IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-01-18
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01:13:48 <supermop_Home> should I draw the last two tropic offices next, even though the base sprites are not bad? or the vertical tube building? or the HQs?
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01:22:34 <supermop_Home> is the most salient feature of the vertical tube building that it's: A) Round, A')Not just round but specifically a cylinder, B)Weird looking in general, or C) that it has an unusual expressed structure, in an Archigram sort of way (with unusual contructio
01:22:45 <supermop_Home> construction stages
01:23:41 <supermop_Home> I'd say A is sort of important, but that it is mostly B and C
01:24:32 <supermop_Home> as its really the first (only?) post 1994/5 building in the game, so it originally functions as a "wow now you are in the future" signifier
01:25:33 <supermop_Home> and the weird hanging structure seems to be a nod to Archigram, but also Foster and Rogers - a sort of specifically British idea of futurism
01:26:13 <supermop_Home> I love the sentiment behind it, but man do I hate that sprite
01:30:14 <supermop_Home> the problem with any fun and playful building in the base set is that it generally gets built ad naseum
01:31:40 <supermop_Home> You could say, redesign it to just be a more normal but round building - that way it will look different, but not crazy.
01:32:25 <supermop_Home> but a city full of boring plain cylindrical buildings will still look stupid without any of the fun of it being crazy
01:33:52 <supermop_Home> probably the best course of action is just drawing it has a pretty boring early 2000s rectangular building, but that seems to defy the spirit of being a base set
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03:07:51 <Gustavo6046> <supermop_Home> is the most salient feature of the vertical tube building that it's: A) Round [...]
03:07:56 <Gustavo6046> Ah yes, tubes are round
03:08:06 <Gustavo6046> sorry, it just sounds kinda funny out of context
03:08:27 <Gustavo6046> Also, reiterating a question from earlier that I don't think got answered
03:08:29 <Gustavo6046> <Gustavo6046> What AIs are compatible with both industry replacement and 2cc vehicle NewGRFs?
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08:50:27 * andythenorth might be about to discover log O(n) or something
08:51:11 <andythenorth> if I build a linkgraph of p edges between n nodes
08:51:12 * peter1138 needs to discover healthy living agin
08:51:35 <andythenorth> healthy living in January involves eating carefully and doing a few stretches
08:52:06 <andythenorth> maybe a walk to the shop
08:53:09 <andythenorth> anyway I need some kind of graph traversing thing
08:53:14 <peter1138> Unfortunately the last time I lost any weight was because I was cycling 250km every week and counting calories... And I can't do that again...
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08:55:09 <andythenorth> because life reasons?
08:58:02 <peter1138> I no longer have a commute that forces me to go out whatever the weather, and I went a bit mental with the counting.
08:59:32 <andythenorth> oh yeah working at home
08:59:53 <andythenorth> I used to do enough walking meetings that I'd wear out shoes
09:00:03 <andythenorth> now I don't even wear shoes
09:00:15 <andythenorth> I haven't left my kitchen table for 20 months
09:03:10 <andythenorth> I need to learn about how GS blocks I think
09:04:02 <andythenorth> looks like I can't run housekeeping functions on every tick because other functions will take many more ticks to complete
09:04:06 <andythenorth> e.g. pathfinding
09:12:36 * andythenorth must to grown up work
09:12:44 <andythenorth> planting pylons on the map in a train game is not that
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13:52:41 <andythenorth> "squirrel depth first search"
13:52:50 <andythenorth> just gets me a lot of google results about how squirrels find nuts
13:53:11 <andythenorth> I want to resolve if a graph connects all possible nodes
13:53:28 <andythenorth> no max number of edges per node
13:53:36 <andythenorth> min number of edges is 1
13:54:13 <andythenorth> I have a naive approach which is start at one node, and build connections directly to all others
13:54:42 <andythenorth> another naive approach is to cycle through each node, and build 1 edge to the nearest unconnected node
13:54:57 <andythenorth> repeat until all nodes are connected
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14:31:43 <andythenorth> that page says that's the most appropriate graph approach for cable and utility networks :)
14:31:58 <andythenorth> so should work for connecting power stations to each
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14:40:44 <peter1138> Sometimes I wish I could have constructors as part of an interface...
14:41:17 <peter1138> Probably means I need to redesign...
14:45:43 <supermop_Home> how weird does the weird tube building need to be
14:50:05 <supermop_Home> I've spent the last 12 years wanting to make a metabolist inspired base set or town set, and here I am contemplating making one of the two metabolist inspired buildings in the game into something totally mundane
14:52:16 <reeeco> andythenorth: you could use google search opeator 'site:foo' .. if you have desired sites to search
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14:56:30 <peter1138> Meh, Activator.CreateInstance(type, args) definitely feels wrong.
