IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-01-17
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00:07:07 <glx> I can see a ternary at the begining _dp_
00:08:45 <glx> 128 and 129 are guard and !guard, same for 131/132 and 134/135
00:08:59 <_dp_> glx, yeah, but that's harder to unfold
00:09:44 <_dp_> never know when temporary is gonna get used again
00:11:24 <glx> lol I think there is a (construction_state != 3) ? 1 : 0
00:22:36 <_dp_> in general nml va2 code seems very bloated, simplest expressions explode into a few dozen opcodes
00:23:36 <_dp_> because first it doesn't encourage optimal code, then it doesn't optimize what it got, then it expands operators and now needs shitton of temporaries to calculate all that
00:29:36 <supermop_Home> anyone here have a Nikon f100?
01:03:10 <_dp_> I'd say it's more readable in nfo xD
01:22:44 <glx> I already have the nml version (more than 215k lines)
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02:41:07 <Gustavo6046> wiscii, how are you? :D
02:41:56 <wiscii> i was just looking at odd NewGFX
02:45:42 <Gustavo6046> hm? not that I know
02:57:15 <wiscii> so what are you up to ?
03:04:29 <Gustavo6046> maybe revisit that server
03:12:43 <wiscii> you can have a copy of a save file from practically any year but i've finished with that one
03:14:40 <wiscii> we could start from scratch ?
03:15:07 <wiscii> i really don't know much about online with this game
03:15:33 <wiscii> too many things can go wrog
03:15:48 <Gustavo6046> we can start from scratch
03:16:11 <Gustavo6046> did you see the save file I posted yesterday before sleep?
03:16:30 <wiscii> do you have any preferred settings ? like i said .. noob here
03:17:10 <wiscii> there was a lot of chat here today for the devs
03:25:38 <Gustavo6046> I like slightly larger max. station spread and train size limit
03:26:52 <wiscii> Gustavo6046: are you able to host a server ?
03:27:17 <Gustavo6046> wiscii, no, I am behind a CGNAT
03:27:26 <Gustavo6046> I am publicly reachable through IPv6 and Yggdrasil, though.
03:32:41 <wiscii> if you have a preferred save, i could host it for a while
03:34:53 <Gustavo6046> I can show you mine
03:35:05 <Gustavo6046> the filename is clobbered, a more meaningful one is 'Bloggs & Co., 1987-12-19.sav'
03:38:37 <wiscii> wow .. that is a LOT of NewGFX settings!!!
03:39:03 <wiscii> this could take a while ..
03:39:23 <wiscii> there are quite a few i don't recognise
03:39:55 <wiscii> ok .. seems to be ok-ish
03:40:10 <Gustavo6046> I should have used trains
03:40:30 <Gustavo6046> the industries here behave in interesting and unexpected ways
03:41:31 <wiscii> ok, it should be up as before 'tct' with my name = pw
03:42:08 <wiscii> well .. not yet but soon
03:48:01 <Gustavo6046> TrueBrain, is there any prospects for a future continent-based terrain generation?
03:49:00 <wiscii> a completely different style of game to me -- roads!
03:49:25 <Gustavo6046> a lot of those should use trains instead
03:49:27 <Gustavo6046> especially some of the freight
03:49:49 <wiscii> i honestly do not believe i have ever tried that way before, i start with trains
03:49:59 <wiscii> how short sighted of me!
03:50:28 <wiscii> i may have tried once but something annoyed me
03:53:16 <wiscii> Purr City East looks deserted
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03:54:42 <wiscii> yeah .. 884 vehicles !
03:55:04 <wiscii> that's why you go to trains in the end
03:57:32 <Gustavo6046> what are trams good for again? slower speed but higher cargo capacity?
03:57:40 <wiscii> it's cool, i have tried something similar
03:57:52 <wiscii> but you have some cool GFXs
04:14:57 <wiscii> looks like a bit of a jam in Griffey Valley
04:15:13 <wiscii> so does the server, sorry
04:21:41 <Gustavo6046> see you! take care!
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10:48:35 <andythenorth> do we think GSCargoMonitor is expensive?
