IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-05-29
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09:07:41 <TrueBrain> right .. back to the: how to edit a tile, issue .. eeeuuuhhhhhhhhhh
09:07:53 <TrueBrain> guess I just reuse the quick-hack I already had in place, and leave it at that for now
09:16:52 <andythenorth> 'leave it at that for now' is the essence of grf :P
09:17:19 <TrueBrain> it is the realisation I can spend weeks on making this perfect, and still have nothing working :P
09:17:27 <TrueBrain> sometimes it is better to have something, not exactly what you would like it to be
09:20:07 * andythenorth refactoring graphics generators
09:20:36 <andythenorth> because this is obviously a sign of bad smell
09:20:37 <andythenorth> if self.consist.gestalt_graphics.add_masked_overlay and self.consist.gestalt_graphics.__class__.__name__ is not "GestaltGraphicsAutomobilesTransporter":
09:20:50 <andythenorth> "checking classes by name is always fine"
09:21:14 <andythenorth> like duck typing had never been invented
09:23:17 <dwfreed> or even inheritance in general
09:33:55 <TrueBrain> right .. ported industry tiles to the new TrueGRF UI .. now all that is left is adding tiles/industries/cargoes, and deleting them
09:40:16 <TrueBrain> always the question .. where to add "add industry" .. :D
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09:45:02 <TrueBrain> yeah, I always have trouble finding a good place .. but I put it in the tree for now
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10:41:13 <TrueBrain> if I add a new industry, my GRF generation times goes from 1s to 10+ seconds
10:41:38 <TrueBrain> hmm, no, wait, this might be mapgen
10:41:57 <TrueBrain> what the actual fuck .. lol
10:43:33 <andythenorth> just one new industry?
10:44:16 <TrueBrain> I ... have a hard time understanding why it takes so long to generate this industry .. it doesn't even have tiles :P
10:45:13 <andythenorth> does it do anything recursive, like check properties of other industries?
10:45:58 <TrueBrain> ah, it is OpenTTD .. not my codegen
10:46:15 <TrueBrain> or something between those two ..
10:46:17 <TrueBrain> this is annoying :D
10:47:53 <TrueBrain> ah, yes, OpenTTD doesn't really like an industry without tiles, as it turns out
10:48:00 <TrueBrain> no clue what it starts doing in those cases
10:48:06 <TrueBrain> but .. it takes him 5 seconds to access the GRF
10:48:15 <TrueBrain> where normally it is done in 160ms
10:49:00 <TrueBrain> I don't have debug info, so no clue what function exactly is being a pita
10:49:59 <TrueBrain> guess I should add that you can add tiles, and see if that changes anything
10:50:36 <Eddi|zuHause> is it trying to generate industries?
10:50:53 <TrueBrain> I only reload the NewGRF
10:52:11 <TrueBrain> indeed, adding a tile to the industry fixes the issue
10:52:14 <TrueBrain> do I want to know? :D
10:52:55 <TrueBrain> basically I do not render any action1 industry tiles for that industry
10:53:33 <TrueBrain> owh, I don't even do action0 industry tiles
10:53:37 <TrueBrain> basically, I do not even load a layout
10:54:02 <TrueBrain> no, that is not true .. the layout has all empty tiles
10:54:18 <TrueBrain> this shit is just funny :D Owh well .. for now I just fix it somehow :P
11:06:22 <nielsm> maybe openttd should discard (and warn about) GRF industry layouts with zero real tiles, and fail GRF industries with zero valid layouts
11:09:32 <TrueBrain> I have no clue what it currently is doing, besides burning CPU :D
11:10:06 <nielsm> maybe it tries all locations on the map to find somewhere the industry places a non-zero number of tiles
11:10:53 <andythenorth> or it's checking for acceptance
11:17:40 * andythenorth backs away from the automation
11:17:55 <nielsm> hmm no reading the industry creation code, it doesn't look like it should fail on empty industry layouts
11:17:57 <andythenorth> I don't need to produce an algorithm to optimally recolour dice sprites in the buy menu
11:18:17 <nielsm> regardless, you'd end up with an industry that can't produce anything, can't accept anything, and isn't clickable on the map
11:18:25 <nielsm> which is rather undesirable
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11:22:43 <nielsm> yeah... the newgrf loading code also doesn't check for empty layouts
11:23:04 <nielsm> it only checks for layouts with duplicate tiles
11:23:15 <nielsm> (two tiles at same coordinate)
11:24:19 <TrueBrain> Again, I am not generating a map .. just reloading the NewGRF :)
11:24:41 <TrueBrain> So dunno why that takes 5s
11:24:59 <TrueBrain> It has a layout with an empty tile
11:26:24 <nielsm> I forget, are you on windows with visual studio?
