IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-01-20
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15:58:10 <glx> each server uses its own rules anyway
15:58:43 <bkilm[m]> I've created a section for "house rules" to enumerate those that I could find. Feel free to extend if you know more.
16:09:25 <supermop_work> none of these rules are canonical
16:10:47 <supermop_work> 'boosted primary industry stealing' doesn't even make sense from a vanilla gameplay perspective
16:11:23 <supermop_work> this whole page should be deleted
16:11:37 <supermop_work> it is a bad faith misrepresentation of what OpenTTD is
16:12:48 <bkilm[m]> The canonical rules are the first half (created many years ago), and the second parts are house rules that are not canonical, which some servers may cherry pick based on demand.
16:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no such thing as "canonical rules"
16:13:39 <bkilm[m]> Rules can scroll through real fast on chat and it was difficult for even me who played OpenTTD - it took some time to understand all hence why it is an advantage to have them explained at a single wiki page.
16:13:40 <supermop_work> espescially any rules regarding a 'city builder script'
16:14:00 <bkilm[m]> The city builder script is only mentioned in the non-canonical section
16:14:21 <bkilm[m]> Sorry, I'd not want to repeat myself so many times, I'll leave for a few hours to let you read through and then I'll come back for feedback
16:14:37 <LordAro> yeah, much of that needs removing
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16:14:46 <supermop_work> it shouldn't be mentioned at all, it implies that this script is officially sanctioned by OpenTTD and other scripts are not
16:14:46 <LordAro> not all, by any means
16:14:55 <LordAro> but most of it is extremely server specific
16:15:10 <LordAro> and "House rules" implies there is a "House"
16:18:04 <supermop_work> the whole page should be 'in general, be a considerate player, and be sure to familiarize yourself with any particular rules or conventions that a server operator may apply"
16:18:37 <LordAro> possibly keep some of the "Common rules" stuff
16:19:15 <LordAro> also == foo == -> = foo = & === bar === -> == bar ==
16:19:21 <LordAro> === foo === is really ugly
16:22:18 <supermop_work> also competing with other players to take more cargo from an industry or town by virtue of better station ratings is one of the original core elements of gameplay
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17:40:15 <supermop_work> lets see what did i decide on for maximum building height
17:40:40 <supermop_work> i was doing 128, but tube building might want to be taller
18:08:10 <andythenorth> wiki things are wiki
18:08:59 <andythenorth> it's kind of funny how some of us instantly react against a page
18:09:10 <andythenorth> even though it looks like it's been there for a long time
18:10:33 <LordAro> andythenorth: first part has been there a long time
18:10:37 <LordAro> second part is new, afaik
18:10:43 <LordAro> i don't really have any issues with the first part
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18:20:09 <andythenorth> how much GS can we patch then? :P
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19:06:47 <refujesus> I am with a group of 3 people in university, looking to see if there was anything we could help to implement as a part of our project. We would be working on this for 3 months. Does anyone have any suggestions?
19:09:42 <frosch123> what are your interests and your skills? there are plenty of python/web thingies around
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19:11:53 <frosch123> just avoid the basegame :)
19:12:13 <frosch123> i don't think the basegame is particular 3-month project friendly
19:13:57 <refujesus> umm we all have good python skills
19:14:11 <refujesus> we are all interested in development
19:16:59 <frosch123> i am sure you can find somethnig that looks nice on a CV :p
19:19:09 <frosch123> though not sure whether there is much too do
19:21:33 <refujesus> is there any particular issues that will take around 3 months to fix
19:21:56 <LordAro> that very much depends on the person :)
19:22:25 <refujesus> that is true, we got 3 people and we are pretty competant
19:22:31 <frosch123> i would think with the bananas stuff you have the most options to choose your own topics
19:23:22 <frosch123> there are endless community wishes for bananas, not everything is a good idea :)
19:25:06 <LordAro> i very much doubt there's a single issue that will take 3 months exactly
19:25:16 <frosch123> for now you only said python. there is also c++, html, css, js, rust, ...