14:56:43 <FLHerne> supermop_Home: Pretty weird, I think
14:56:49 <FLHerne> everyone loves the weird tube building
15:13:43 <supermop_Home> FLHerne is it most important that it be weird as in different than the other building around it, or different than the buildings that came before it?
15:14:51 <supermop_Home> and do people like this building? I honestly didn't know... despite loving the probably real life inspiration for it, I always disliked the sprite
15:15:50 <supermop_Home> especially in ogfx, the simon foster one is cute at least
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15:31:30 <FLHerne> supermop_Home: I remember seeing (on TT-Forums/Reddit) love expressed for the tubular building in particular
15:32:02 <FLHerne> probably mostly because it's unique, but it does look quite nice IMO
15:32:05 <supermop_Home> basically neither approach really fits 'hawaii'.. there are round buildings there but more like low-rise offices from the 60s-70s
15:33:29 <supermop_Home> and there are rounded sleek buildings from around 2000, but pretty much normal 2000s condos
15:34:54 <supermop_Home> there are a few buildings more spiritually close in structure, round and otherwise, from Japan and Europe in the 70s
15:36:09 <supermop_Home> and there are some neither tubular nor structurally weird buildings in Honolulu from the 80s and 90s that are unabashedly weird and futuristic in style
15:43:50 <supermop_Home> 60s-70s BMW building - probable inspiration for original sprite, actually is a suspended structure - wrong era, too distinctive: data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAoGCBUVExcVFRUYGBcZGiMdGhkaGyUjHRwfIx8jHBwaHRwkHy0kGiEoHRwgJDUkKCwuMjIyISE3PDcxOysxMjEBCwsLDw4PHBERHTMpISgxMTExMTExMTExMTExMTExMTExMTExMTExMTExMTExMTExMTExMTExMTExMTEuMTExMf/AABEIAR4AsAMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAbAAACAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAEBQIDBgEHAP/EAEcQ
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15:44:17 <LordAro> supermop_Home: well done
15:44:58 <LordAro> s'alright, you were killed after 5 lines
15:45:18 <supermop_Home> haha well on my end it was like 100
15:45:56 <FLHerne> supermop_Home: The Tokyo one is vaguely similar to the other weird OTTD tower
15:46:11 <FLHerne> although the OTTD one has lots more blocks
15:47:01 <FLHerne> 60s one looks almost like a cylindrical version of the square OTTD 60s block
15:48:27 <FLHerne> supermop_Home: I think it's likely based at least in part on the Rotunda in Birmingham for i in range(len(digits - 1)
15:48:48 <supermop_Home> the one I tried to post was the bmw HQ, which I had heard was one of the things that inspired foster
15:48:51 <andythenorth> chances I can persuade anyone to add a minimum spanning tree graph solver to the core game?
15:49:15 <andythenorth> with parameters for edge weight e.g. 'penalise cities' etc
15:49:30 <supermop_Home> FLHerne that Birmingham building looks pretty conventional, apart from being round
15:50:25 <supermop_Home> the shizuoka tower is contemporaneous to the nakagin capsule tower, that the capsule tower in game is based on
15:52:43 <FLHerne> I doubt there's any real-world precedent for hanging a tower building from cables :p
15:52:56 <FLHerne> I guess Skylon is probably the closest thing
15:53:06 <supermop_Home> BMW headquarters!
15:53:22 <supermop_Home> its cylindrical units suspended from above
15:54:15 <supermop_Home> you certainly couldn't do it with only two cables like in the sprite... people on the bottom floor could run back and forth to get the whole tower swinging
15:54:45 <FLHerne> it's not very apparent from the aerial views
15:54:57 <FLHerne> and that would be FUN!
15:55:26 <supermop_Home> unfortunately its not an animated building
15:56:01 <FLHerne> Not really a building, but that tensegrity layout should be stable enough for one
15:56:11 <FLHerne> if you ignore practicality
15:59:04 <supermop_Home> it should have 3 or 4 columns instead of the 2 it does.. and some way to get into the building from the ground
15:59:45 <supermop_Home> I guess the sprite disappoints from an archigram style perspective because the tube itself is so plain
16:00:58 <supermop_Home> and those architects would have visually expressed the circulation too - stairs elevators, ductwork
16:01:50 <supermop_Home> i guess there is also the weirdness of looking at 2000 as the future 20+ years on
16:02:07 <supermop_Home> most architecture in the early 2000s was pretty boring
16:03:31 <supermop_Home> so now you are are playing the game era similar to the 70s-80s on the original game, with these wild futurist buildings
16:04:08 <supermop_Home> like 'here is the train i remember taking as a child, driving past this futurist setting'
16:14:22 <andythenorth> well this is all very interesting, but I am a terrible programmer :P
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18:57:42 <andythenorth> so how would I start making a minimum spanning tree?