10:49:13 <andythenorth> I might try monitoring % passengers transported monthly, by putting a cargo monitor in every town and walking over them
10:50:21 <Cursarion> oh, there'll be a fix for the game time thing? neat
10:51:36 <FLHerne> well, people have been writing patches to modify that for years
10:51:59 <FLHerne> probably too early to say whether this one will satisfy all the different views on how to do it
10:55:32 <LordAro> "will" is probably a bit strong
11:16:28 <Cursarion> one fix to rule them all
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12:03:20 <andythenorth_> ok so I want to teach GS to build pylon objects between power station and certain industries
12:03:53 <andythenorth_> it's pathfinding, plus some book-keeping about which tiles belong to which edge
12:04:38 <andythenorth_> I have no idea how to store edges
12:04:55 <andythenorth_> this must be a solved problem in programming?
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12:22:52 <andythenorth_> they need stored so they can be removed if one of the industries is removed
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13:48:53 <andythenorth> does the game have pathfinders that could be exposed to NoGo / NoAI?
13:49:15 <andythenorth> me writing my own A* or something in squirrel seems like it will go badly lolz
13:56:12 <andythenorth> I looked at SuperLib for roads
13:56:58 <andythenorth> but it would need refactoring from roads to [other things]
13:57:15 <LordAro> there's a generic a* library for AIs, at least
13:57:24 <LordAro> and indeed specific rail & road libraries
13:57:35 <LordAro> probably not been "duplicated" for GS
14:08:27 <andythenorth> or I didn't find it yet...
14:45:26 <_dp_> there is no pathfinder in gs api but there is a priority queue now
14:48:03 <supermop_Home> can objects be placed after map creation by newgrf? or only by gs?
14:48:29 <supermop_Home> I assume andy wants to plant transmission lines
14:49:08 <supermop_Home> we need NewFields
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15:11:16 <_dp_> even gs only got object placement in 12.0
15:17:04 <supermop_Home> fields would be nice for ranches, forests, and national parks I guess
15:17:57 <supermop_Home> or beach industries
15:19:35 <supermop_Home> mostly i'd just like differentiated pineapple vs sugarcane fields
15:22:55 <supermop_Home> would also be neat to have farms close or drop production when they get too hemmed in by towns
15:25:48 <supermop_Home> well that's all getting ahead of myself
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17:02:14 <supermop_Home> oops I just found out I am supposed to work today
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18:10:08 <andythenorth> can we have a pathfinder in the GS API? :P
18:10:20 <andythenorth> or I can try and adapt the superlib road one, but eh
18:10:37 <andythenorth> also is there any way to attach buttons to e.g. industries?
18:10:58 <nielsm> no way to add buttons to industries, no
18:11:35 <nielsm> for GS, you'll have to have the player start the interaction in a storybook page
18:12:40 * andythenorth considering various ways to connect power stations to substations
18:12:44 <andythenorth> or provide power in towns
18:13:09 <andythenorth> one option is GS just fills in pylon objects where needed, no player interaction except placing substation industry
18:13:30 <andythenorth> another option is storybook gives a list of all substations, then the option to connect each one to a power station
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18:50:24 <andythenorth> anyway first a pathfinder :P
18:55:49 <bkilm[m]> Does anybody know of another business simulator game that reminds you of Transport Tycoon but of orders of magnitudes less complexity (and micromanagement)?
18:56:00 <Gustavo6046> unfortunately my body has never heard of circadian rhythm
18:56:16 <andythenorth> Pocket Trains :P
18:56:56 <bkilm[m]> Thanks, I'll have a look for some inspiration. Although, I only play FOSS games. 🤷
18:57:00 <Gustavo6046> Hmm, business in OpenTTD is a bit too simplistic to me. People play it because they like trains, I play it because I like the intricacy of people moving around. I would be interested if there was a way to add depth to the business model, perhaps even in such a way that the player can modify its modus operandi in some ways.
18:59:34 <LordAro> I have caused GNAT to hang by having a short git commit hash that could be interpreted as an integer
19:00:52 <bkilm[m]> Gustavo6046: Sure, trains and trucks are fun to look at, but at the end of the game, what matters is only whether you could achieve exponential growth on your charts given a finite amount of loan. Everything else is just eye candy.
19:01:03 * andythenorth has a look at graph.aystar
19:01:15 <andythenorth> I suspect pylons are a terrible idea because they're discontinuous
19:01:24 <andythenorth> so they could e.g. be either side of a skyscraper
19:01:55 <Gustavo6046> that's what I like to read!