19:25:16 <LordAro> just start at one end and see how many you do :)
19:25:29 <LordAro> frosch123: only TrueBrain has any rust, afaik :p
19:25:52 <frosch123> i know, only threw that in check whether it shows a reaction
19:26:24 <refujesus> yeah we can do java, c++, js, and html
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19:43:05 <Gustavo6046> it's good to modularize projects, especially as they get large
19:43:30 <Gustavo6046> because with a lot of moving parts, interdependence between parts of your code becomes more of a liability, especially if you start having to rewrite stuff
19:43:39 <Gustavo6046> there's always a bunch of unwritten specs between code that does interface
19:43:50 <Gustavo6046> but OOP is by far a bad, bad, bad way to solve that problem
19:51:40 <bkilm[m]> And also, `<h1>` (and =xxx=) is used for the title of a page, not on subsections in mediawiki. This is what I see in mediawiki as well.
19:51:51 <bkilm[m]> I mean I can see the same convention in the openttd wiki
19:52:03 <LordAro> bkilm[m]: i'm not sure what wikipedia says, but "house rules" sounds overly official to me
19:52:52 <supermop_work> "X's Server house rules" are not the 'house rules" of OpenTTD
19:53:16 <bkilm[m]> House rules in English mean "unofficial modifications of the rules"
19:53:35 <Xaroth> House rules are defined by the house, not by the game.
19:54:14 <supermop_work> if i have a pool table in my basement, my house rules are free placement of cue ball after a scratch
19:54:33 <supermop_work> those are not the house rules of pool / billiards in general
19:54:42 <Xaroth> When you have a pool table in your basement, can I come play a game of pool, supermop_work?
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19:54:55 <supermop_work> i used to when i lived in the midwest
19:55:15 <supermop_work> now i don't even have a basement
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19:56:28 <supermop_work> bkilm[m]: for example, the openttdcoop rules are not openttd rules
19:56:30 <LordAro> yeah, i'm saying in the context of the OTTD wiki, the "house" is OTTD, which is not the case here
19:56:44 <LordAro> which is not something we want to suggest*
19:56:54 <supermop_work> and they would be published on the openttdcoop site, not openttd wiki
19:58:13 <bkilm[m]> Okay, I renamed the section to "additional unofficial rules" to make that more clear.
19:58:49 * andythenorth thought the OOP backlash had ended now
19:58:53 <andythenorth> didn't we make our peace with it?
19:59:08 <andythenorth> it's only been 30 years or so
20:00:11 <Gustavo6046> (still on OOP) arguably, it solves that problem, then brings up many of its own; its structural programming nature often leads to boilerplate code, class inheritance hierarchies tend to do more bad than good (reusing code is good but forcing it will generally cripple your code quality), and don't even get me started on the performance issues, particularly related to branching and the CPU cache and what virtual method tables
20:00:11 <Gustavo6046> does to your poor processor.
20:00:32 <frosch123> andythenorth: 30? you mean 60-70?
20:01:01 <Gustavo6046> brb porting openttd to a MOS 6502
20:01:31 <Gustavo6046> you know what would be cool?
20:01:42 <Gustavo6046> using several 6502s to kind of make a large and beefier "processor"
20:01:45 <wiscii> you will be starting the games back in 1700 then ;-)
20:02:25 <andythenorth> frosch123 70 years since the backlash started? :o
20:02:36 <bkilm[m]> Gustavo6046: Please do that, I'm still desperate to be able to play on an ASCII screen!
20:03:20 <bkilm[m]> Many great demos from recent times had been ported to C64 as well.
20:03:25 <Gustavo6046> maybe one would be the control processor, and like six would be for arithmetic operations and SIMD, four would be for floating point operations, and another two for handling large-throughput memory operations (what was it called again?), also a rasterizer iGPU made of 4 processors
20:05:20 <Gustavo6046> ah I remember Second Reality
20:05:32 <Gustavo6046> I wouldn't call it recent, even though it's definitely not from the very early demoscene
20:05:33 <Gustavo6046> it's from the 90s
20:05:54 <Gustavo6046> then again when it was released the demoscene was more of an Amiga thing than PC
20:06:12 <Gustavo6046> I just like the music though, not too much for the demos themselves, to be honest, although they are certainly impressive
20:06:13 <_dp_> as much as I like the idea of explaining various rules that servers can have right now those additions are mostly nonsense
20:06:27 <_dp_> like exclusive rights aren't even a rule, it's a server misconfiguration
20:06:32 <_dp_> if you see it enabled, run
20:07:41 <Gustavo6046> exclusive rights?
