IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2021-12-31
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02:10:39 <Gustavo6046_> when using Git to clone something, cloning with git://... rather than https://... tends to be way faster, but (at least with github) seems to prevent me from pushing commits
02:11:35 <Gustavo6046_> anyway I was thinking, does bananas compress mods in it? and/or if openttd uses git to grab them, it could use git:// URIs and possibly do shallow clones
02:11:52 <Gustavo6046_> if it does compress, does it support zstd for OpenTTD versions that support it?
02:12:01 <Gustavo6046_> could negotiate the compression, maybe even as part of the URL :p
02:12:11 <Gustavo6046_> just some thoughts, but probably all redundant
02:12:16 <Gustavo6046_> hang on let me regain my nick
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02:19:20 <Gustavo6046> "Maintenance intervals are in percents" could be renamed to "Maintenance intervals are in percentage points"
02:19:37 <Gustavo6046> usually when you talk about a difference between two percentage values, you're talking about p.p. (percentage points), not % (percentages, themselves)
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02:31:52 <Gustavo6046> one way road hehehehehe
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03:02:35 <Gustavo6046> When a feeder service takes passengers from a bunch of towns to transport them elsewhere, is there a way to make this bidirectional?
03:03:22 <nielsm> no, not without separate stations for pick-up and drop-off
03:04:59 <glx> bananas files are not stored in git, only the database
03:11:33 <Gustavo6046> what if OpenTTD simulated labour, and industries could have people in them?
03:11:43 <Gustavo6046> nielsm, ah, alright, thank you
03:11:45 <Gustavo6046> glx, makes sense! thanks!
03:12:54 <Gustavo6046> er, industries would have not people, but monthly worker commute
03:13:07 <Gustavo6046> and depending on how many passengers you transport to them regularly that can boost production a bit
03:13:10 <glx> IIRC YETI does something like that
03:13:19 <Gustavo6046> also industries that convert between goods types wouldn't do so instantly but rather slowly
03:14:25 <Gustavo6046> I already have FIRS loaded, but that sounds interesting
03:41:14 <Gustavo6046> Oh, I think I remember how to fix this. Add a one tile gap between the station and intersection?
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04:52:04 <Gustavo6046> Trying out cargodist for the first time
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05:06:00 <Gustavo6046> how could I live so long without it
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11:19:49 <TrueBrain> I see tokai wanted to go out with a bang this year :P
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11:39:34 <michi_cc> So, apparently Xcode has a touchbar emulator and I did some stuff. Anybody still have the real thing for testing?
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11:45:33 <andythenorth> I have the real thing, but I blanked the mac to sell it :P
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12:36:52 <TrueBrain> I hate you can't comment on an outdated revision .. like, either refresh, or let me
12:37:29 <TrueBrain> "looks good to me" kinda review, as ... MacOS remains hard to review :P
12:45:38 <michi_cc> Okay, comments where not too hard :)
12:47:47 <TrueBrain> I think your testing is enough to just yolo-approve it :P
12:50:06 <TrueBrain> still weird to me in how many ways you can generate NewGRFs
12:50:12 <TrueBrain> like: all sprites in a single action1 call
12:50:19 <TrueBrain> or 1 sprite per action1 call followed by an action2
12:50:31 <TrueBrain> the latter allows you to reuse the same id over and over and over
12:59:58 <_dp_> it's clearly something that was designed to be edited by humans rather than just an intermediate format
13:00:35 <michi_cc> I would assume that half the posible variants were just accidentally possible by the way ttdpatch processed grf files.
13:01:03 <TrueBrain> it wouldn't surprise me you couldn't reuse ids in the initial versions :)
13:01:16 <TrueBrain> but that a reference is copied on use, is very useful
13:01:22 <TrueBrain> is it still a reference in that case? :D
13:10:20 <_dp_> it's useful because there are only 256 values
13:10:24 <_dp_> otherwise it's pretty confusing
13:35:14 <TrueBrain> yeah, okay, as long as we agree on that :P
13:50:48 <TrueBrain> generating a NewGRF is becoming a bit slow :P
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14:05:04 <TrueBrain> switching from Python to JavaScript to Rust and back ... this isn't giving me problems, none at all :P
14:08:22 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: what is ground overlay vs ground sprite?
