IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-01-19
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03:53:01 <wiscii> impossible names is a ottd norm
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04:45:02 <Gustavo6046> if you want it to be cool, just add more dragons to it
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15:55:45 <supermop_work> what are people's thoughts on buildings not being orthogonal to the tile?
15:56:03 <supermop_work> i feel like its weird if a wall faces the camera directly
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16:59:03 <LordAro> what a new and interesting idea in #9792
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17:10:44 <peter1138> What am I meant to do with a bottle of Prosecco?
17:10:58 <LordAro> pretend you've won a race
17:11:18 <andythenorth_> put it in a pie
17:11:20 <TrueBrain> Time to close that new PR, it adds a setting. Right? :p
17:11:23 <peter1138> Christ that's never going to happen.
17:11:32 <andythenorth_> whilst complaining?
17:11:34 <andythenorth_> that's what I do
17:11:48 <dale> Drink the whole bottle and submit PRs?
17:11:48 <TrueBrain> You do it without the drinking :D
17:21:07 <peter1138> Although a bit tired from 4 hours driving
17:29:18 <wiscii> how can somebody not know what to do with a bottle of prosecco ?
17:29:40 <wiscii> if you don't drink then gift it
17:41:41 <andythenorth_> make a sauce for duck
17:42:15 <wiscii> why ruin a duck and a bottle of wine ?
17:43:29 <dale> What if the sauce is for a duck to put on duck food?
17:44:51 <wiscii> what if the duck is a concert pianist ..
17:47:41 <dale> With just a beak and webbed feet? I'm very impressed, I can barely do chopsticks.
17:53:14 <andythenorth_> _dp_ so GSObjectType.NewGRFResolveID() ?
17:53:45 <wiscii> duck needs fingers to pour the sauce ?
17:54:25 <andythenorth_> wonder if there's anything to copy from elswhere
17:54:37 <andythenorth_> e.g. neighbouring tile checks
17:56:46 <_dp_> oh, btw, also probably GSIndustryType, not GSIndustry
17:57:46 <andythenorth_> dunno if I can patch this or not :P
17:58:11 <TrueBrain> limited editions are nice
18:15:56 <andythenorth_> did anyone NFT a grf yet?
18:16:24 <frosch123> you can register your grfs on bananas, using a unique grfid
18:18:15 <andythenorth_> git is almost a blockchain
18:20:41 <LordAro> is it not? latest value depends on all the previous values
18:20:52 * LordAro does not know blockchain
18:30:21 <andythenorth_> me neither, but I tried "isn't git just a blockchain" and apparently I won't be going to the moon with that negative attitude
18:31:42 <nielsm> git is missing the critical property of requiring to competitively guess at solutions to math problems to be permitted to add a new revision
18:32:41 <andythenorth_> I was told it was the immutability of history, rather than proof of work that was missing
18:33:05 <andythenorth_> git is trivial to rewrite?
18:33:47 <nielsm> as long as you can get everyone else who wants to use the same history to agree on the rewrite
18:33:50 * andythenorth_ waits for someone to point out blockchains are often trivial to rewrite
18:34:02 <andythenorth_> and get forked due to politics, or theft
18:34:14 <dwfreed> which is no different than forks on crypto blockchains :P
18:34:31 <andythenorth_> blockchain is immutable store of value!
18:34:35 <andythenorth_> beyond governments or banks
18:35:02 <andythenorth_> but not beyond those with the root keys
18:35:23 <andythenorth_> definitely crypto bros are much more trustworthy than government or banks
18:35:36 <andythenorth_> when society collapses, you will be able to place your trust in coin
18:36:41 <andythenorth_> well the electricity will keep magically arriving
18:36:52 <andythenorth_> nothing to do with society
18:36:58 <andythenorth_> the generators are run by elves
18:37:06 <andythenorth_> and driven by pixie dust
18:37:35 <andythenorth_> ok so GS resolving the grf id
18:37:36 <LordAro> nielsm: i find guessing at the correct programming solutions to be more interesting
18:37:41 * andythenorth_ looks for code to copy
18:38:55 <andythenorth_> hmm not even sure what needs compared with what
18:39:11 <andythenorth_> searching 'grffile' seems a good place to find similar code
18:39:22 * andythenorth_ wonders if Github copilot can extend GS for us
18:41:16 <wiscii> is with 1984 being a warning not an instruction manual .. same goes for crypto-currency
18:41:54 <andythenorth_> GetObjectIDAtOffset is where I am looking now
18:42:21 <andythenorth_> I don't understand how the openttd internal ID for a grf item is found
18:42:26 <andythenorth_> it just position in some list?