20:07:56 <Gustavo6046> This railcar station is (C)1963 Gustavo6046 Inc.
20:08:42 <_dp_> Gustavo6046, if it's enabled you can for about 300k buy exclusive rights to all cargo in the zone of that town for a year
20:08:48 <_dp_> fun and exciting mechanic :p
20:09:05 <Gustavo6046> that sounds horrible
20:11:22 <bkilm[m]> _dp_: Well, there are lots of other town in play and each player should already have built up their empire to not rely on a single town by the time anyone has enough money to fund this.
20:12:03 <bkilm[m]> It can be used to drop out some of your opponents when you are running in "massively" multiplayer mode and most people got access to a small territory.
20:12:32 <_dp_> bkilm[m], I can get 300k in two month and buy rights in your starting town, good luck surviving :P
20:13:11 <bkilm[m]> By the way, it is sad how almost all AI's fail when you turn the difficulty setting to `hard`. They are also bad at computing infrastructure maintenance.
20:13:35 <bkilm[m]> Not sure your currency, but last time I looked it cost millions, but it was long ago.
20:14:12 <bkilm[m]> Like multiple times what was a typical loan, maybe 10x, a little less I think
20:15:29 <_dp_> I can get exclusive rights in single player, bullying ais is a harmless fun
20:16:01 <_dp_> but in mp it's just nonsense, whoever is ahead can just force others into bancrupcy
20:17:21 <bkilm[m]> A different kind of question. Is the wiki running a fully static website? I like how it is generated from github (although I would prefer Markdown). Redirecting to ddg for search seems like an odd choice, but still better than Google, though. It's a pity that it does not open without JavaScript (there's lite.duckduckgo.com and lite.qwant.com for that) Did you consider perhaps generating a static word index for search, though?
20:18:21 <andythenorth> PRs are possible :P
20:18:40 <bkilm[m]> Interestingly, in all multiplayer games I've seen, people were struggling just to survive and not go bankrupt in a few years - the focus wasn't about being a mogul. The last time I even let my opponent back to my company after he went bankrupt so we could resume the fun.
20:28:33 <supermop_work> bkilm[m]: personally i only ever play multiplayer to play cooperatively with someone else who has a similar playstyle to me
20:30:36 <andythenorth> there's really only one rule needed
20:30:49 <andythenorth> "swastikas aren't as funny as you think"
20:32:30 <andythenorth> " most of the servers that currently run are not official open TTD servers "
20:32:47 <andythenorth> lol never start rewriting a wiki article :P
20:33:33 <TrueBrain> lol, we never had any official servers :D Which is a good thing :)
20:33:49 <andythenorth> right how do I patch OpenTTD :P
20:34:05 <andythenorth> limitation skill disturbs me greatly
20:34:11 <frosch123> TrueBrain: ah, that's actually a self-contained subject. but still, bananas is probably less political :)
20:34:11 <andythenorth> goes it throw out?
20:34:32 <TrueBrain> frosch123: and 3x 3 months .. that might even be possible :D
20:34:48 <frosch123> pretty sure it was not meant fulltime
20:35:18 <frosch123> and i did not want to rely on you mentoring them everyday :)
20:36:13 <andythenorth> doesn't compile for starters
20:36:28 <andythenorth> extraneous comma in params
20:36:38 <Gustavo6046> who needs a masters in business administration when you have someone who has played openttd or simcity 4 since childhood
20:36:55 <Gustavo6046> if you have someone with a MBA and someone who has played those games, who do you think will be better at managing a business?
20:37:42 <Gustavo6046> the person who is good at memorizing funny feel-good vocabulary from capitalist wannabe education, or the person who has developed a more concrete intuition for accounting through the help of simulation games?
20:38:15 <Xaroth> I have my 15 years of experience running stuff in EVE Online on my resume.
20:38:24 <Xaroth> has landed me more than one job interview.
20:38:31 <frosch123> is it just me, or did the bs level raise in this channel over the last week?
20:38:52 <Gustavo6046> don't you agree though?