14:09:11 <TrueBrain> can't say that is a useful answer :P
14:09:25 <andythenorth> I think spriteset_ground_overlay is mostly unused
14:09:34 <TrueBrain> GROUNDTILE_MUD_TRACKS
14:10:08 <TrueBrain> and something with "pigs"
14:10:12 <TrueBrain> for Iron Works, as example
14:10:34 <TrueBrain> rendered via "childsprite"
14:10:50 <andythenorth> ok spriteset_ground_overlay is almost entirely unused
14:11:21 <andythenorth> I believe it's for sprites that should continue to be shown when buildings are invisible
14:11:47 <TrueBrain> dunno what childsprite is in NML context
14:11:55 <andythenorth> ground overlays requires drawing, which I didn't do
14:12:07 <andythenorth> childsprite reuses parent bounding box or something
14:12:17 <TrueBrain> NML has ground, building and childsprite
14:12:22 <TrueBrain> I only know the first two
14:12:23 <TrueBrain> no clue what the third is :P
14:12:38 <andythenorth> I abstracted most of this away about 5 years ago or something
14:12:55 <TrueBrain> owh, I found what it is
14:12:55 <andythenorth> it wasn't very interesting to know about
14:12:59 <TrueBrain> but that is just a weird wording
14:13:05 <TrueBrain> it is just a building sprite
14:13:06 <andythenorth> how long does your grf take to compile now?
14:13:48 * peter1138 fucks up a discord bot
14:14:20 <peter1138> I can't send it a DM, presumably permissions but I dunno what.
14:15:53 <TrueBrain> now to figure out how ground-sprites are stored internally in FIRS ..
14:18:03 <TrueBrain> sometimes as numbers, sometimes as constants :D
14:25:15 <_dp_> parent/building sprites have bounding boxes and are sorted, child sprites just render together with them
14:25:50 <peter1138> Oh. Apparently I'd turned off direct DMs from members on myself on my own server. Not the bot...
14:25:52 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I did find a new level of respect for you .. I already knew FIRS was complex, but darn, this is more complex than I expected :D
14:26:16 <andythenorth> is that ironic use of 'respect'? :P
14:26:27 <andythenorth> there are some evil things around sprites vs spriteset detection
14:26:30 <andythenorth> really really evil
14:26:31 <TrueBrain> "is that ironic use of 'nope'?"
14:26:58 <TrueBrain> I am trying to understand where/how you load the actual ground sprite
14:27:01 <TrueBrain> which is pretty interesting
14:27:16 <TrueBrain> as it is not actually the ground-sprite
14:27:30 <TrueBrain> the ground-sprite is always (ignoring climate) the "grass" sprite
14:27:39 <TrueBrain> and you just put an "always-draw" building on top of it :P
14:27:49 <TrueBrain> nothing wrong with that btw, I guess
14:27:57 <TrueBrain> just .. bit decoding what actually happens :)
14:28:02 <TrueBrain> you are such a madman :)
14:28:43 <TrueBrain> the fun part is, that below the water tile of a bulk terminal, is in fact just a grass tile :P
14:29:21 <TrueBrain> but I guess you did this as you had the same struggle I did .. how the hell do you know if a base-set sprite is meant or one you supply :P
14:29:26 <TrueBrain> I solved it slightly diferent
14:30:41 <_dp_> idk about firs in particular but ground sprites are pretty broken in newgrfs
14:30:57 <_dp_> you have to figure out which ground it is yourself and it's not even always possible
14:32:53 <_dp_> like, objects don't even have a snow layer or shore class
14:33:35 <supermop_Home> so my bus stop grf works, and i my updates to my bus grf to match it work...
14:33:46 <TrueBrain> so blast furnace is the only Steeltown industry with custom groundsprites .. right, lets see if my code actually works :D
14:33:48 <supermop_Home> so i guess i should put on bananas
14:33:58 <TrueBrain> supermop_Home: and that before 2022?! :P
14:34:35 <supermop_Home> but now i have Honolulu bus stops and busses, and trucks carrying surfboards when the Honolulu bus stops are loaded
14:35:00 <supermop_Home> so i feel like i need to make some Waikiki buildings
14:35:24 <supermop_Home> the buses look naff pulling up to the ogfx temperate hotel
14:35:58 <supermop_Home> andythenorth does firs need a tropical modern 60s hotel sprite?
14:37:02 <TrueBrain> w00p, custom ground tiles work \o.
14:37:07 <TrueBrain> I am a bit surprised, honestly
14:37:11 <TrueBrain> as it was not a lot of code :P
14:37:19 <supermop_Home> TrueBrain ^ about base set sprites - do you have to replace all of them?