18:43:19 <andythenorth_> so to resolve that with a grfid and id-in-the-grf, walk the pool, comparing?
18:43:26 <andythenorth_> then return the pool index?
18:44:05 <andythenorth_> the intended interface is something like GSObjectType.NewGRFResolveID(grfid, id_in_grf) -> id
18:44:13 <andythenorth_> the term id here is so overloaded
18:44:45 <glx> main issue with id from grf is to be sure it's the correct grf file
18:45:52 <frosch123> andythenorth_: "internal ObjectSpec index" = _object_mngr.GetID(grf_local_id, grf_id);
18:46:01 <frosch123> repeat with similar _mngr objects
18:47:41 <andythenorth_> ok so grf_local_id is the simple term :)
18:56:03 <peter1138> Okay, apparently I napped.
18:56:09 <andythenorth_> is that literally paste that line and return index?
18:56:16 <andythenorth_> or do I need to adapt?
18:58:37 <TrueBrain> hmm .. any reason NML doesnt have industry var64 listed? (Distance-to-industry)
18:58:44 <andythenorth_> wondered if I could just do
18:58:45 <andythenorth_> return _object_mngr.GetID(grf_local_id, grf_id);
18:58:54 <andythenorth_> but with some validation for case of item not found
18:59:05 <andythenorth_> TrueBrain I'll look :P
18:59:23 <andythenorth_> is industry_distance not var 64?
19:00:37 <TrueBrain> "You may note that this variable can be used instead of variable 64."
19:00:48 <andythenorth_> superseded by 67
19:00:53 <andythenorth_> no case for 64 I am aware of
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19:05:57 <TrueBrain> I hate 67 and 68 already :P
19:06:08 <TrueBrain> I don't want to add support for that :D Fuck other NewGRFs :P
19:07:05 <frosch123> the are surprisingly similar to what andy wants to do with gs :p
19:08:45 <andythenorth_> I am waiting for the first person to point out I'm trying to make grf in GS
19:08:57 <andythenorth_> but this channel has certain predictable patterns
19:09:31 <frosch123> i am waiting for what pynut will look like
19:11:46 <andythenorth_> I should change the readme eh
19:13:28 <TrueBrain> hmm .. var71 .. isn't that just 6c/6d in percentage?
19:14:20 <andythenorth_> I think it's there for convenience
19:15:28 <frosch123> the PR which added all the 60+x variable for 16 in/out cargos specifically left it out, because it was useless
19:15:38 <frosch123> then people complained it was missing, and added a separare PR
19:15:46 <TrueBrain> and I am not going to implement it again :P
19:16:00 <andythenorth_> stuff and things
19:16:53 <TrueBrain> with RPN it is easy enough to do it yourself
19:16:58 <TrueBrain> saves me from dealing with a 0..255 bla :P
19:17:19 <andythenorth_> I mean...we have grfid check and grfversion check for GS
19:17:27 <andythenorth_> but parameters didn't make it so far :)
19:17:54 <andythenorth_> I guess we're in for months of me asking very basic C++ and openttd src questions eh :)
19:18:05 <TrueBrain> why does 60..66 have these offsets? What is the usecase?
19:18:52 <andythenorth_> so you can walk around the layout
19:19:14 <andythenorth_> FIRS uses it for fences for example
19:19:16 <TrueBrain> well, no negative offsets
19:19:24 <TrueBrain> so outside is a bit hard in all sense of the word
19:19:30 <TrueBrain> so how about the town manhattan distance?