20:39:02 <LordAro> frosch123: i'll take that over silence
20:39:24 <LordAro> i tried EVE for about 9 months
20:39:29 <LordAro> never really got into the swing of it
20:39:33 <Xaroth> You lasted quite a long time :P
20:39:49 <andythenorth> running a business is mostly people, spreadsheets, people, compliance questionnaires and people
20:39:50 <Xaroth> most people either last two weeks, or get hooked on it for years
20:39:54 <TrueBrain> "tried" .. "for .. 9 months" ...
20:39:58 <LordAro> i wanted to get hooked on it
20:40:04 <TrueBrain> that is enough time for someone to poop out a baby
20:40:15 <LordAro> i blame the cinematic trailer from... 2015?
20:40:29 <frosch123> "the game really becomes boring after some time" (lordaro, 9 months in)
20:40:29 <Xaroth> They are running a Dr.Who crossover event currently :P
20:40:37 <bkilm[m]> <andythenorth> "" most of the servers that..." <- This was an original sentence. I tried to not touch anything else from the past, only extend the free knowledge base.
20:40:41 <andythenorth> TrueBrain you don't poop out a baby. I have been there.
20:40:53 <andythenorth> just in case you were confused
20:41:19 <TrueBrain> EVE is fun, till someone steals your Tengu .... :P
20:41:25 <TrueBrain> at least I still have my Loki
20:41:38 <Xaroth> It's even more fun when you are the one stealing.
20:41:55 <TrueBrain> the transport stealing, that isn't "fun" :P
20:42:25 <Xaroth> There's two things in EVE that I loathe. Mining, and Logistics.
20:42:54 <TrueBrain> back in the day ... where you want ratting with carriers ... now that were fun times
20:43:09 <andythenorth> game is probably correct
20:43:12 <bkilm[m]> I did primary industry stealing with a friend just for the kicks (he didn't even notice it 😄). I compared our profits to see which kind of train schedules and solutions worked better (full load vs not, 2 trains vs 1, 2 rails vs 1).
20:43:35 <TrueBrain> and someone has to start talking about OpenTTD again
20:43:58 <Gustavo6046> <andythenorth> running a business is mostly people, spreadsheets, people, compliance questionnaires and people
20:44:01 <bkilm[m]> Although I gave up that coal line because I found much better ones - shipping valuables that only required building a little sidelines to hook up with the existing tracks.
20:44:06 <andythenorth> oh it might be working
20:44:10 <andythenorth> well it might compile
20:44:14 <andythenorth> 'working' is too strong
20:44:16 <Gustavo6046> it's mostly about the business model
20:44:44 <Gustavo6046> that is, it's about what you do, and how you earn money from that, and where you spend money, and whether the earnings exceed the expenditures
20:44:47 <andythenorth> ok don't declare a param as uint8 in one place and uint32 in another
20:45:05 <andythenorth> Gustavo6046 how many business have you started / closed / sold / run? :)
20:45:08 <Gustavo6046> sometimes it's not enough for them to exceed just a bit; a low 'profit margin' means you have less wiggle roo mto change thihngs up
20:45:40 <Gustavo6046> I know friends who have and they agree, though none of them have MBAs (or the Brazilian equivalent of that anyway)
20:46:10 <Gustavo6046> besides, isn't it kind of obvious?
20:46:29 <Gustavo6046> the main purpose of a business is to profit, and to use some of that profit to provide goods or services for its customers
20:46:41 <Gustavo6046> it doesn't take a lot of first-hand experience to know that
20:47:35 <Gustavo6046> the thing that complicates it sometimes is the volume of data, like how many employees / departments and stuff to account for when calculating the cost of doing something to assess whether doing it is a good idea
20:47:43 <Gustavo6046> that's why spreadsheets exist!
20:47:51 <andythenorth> such spreadsheets
20:48:03 <Gustavo6046> but really those are just nuances
20:48:07 <andythenorth> the primary use of spreadsheets is to track policy vs. non-conformity
20:48:12 <andythenorth> in my experience
20:48:18 <andythenorth> TrueBrain will agree I think
20:48:19 <Gustavo6046> well spreadsheets have a lot of uses
20:48:27 <Gustavo6046> but accounting (financial usage) is one of the main ones
20:48:34 <Gustavo6046> they're versatile
20:48:44 <Gustavo6046> also different people with different job positions may use the same tools for different things
20:48:52 <andythenorth> right let's see if I crash OpenTTD
20:48:55 <Gustavo6046> e.g. accountants will use spreadsheets for, well, accounting
20:52:59 <andythenorth> ok I've crashed my script
20:53:04 <andythenorth> I expected to crash OpenTTD
20:55:33 <andythenorth> does _object_mngr handle the failure case of invalid grfid and grf_local_id
20:55:46 <TrueBrain> what a weird order of parameters ...