11:27:15 <nielsm> I used the profiler there recently, it's pretty easy to just capture a bit of data and then get a report on where the CPU time was spent
11:28:40 <TrueBrain> No, emscripten, and without debug symbols .. so I just see a single function being really busy
11:29:53 * andythenorth wonders if it's the cargo diagram :P
11:30:19 <andythenorth> guessing isn't debugging though
11:42:49 <TrueBrain> doesn't sound related to tiles :P
11:42:59 <TrueBrain> problem exists when the layout has all empty tiles
11:43:04 <TrueBrain> the problem is away when I add 1 tile
11:47:15 * andythenorth now reading industry_cmd.cpp
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12:01:09 <glx> they were already present
12:01:34 <frosch123> they are just a nml implementation detail
12:02:13 * andythenorth didn't want to do more wiki formatting
12:02:56 <frosch123> also nml printing a warning and suggestion how to upgrade the old constants to the new ones is the best option in all cases
12:03:22 <frosch123> also i am not sure whether there is a single newgrf using those constants :p
12:03:28 <andythenorth> those nml changes are of no use
12:03:35 <frosch123> do firs industries use sounds?
12:03:47 <andythenorth> no, but Road Hog and Unsinkable Sam do
12:04:15 <glx> yeah it's more friendly, like when I reenabled old production syntax with a warning
12:04:16 <frosch123> do vehicles use those constants? i think not
12:04:51 <frosch123> i think they are industry/house/object only
12:04:56 <frosch123> things with animation state
12:05:22 <andythenorth> seems Road Hog was using SOUND_FACTORY_WHISTLE
12:06:46 <glx> hey you could use industry cow sound for cattle wagon
12:08:19 <frosch123> except the new names just call them farm sound 1/2/3, without being specific about animals or machines :)
12:09:17 <andythenorth> so how do I add a dropdown list of numbers to company colour GUIs?
12:09:37 <andythenorth> in addition to company colour 1 and 2
12:09:42 <glx> like anyone else, copy paste existing code :)
12:11:51 <andythenorth> dunno whether to write a spec, or just try patching :P
12:13:19 <Samu> some findings: bankrupted company value is not the value it has right now, it's an "outdated value". Also the purchase of such company involves selling shares which skew the calculations on companies that have shares on each other. I'm unsure yet, but I have a feeling something doesn't add up correctly in the end
12:13:56 <Samu> shares are now inflating company values
12:17:45 <Samu> i could have owned 75% shares when the value of the bankrupted company was offered to purchase
12:18:02 <Samu> but before I buy it, I can sell the shares
12:19:14 <Samu> if that company had also shares on mine, it would have now inflated value
12:19:26 <Samu> so i buy it for cheaper than it should
12:20:45 <andythenorth> but we probably already know how to filter vehicles by those types :P
12:22:53 <Samu> not only i would gain money for selling shares, but i would also buy it according to its "outdated value" which is cheaper than the now current value, which inflated the bankrupted company's value cus it also had shares on mine
12:23:34 <glx> shares are autosold on buyout
12:25:11 <Samu> okay, without graphs or an excel I can't visualize this
12:27:00 <Samu> ah no, selling shares now devaluates company value
12:27:15 <Samu> this became super complex!
12:28:24 <andythenorth> it's quite realism
12:32:21 <TrueBrain> right, okay, new industries now start with a single valid tile, solving my issue .. now for deleting industries ... :D
12:43:18 <Samu> as for the including_loan, i'm unsure how to fix this
12:43:34 <Samu> i'll leave that to someone else
12:44:50 <glx> max was here for a reason
12:48:10 <Samu> the minimum value is still 1
13:00:34 <TrueBrain> right ... now only adding/removing of tiles left .. and I am just going to skip removing of tiles, as they auto-remove on reload .. and just make adding tiles work ... ALMOST there .. I think :P
13:24:13 * andythenorth still trying to figure out how we can do vehicle colour schemes
13:24:32 <andythenorth> liveries / patterns / camos / skins whatever you want to call them :P
13:28:07 <peter1138> You draw pixels in CC1 and CC2
13:31:27 <TrueBrain> hihi, for every layout that has no active tiles, it takes OpenTTD 5 seconds .. so if I add 20 layouts with no tiles
13:31:31 <TrueBrain> it takes 100 seconds :P
13:32:10 <TrueBrain> not sure what it is doing, but it isn't good :)
13:37:13 <andythenorth> peter1138 that is a route yes :P
13:46:19 <frosch123> TrueBrain: when does it take 5 seconds?
13:46:38 <TrueBrain> with any industry with an empty layout
13:46:59 <frosch123> but with some industries with some valid layout?