19:19:35 <TrueBrain> how is offset important there?
19:19:41 <andythenorth_> oh maybe FIRS doesn't use those
19:19:46 <andythenorth_> those are industry vars
19:19:51 <frosch123> i think some of them were signed
19:19:58 <TrueBrain> lol, yeah, I just spotted some are frosch123 :P
19:20:32 <TrueBrain> I just don't see why it matters whether you check one tile vs the other of distance to town?
19:20:35 <TrueBrain> is that really relevant?
19:20:55 <frosch123> maybe you can triangulate the position of the town, if you measure the distance from 3 tiles
19:21:56 <andythenorth_> I'm unclear why these vars are useful
19:21:58 <frosch123> TrueBrain: where is the distance-to-town in 60?
19:22:02 <andythenorth_> not seeing I've ever used them yet?
19:22:14 <frosch123> var60 is mostly for construction check
19:22:24 <frosch123> like those ecs castles
19:22:49 <andythenorth_> maybe it lets you change production if center tile is too far from town
19:24:14 <frosch123> no idea, those vars were added before i joined, so they must be for ECS
19:24:23 <andythenorth_> these don't look like nonsense, but they don't look massively useful
19:24:38 <TrueBrain> I think I will just force it to 0, and await feedback on it :D
19:24:41 <andythenorth_> I could guess some use cases, but eh
19:25:55 <frosch123> oh, it's also possible that at that time just noone had any idea about newgrf
19:26:22 <TrueBrain> if we in this comity can agree it is pointless and "0" is fine too, works for me :P
19:26:27 <frosch123> 2007 added some weird things to newgrf, which already existed elsewhere, just noone knew after patchman elft
19:27:32 <andythenorth_> 'can always extend later' is a very powerful tool for progress :P
19:27:51 <TrueBrain> so offsets .. hmm ...
19:27:57 <TrueBrain> industry:tile_id 1 [] 2 []
19:28:01 <frosch123> ah, i can't wait until tb arrives at vehicles :) industries will appear so well-designed then
19:28:09 <TrueBrain> or industry:tile_id 0x12 []
19:28:57 <frosch123> nml has built-ins for that stuff
19:29:15 <frosch123> so industry:tile_id 1 2 _built_in_tileoffset() []
19:29:38 <TrueBrain> lol, so tempted to use that name now :P
19:29:52 <TrueBrain> but yeah, sounds good
19:30:51 <frosch123> hmm, gcc prefix is __builtin_ though :p
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19:35:57 <frosch123> RPN is weird... builtins appear to be just string-replacements
19:36:44 <frosch123> s/__builtin_tileoffset/0xF & 4 << |/g
19:38:02 <frosch123> hmm, that is only one int4 cast, it needs two
19:38:34 <frosch123> do you have some stack-rotation instructions?
19:39:27 <TrueBrain> but I guess I need to allow functions to return values ... I can now, pretty easy now honestly. So I can just create a library of sorts that is always made available :D
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19:39:44 <TrueBrain> but first ... how do I make this enum available in RPN, without duplicating it all .. hmm
19:41:09 <frosch123> which enum this time?
19:42:13 <TrueBrain> I can use Rust magic
19:43:20 <frosch123> ah, okay, i assumed you were copying lists from nml :) i wanted to suggest to parse ottd source instead :p
19:45:31 <TrueBrain> pff, I am not crazy! :D
19:46:16 <TrueBrain> okay, FIRS economy compiles .... :o :o
19:46:32 <TrueBrain> now I need to make some other modifications before it becomes useful .. like, a primary that accepts cargo
19:48:33 <frosch123> the sliders in truegrf do not work for me
19:48:54 <frosch123> they do not store their value when moved, so later revert to the old value
19:49:05 <TrueBrain> they should update the text while sliding
19:49:08 <TrueBrain> that doesn't happen either?
19:49:23 <frosch123> nope, browser too old?
19:49:26 <TrueBrain> any errors on your console?