20:55:56 <TrueBrain> I first tell you the name, after that the room to find it in
20:56:08 <frosch123> andythenorth: it will even handle the case when the grf was removed from the savegame laer
20:56:14 <frosch123> it remembers everything
20:56:53 <glx> but yeah we tried to be failproof with human messable stuff :)
20:56:55 <andythenorth> TrueBrain not even sure they're uint32 :P
20:57:01 <andythenorth> I did start counting bytes on my fingers
20:57:09 <andythenorth> but I can only count to 3
20:57:19 <frosch123> TrueBrain: maybe urls were still cool at that time?
20:57:19 <TrueBrain> I don't know that number?
20:57:26 <TrueBrain> 0, 1, 10, 11, 100, ...
20:57:44 <TrueBrain> frosch123: yeah .... also never understood subdomains and tlds .. that is just wrong
20:57:52 <TrueBrain> I also don't understand 12-12-12 as dates
20:58:04 <TrueBrain> use SANE ORDER OF SHIT
20:58:41 <frosch123> i remember a funny conversation with my father. he was upset how shuffled the urls are. like first go to "www" in the front, then go do "country-code" in the back :)
20:59:23 <supermop_work> bring back gopher
21:00:13 <supermop_work> TrueBrain: i cannot understand any date other than 2022.01.20
21:00:27 <andythenorth> fortunately we have standards
21:00:27 <supermop_work> espescially for naming files etc
21:00:31 <andythenorth> multiple standards
21:00:41 <andythenorth> ok so now I get 65536 as result
21:00:48 <supermop_work> andythenorth: no one appears to actually use the date standards
21:00:56 <frosch123> andythenorth: INVALID_OBJECT?
21:01:10 <glx> so probably invalid indeed
21:01:21 <frosch123> andythenorth: if i had to guess, you probably need to byteswap the grfid :)
21:01:23 <supermop_work> is there an ottd gopher site?
21:01:27 <frosch123> it's one of those reoccuring traps
21:01:29 <TrueBrain> 65536? Really andythenorth ?
21:01:35 <andythenorth> frosch123 probably :(
21:02:08 <TrueBrain> seems glx just substracted by one, for good measure :)
21:02:32 <TrueBrain> you are most likely not wrong
21:02:35 <andythenorth> I always forget how grfids work
21:02:37 <TrueBrain> fat finger syndrome :P
21:02:50 <andythenorth> so I copied 47477015 from what OpenTTD shows in grf window
21:02:57 <andythenorth> (Auz power line stuff)
21:02:58 <frosch123> TrueBrain: my word processor runs through a google ai, it silently changes the text to something it thinks fits better
21:03:32 <glx> grf window shows byteswapped value
21:03:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: try adding a BSWAP32 somewhere
21:04:05 <glx> so numbers are in same order as letters
21:04:08 <andythenorth> GSNewGRF stuff has
21:04:09 <andythenorth> this->AddItem(BSWAP32(c->ident.grfid));
21:04:34 <andythenorth> grfid = BSWAP32(grfid); // Match people's expectations.
21:05:47 <andythenorth> I believe michi intended that yes
21:06:17 <glx> all that because grfid is an uint32 but filled like a char[4]
21:11:16 <supermop_work> maybe i should switch to doing a 32bpp EZ set so i can just use antialiased line drawings, and do everything in cad/rhino
21:11:31 <glx> add breakpoints and trace :)
21:11:56 <andythenorth> now you torture me :(
21:11:59 <supermop_work> total base set and gui conversion to make the game look like an autocad window
21:12:04 <andythenorth> I got through an entire devloloper career
21:12:08 <frosch123> andythenorth: add a "0x" in your .nut file
21:12:08 <andythenorth> 20 years, no breakpoints
21:12:11 <supermop_work> so it looks like i am working when i play
21:12:38 <andythenorth> frosch123 got a result :D
21:13:11 <frosch123> yay, this is like that old tv show
21:13:20 <frosch123> i give you the letters, you tell me whether they fit
21:13:36 <supermop_work> frosch123: thats still on tv
21:13:45 <supermop_work> with the same hosts!