19:02:17 <bkilm[m]> Gustavo6046: I mean, just for kicks, I once played an OpenTTD game where I build almost nothing (just a single bus serving two stops to keep me from going bankrupt). I only bought and sold stocks and could actually win at the end, but it took quite a few decades.
19:02:59 <Gustavo6046> you mean loaned and paid off?
19:03:15 <bkilm[m]> With 8 starting players (all bots, but I preselected to only enable the smartest bots), it was quite easy to get into top 3 within 10-20 years, but then fighting the Big Oil required quite some amount of strategy and watching the stock exchange charts carefully.
19:03:46 <Gustavo6046> you can buy and sell stock... in OpenTTD?
19:04:09 <bkilm[m]> I thought that was the main goal of the game 😉
19:04:12 <andythenorth> but maybe the GS can avoid town zones
19:04:19 <Gustavo6046> I didn't know that!
19:04:27 <andythenorth> and maybe the objects can adapt to neighbouring tiles
19:04:38 <Gustavo6046> All I do is buy a fun network, pay off my loan, then gradually expand the transport network
19:05:06 <Gustavo6046> What AIs are compatible with both industry replacement and 2cc vehicle NewGRFs?
19:05:06 <andythenorth> anyway it's way more interesting trying to build stuff like power lines in GS + grf
19:06:09 <bkilm[m]> Gustavo6046: For example, their stock can go up and down pretty sharply as they build out their networks or are effected by recession, subsidies, productions downturn, UFO and stuff like that. Buy when it is down and sell when it is high. Follow the news promptly. Kind of analogous with real life.
19:07:41 <bkilm[m]> By the way, in most cases, you must not buy 100% of any company until the very end. Until you own only up to 75%, they are micromanaging instead of you and if you have invested right, their growth brings you income.
19:09:09 <bkilm[m]> Again, when playing this game, I didn't have to build or micromanage anything basically. I did fix a UFO crash site once just out of boredom, though, but with my economy, the effect wasn't really noticeable. Too bad I didn't do a recording, but I didn't know it was going to end so well.
19:10:09 <LordAro> sounds like a super boring way of playing the game, to me
19:10:14 <LordAro> but who am i to argue?
19:10:32 <bkilm[m]> Yeah, I probably wouldn't repeat that 😄
19:11:19 <bkilm[m]> It was exciting at a different level though - following nervously whether the given event will result in the anticipated effect. Kind of like a real stock exchange simulator with real life-like events causing the chart movements.
19:11:52 <Gustavo6046> basically you profit off of other people's work
19:11:55 <Gustavo6046> ah yes, capitalism :p
19:12:15 <bkilm[m]> Just built out a 256+ railway line across a map two years ago! It's so fun to navigate all your town, industries and trains on the same two-lane bus line. Although that was also super boring to build due to the all the terrain work.
19:12:46 <bkilm[m]> Actually, it would be an interesting multi-player component to add: you can't build anything, but could participate in stocks!!
19:13:11 <bkilm[m]> It is rare to see a multi-modal game that you can play at so different levels in real time at once.
19:14:02 <bkilm[m]> Sorry for the typo, it was not two years ago it was two days ago!
19:16:34 <bkilm[m]> By the way, I had to keep open so many windows at the same time (news, disaster inspection live view, running profits, vehicles, company values, current shares overview, the actions of newcomers), I wished OpenTTD had support for multi-monitors.
19:17:50 <wiscii> adding an app-free view port that can be moved to a second screen .. hmm :)
19:18:49 <wiscii> Gustavo6046: i have a very early server up if you like to play
19:20:32 <Gustavo6046> bkilm[m], or docking multiple windows together
19:20:38 <Gustavo6046> wiscii, hello! :D
19:22:13 <wiscii> checkout "The spiffing brit"
19:23:53 <Gustavo6046> he does stuff like idk, exploiting economies in games, or the Steam inventory item market
19:24:04 <Gustavo6046> he once profited off of market manipulation with CS:GO items in Steam
19:24:05 <wiscii> he taught me how to beat AOEii
19:24:45 <Gustavo6046> I also watched his video on the cookie clicker thing
19:25:31 <wiscii> oh yeah, i rember that, to make magic items like a fork or something
19:27:28 <Gustavo6046> I also remember when he made a video on the GameStop stocks ruse
19:30:57 <wiscii> bkilm[m]: guidelines ?