18:57:52 <TrueBrain> by planting some seeds
18:58:02 <TrueBrain> you are very welcome
18:58:07 <andythenorth> not the answer I expected
18:58:17 <andythenorth> but in the same spirit as what I expected
18:59:33 <andythenorth> but I can't find part 2 :P
19:00:01 <andythenorth> the implementation is not in part 1
19:00:51 <glx> doesn't seem to have a part 2 yet
19:02:16 <_dp_> part 1 links to a quite fast but complex algo for spanning tree
19:02:23 <andythenorth> some of the AIs might have this already
19:04:58 <_dp_> why AIs do spanning tree though, makes no sense with openttd economy
19:11:19 <_dp_> wow, PathZilla actually does delaunay triangulation
19:12:24 <frosch123> afaik all the town-road-network ais do delaunay
19:12:45 <frosch123> those fake ai/gs, which just build roads for the sake of building a public road network
19:14:21 <_dp_> nah, I checked CityConnector but it seems pretty simple
19:15:16 <_dp_> EMST doesn't even make that good of a public network
19:15:48 <andythenorth> totally unrelated, Zutty's forum avatar is from a video I was watching earlier :P
19:15:52 <andythenorth> 'my lovely horse'
19:16:05 <_dp_> MST makes sense if roads are made of gold xD
19:16:20 <andythenorth> I am digging through pathzilla trying to find the MST
19:16:26 <andythenorth> but it's not obvious in my search
19:16:32 <andythenorth> or the google code version is missing things
19:16:36 <andythenorth> lots of empty dirs
19:17:22 <_dp_> andythenorth, in archive it's just pathzilla/graph/impl
19:17:42 <andythenorth> bananas version has it all :)
19:18:38 <andythenorth> I have no idea whether MST is what I need, just suggested by googling
19:20:59 <_dp_> for electricity MST certainly makes more sense than for roads
19:21:02 <andythenorth> hmm MinimumSpanTree() doesn't seem to be called
19:21:47 * andythenorth was hoping to cargo-cult an implementation
19:30:49 <_dp_> andythenorth, why are you placing pylons btw, just for the eye-candy?
19:31:01 <_dp_> I though of doing power lines with tram type at some point xD
19:31:22 <andythenorth> mostly for the lolz
19:31:35 <andythenorth> seems like the kind of thing nobody has tried yet
19:31:48 <andythenorth> it's only just possible recently
19:31:59 <andythenorth> with your PR for objects, and the newgrf check
19:32:50 <andythenorth> how slow are the in-game pathfinders?
19:33:20 <andythenorth> the GS road pathfinder takes months to connect two nearby towns
19:34:41 <_dp_> in-game pathfinder still can't route ships without buoys :p
19:40:16 <andythenorth> can we do something about selecting objects?
19:40:35 <andythenorth> not sure why the string matching fails
19:46:11 * andythenorth looks how GS detects grf industries
19:52:36 <andythenorth> oh maybe it doesn't
19:52:42 <andythenorth> maybe I was just lucky so far
20:11:31 <andythenorth> ok so GetIndustryID() returns the internal OpenTTD ID of the industry?
20:11:39 <andythenorth> not the grf-defined ID?
20:13:26 <frosch123> yes, do we need to scramble them to avoid any confusion?
20:14:26 <_dp_> pretty much everything id in GS is internal, otherwise it wouldn't work with multiple grfs
20:16:21 <andythenorth> for industry I can resolve this by fingerprinting on cargos
20:16:39 <andythenorth> but objects...there's nothing to fingerprint on?
20:17:33 <andythenorth> actually the fingerprinting is silly
20:18:38 <andythenorth> functions for grfid and industry-id-in-grf are not going to hurt anything
20:18:53 <andythenorth> except that I can't think of a name :P
20:19:00 <andythenorth> GetIndustryID is already taken
20:19:13 <andythenorth> optional params?