13:47:16 <TrueBrain> for every layout I give OpenTTD without any tiles in it
13:47:26 <TrueBrain> as soon as I add a valid tile, it all works as expected
13:48:15 <TrueBrain> in more detail, I push an action0 industry layout, that consists of only \x00\x80
13:48:37 <TrueBrain> (so literally no tiles are defined in the layout)
13:50:33 <frosch123> for (size_t i = 0; i < size - 1; i++) { <- there are your 5 seconds :)
13:50:52 <TrueBrain> so it underflows? :P
13:51:16 <TrueBrain> that is hilarious :D
13:51:22 <frosch123> even size_t, so it scans your whole memory?
13:51:33 <frosch123> on a normal machine i would expect it to segfault
13:51:33 <TrueBrain> can I file a bug-report? :P
13:52:24 <frosch123> ValidateIndustryLayout() in newgrf.cpp:3377 btw
13:52:43 <frosch123> it is supposed to check for duplicate positions
13:53:04 <glx> let's add if (size == 0) return false; before the loop ?
13:53:40 <glx> an empty layout can't be valid
13:53:41 <frosch123> yeah, best to consider them invalid layouts
13:53:52 <nielsm> it also needs to check for the watertilecheck
13:54:03 <nielsm> I have a patch ready I think
13:54:19 <frosch123> ok, i won't patch myself then
13:59:16 <frosch123> ah, the condition in the inner loop is always false, so it does not segfault
13:59:17 <TrueBrain> so at least TrueGRF helped in finding bugs .. that is the .. 3rd now? :P
13:59:23 <frosch123> it just counts from 1 to 2^64
13:59:34 <TrueBrain> happy to know that takes ~5 seconds on WASM :P
14:00:33 <frosch123> basically "any(i < 0 for i in range(0, 2**64-1))"
14:01:50 <frosch123> wasm is a lot faster than python with that :p
14:02:05 <TrueBrain> yeah, I am kinda surprised honestly
14:02:32 <frosch123> i only gave 2**32 to python, and it's still not done :p
14:04:22 <frosch123> nielsm: also use that constant in line 3536 ?
14:05:06 <nielsm> hmm yeah probably... maybe
14:05:42 <nielsm> those tiles are the only ones that are allowed to have negative coordinates
14:06:36 <frosch123> only in that case the position is cast to int8, the default case is uint8
14:13:28 <nielsm> TrueBrain: can you pull the patch into your wasm build and check it fixes the hang?
14:13:39 <TrueBrain> not easily, but will see if I can manage that tonight
14:13:43 <TrueBrain> I need to backport it to the 12-branch
14:13:59 <TrueBrain> and figure out how to build OpenTTD again via emscripten .. has been a while :D
14:24:26 <wallabra> The cool thing about cargodist is you can make two completely separate transportation networks, and then do one big link between them. :O
14:28:24 <TrueBrain> https://dev.truegrf.pages.dev/ <- I think it is now at the same level of functionality as the old UI :D And I have a very long wishlist of stuff I want to change now .. lol .. I should write them down :P
14:30:02 <TrueBrain> it is a lot quicker than the old UI
14:30:10 <TrueBrain> and a lot less buggy, UI-wise
14:30:19 <TrueBrain> right, compiling OpenTTD .. eeuuhhhh
14:30:52 <glx> <TrueBrain> and figure out how to build OpenTTD again via emscripten .. has been a while :D <-- easy, just check a workflow :)
14:31:02 <TrueBrain> yeah, and I left a README .. but still
14:32:20 <TrueBrain> something about LZMA ..
14:34:55 <TrueBrain> couldn't wait a few more minutes I see :P
14:35:38 <TrueBrain> hmm .. seems ideally I should add -g4
14:35:42 <TrueBrain> that way I get a source-map
14:35:50 <TrueBrain> so the browser can tell me exactly what function is being a bad boy
14:37:49 <TrueBrain> let's check how big of a file that gives
14:44:13 <TrueBrain> 3700 lines of code is TrueGRF, the HTML part
14:44:24 <TrueBrain> 3350 lines of code is TrueGRF, the Rust part
14:44:28 <TrueBrain> this is not a small project anymore :P
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14:49:50 <TrueBrain> from 7.4MB to 8.2MB
14:49:55 <TrueBrain> but that does give me debug information
14:50:01 <wallabra> your face is a small project
14:50:01 <TrueBrain> also, a 5.2MB of mapping information
14:50:25 <TrueBrain> wallabra: please don't be "that guy".
14:50:44 <wallabra> which means it's pretty enough without needing any effort!
14:50:47 <TrueBrain> it is not as funny as you think it is
14:52:20 <TrueBrain> w00p, I can now look into OpenTTD to see what it is actually doing :D Okay, let's see if nielsm did well :D
14:52:51 <glx> you can put breakpoints in wasm ?
14:52:56 <TrueBrain> nielsm: yup, solves it (not really a surprise ofc, but good to know :D)
14:53:05 <TrueBrain> glx: hmm .. I think so ... lets try!
