IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-11-26
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08:08:47 * andythenorth got in the rabbit hole
08:08:57 <andythenorth> wondering how minecraft public servers prevent griefing
08:09:09 <andythenorth> seems to be a pretty comprehensive solution according to the wiki
08:12:28 <andythenorth> "Fortunately for server administrators, the increase in griefing has pushed the creation of numerous anti-griefing tools and techniques."
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08:43:05 <pickpacket> I just spent a long time and millions of pounds building a really long train line going through a number of long tunnels. And then I discovered that I'd built it in the opposite direction of what I'd planned...
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12:36:51 <petern> Have you fediversed yet?
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12:55:45 <reldred> I wouldn't, terrible mistake, terrible place.
13:03:05 <petern> It'll all be defederated soon as the admins argue amongst each other.
13:04:34 <andythenorth> how about Twitter -> irc?
13:05:08 <andythenorth> ok what chunky bevels shall we do today?
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13:21:22 <petern> Hmm, multithreaded landscape generation
13:22:51 <TallTyler> Did your military maxim come from WoT?
13:23:16 <andythenorth> nah, it's supposed to be Napoleon I think
13:23:31 <andythenorth> but I read it in the context of WW2
13:23:45 <andythenorth> there was a really poorly executed British campaign in Norway
13:24:39 <nielsm> is landscape generation really a bottleneck that's worth spending time on?
13:25:14 <petern> Performance no, quality yes.
13:25:21 <andythenorth> the quote was something like "when some bloody idiot has got themselves into an unwinnable situation, don't go and help them just to be a dead hero"
13:25:32 <TallTyler> Honestly I suspect we could get some better anti-griefing tools if more developers played on public servers and therefore had any motivation to improve them instead of writing them off entirely. (I’m in this boat too, to be clear). So…”PRs accepted” is probably how this will be solved, if anything. 😛
13:25:49 <andythenorth> I researched the minecraft situation a bit with an expert
13:26:02 <andythenorth> turns out it's not as good as the minecraft wiki says
13:26:15 <andythenorth> the wiki lists bazillions of tools to prevent griefing
13:26:21 <TallTyler> Wikis are never inaccurate though??
13:26:45 <petern> There's not much in vanilla.
13:26:54 <petern> Step 1) Play with people you like.
13:27:33 <TallTyler> Yeah, that’s usually good enough
13:27:45 <andythenorth> the expert said 'if you go on a public minecraft server and expect there not to be griefing you are oblivious to digital culture'
13:28:06 <TallTyler> And my aversion to public servers is usually “no/bad NewGRFs” more so than trolls
13:28:18 <petern> My own custom minecraft classic 12 years ago had better tools than vanilla minecraft now 🙂
13:28:30 <andythenorth> the expert also said 'lol, public servers are just idiots'
13:28:58 <andythenorth> just passing on wisdom from 12 year olds here
13:29:08 <TallTyler> Wise beyond their years
13:29:22 <andythenorth> "if you don't want griefing, make a private server"
13:33:45 <andythenorth> no griefing when I play
13:34:21 <LordAro> grief and you'll be sent to bed with no dinner?
13:44:13 <andythenorth> so variants is like ... 2 UI patches, and a grf action 0 prop?
13:46:50 <dP> TallTyler: Anti-griefing measured also depend on the server specifics. For example, in city-builder you need to protect claimed town.
13:48:36 <dP> So ideally there would be some way to do anti-griefing as a mod
14:00:22 <andythenorth> 4 kinds of coffee, with a drop down to choose which one
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14:06:28 <Y0yo0> how do i seperate my schedule dispatch between multiple trains?
14:07:21 <Y0yo0> For example it says 8 vehicles needed for this dispatch schedule, so I cloned the first train
14:07:59 <Y0yo0> But now all trains are running on same time, so it didn't sepearted it between multiple trains
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14:09:54 <petern> andythenorth: European or African coffee?
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14:10:45 <andythenorth> petern: depends what I refit it to
14:11:36 <supermop_Home> yirgacheffe or kochere ?
