple> the "; try again" is a little superfluous. Error messages don't usually include advice or instructions, do they?
10:50:05 <petern> Why does loading a font cause rendering to go weird?
10:50:09 <andythenorth> also you might have no money left to try 😛
10:50:19 <andythenorth> goes it make a branch and PR for a typo?
10:53:12 <LordAro> andythenorth: i thought the error message was distinct from not enough money?
10:53:18 <LordAro> it was supposed to be..
10:53:21 <petern> Oof, I turned off HW acceleration and now the game crashes on start up.
10:53:26 <petern> "CreateDIBSection failed"
10:54:03 <andythenorth> LordAro pretty certain it is, but the helpful advice 'try again' might not be possible
10:54:08 <andythenorth> if was your last dollar
11:09:58 <petern> Oh, whoever played Wentbourne didn't do shared orders.
11:10:15 <Rubidium> "try again later when you have enough money and are willing to gamble that money away on prospecting
11:10:45 <petern> 4833 trains, all with individual orders 😮
11:13:35 <LordAro> i don't think it was "played" as such
11:38:58 <michi_cc[d]> Hmm, how bad would it be to completely ignore the hundreds and hundreds of lines of cargo handling from cargodist and duplicate it similar but slightly different...
11:39:31 <michi_cc[d]> Probably not the best idea, but unfortunately all this cargodist stuff is keyed on station from start to finish, while I need it on order level.
11:39:44 <andythenorth> dist model as content? 😛
11:39:50 <andythenorth> C++ plugin framework?
12:03:03 <petern> Then you don't need to ignore cargodist, you can remove the bits no longer needed.
12:03:13 <michi_cc[d]> Keying all this stuff on StationID is totally fine for a statistical cargo distribution simulation, but if you want to actually route cargo, you need order granularity.
12:04:23 <michi_cc[d]> I'm not sure I want to endure the drama for kicking cargodist out as it will completely wreck the network in existing games.
12:04:45 <petern> Maybe, but I think most people only use CargoDist because it gives them some sort of destination without having to do manual transfers, and would prefer CargoDest.
12:04:48 <reldred> Man it would be good for a laugh
12:05:52 <petern> Ah, my bug was I override OnInit() without calling the base OnInit(). oops.
12:06:06 <andythenorth> cargodist should be off for most players for most cargos
12:06:24 <reldred> TBH I have no problem with cargodist for cargo, cargodest would be cool for passengers
12:13:24 <JGR> michi_cc[d]: What do you mean by order granularity here?
12:15:15 <petern> andythenorth: it doesn't do what you expect doesn't mean it's broken 🙂
12:15:15 <michi_cc[d]> Cargodist sorts and assigns all the cargopackets and links by next station. But for real destination routing, there's a difference between a vehicle going A-B-C and A-B-D, so you need shared order list granularity, not just next station.
12:15:22 <petern> (like subtype refits ;))
12:16:15 <andythenorth> petern: do I get a T-shirt with this on it?
12:16:54 <JGR> michi_cc[d]: I see what you mean now. I tried to look at this a couple of times before but never got anywhere useful.
12:17:02 <petern> Saying that, I'm sure loading "Inter Medium" shouldn't do what it does...
12:18:05 <petern> Ignoring removing CargoDist, I'm happy for bits to be duplicated if it means we get closer to CargoDest.
12:20:11 <Merni> Will cargodest be more intelligent about taking routes with more stops if the direct route is overcrowded? :P
12:20:37 <JGR> It does that fine already, if the parameters are set reasonably
12:21:28 <JGR> It's things like skip-stopping patterns which are handled particularly badly
12:22:29 <michi_cc[d]> Non-deterministic conditional orders are also bad for any cargo routing, but would be even more bad for cargodest than cargodist.
12:23:07 <andythenorth> I have seen cdist do 'interesting' things, like route cargo the opposite way to the destination, because there's a connection
12:23:26 <JGR> That is common enough in real life 😛
12:23:40 <andythenorth> time vs. distance 😛
12:24:04 <JGR> The time based stuff which was merged into master recently works quite well
12:28:50 <Merni> JGR: Yeah, this is what I meant -- it always wants to take a non-stop route even if a better route with a few stops (not transfers) is available
12:31:27 <JGR> Cargo just getting on the first acceptable vehicle makes downstream capacity/usage estimation much more difficult
12:32:18 <JGR> The TTDP cargo dist implementation sort of worked that way
12:32:29 <JGR> It was rather difficult to tune
12:50:02 <debdog> funny, how everyone's suddenly getting silent when someone asks a trick question
12:52:03 <andythenorth> the logs show nobody here
12:52:13 <andythenorth> nobody talking at all for as much as 15 minutes
12:52:20 <andythenorth> so no, the channel is dead
12:58:46 <klote> Was hoping some one could help me how to properly setup a dedicated openttd server
12:59:06 <klote> including some form of RCON bot with commands
12:59:51 <michi_cc[d]> There's a whole multiplayer section in this Discord, might be a better place to ask.