14:55:56 <TrueBrain> it cannot access the source files ofc, which it doesn't really like :D
14:56:27 <LordAro> TrueBrain: your face is not as funny as you think it is
14:56:43 <TrueBrain> so tempted ............
14:57:16 <wallabra> does WASM have something like sourcemaps?
15:00:08 <TrueBrain> glx: you actually can :D
15:00:56 <TrueBrain> just the local variables are not resolved
15:01:02 <TrueBrain> so you see that some variable has some value, just not which :D
15:04:49 <TrueBrain> how to fake the revision .. hmm .. I always forget :P
15:06:43 <TrueBrain> just modifying the generated file seems to work, fine :D
15:07:10 <Eddi|zuHause> there used to be a ./configure option for that
15:16:25 <TrueBrain> I still like the animated title screen
15:16:29 <TrueBrain> much more interesting :D
15:22:17 <Samu> CmdSellShareInCompany is buggy for company takeover. How do I explain...
15:24:34 <Samu> adding money/removing money due to selling of shares should only be done after all companyvalue calculations are done
15:25:30 <glx> don't focus on something that rarely happens :)
15:26:49 <nielsm> can we just remove shares buying/selling from the game?
15:31:48 <Eddi|zuHause> shares could be a minigame that has no effect on the real gameplay
15:33:42 <nielsm> leave in buyout-offers for bankrupt companies, like in TTO, but the level of "value" tracking in the game just doesn't work for buying part of a company
15:36:08 <nielsm> I don't remember how the value is calculated now, but maybe change it to be "how much money would be left if you sold all vehicles right now, and took a bulldozer to every company-owned tile"
15:37:25 * wallabra buys shares of nielsm
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16:15:40 <wallabra> Fast-forwarding doesn't seem to be doing anything anymore :<
16:18:35 <wallabra> OpenTTD is only using one core...
16:18:39 <wallabra> I'm using the jgrpp branch.
16:19:01 <wallabra> Well I think it's only one core because it stays at about 30% usage. This is a dual-core but four-threaded CPU.;
16:20:27 <glx> if FF has no effect then it may have hard time to run at normal speed
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16:43:46 <glx> limit for normal speed is 30ms/loop
16:44:58 <glx> and you can see the map itself takes half of that time
16:46:37 <wallabra> it's a bit better when I stop the music
16:47:03 <wallabra> glx, I have a few NewGRFs and a town growth gamescript going on
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16:55:09 <andythenorth> so 3rd company colour?
16:55:26 <andythenorth> plenty of spare pink in the DOS palette
16:55:48 <nielsm> wallabra: yeah I think ECS industries can take very long time to handle their graphics, which can explain why the world ticks take so much time
16:57:43 <nielsm> and yes they do graphics updates even when you're not looking at them, because unfortunately, due to the way things are designed, sometimes, those updates can affect other things too and you don't want industries to behave different depending on whether you're looking or not!
16:59:55 <andythenorth> I think FIRS has the same issue :P
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17:03:46 <TrueBrain> and where does 4CC go?
17:06:02 <andythenorth> 3CC is all anybody will ever need
17:06:33 <andythenorth> lol the 2nd hard drive we bought for our business was 4GB
17:06:38 <andythenorth> we thought we'd never fill it
17:09:07 <andythenorth> also 3CC wouldn't actually be used as 3CC really
17:09:11 <andythenorth> it would be 'flavour'
17:09:17 <andythenorth> so 'red' train can go faster
17:16:27 <frosch123> most color cycles are aligned at 8
17:16:35 <frosch123> so 216-223 would fit better
17:17:03 <frosch123> but I still have not heard about someone else interested in more cc options :p
17:17:38 <Rubidium> frosch123: maybe add macro transactions, so people can use their CC ;)
17:18:49 <frosch123> oh, yes, always use BCC instead of CC when mailing newsletters
17:40:25 <andythenorth> I would only abuse 3CC
17:41:19 <andythenorth> maybe I should give in and use the livery callback :P
17:41:33 <andythenorth> all the active grf devs seem to
17:41:38 <andythenorth> I'm just a hold out
18:19:43 <peter1138> Go with overlays -- unlimited CC
18:26:54 <andythenorth> 32bit company colours
18:28:53 <andythenorth> I really don't understand the livery callback
18:28:58 <andythenorth> trying to use it :P
18:29:34 <andythenorth> I think it's actually broken
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18:48:36 <frosch123> there is no point in using the livery callback when using sprite stacks
18:48:52 <frosch123> sprite stacks can do everything, which livery callback can do
18:49:29 <frosch123> oh, with livery callback you mean cargo subtypes, lol
18:49:37 <frosch123> well, ignore what i said then :)
18:50:51 <frosch123> do the mail liveries remain, if you set capacity to 1?