14:12:07 <supermop_Home> washed process or natural?>
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14:25:03 <LordAro> yoyo did not appreciate your coffee talk
14:31:29 <andythenorth> lol how about we call them 'vehicle layouts'? 😛
14:31:34 <andythenorth> like industry layouts
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14:47:08 <petern> Oops, dynamic widths are too dynamic :p
14:50:28 <andythenorth> see, that's the disclosure widget that we need for Chunky Vehicle Variant Layouts
15:03:41 <andythenorth> oof been playing Blitz since 8am
15:20:50 <petern> I should blitz my bike of dirt.
15:21:56 <LordAro> i've been trying to research dynamos
15:23:36 <LordAro> the trouble is i have no idea what i'm doing
15:23:50 <andythenorth> I often have that
15:24:28 <petern> Step 1) Obtain dynamo. Step 2) Get someone else to fit it Step 3) Profit?
15:26:32 <LordAro> the question is which
15:27:03 <petern> Bottle dynamics are shit and nobody uses them any more. Hub dynamos then. Shimano are okay but "unserviceable" (mine is Shimano), SP PD-8 is value for money. SON are the bees knees, but also premium.
15:27:21 <andythenorth> I don't have a dynamo
15:27:26 <andythenorth> I have a very large battery
15:28:04 <petern> SJS Cycles (and probably others) will sell you prebuilt dynamo wheels.
15:29:03 <petern> £200 for the low end to £400 for a SON.
15:30:12 <LordAro> mm, SON is the one recommended by Mason
15:30:44 <petern> Also there's the lights. Rear dynamo lights are pretty cheap and come with a variety of fitment places. I've got a B&M toplight that fits to the pannier rack.
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15:31:30 <petern> Front dynamos are more expensive, as they have regulator circuitry for both front & rear, and some of them can have a USB port as well, though probably not worth the expense unless you are proper touring.
15:32:27 <LordAro> by "Front dynamos" you mean the light?
15:32:44 <petern> A lot of this stuff is German or built to German standards are they are hot on dynamo lights there, so although lights may not seem very bright, they will be StVZO compliant, therefore a good non-dazzling beam.
15:32:48 <petern> Oops, yes, front lights.
15:33:23 <LordAro> the idea is to get a "full set", so lights + usb charging capability
15:33:45 <petern> Spa Cycles are also good for dynamo stuff.
15:35:18 <LordAro> i was also wondering about getting a Hunt dynamo wheel (i.e. so it matches), but eesh, £500
15:37:09 <LordAro> I'm also not sure about how the wires are routed - the front fork has an additional hole in it so a wire could be routed through to the dynamo, but there's no equivalent on the top tube, so if i were to route it through the frame, it'd have to follow the gear/brake cables (still doable) all the way to the rear corner and then back up towards the seat again
15:37:45 <LordAro> or I suppose I could just attach the wire to the frame, but ugly :(
15:39:23 <petern> Mine goes inside the down tube and pops out just in front of the BB, beyond that it's external. It uses to go up inside the mudguard, and I rerouted it along the frame and around the rack when the mudguard snapped (someone rear ended me!)
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15:39:44 <petern> On my forks it runs up the outside.
15:40:08 <petern> But my touring bike is pretty traditional, all external cabling etc.
15:40:16 <LordAro> and zip ties to actually attach the wire to the frame?
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15:41:36 <petern> Where I did it, yes 🙂 There's a special trunking tape for the front.
15:47:17 <petern> Not that special, just designed to hold the cable properly.
15:47:27 <petern> Also I shouldnt've looked at that site, now I want a new bike :p
15:58:37 <LordAro> ok, that's been a big help, thanks :)
16:37:35 <petern> That's a lot of people on voice chat.
16:40:08 <andythenorth> are they watching football together?
16:47:52 <petern> There's an obnoxious music bot playing some very loud music.
16:48:09 <petern> This dev chat is a lot quieter 😄
16:48:31 <andythenorth> I thought this was tanks chat
16:51:57 <petern> So the exceptions thrown by squirrel are kinda annoying.