13:01:13 <klote> sadly no one really responds
13:10:14 *** ag has quit IRC (Quit: User went offline on Discord a while ago)
13:16:03 *** Smedles_ has joined #openttd
13:19:17 *** Smedles has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
13:40:26 <FLHerne> klote: dP runs CityMania so presumably knows that stuff
13:42:05 <FLHerne> you're more likely to get answers to specific questions, people don't like committing to open-ended requests for "help"
13:47:52 *** iddi has quit IRC (Quit: User went offline on Discord a while ago)
13:48:55 <dP> CItyMania is not rly a good example, it uses patched server and a custom server runner
13:53:29 <dP> I even somewhat moved from commands to web admin lately xD
14:01:21 <FLHerne> rather than writing all the code to send packets etc. yourself
14:01:28 <dP> klote: if you want custom commands you'll need to make an external program that defines their logic, and to communicate from that program to openttd you'll need a library unless you want to implement the admin port protocol yourself
14:02:42 <klote> dP: Ah right, yeah im not a coder. i was hoping there is a program tool that already had those functions
14:02:59 <klote> and only requires configuring
14:04:13 <dP> not sure how useful it is for your usecase though
14:07:27 <klote> Will have a look thanks
14:07:54 <TallTyler> petern: Goes it approve #10151 or are you still playing with things or hoping to test other OS renderings first?
14:29:20 *** supermop_Home__ has joined #openttd
14:39:23 <petern> TallTyler: Oh yes, I was trying to build with FreeType on Windows so I could fiddle, and then got sidetracked.
14:49:59 *** nielsm has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
15:18:13 <dP> ugh, nmlc crops sprites :(
15:18:22 <dP> was hoping to decompile templates
15:19:03 <dP> guess I still can, just more work
15:29:12 <frosch> dP: there is an option to disable that
15:30:33 <dP> yeah, but I only have grf file to work with
15:40:51 * petern fiddles with layouts again
15:46:08 <michi_cc[d]> Oh, a frosch. Quick, hide the chaos we made 🙂
15:53:25 <andythenorth> did you replace cdist yet? 😛
15:57:15 <petern> Hmm, sizing gui to fit strings: takes up less space with English, and about double the width with German...
16:49:24 *** Flygon_ has quit IRC (Quit: A toaster's basically a soldering iron designed to toast bread)
17:02:08 <FLHerne> is anyone doing #10271 (NRT road stops)
17:11:43 <petern> But I had no idea there was an option to allow founding towns in game.
17:37:14 *** wallabra_ has joined #openttd
17:37:20 *** wallabra has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
17:37:25 *** wallabra_ is now known as wallabra
17:38:48 <petern> FLHerne, don't think so.
17:38:59 *** NekoMaster has joined #openttd
17:38:59 <NekoMaster> That options been around for ages now, foudning towns in game
17:52:28 <FLHerne> I'll try doing it then
17:58:27 <TallTyler> Heiki: For hiding buttons, look at how we’ve hidden block signals
18:01:25 <FLHerne> Pruple: should NRT road stops have different ground sprites for bus vs. truck stations?
18:01:45 <FLHerne> despite them being identical
18:05:22 <Pruple> I want to say probably not? since the old spec only provided one. And I'm too lazy to redo the test grf. And realistically, if you did want different ground sprites, you could just provide them using one of the rear sprites. 🙂
18:12:51 <Pruple> depots seem to be done
18:13:04 <Pruple> road stops might be next 😄
18:20:44 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
18:36:18 <TallTyler> Do we even need NRT specific road stops, or just use NewGRF road stops? (Theres a PR to upstream them from JGRPP)
18:37:39 <Pruple> newroadstops require cooperation from the player, roadtype-specific defaults do not 🙂
18:37:47 <Pruple> and if they're easy to add, why not add them?