18:51:02 <frosch123> there may be some issue with the capacity zero thing
18:53:43 <frosch123> ah, the gui shows the intersection of subtypes, not the union
18:53:59 <frosch123> so if the wagons are refittable to mail, they will hide the subtypes which only the engine has
18:54:16 <frosch123> maybe it should display the union instead?
18:54:32 <Eddi|zuHause> you can select subsets of vehicles in the refit gui
18:54:48 <frosch123> yes, but andy forgets that
18:54:55 <frosch123> so no point in reminding
18:55:05 <Eddi|zuHause> is andy really the target audience we should design the gui for? :p
18:55:18 <TrueBrain> who else are we designing UIs for?
18:55:23 <TrueBrain> we suck at it either way :P
18:56:20 <TrueBrain> did not know you had these subtypes when refitting
18:56:25 <TrueBrain> has that always been in the game? :P
18:56:37 <TrueBrain> (clearly not, but that is not what I mean, ofc)
18:56:41 <frosch123> probably not when truelight was around
18:56:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the DBSetXL has them. that was 2005
18:57:06 <frosch123> the tree gui is by me
18:57:11 <frosch123> probably 2010 or so
18:57:21 <TrueBrain> never knew it existed :P
18:57:30 <frosch123> previously it was a all-expanded list
18:57:47 <TrueBrain> honestly, I never got passed the basic refit, and even that .. I rarely used
18:57:53 <frosch123> which was not nice for combinatorical reasons
18:58:34 <TrueBrain> lol, now reading Steam forum posts ... so the other day for an hour of 4 or so the in-game services were not working .. someone like: OMG IT HAS BEEN DOWN ALL DAY ARENT THE DEVELOPERS PAYING ATTENTION
18:58:39 <TrueBrain> like .. 4 hours .. all day .. but what-ever
18:58:51 <TrueBrain> other people instantly: dude, relax, these are volunteers .. wait till they get back home from their job
18:58:57 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: even the german forum had a post about that
18:59:00 <frosch123> even the german forums noticed, and they are mostly dead
18:59:35 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that gets a post like once a week at best...
18:59:36 <frosch123> it must have been prime time during work in home-office
18:59:56 <frosch123> oh no, ottd is offline, now i have to work, or so
19:00:00 <TrueBrain> it was just cute how quickly people reacted with basically a: fuck off with this attitude, message :)
19:00:28 <frosch123> yeah, recent reviews are down to 93% :p
19:01:12 <TrueBrain> still amazed how positively people review the game
19:01:19 <TrueBrain> also still amazed how many people play daily on Steam
19:06:08 <frosch123> yeah, whenever train games come up in some random stream i watch. people discuss how TTD set a high bar 20 years ago, and why still noone has topped it
19:06:42 <frosch123> then it usually derails into people loving/hating transport fever
19:09:28 <frosch123> haha, for some reason one of the recent reviews has a "product receied for free" disclaimer
19:09:48 <TrueBrain> yeah, some reviews have that, others do not
19:10:15 <TrueBrain> in the backend too I see some people "got the product for free"
19:10:25 <TrueBrain> seems you can claim stuff in different ways in Steam or what-ever
19:10:35 <frosch123> maybe you can gift ottd
19:10:52 <TrueBrain> that would be a logical reason for this, yes
19:11:12 <frosch123> may be an easy option to share a download link with your friends
19:11:27 <frosch123> just gift them the game, instead of exchaning links
19:12:01 <frosch123> anyway, i hate comparisons with "sim city"
19:12:17 <frosch123> i think noone who compares anything with sim city ever played sim city
19:12:48 <frosch123> i can't express how much sc2 casters annoy me, when they call walls "sim city"
19:13:06 <TrueBrain> "bomb your friend's bus route simulator '95" <- some reviews are funny :D
19:13:29 <frosch123> negative reviews are also rated funny
19:13:40 <frosch123> not sure which audience actually rates reviws
19:13:52 <TrueBrain> "you need to have a phd in architecture to play this game casually" <- not false
19:14:14 <TrueBrain> "Huge learning curve - too much. I am sure it's fun but I shouldn't need a whiteboard and 15 years of being a train engineer to remotely understand how to make train go in circle"
19:14:25 <TrueBrain> ha, whiteboard .. that is something to worry about indeed
19:15:06 <TrueBrain> Deep in a negative review, cons: "Quality of life; No pausing with the spacebar, and some"
19:15:18 <TrueBrain> yes, pausing has to be done by spacebar, otherwise the game is unplayable :P
19:15:50 <frosch123> well, it's not wrong. tools with 90's shortcuts are annoying
19:16:00 <nielsm> well yes, modern keyboards try to pretend the F-keys are not for applications but for the OS/hardware manufacturer
19:16:01 <frosch123> people are used to WASD scrolling
19:16:29 <frosch123> msvc offering shortcut profiles for msc++6 is ridicuouls
19:16:34 <nielsm> also those crazy "40%" keyboards some people use
19:18:51 <frosch123> i keep hearing about people playing ottd on android while commuting
19:19:07 <TrueBrain> I cannot believe that to be true, I just still reject that reality completely
19:19:24 <frosch123> i still don't understand how they can endure playing ottd without mouse
19:20:28 <frosch123> TrueBrain: reject what? people commuting? fair, people were actually taking about how they used to play it when they were still commuting
19:20:53 <TrueBrain> no, I am also stuck on the "no mouse" part :P
19:21:02 <TrueBrain> I just don't believe they actually play OpenTTD
19:21:05 <TrueBrain> I think it is actually another game
19:21:39 <frosch123> i watched the ottd tutorials of the android version
19:22:00 <frosch123> they are very patient with removing misbuilt tracks
19:22:24 <frosch123> basically every action is: built 20 tracks, remove 1, build 20 track, remove 2
19:22:33 <TrueBrain> could use a better UI :P
19:23:13 <frosch123> jgrpp has the polyline thing from adf (originally), but i don't think the android version has that
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19:41:02 <andythenorth> so I have to pick individual vehicles for setting livery?