16:54:49 <TallTyler> I wish I could graph today instead of doing real job UI design
16:55:23 <TallTyler> I’m liking Blazor so much more than React though
16:55:36 <michi_cc[d]> Hmm, I think it's high time to do beta 2 this weekend. Are there any outstanding feature-ish things that folks still want?
16:56:30 <michi_cc[d]> Any bugfix stuff can obviously still come after the beta, but we might have put in enough broken features :p
16:56:50 <TallTyler> Scriptable league tables? It’s in the milestone
16:57:56 <andythenorth> vehicle variants? 😛
16:57:59 <michi_cc[d]> LordAro: You approved that, any reason for not hitting merge? Otherwise I'll be the "bad" guy.
16:58:10 <LordAro> michi_cc[d]: wanted someone else to look at it
16:58:36 <LordAro> ~so then they are the bad guy~
17:08:16 <michi_cc[d]> There's also #10003 and #10004 with approvals, but frosch had reservations on them and I don't like to ignore that.
17:23:50 <dP> frosch comments are kinda weird I don't quite understand them
17:23:59 <TallTyler> I broke no houses on half-tile roads
17:24:39 <dP> Yeah, I'll need to take another look at 10003 because of that
17:25:44 <TallTyler> And not stopping growth makes me wonder about a possible infinite loop with a town that’s hemmed in by water or houses and will never succeed at growing. I haven’t taken the time to understand town growth well enough to know yet.
17:29:35 <dP> Growth is never infinite, GROWTH_SEARCH_STOPPED just aborts it prematurely
17:31:45 <petern> Basically will the changes result in any strange growth behaviour?
17:32:06 <michi_cc[d]> TallTyler: Some teaching time 😄 (no need to do it right now, Discord has scrollback for later) for how to do a release.
17:32:24 <michi_cc[d]> Step 1: Create changelog PR (on master for beta, on branch for real release), get approval and merge.
17:33:14 <petern> I should crack on with fixes ;P
17:34:08 <michi_cc[d]> Step 2b: Make PR from this. Put ideas for other socials like Forum/Discord/Twitter/Reddit on there. Make suggestion for Steam to make TB happy.
17:34:34 <michi_cc[d]> Step 2c: Check website post (preview link via checks page) and mke corrections (we usually just use the GitHub web interface for this and squash the result later).
17:35:11 <glx[d]> michi_cc[d]: if someone with correct rights could pin this
17:35:42 <michi_cc[d]> Step 4: Merge website PR.
17:36:33 <michi_cc[d]> Step 6: Tag/create website release.
17:36:50 <michi_cc[d]> Step 7: Announce on other socials after website is updated.
17:37:29 <michi_cc[d]> Not everbody can do Twitter and Reddit, and I'm not sure if anybody besides TB can do Steam and GOG.
17:38:21 <michi_cc[d]> I'll happily do Twitter/Reddit if I'm around.
17:39:38 <michi_cc[d]> Bug TB if something breaks or stalls on the way 🙂
17:40:17 <michi_cc[d]> I think that is all, but I might have forgotten some detail that I do unconsiusly.
17:40:43 <TallTyler> Thanks for the detailed instructions 🙏
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17:52:25 <dP> petern: As I said in the pr it only affects two specific cases, everything else just returns before that
17:52:59 <dP> Though looking at it now it should probably just return as well
17:53:40 <dP> As it won't pass rcmd == ROAD_NONE anyway
17:54:01 <petern> Yes, two specific cases in isolation. Frosch's comment is about what effects changing conditions might cause.
17:55:31 <dP> Are you talking about 10003 or 10004?
17:57:05 <petern> You can test it by starting a game with the same seed before & after the changes, and demonstrating what happens after many years of town growth.
17:57:49 <dP> Well, I kinda did that in 10004
17:59:38 <petern> 100k ticks is what, 3.7 years?
18:00:06 <petern> I don't know what the coloured squares mean
18:01:22 <dP> Coloured squares don't matter if you only want to see changes
18:01:26 <petern> Okay, so so 4885 vs 3540 is a big change.