19:32:33 <LordAro> bkilm[m]: if it doubt, the wiki is out of date :p
19:33:57 <wiscii> the "rules" are still generally valid ..
19:39:06 <wiscii> what a pita - i tried the "Apollo NewGFX" and some eye-candy stuff. There is no grain hopper in the current game and cannot be refitted
19:39:21 <bkilm[m]> Yes, I ask because I'm not a very experience player, but I added some cheats in there just recently.
19:39:43 <bkilm[m]> And I also noticed that certain servers share their code of conducts of sorts via short messages that scroll away very quickly.
19:40:48 <bkilm[m]> It would be nice to have a section that at least lists the kind of behavior that some of the servers may enforce. If you played on a lot of servers before, you probably have more data point than I do.
19:48:34 <wiscii> bkilm[m]: i guess all those public servers have rules ..
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19:50:13 <bkilm[m]> Yes, and it would be nice to document that in the wiki for other server operators.
19:50:57 <bkilm[m]> For example, we played on a server where there were no rules pinned, that could have been interpreted to mean that industry competition is allowed, while it should be just the opposite by default (from the perspective of having fun together).
19:58:34 <wiscii> i wouldn't sweat it -- if you win then maybe others will try the same idea ;-)
20:00:53 <wiscii> does anybody know a good font to use in linux for ottd
20:01:15 <wiscii> the only one that works for me is the defult system fallback font
20:01:31 <wiscii> the rest are all hairline thin
20:02:47 <frosch123> "medium_font = DejaVu Sans, bold" + "medium_size = 12"
20:04:01 <wiscii> frosch123: without the quotes, right ?
20:04:26 <frosch123> yes, i think i even put that in the wiki
20:06:40 <wiscii> thanks, that is exactly what i was looking for :)
20:10:36 <andythenorth> right let's see how to aystar
20:11:37 <andythenorth> does anyone get it?
20:16:25 <_dp_> andythenorth, doesn't he just want groundhog as a cheat?
20:16:33 <_dp_> and don't ask me how is that different from a setting :p
20:16:39 <andythenorth> I do not understand
20:16:47 <andythenorth> LC is usually right about something
20:16:53 <andythenorth> but stopped clock twice a day
20:20:09 <supermop_Home> why not just turn on vehicles never expire
20:20:20 <supermop_Home> and not buy any modern trains
20:21:11 <andythenorth> buildings and stuff
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20:24:02 <supermop_Home> use a town set with homogenous buildings?
20:25:45 <andythenorth> hmm how do I use a GS lib?
20:25:59 <andythenorth> I seem to have imported Aystar
20:26:07 <andythenorth> but I can't figure out the lib interface
20:27:16 <andythenorth> programming NoGo is such a guessing game
20:30:36 <andythenorth> so SuperLib is used as e.g.
20:30:36 <andythenorth> Helper <- SuperLib.Helper;
20:30:46 <andythenorth> Aystar <- Aystar.Ayster
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20:31:06 <andythenorth> Aystar.Aystar not found
20:31:15 <andythenorth> Graph.Aystar is not found
20:31:24 <andythenorth> Aystar.Graph.Aystar is not found
20:31:32 <andythenorth> Graph.Aystar.Aystar is not found
20:31:49 <andythenorth> GGA* throws an expression error
20:33:19 <andythenorth> import("graph.aystar", "AyStar", 6);
20:34:14 <_dp_> by far the most popular question on cm server with tech progression is "why no maglev"
20:34:26 <_dp_> it's 2100, ppl want maglev or riot :p
20:35:41 <frosch123> make a railtype grf that switches graphics in some year :p
20:35:42 <supermop_Home> isn't getting better technology the richer/better you play sort of an inverse gameplay curve?
20:35:48 <frosch123> though maglev tracks are really ugly
20:36:10 <supermop_Home> frosch123 zeph's reworked ones in opengfx thread look better
20:36:21 <supermop_Home> but yes, I prefer no maglev
20:36:21 <andythenorth> lol squirrel programming seems much worse than grf
20:36:28 <andythenorth> the language does very poorly for google results
20:36:35 <andythenorth> mostly I get actual squirrels
20:36:45 <supermop_Home> really a GS should take locomotives away from you the better you do
20:36:53 <_dp_> supermop_Home, no, why? it just adds some variety in unlock order
20:37:09 <andythenorth> how do I instantiate a module?