19:42:07 <frosch123> check vehicle_gui.cpp:578-587
19:42:27 <frosch123> try commenting-out the intersection stuff, and whether it works
19:43:11 <andythenorth> deleted my 3rd company colour patch :P
19:43:15 <frosch123> it may not work, and change the subtypes of other vehicles
19:44:50 <frosch123> ah, i see, yeah, it won't work :p
19:45:01 <frosch123> changing the gui is not enough, you also need to make the command more complex
19:45:23 <frosch123> probably easier now, with the new command packet
19:45:34 <andythenorth> wouldn't commenting it cause wrong subtypes to be returned to some vehicles?
19:45:39 <andythenorth> I guess they'd just fail silently :P
19:46:44 <frosch123> the problem is, the command uses the subtype-index instead of the stringid, and always refits all selected vehicles
19:47:13 <frosch123> i am not sure whether stringids can be send over the network
19:48:11 <frosch123> static grfs may interfer and desync the stringids
19:48:18 <andythenorth> hmm it's weird that the engine requires mail cargo for the refit
19:48:23 <andythenorth> but has capacity 0
19:48:51 <frosch123> you could hide the cargotype in the gui, if capacity is zero :p
19:49:13 <frosch123> anyway, isn't this the main reason for the regearing cargo
19:49:20 <andythenorth> I think livery callback depends on it
19:49:22 <frosch123> because people rather display "foobar" instead of "mail"?
19:49:38 <andythenorth> I am trying it with RUKTS
19:50:11 <andythenorth> it's such a weird idea combining livery and cargo together in one UI
19:50:19 <andythenorth> it's like separation of concerns isn't a thing :P
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20:02:05 <andythenorth> so how do I autoreplace to a different livery?
20:04:17 <frosch123> you need template-based autoreplace for that
20:04:44 <frosch123> the available livery options depend on the whole consist, not on a single vehicle
20:05:38 <frosch123> regular autoreplace can only try to keep the livery when switching to a different engine offering the same livery
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20:06:16 <andythenorth> I was thinking about where the UI is to choose the livery
20:06:21 <andythenorth> I can't find it :P
20:06:34 <andythenorth> usually this means I need to have my eyes tested
20:09:08 <andythenorth> maybe JGRPP can do it
20:11:57 <andythenorth> yeah template replacement
20:17:36 * andythenorth just had a really stupid idea
20:24:31 <andythenorth> could just have vehicles with different IDs for each livery
20:30:25 <frosch123> you could copy unicode modifiers :p
20:30:35 <frosch123> caboose like vehicles, which change the livery of the engine
20:31:00 <frosch123> build the engine, attach the livery modifier as wagon
20:33:51 <andythenorth> yeah I did proof of concept for that once
20:34:30 <andythenorth> it's not a bad idea
20:35:16 <andythenorth> I can fill the buy menu with weird stuff
20:35:30 <andythenorth> I am sooooo proud of that dice sprite :P
20:35:48 <andythenorth> random: buy menu
20:35:51 <andythenorth> livery: buy menu
20:35:56 <andythenorth> regearing: buy menu
20:36:01 <andythenorth> refits: buy menu
20:38:42 <andythenorth> hmm, I can show a different sprite in depot
20:38:58 <andythenorth> so it could just be a refit thing that's only visible in depot, and has to be last wagon in train
21:05:15 <andythenorth> maybe we should make it more casual game-ish
21:05:17 <andythenorth> vehicles have slots
21:05:28 <andythenorth> and player can choose modifiers
21:05:43 <andythenorth> maybe 3 slots per total consist, and 16 possible modifiers
21:09:57 <TrueBrain> so the WASM variant of TrueGRF is like 400KiB
21:10:01 <TrueBrain> the binary .. is 27 MiB
21:10:20 <TrueBrain> after stripping, it is 1.4 MiB
21:10:44 <frosch123> did you link chromium?