18:39:05 <Pruple> and having roadtype-specific defaults doesn't conflict with newroadstops at all
18:54:39 <FLHerne> TallTyler: it's even a TTD feature when it comes to railtypes :p
18:54:59 <FLHerne> the monorail/maglev stations being different
19:35:12 <petern> Bus and truck stops tho
19:36:45 <andythenorth> I am playing OpenTTD
19:36:51 <andythenorth> I just built a bunch of truck stops for my buses
19:37:12 <andythenorth> then, because I can't tell 6 from 7 apparently, I demolished them all and replaced them with...more truck stops
19:38:30 <LordAro> maybe you should just build trucks instead
19:40:58 <FLHerne> tbh I don't get why there's a distinction for RVs
19:41:13 <FLHerne> none of the other transport modes have one
19:41:39 <andythenorth> probably so they can have different sprites
19:41:52 <andythenorth> and IRL in the UK trucks don't use bus stations
19:47:37 <FLHerne> freight trains don't use passenger stations with big overall roofs either
19:50:30 <Rubidium> diesel trains do not use a pantograph... oh no, some do :D
20:13:44 <pickpacket> I think I've hit an income ceiling on my current map. I keep having to add trains to pick up waiting cargo, and that works, but I don't seem to ever make more than £30m/year
20:14:42 <pickpacket> I think it's because my main rail is just too clogged... I'll have to see if I even *can* expand it to more rails
20:15:22 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
20:21:15 *** supermop_Home__ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
20:35:33 *** wallabra_ has joined #openttd
20:39:05 <imlegos> andythenorth: American here, we don't either.
20:41:13 *** wallabra has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
20:41:13 *** wallabra_ is now known as wallabra
20:46:08 <frosch> FLHerne: people like to use distinct platforms for specific cargotypes. so in a more general sense: it would make sense to have stops per cargotype
20:46:36 <frosch> i.e. "desired cargotype" could be a newgrf variable, and the pax/non-pax would be a gui restriction
20:47:38 <petern> Some kind of NewGRF stations extension?
20:49:48 <FLHerne> frosch: I mean, for NewGRFs there's clearly demand for any level of complexity imaginable
20:50:34 <frosch> i am not up-to-date with the recent features 🙂 but if it is about adding newgrf graphics for bus/truck stops, it may make sense to generalize it for all station types: prefer showing cargo for cargotype X
20:50:48 <frosch> even if it is only a variable for now, and there is no gui or other stuff
20:50:55 <FLHerne> it just seems arbitrary that the original TTD (or even TTO?) decided to make that distinction for RVs in particular
20:51:23 <frosch> newstations always had issues with showing cargos, with full-load / no waiting cargos. so assigning speicifc cargo-types may make sense
20:51:46 <frosch> though i guess station grfs have destrict stationtypes anyway
20:51:55 <FLHerne> frosch: right now the discussion was just roadtype-specific sprites for the standard stop via action3
20:52:11 <FLHerne> JGR does have a full newroadstops PR open
20:52:36 <frosch> FLHerne: yes, but do you distinguish bus/truck via action3 type or via some other variable?
20:52:47 <imlegos> Also I'ma be honest; I have no idea what this channel even is
20:53:01 <frosch> if you use action3, you are stuck with bus/truck forever, using a variable would allow distinguishing other cargo types
20:53:28 <imlegos> Normally you'd expect a channel's description to explain it, but reading it made me more confused
20:53:35 <FLHerne> imlegos: it's the #openttd IRC channel, which was traditionally the main dev channel, bridged onto Discord
20:53:55 <FLHerne> blame Truebrain for the silly description
20:54:04 <imlegos> Then what does that ake Discord channel #openttd-development ?
20:54:20 <frosch> iirc that channel is "to be deleted" or so
20:54:44 <FLHerne> imlegos: predates the Discord bridge
20:55:13 <petern> > This channel provides a bridge to a relic of the past. You may have heard your great-grandfather talk about it. Before people sent telegraphs, they would use IRC. Some people never stopped. This channel is for them.
20:55:15 <FLHerne> there were parallel IRC and Discord channels which was unhelpful
20:55:25 <petern> That's not totally silly 🙂
20:56:31 <FLHerne> and yeah, this IRC channel predates Discord as a whole
20:56:50 <FLHerne> IRC as a whole is from the 80s
20:57:21 <imlegos> Alright, so the main thing was just me not knowing what 'IRC' was
21:00:23 <Pruple> frosch: it seems to have worked okay for the last 27 years
21:01:04 <petern> I don't think there needs to be anything other than bus/truck, tbh.