20:37:40 <supermop_Home> "oh you think you're hot shit with your big profitable coal route? Well let's see you do with Kirby pauls only"
20:37:49 <LordAro> andythenorth: are you sure graph.aystar is in gs_libraries, rather than just ai_libraries ?
20:37:55 <LordAro> (or whatever the folders are called)
20:38:05 <andythenorth> the first import doesn't fail
20:38:11 <LordAro> i can't remember how to import libraries, see what aroai did :p
20:38:17 <andythenorth> but I can't reference anything without an assignment
20:38:40 <andythenorth> 2009 'beta state' top google result
20:38:43 <glx> look how the lib imports binary queue
20:39:42 <andythenorth> what's the second param?
20:40:17 <supermop_Home> although, would an isolated island land that has an all powerful transport company making boatloads of money with steam engines ever see any impetus to develop diesels or electrics?
20:40:47 <supermop_Home> the fuel never runs out, the stoker labor is free, no one ever complains about the polution
20:41:01 <glx> pathfinder.road does _aystar_class = import("graph.aystar", "", 6) in Road class
20:41:33 <glx> then this._pathfinder = this._aystar_class(this, this._Cost, this._Estimate, this._Neighbours, this._CheckDirection); in constructor
20:41:48 <LordAro> i think Zuu was the only one to ever use the <- mechanisms
20:42:37 <andythenorth> oh that's interesting
20:42:37 <andythenorth> _aystar_class = import("graph.aystar", "", 6);
20:42:39 <andythenorth> just fails for me
20:42:54 <andythenorth> but works in pathfinder.road
20:43:07 <andythenorth> ok so it needs some scope thing
20:43:17 <andythenorth> squirrel has this weird thing where everything is in a table?
20:43:54 <andythenorth> it's such a cartoon language
20:43:55 <supermop_Home> andythenorth my tiny Hawaii style map with firs, NG trains are just barely hanging on, but looking cute
20:44:04 <andythenorth> local _aystar_class = import("graph.aystar", "", 6);
20:44:12 <andythenorth> is the only way I found so far to not get errors
20:44:22 <andythenorth> what's the weird :: notation that I keep seeing
20:45:18 <frosch123> CityBuilder GS uses aystar
20:45:26 <frosch123> did you check that one already?
20:45:38 <frosch123> whenever i need an example, I just grep in content_download
20:46:00 <andythenorth> I have to use that slots notation for globals I think
20:46:06 <andythenorth> foo <- foo.foo.foo.foo()
20:46:18 <andythenorth> but locals are declared as local = foo
20:46:26 * andythenorth not a good learner
20:47:04 <frosch123> iirc "<-" works always, while "=" fails for undefined variables
20:47:22 <frosch123> definition vs. assignment
20:48:30 <andythenorth> yup, I learn this every 6 months for last 2 years :P
20:48:41 <andythenorth> can we embed Rust in OpenTTD? :P
20:52:27 <andythenorth> ok maybe I just abuse the road pathfinder
20:52:35 <andythenorth> seems Aystar needs a lot of scaffolding I don't have yet
21:01:36 <frosch123> don't scare andy with css guis :p
21:02:00 <andythenorth> doesn't give me a useful result yet
21:03:33 <_dp_> frosch123, css is optional ;)
21:03:54 <_dp_> if anything it's gs that needs css or smth to describe guis, wasm can just call methods directly
21:04:42 <andythenorth> local bar = foo.FindPath(10000);
21:06:12 <andythenorth> what a great community :)
21:13:07 <andythenorth> lol why does opening console change the value of GS constants?
21:13:28 <andythenorth> GIT_VERSION <- "4.4.0-123-g310516fe"; is declared as a constant
21:13:46 <andythenorth> but the GSText display of it increments the value when I open / close console with ~
21:14:50 <glx> maybe just GetString effect
21:19:04 <andythenorth> still null after many months on ffwd
21:19:29 <glx> path from tile 0 to tile 1 ?