21:10:56 <TrueBrain> no, the CLI binary is a standalone compiler
21:11:13 <TrueBrain> ah, yeah, most of it are debug symbols
21:12:33 <frosch123> does -gsplit-dwarf work?
21:13:03 <andythenorth> how many cargos do we have now?
21:13:13 <frosch123> enough to fill the screen
21:13:17 * andythenorth considering doing livery as cargo
21:13:23 <andythenorth> just refit the engine
21:13:27 <andythenorth> wagons inherit from that
21:13:43 <andythenorth> 16 liveries is plenty
21:13:52 <frosch123> yeah, that would give all the disadvantages, none of the advantages of other solutions
21:13:57 <andythenorth> TBH, 4 is the most I am prepared to draw
21:14:09 <frosch123> no autoreplace, and same refit gui as subtypes :)
21:14:16 <andythenorth> works with autoreplace :P
21:14:31 <andythenorth> refit is preserved usually?
21:14:48 <frosch123> your argument was about replcing with different livery
21:14:58 <frosch123> you cannot autoreplace to a different cargo either
21:15:00 <andythenorth> my argument is weak :(
21:16:34 <frosch123> btw. you do not have that mail-wagon remove livery options, if using regear cargo :p
21:17:24 <frosch123> only needs 1 cargo slot as well
21:17:54 <frosch123> maybe if firs could keep slot 31 empty for vehicle grfs?
21:18:11 <andythenorth> I believe that has been discussed at least once :P
21:18:14 <andythenorth> I wonder what the worst way to choose liveries is?
21:18:38 <andythenorth> can we rank them?
21:19:30 <frosch123> i guess the ranks would change every minute
21:19:36 <frosch123> can we invest and bet on them?
21:19:46 <andythenorth> we could put them on a coin?
21:20:28 <frosch123> pikka could restart his baseset-kickstarter
21:20:36 <frosch123> but instead sell nfts for each baseset sprite
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21:24:40 <andythenorth> does that fail with anything?
21:26:18 <frosch123> no, people just cried about long purchase lists, while dropdowns with 63 railtypes are fine or so
21:26:28 <frosch123> possibly different sets of people :p
21:26:57 <andythenorth> Iron Horse currently has 842 trains
21:27:00 <frosch123> oh, also different reliabilities
21:27:03 <andythenorth> is that 'long'? :P
21:27:09 <frosch123> but people cry about breakdowns anyway
21:27:30 <andythenorth> so if only we could have some kind of shadow ID :P
21:27:36 <frosch123> i think intro-dates were fixed
21:27:42 <andythenorth> like variants, with a pointer to one base vehicle
21:28:00 <andythenorth> or just an ID, but with a pointer to track the properties of another vehicle
21:28:10 <andythenorth> and maybe a way to nest / un-nest in the purchase menu
21:29:12 <andythenorth> don't say such things
21:29:30 <andythenorth> we could also discuss canadian grfids :(
21:29:50 <frosch123> is there a podcast about them?
21:30:17 <andythenorth> I was sent a translation of Zorg in another forum saying "it is strange that andythenorth knows so little for someone who has made so much of the game"
21:30:24 <andythenorth> which is true, but eh
21:30:46 <andythenorth> apparently I am doing restaurant cars wrong and have basically ruined both Iron Horse and all game balance ever
21:31:43 <frosch123> well, when looking at the gui mockups of Z, i think ottd has made a lot of things right :)
21:32:27 <TrueBrain> accidents happen :P
21:32:38 <FLHerne> Zorg does have some strange ideas of balance
21:32:45 <frosch123> hmm, "zorg" may still be a better name than "z"
21:33:10 <FLHerne> tbf anyone used to OpenTTD is going to have /some/ strange idea of balance
21:33:33 <andythenorth> can we restrict a var to only the graphics chain?
21:33:41 <andythenorth> using the extra cb info var?