14:37:32 <TrueBrain> I do not know what you try to ask, sorry :(
14:40:39 <peter1138> Okay, my item attributes now go up to 262144... This definitely feels like the wrong way :D
14:40:57 <TrueBrain> do we want to know what you are building peter1138 ? :P
14:41:39 <peter1138> Storing "fixed" attributes on items, as a bit mask.
14:42:05 <peter1138> Well, they are fixed, just more than I anticipated.
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14:42:32 <peter1138> Database design says "what the actual fuck are you doing" :D
14:42:53 <TrueBrain> why don't my buildings want to be transparent? :(
14:42:55 <peter1138> Coding design did say KISS, but with this many it's also saying "what the actual..."
14:46:48 <TrueBrain> I love that andy's comments mostly explain what I don't understand either
14:46:51 <TrueBrain> like: "there are few shorthand constants for specific sprite numbers (legacy from CPP templating, kind of useful to keep)"
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15:25:24 <TrueBrain> damn, the FIRS Quarry is nifty
15:25:25 <TrueBrain> that is really cool
15:26:01 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] feix303 opened issue #9777: [Crash]: OpenTTD crashed when using keyboard shortcut for terrain leveling (Q,W,E) while laying tracks https://git.io/Jy5S4
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15:29:44 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I really really like your quarry
15:29:49 <TrueBrain> it is really cool designed
15:30:18 <andythenorth> ideally it would be a rock quarry that could adapt to slopes
15:30:36 <TrueBrain> it also shows where you really used ground overlays :D
15:30:37 <andythenorth> but my attention span doesn't go that far
15:31:21 <_dp_> firs could really use some slope adaptation
15:31:28 <_dp_> pretty much nothing can spawn on the mountains
15:34:55 <TrueBrain> hmmm ... managed to render an invalid GRF .. that is new
15:39:18 <andythenorth> slope adaption means drawing about 16 variants for every tile
15:39:26 <andythenorth> which increases the amount of work
15:40:32 <andythenorth> if I had enough spare life I'd do it
15:41:17 <andythenorth> also industries on mountains are slightly pathological
15:41:22 <andythenorth> can't build train stations
15:42:12 <_dp_> yeah, I see why you didn't do it
15:42:34 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: so basically, sprites in FIRS are build up in layers .. is that the best way to go about it?
15:42:38 <_dp_> though I just realized that instead of industries adapting to slopes it would be much better if the game adapted terrain for the industry
15:42:45 <andythenorth> TrueBrain yes, layers
15:42:47 <TrueBrain> I can see why, and I can see the use, but before I tailor TrueGRF towards it .. best to check
15:43:00 <_dp_> like it already does for flat platforms but with arbitrary terrain layout
15:43:05 <andythenorth> _dp_ that has been discussed before, but never acquired a spec
15:43:34 <andythenorth> TrueBrain you might not want to support arbitrary numbers of layers for UI reasons, dunno
15:43:58 <andythenorth> sprite layers in grf vehicles are limited to 4 anyway
15:44:00 <TrueBrain> the thing I am in doubt about, is what defines the layers .. global, per industry, or per tile
15:44:39 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9777: [Crash]: OpenTTD crashed when using keyboard shortcut for terrain leveling (Q,W,E) while laying tracks https://git.io/Jy5S4
15:45:04 <andythenorth> not sure why it's 4 for vehicles, but that's the spec
15:45:25 <andythenorth> I don't know if it's a bit space constraint, or a performance reason, or if frosch just decided 4 is 'enough'
15:45:43 <_dp_> oh, looks like btpro client is following the cmclient crashes xD
15:47:27 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: ah, yes, and uses a completely different mechanism
15:47:36 <TrueBrain> I see two main approaches to industries
15:47:43 <TrueBrain> a bit what you did with FIRS, where you draw a crane as its own sprite
15:47:49 <TrueBrain> which you can add to a tile
15:47:54 <TrueBrain> or that you draw a tile in full
15:47:59 <TrueBrain> so "layers" can have different meaning
15:48:14 <TrueBrain> at least: ground, ground-when-transparent, buildings
15:48:17 <TrueBrain> from what I have seen so far
15:48:20 <andythenorth> "composition aids reusability"
15:48:29 <TrueBrain> but if we consider stuff like fences
15:48:33 <andythenorth> isn't that some famous comp sci quote?
15:50:15 <andythenorth> There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.
15:50:15 <andythenorth> Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch.