21:20:40 <andythenorth> wanted the shortest route :P
21:20:48 <andythenorth> should still return a route of 2 tiles?
21:20:54 <glx> but is there a possible road path from 0 to 1 ?
21:21:54 <glx> road pathfinder "tries" to build road tiles
21:22:05 <andythenorth> so it might be water
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21:24:52 * andythenorth adapted the AI docs example
21:25:22 <andythenorth> wow pathfinding is slow
21:25:26 <andythenorth> 12 months to find a path
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21:29:46 <glx> they also edit many cool games
21:29:59 <TrueBrain> as I said, end of OpenTTD :P
21:30:06 <supermop_Home> I would 100% play a team 17 transit game
21:30:18 <andythenorth> vertigo camera angle though
21:31:38 <wiscii> unlikely to have a "free" play mode (in all sense of the word)
21:37:00 <supermop_Home> need a first person transport game
21:41:41 <andythenorth> if (GSMap.DistanceManhattan(path.GetTile(), par.GetTile()) == 1 ) {
21:41:54 <andythenorth> 'expression expected'
21:45:03 <andythenorth> not convinced that example is useful for my case
21:48:48 <supermop_Home> i'd pay for this thing
21:49:24 <supermop_Home> the bridges remind me of brio
21:53:34 <nielsm> expectation expressed: expression expected
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21:59:13 <_dp_> and Mashinky is finally getting a multiplayer
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22:10:55 <wiscii> i just started a new game but it kept my old selection of cargo type in available trains
22:12:47 <andythenorth> I guess that's working then :D
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22:24:55 * andythenorth now in OpenTTD source
22:25:02 <andythenorth> trying to work out how to choose an object to build
22:25:06 <andythenorth> there seems to be no ID
22:25:11 <andythenorth> and string matching the name is failing
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22:26:49 <andythenorth> how do I select the object to build?
22:28:09 <_dp_> well, you have the list of all objects
22:28:14 <_dp_> idk how you want to select it
22:28:56 <glx> ObjectType API is quite limited
22:28:59 <nielsm> presumably by something like GRFID and an ID within that GRF
22:29:01 <_dp_> some more methods may be needed to navigate that list
22:29:34 <andythenorth> probably GRFID and ID within that GRF
22:30:49 <_dp_> I've no idea how to approach grf-gs interoperability in general
22:31:28 <_dp_> so in that PR I only did the bare minimum
22:31:29 <andythenorth> well the first thing might be to expose a numeric ID if there is one
22:31:37 <andythenorth> yup understood, it's proof of concept :)
22:31:57 <glx> numeric ID is internal to openttd usually
22:32:55 <_dp_> I wouldn't call it PoC as what it does it does fine, just more methods may be needed to use it effectively
22:33:36 <glx> yeah it's possible to build objects, but selection is quite random ;)
22:33:59 <andythenorth> yeah the numeric ID does not match up
22:34:05 <andythenorth> I ran a counter on the list
22:35:12 <glx> but the value depends on other loaded grf, and the load order
22:35:53 <nielsm> yeah if you want a specific object from a specific GRF, you'd need to expose data from the grf_prop member in ObjectSpec
22:36:38 <glx> should be possible as we now expose the grf list to GS
22:37:25 <glx> object class may be a good info too
22:42:05 <andythenorth> lol I eventually got the Auz pylon by guessing IDs
22:42:54 <andythenorth> it's a road pathfinder so it only does 90 degree turns
22:43:11 <andythenorth> it's also avoiding water :P
22:43:56 <nielsm> apparently it can cross 4 tiles, unless there's water between then it can more? :)
22:44:13 <nielsm> the part where it goes past the river
22:44:42 <andythenorth> the road pathfinder seems to understand bridges and tunnels
22:44:56 <andythenorth> and it could build a different object for undersea cables
22:45:05 <andythenorth> this is quite interesting
22:45:11 <andythenorth> most fun I've had since Train Whack
22:45:48 <andythenorth> GS is all very different once you assume the GS and industry grf have shared information
22:46:00 <andythenorth> so the GS actually...knows what things are and what they are for in game
22:47:12 <andythenorth> hmm randomised pylons?
22:47:46 <andythenorth> also the pathfinder is...rather slow
22:48:25 <andythenorth> does the game pathfinder take months? :P
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