20:22:34 <frosch123> GSIndustry.GetNewGRFID could return a tuple of grfid+localid
20:22:44 <frosch123> no idea whether we can return tuples easily
20:23:00 * andythenorth was looking at GetIndustryIDAtOffset in grf
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20:24:31 <andythenorth> most things seem to return a single value
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20:24:39 <andythenorth> but can that be an array?
20:26:37 <andythenorth> random browsing of nogo spec suggests that 'return one thing' is the prevailing approach
20:28:11 <Rubidium> why not return some object, that might be reused for other NewGRFIDs?
20:30:47 <andythenorth> GSGRFItem or something?
20:33:05 <nielsm> I am confused by people who confuse "not inefficient" for being the same as "optimized to the highest level possible, every last pixel of running distance squeezed out"
20:33:31 <nielsm> or maybe do not understand the concept of "good enough for most people"
20:34:54 <nielsm> "you must be out of your mind that you are not investing days to learn the art of constructing computers using pieces of railroad tracks and color light signals"
20:35:15 <nielsm> in response to people being happy users of path signals
20:41:15 <nielsm> JGR thread on tt-forums
20:43:06 <_dp_> nielsm, where did you find anyone calling them inefficient?
20:44:45 <nielsm> yeah I'm pulling a bit of a strawman here, but when I see someone arguing that the two_way_eol thing doesn't work with path signals that to me just screams "I don't understand anything less than hyper-optimized"
20:46:20 <_dp_> idk, for a signal discussion that thread seems relatively reasonable so far imo
20:46:53 <nielsm> the argument that path signals are bad because they don't allow making the same constructions as block signals are being abused for is completely missing the point that you can still build crash-free deadlock-free networks using only path signals
20:47:28 <frosch123> ah, i wondered when someone would complain that you cannot disable the signal gui. there was already some drama 15 years ago when it was added, so i was kind of surprised when noone noticed when that setting was gone
20:48:07 <FLHerne> You can, but I doubt you can make a self-regulating network with path signals
20:48:26 <FLHerne> not that that's essential to very many people
20:48:35 <nielsm> self-regulating networks is also well past "average player" territory
20:48:46 <FLHerne> but there are meaningful end goals that can be achieved only using block signals
20:49:18 <FLHerne> The only "average player" use of block signals I know of is the prio merge
20:49:51 <FLHerne> That's very useful even in my very unoptimised [or, rather, optimised for 'realism'] networks
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21:12:37 <andythenorth> ok so maybe something like ScriptTile, but for GRFItem
21:13:44 <andythenorth> or extend GSNewGRF?
21:14:07 <andythenorth> GSNewGRF.GetItemID()
21:14:17 <andythenorth> GSNewGRF.GetGRFID()
21:14:55 <andythenorth> no, GSNewGRF.GetItemGRFID() is better
21:24:26 <andythenorth> how is GS extended even
21:26:45 <TrueBrain> w00p, loop support is done!
21:26:51 <TrueBrain> took only 150 lines of code
21:27:09 <andythenorth> how many of them were loops?
21:27:49 <andythenorth> while (loops >= done) { return "congrats" }
21:31:39 <andythenorth> hmm it's not trivial for GS to resolve generic grf items
21:34:36 <TrueBrain> okay .. 95% of the FIRS economy is online and kicking ..
21:34:48 <TrueBrain> I am missing industry:production_level .. that can't be hard to add :P
21:34:54 <TrueBrain> and ranges don't work yet
21:34:59 <TrueBrain> but that is for tomorrow :D
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21:39:51 <TrueBrain> after that it is actual testing if it behaves as expected .. very curious about that :D
21:40:09 <TrueBrain> as it requires actual playtesting .. scary shit :P
21:40:15 <andythenorth> release it as FIRS 4.5.0
21:40:18 <andythenorth> see if anyone notices
21:40:29 <TrueBrain> docks in the middle of the sea
21:40:34 <TrueBrain> sorry, Bulk Terminals
21:40:44 <TrueBrain> but ... I should now also be able to use RPN to restrict the placement correctly
21:41:32 <andythenorth> RPN is the best RPN
21:41:43 <TrueBrain> it for sure solves a lot of problems :P
21:42:03 <TrueBrain> anyway, now zzz time :)
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21:50:06 <andythenorth> if we do something like GSNewGRF.GetItemID(), it will need to accept a range of types as param, e.g. industry, tile, vehicle, object
21:54:32 <andythenorth> the alternative seems to be extend all the types, e.g. GSIndustryType, GSObjectType to have methods to get the grfid and the id of them item in the grf
21:55:12 <andythenorth> also the names seem to be impossible
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