21:14:02 <frosch123> no idea, i haven't watched tv since 2008
21:14:25 <frosch123> also pretty sure i only saw the german version, though it is a literal translation of '"wheel of fortune"
21:15:30 <andythenorth> now I need to reverse it to find the in the grf :P
21:15:32 <andythenorth> I didn't make it
21:15:37 <andythenorth> it's auz object stuff
21:16:35 <supermop_work> haha glucks rad
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21:16:52 <supermop_work> certainly a lot more concise
21:17:11 <supermop_work> we should shorten the name to luckwheel
21:18:49 <glx> yup I have the french version of this one frosch123
21:20:04 <frosch123> lol, almost the same box design
21:23:03 <andythenorth> hmm how do I increment a hex value in squirrel?
21:23:32 <andythenorth> trying to find the grf local id of an object
21:23:42 <glx> or even a++ should work too I think
21:23:46 <andythenorth> maybe I can just look in auz objects src
21:23:50 <andythenorth> I thought this would be faster :P
21:24:13 <glx> let me introduce you to for loops :)
21:24:14 <frosch123> can you use the tileinfo tool?
21:24:23 <frosch123> newgrf debug window
21:24:35 <frosch123> maybe there is a objectid of nearby tile variable
21:24:51 <andythenorth> what a useful var
21:24:58 <andythenorth> but I don't know how to translate the id
21:26:16 <andythenorth> do objects append something to the id per view?
21:26:21 * andythenorth confused what the id scheme is
21:28:11 <frosch123> var60 says "Get object type and view at offset "
21:28:26 <frosch123> view is in bits 16-19
21:29:51 <andythenorth> not sure I understand objects :)
21:30:08 <andythenorth> I assumed each entry in the buildable list was 1 ID, with 4 views
21:30:15 <andythenorth> but the IDs are spread across list entries
21:30:42 <andythenorth> hmm maybe user error
21:30:47 <andythenorth> all these pylons look the same :P
21:30:47 <frosch123> it's the same as vehicleids, you do not need to use them consecutively
21:31:42 <andythenorth> version 2 can be HULA HOOPS
21:31:59 <andythenorth> ok this GRF resolver appears to work
21:36:52 <andythenorth> commit message and docstring stuff both wrong :P
21:37:01 <andythenorth> and I didn't fill out PR motivation stuff
21:37:22 <frosch123> but as tb already said, the parameters are weird
21:37:33 <glx> andy uses "Change:" for every commits
21:37:38 <andythenorth> also does it really not need any validation?
21:37:42 <frosch123> "static ObjectType ResolveNewGRFID(uint32 grfid, uint32 grf_local_id)"
21:38:28 <glx> but here it should be something like "Add: [scripts] blah"
21:38:36 <frosch123> andythenorth: grf_local_id is used as uint16, you could reject ids >= 0x10000
21:39:01 <andythenorth> inline review? :P
21:40:08 <frosch123> but other than that, it needs no validation
21:40:32 <frosch123> the override-manager is meant to process data from newgrf
21:40:46 <frosch123> so, no trusted data anywhere
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21:52:13 <supermop_work> should have a bunch of pipes etc running up the side to look more pompideau-y
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21:57:49 <andythenorth> one PR for industry and object grf ID resolving?
22:05:54 <andythenorth> if FIRS sets power station probability to 0
22:06:02 <andythenorth> GS can place them where it thinks the power grid should be
22:06:18 <andythenorth> rather than trying to pathfind to backbone connect them all
22:07:11 <andythenorth> might need to check terrain can build power station though
22:10:59 <supermop_work> " lets put the nuclear powerplant at the top of this 4000' mountain"
22:14:12 <supermop_work> andythenorth: need bucket lines and ropeways for the coal
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22:29:40 <wiscii> that sounds like a job for "Super-Fenicular Train-man"! ;-)
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22:42:06 <supermop_work> maybe i will sneak out of the office soon to go home
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23:57:09 <wiscii> ^ this is not on my continent!
continue to next day ⏵