19:50:14 <frosch123> it's so empty that i am unsure whether i am using it correctly :p
19:50:26 <frosch123> usually there is always some error shown :p
19:51:01 <TrueBrain> will check that out in the weekend or something :)
19:51:29 <frosch123> hmm, chromium doesn't work either
19:52:21 <TrueBrain> weird ... didn't touch that lately :P
19:52:28 <andythenorth> frosch123 I already gave TrueBrain the vehicle refittability diagram, but he thought it was april fool's
19:53:08 <frosch123> andythenorth: would anyone notice if you used it as cargoflow graph in some economy?
19:53:17 <andythenorth> XIS users might not :)
19:53:35 <andythenorth> it is considerably cleaner than FIRS Extreme was
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20:11:01 <TrueBrain> does it add new settings?
20:15:34 <TrueBrain> right .. can I now export FIRS economy per industry, is the question .. lets find out!
20:18:07 <TrueBrain> can't actually remember what economy part I converted :P
20:18:18 <TrueBrain> I think only primary industries
20:21:11 <TrueBrain> a Bulk Terminal does 272 tonnes of aluminium on game-start
20:22:44 <andythenorth> it's probably correct though
20:23:06 <TrueBrain> I just don't randomize yet
20:23:10 <TrueBrain> that is the main difference
20:23:35 <TrueBrain> and because secondary industries aren't working, you can't make engineering supplies .. so I cannot test if it actually works :D
20:25:03 <TrueBrain> now to figure out why sliders stopped working .. really odd
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20:40:26 <TrueBrain> right, guess this weekend I will convert secondary and tertiary economy from FIRS .. so I can playtest if RPN is actually working :D
20:41:36 <TrueBrain> also really curious if I can now make the Bulk Terminal be placed in the right position .. but that requires callbacks on tiles, not industry .. which is a bit tricky atm :D
20:44:24 <TrueBrain> frosch123: deployed new version, should fix sliders :D
20:46:29 <frosch123> aw, i had hopes i would understand the diff
20:46:44 <TrueBrain> the diff is really easy :P But why it is needed, I do not know :)
20:46:50 <TrueBrain> Svelte binding, that is all :) Svelte is nice :)
20:47:30 <TrueBrain> "random_switch" <- I was not allowed to implement that, right? :D
20:47:36 <frosch123> hmm, the gh deploy action is done, yet truegrf is down for me :/
20:47:49 <TrueBrain> you are not wrong; that is a white screen
20:47:59 <frosch123> TrueBrain: you use var 5F instead
20:48:28 <frosch123> triggers are a separate lesson on their own
20:49:41 <frosch123> well, the thing with random-switch is... it is bad in nfo... but nml makes it worse :p
20:51:10 <frosch123> in this case you would use "var5F & 0xF" which gives you 16 random cases, and then you assign them to match the desired probabilities
20:51:14 <TrueBrain> hmm .. seems that the wrong folder got pushed to GitHub pages .. what is going on there .. hmm ..
20:51:20 <TrueBrain> frosch123: sounds good to me, tnx :D
20:52:45 <TrueBrain> don't you just hate when locally something works that remotely doesn't :P
20:52:54 <frosch123> oh wait, i always get var5F wrong, you need some addition shift by 8
20:56:45 * andythenorth did not patch GS yet :P
21:02:51 <TrueBrain> ah .. one of my dependencies broke a certain setting ... lets see if that can be fixed easily :D
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21:15:48 <supermop_work> kind of need to model things in 3d to trace for all these cylindrical building types
21:17:55 <TrueBrain> I love the changelog ... markdown escaping going wrong :D
21:18:43 <TrueBrain> right, sleepy time!
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23:40:47 <Gustavo6046> What if information screens used more icons, with tooltips to explain what they meant?
23:40:54 <Gustavo6046> Then again, icons can be too abstract
23:41:00 <Gustavo6046> I mean like, what would be a running cost icon?
23:41:27 <Gustavo6046> Or a tractive effort icon?
23:41:35 <Gustavo6046> What the heck does tractive effort even mean in practice?
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