18:01:55 <petern> So by changing 1 little thing in town growth, you have altered the population of a city.
18:02:19 <dP> It's a big change because those stations are killing growth
18:03:51 <petern> What happens with a non 2x2 grid layout?
18:04:02 <petern> Those layouts are boring.
18:05:22 <TallTyler> petern: To be fair that’s sort of the idea
18:05:49 <dP> It's a grid layout bug, so nothing should happen to non grid layouts
18:06:11 <petern> I assume it shouldn't too, but what does happen.
18:08:04 <petern> TallTyler: if it increases town growth for no reason other than increasing town growth then it's a problem. If it brings town growth in line with, say, the random road layout, than that easier to justify and also to explain.
18:09:14 <petern> Using "problem" loosely here.
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18:13:47 <dP> It doesn't increase anything, just removes the impact of stations on town growth
18:15:02 <TallTyler> That seems like a fix to me, because stations on roads shouldn’t reduce growth
18:16:20 <TallTyler> I still wonder if an `if (IsRoadStation()) return;` wouldn’t be better to handle the case explicitly
18:17:47 <TallTyler> And would probably alleviate frosch’s concern too 🙂
18:18:19 <petern> dP: but subject of #10004 doesn't say that.
18:19:05 <petern> In your screenshot it clearly HAS increased how much the town has grown, so saying it doesn't increase anything isn't true.
18:20:06 <TallTyler> The real test should be against a city without drive through road stops on junctions
18:20:07 <petern> And I'm not arguing against it, just thinking of how better to explain the change that answers frosch's concern.
18:20:24 <dP> petern: Because before that change stations decreased growth
18:20:26 <petern> Yes, tests against different city layouts etc.
18:24:19 <petern> dP: That's seems like semantics that isn't relevant. Your change causes town growth to be increased. Without your change, nothing is decreased or increased, because it's just as it is.
18:27:15 <dP> petern: Before my changes with enough stations you can stop town from growing
18:27:52 <petern> Yes, but that isn't a decrease, that is just how the game behaves.
18:27:58 <TallTyler> That would be useful to explain in the PR or in an Issue which the PR can fix
18:28:12 <TallTyler> Because that would be a bug, IMO
18:28:31 <dP> Well, I thought I explaned it
18:28:42 <petern> Does that comment make sense?
18:31:46 <dP> kind of, though I'm pretty sure grids and randoms grow differently anyway
18:32:35 <petern> Yes, but the question is do stations and one-way roads affect random layout towns in the same way?
18:33:31 <dP> ah, yeah, they only affect grids iirc
18:33:49 <dP> not one-way roads btw, cusstom road types
18:45:48 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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19:29:56 <andythenorth> I need to stop playing Blitz
20:22:59 <andythenorth> hmm let's patch variants
20:23:09 <andythenorth> all grf authors are against it except me
20:23:17 <andythenorth> they didn't want to waste IDs
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20:45:13 <petern> Yes we are running out of IDs.
20:54:01 <andythenorth> you fixed the flag
21:04:17 <TallTyler> The vehicle ID limit is 65,535 per GRF. How can that possibly be a problem?
21:07:08 <petern> The IDs within each NewGRF don't conflict with other NewGRFs.
21:07:26 <TallTyler> Do I want to know if players can still disable the engine pool in the config file? 😛
21:10:04 <petern> And it's forced off for old savegames.
21:14:03 <andythenorth> so no problem with variants then 😄
21:14:09 <andythenorth> just loads of IDs
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21:18:54 <CplBurdenR3294> I seem to recall there being an issue once because someone had earmarked an entire block of IDs for themselves, more than they would ever feasibly use, and refused steadfastly to relinquish them, so any game where you tried to use their GRFs with others that happened to stray on that willy shrinkingly huge set of IDs would trigger the "oops there's an ID conflict" thingy and disable the other persons GRFs
21:19:55 <petern> And they destroyed their NewGRFs and then rage quit.
21:20:26 <petern> Shame really, the stations were quite nice.