21:01:24 <Pruple> newroadstops can do fancier things with per-cargo graphics, #10271 is just about matching the basic stop graphics to the roadtype
21:01:28 <FLHerne> imlegos: IRC is to Discord what email is to...whatever people use instead of email :p
21:01:50 <FLHerne> Gmail without considering other providers?
21:01:58 <dP> irc is a next technological step after pigeon post :p
21:02:07 <imlegos> Gmail is just a type of Email so nah, that doesn't work
21:03:00 <FLHerne> there must be some proprietary megacorp nonsense that people are using instead of email now
21:03:09 <dP> there is even a standard for doing irc over pigeon post...
21:03:14 <FLHerne> maybe traditional forums vs Reddit
21:04:34 <petern> We should set up a Gopher server.
21:05:31 <imlegos> Fax or AOL for not-email
21:07:56 <FLHerne> well, email is still an open decentralised protocol
21:08:04 <FLHerne> more so than fax even
21:09:31 <petern> Although the big email providers make it difficult these days.
21:12:06 <FLHerne> hence what I said about Gmail :p
21:16:45 *** gelignite has quit IRC (Quit: Stay safe!)
21:33:58 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
21:34:55 <andythenorth> assigning a cargo to a station tile is an interesting idea
21:34:58 <andythenorth> or an order of cargos
21:36:53 <FLHerne> perhaps there could be a station tile var for the cargo currently being loaded
21:37:16 <FLHerne> or the most common cargo loaded in the last three months or whatever
21:40:55 <petern> Hmm, reordering a window to draw (the same contents) from right-to-left...
21:44:15 <andythenorth> oops I disabled autosave a few weeks ago
21:44:35 <andythenorth> and just made a mistake with my current game 😛
21:44:47 <andythenorth> i.e. loading an older version without a current save 😛
22:02:56 <petern> You actually played the game...
22:04:13 <andythenorth> I'll be playing the same bit of story again 😛
22:04:22 <andythenorth> I'll have to watch all the cut scenes again 😦
22:12:41 *** Wormnest has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
22:28:42 <JGR> reldred: It seems to work fine, I can post a build for the PR if you like?
22:28:59 <reldred> Sure, if it helps other folks test
22:29:32 <reldred> Or gpl3, whatever fridaemons object set has
22:29:57 <reldred> I really should clean up those repos and put the licenses in there… 🤔
22:32:46 *** nielsm has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
22:35:05 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
22:35:39 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
22:36:33 *** wallabra_ has joined #openttd
22:38:34 <glx[d]> I triggered a release build for #10144, binaries should be available in about 45 minutes
22:39:30 <andythenorth> newgrf roadstops 😮
22:41:43 *** wallabra has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
22:41:43 *** wallabra_ is now known as wallabra
22:47:16 <FLHerne> is the function that draws road stops
22:48:17 <FLHerne> hm, I should read the JGR thing to make sure I'm not creating pointless conflicts
22:49:01 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
22:49:18 <JGR> FLHerne: The diff is big enough without renaming things for the sake of it
22:50:18 *** wallabra_ has joined #openttd
22:51:03 <FLHerne> and just spent a while trying to find that code
22:51:24 <FLHerne> and then realised you might have renamed it or moved it or whatever because it's stupid :p
22:53:09 <JGR> I'd only rename it if I changed it to do something different
22:53:57 <JGR> In which case a future merge conflict would provide useful information
22:55:33 *** wallabra has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
22:55:33 *** wallabra_ is now known as wallabra
22:58:52 <FLHerne> yeah, now having read it you've not changed the drawing as much as I imagined
22:58:59 <reldred> andythenorth: more grfs
22:59:33 <reldred> unleash GarryG and Fridaemons true potential, put an end to overlaping newobjects. Achieve world peace in our time.
22:59:40 <reldred> all this and more is possible.
23:00:47 <andythenorth> station tile variants 😛
23:04:15 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
23:04:42 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
23:09:10 *** keikoz has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
23:13:22 <andythenorth> reldred: raise the object limit per grf 😛
23:16:30 *** wallabra has joined #openttd
23:41:50 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC (Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.)
23:46:17 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC ()
23:52:43 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
23:53:10 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