21:34:04 <frosch123> endless possibilities :)
21:34:25 <frosch123> it's always good to start with the implementation details, before figuring out the requirements
21:34:38 <andythenorth> I think the requirements are like daylength :P
21:35:03 <andythenorth> I was trying to think of a way to prevent 'but red train goes faster'
21:35:24 <andythenorth> partly to annoy those authors who want to do that
21:36:07 <frosch123> the trick is to let the players battle the authors, and have popcorn on the sideline
21:36:20 <andythenorth> that's what discord is for these days
21:36:42 <andythenorth> so...I never thought of the simple thing
21:36:50 <andythenorth> which is split the livery callback out from subtypes
21:37:18 <andythenorth> reimplement so it's a standalone thing
21:37:20 <frosch123> i am not sure about the "never thought of" :p
21:37:22 <andythenorth> and just repeat that UI, but triggered on a different button, and ignoring the cargos
21:37:59 <andythenorth> "may have forgotten"
21:38:37 <andythenorth> I don't know why, but not offering a new way to do stupid callback 36 tricks seems like it would help
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21:44:16 <TrueBrain> oof, I also have to figure out licensing for TrueGRF .. as in, if you use FIRS as example project, FIRS binds the license for you
21:44:26 <TrueBrain> I kinda have to make that a bit more verbose :)
21:44:46 <andythenorth> ha if I do "livery = copy of engine, with new ID", I can also add "random livery choice for that engine", and re-use the dice icon :P
21:45:13 <andythenorth> do we have enough IDs?
21:45:44 <andythenorth> TrueBrain I could relicense, but the issue is words, not license?
21:45:59 <TrueBrain> I am fine with your license
21:46:10 <TrueBrain> I just want to make sure that people using FIRS as template, know that they have to use the same license
21:47:31 <andythenorth> I like the first option more :P
21:50:29 <andythenorth> meh frosch123 is correct, the varying reliability makes it silly to use same-vehicle-different-IDs for liveries
21:53:12 <frosch123> TrueBrain: "you have to complete this multiple-choice test in order to base your newgrf on firs: (1) do you allow others to create derivates of your work, including commercial use (2) ..."
21:53:36 <TrueBrain> hmm .. not sure if you are joking, but I kinda like that idea
21:53:39 <TrueBrain> just make it very explicit
21:53:49 <frosch123> bananas proves that people jsut pick random licenses. it may be easier to pipck the licence for them based on questions
21:54:12 <TrueBrain> and FIRS will have a rather limited set
21:54:17 <TrueBrain> but I will also make an empty package available
21:54:23 <TrueBrain> which is basically "unlicensed"
21:54:35 <TrueBrain> so yeah, might be good to have some explicit statements, and make them pick
21:54:56 <frosch123> yeah, but if people store their grfs on github, there should be a license file nevertheless
21:54:59 <TrueBrain> just means I need to borrow those sentences from somewhere, where they are described really well :)
21:55:22 <TrueBrain> yeah, that "unlicensed" will become licensed when they make a clone of that project
21:55:33 <TrueBrain> so uses of TrueGRF are forced into setting a license
21:55:38 <frosch123> so a multiple-choice test based on cc-by may we worth it, with a final qustion "do you agree to license your work under <result of previous questions>"
21:56:30 <frosch123> not all of them are offered on bananas
21:57:17 <frosch123> hmm, there was a better page than that...
21:58:01 <TrueBrain> took me 3 hours to get that all sorted .. but you can now download the YAML -> GRF compiler as a standalone executable :)
21:58:03 <frosch123> what? a week early?
21:58:08 <TrueBrain> and it actually works :P
21:58:11 <TrueBrain> now for TrueGRF itself ...
21:58:23 <frosch123> ah, that's the trick :p
22:00:22 <TrueBrain> frosch123: nice :) We just have to change it a bit .. to actually end up with GPL etc
22:00:30 <TrueBrain> or switch fully to CC
22:00:33 <TrueBrain> that is always an option too, ofc
22:01:09 <dwfreed> the tangentest of tangents from this channel: I totally got the urge to play atc
22:01:30 <frosch123> "do you want to share sprites with andy" -> gpl, "otherwise" -> cc
22:01:47 <TrueBrain> pretty sure I can convince andy to relicense his stuff under CC :P
22:01:53 <dwfreed> (text interface game from BSD where you're a traffic controller and you have to give planes instructions to get to their destination)
22:01:56 <TrueBrain> but I am not sure I actually like CC .. there are a bit of issues with that license ..
22:02:00 <andythenorth> oof actually it's not all mine
22:02:26 <frosch123> TrueBrain: more issues than with gpl? :p
22:02:36 <TrueBrain> doubtful .. images under GPL are tricky eitherway
22:10:18 <TrueBrain> I have so many ideas for TrueGRF .. just I hate UI so much :P
22:19:46 <TrueBrain> and fix up the last bits , like this license bla :P
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22:40:21 <TrueBrain> lol, by moving the repo, the github.io link became invalid
22:40:26 <TrueBrain> not exactly what I intended :( Owh well
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23:04:59 <wallabra> ECS Vectors is quite cool
23:05:12 <wallabra> I'm not entirely sure why I seem to like it more than FIRS
23:05:30 <wallabra> I think it has to do with how it has industries that pop at towns
23:06:07 <wallabra> Like gas stations and construction stores, as well as tourism
23:19:48 <andythenorth> but your FIRS is broken :P
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