21:21:37 <petern> I do prefer the automatically nice layout stations. Modular is flexible but just annoying to place.
21:22:21 <CplBurdenR3294> Aye, Canada set or something if memory serves? It was a while back
21:26:25 <CplBurdenR3294> Nah, I'd say the one who was being unreasonable over the massive number of IDs they'd reserved and would never use was the cause 🙂
21:28:19 <glx[d]> petern: CHIPS magic tiles
21:28:45 <CplBurdenR3294> I do like the CHIPS stations. It's been ages since I booted up my big UK game *ponders*
21:29:32 <glx[d]> auto buffers, auto buildings, auto vehicles, all depends on relative position and track configuration
21:32:22 <CplBurdenR3294> So, question. Let me check when my last save was.... ooh oddly, 30th November 2019. Running the JGR patchpack (jgrpp-0.26.1 if the log is to be believed)
21:32:22 <CplBurdenR3294> So, since that point, have their been any big changes, big breakthroughs in OpenTTD? I know between my last break and 2019, PBS came in along with NML, and a bunch of other fun tweaks (those massive airports, with custom airports on the horizon I believe)
21:34:26 <petern> Nah it's all exactly the same.
21:34:52 <andythenorth> chunkier bevels?
21:35:00 <andythenorth> oh and it's a shitload faster
21:35:19 <glx[d]> no you changed computer 😉
21:37:55 <CplBurdenR3294> I did see someone with a screenshot of a 16k x 4x map
21:38:17 <CplBurdenR3294> I think my UK map was 2k by 4k
21:38:23 <CplBurdenR3294> Yeah I run JGR
21:38:35 <andythenorth> well I changed computer
21:38:36 <CplBurdenR3294> but back in 2019 it couldn't handle maps that big, to my knowledge
21:38:40 <andythenorth> but also it was a shitload faster
21:38:47 <CplBurdenR3294> might have just been my PC though to be fair
21:39:39 <CplBurdenR3294> So, there's been code optimisation, and you mention some changes to bevels? I mean code optimisation isn't a bad thing. Unsung element of game design
21:40:06 <petern> It still can't handle maps that big, it'll run like treacle
21:40:28 <petern> Although JGRPP does have some optimisations I think.
21:40:35 <CplBurdenR3294> Yes my 2k by 4k map was running baaad by 1995 and a very full game world
21:40:58 <CplBurdenR3294> hence my surprise at such a ginormously big map being shown
21:42:33 <JGR> There are changelogs which list the things added with each release
21:43:21 <JGR> May take a bit of scrolling from 0.26.1
21:45:16 <CplBurdenR3294> Righto, thanks 🙂
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21:46:05 <CplBurdenR3294> I am already going to go ahead and assume that from a game way back on 0.26.1, I won't be able to load that in the current JGR patchpack release
21:46:26 <JGR> No, your save should load fine
21:46:38 <FLHerne> RoadTypes were late 2019
21:46:47 <FLHerne> they're like multiple rail types but for roads
21:47:11 <petern> And just as pointless, if not more.
21:47:17 <CplBurdenR3294> And ooh yes I recall Roadtypes being talked about
21:47:41 <FLHerne> that's the only large gameplay feature I can think of
21:47:58 <FLHerne> petern: it's a game, the whole thing is pointless :p
21:48:26 <FLHerne> they make my log-hauling roads not look stupid, which is a Good Feature
21:48:51 <FLHerne> and my steam trams can not have pointless catenary
21:52:10 <CplBurdenR3294> That's a nice touch. Same with my industrial tramways then. Me gusta
22:16:10 <CplBurdenR3294> I am liking the realistic braking setting, and the public roads. Both excellent additions by the sounds of it.
22:49:49 <FLHerne> I feel like upstream that ought to be a WorldScript or something
22:50:09 <FLHerne> but pathfinding in OTTD Squirrel is so painfully slow :-(
22:55:53 <petern> Those PRs are a bit of a pain to follow, they are not tidied up in the same way that vanilla enforces.
22:56:28 <andythenorth> played since 8am
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