15:50:51 <TrueBrain> as for a limit in layers, I can always reduce the layers in TrueGRF
15:50:56 <TrueBrain> so I do not have such limit
15:51:24 <TrueBrain> I am somewhat tempted to just make a preset of layers
15:51:25 <_dp_> it's probably a good idea to merge some layers before writing the grf anyway
15:51:32 * andythenorth worries for when TrueBrain reads Iron Horse src
15:51:46 <TrueBrain> like: ground, when-transparent, building, objects
15:51:59 <andythenorth> considered snow yet? :)
15:52:08 <glx> oh the fun will be when adding stations support :)
15:52:34 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: yeah, similar issue there
15:52:39 <TrueBrain> is that a layer, or a toggle for all layers
15:52:46 <TrueBrain> similar question I have for animation
15:52:56 <glx> snow depends on snowline usually
15:53:08 <TrueBrain> to me snow feels a bit like a layer over all layers
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15:53:37 <TrueBrain> but my current issue is, I have only seen FIRS now .. maybe I should open up some other sets :P
15:53:43 <glx> yeah it's a hideable layer
15:54:51 <glx> of course there's also the option of different 'simplified' sprite layout and dynamic selection of them
15:55:41 <TrueBrain> Just .. no clue what they means in context :p
15:55:58 <TrueBrain> But I love the "of course" :D
15:56:10 <glx> like you can merge all layers without snow, and also all layers with snow, and generate 2 different layouts
15:56:29 <glx> then select the right one depending on snow line
15:57:59 <TrueBrain> I am not worried about how to generate it
15:58:01 <glx> so many ways to achieve the same result with newgrf
15:58:06 <TrueBrain> My questions are all about the UI
15:58:08 <_dp_> technicall snow is just a switch on the snowline height so there are multiple ways to make sprites for it
16:00:22 <_dp_> problem with layer over all layers will be if someone wants to remove some pixels for snow sprites
16:01:13 <_dp_> like, idk, chop some trees before the winter
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16:01:51 <TrueBrain> right, what other industry sets are there?
16:03:13 <TrueBrain> yeah, things like XIS aren't giving any other picture
16:03:52 <TrueBrain> the ones I can find on GitHub just reuse existing graphics
16:04:09 <glx> too bad yeti is on openttdcoop
16:04:40 <_dp_> ecs is quite interesting, does some cool stuff
16:04:42 <TrueBrain> most likely means frosch has a copy :P
16:05:57 <glx> I think the idea was to look at source of other grf, not the decompiled version ;)
16:08:41 <TrueBrain> okay, was looking in the code, it seems to not care about "ground sprite" or "building sprite", not really anyway :P
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16:15:06 <TrueBrain> yeah, I need to prototype this, but for some reason it feels right to have multi-dimensional layer support
16:15:11 <TrueBrain> so you can make a crane in the summer
16:15:13 <_dp_> glx, well, some things can be seen even without decompiling
16:15:13 <TrueBrain> and a crane in the winter
16:15:17 <TrueBrain> and put "crane" on a tile
16:15:35 <TrueBrain> similar for animations
16:16:42 <TrueBrain> but okay, guess this has to wait till 2022 :P
16:16:54 <michi_cc> ECS, Pikkas PBI/UKRSI, a million FIRS variants :) Don't think ECS or PBI have good sources available.
16:17:04 <TrueBrain> still really happy you open sourced your set andythenorth ; makes creating such tools a lot easier :)
16:18:14 <michi_cc> Hmm, 2TallTylers stuff migh be interesting as he's using lot's of strange mechanics.
16:18:26 <TrueBrain> yeah, but no custom graphics from what I could tell
16:18:53 <michi_cc> Does TrueGRF already support negative profits? :)
16:19:02 <TrueBrain> it has no custom profit callback -yet-
16:19:11 <TrueBrain> I know how I want to do it, but I have yet to implement it :P
16:19:25 <TrueBrain> first getting v1 out of the door .. which requires ground-sprite support for some weird reason :D
16:19:41 <michi_cc> I don't think it's actually using the callback in Industries of the Carribean, just (mis-)using signed arithemtics in OTTD.
16:20:51 <_dp_> did anyone actually use cargo callback for anything useful yet?
16:21:07 <_dp_> it feel like just a thing to send weird ppl who want square(distance) to
16:21:10 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: initial_payment is signed, so that should be possible I guess :P I do not support that in TrueGRF (yet)
16:27:19 <_dp_> hm, now I wonder, is ecs actually randomizing chickens or does it have a number of predefined layouts?
16:29:58 <supermop_Home> is there a pathfinder for chickens moving around the yard?
16:30:11 <_dp_> no, but there is sprite sorting
16:30:26 <supermop_Home> NewChickens when?
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16:32:48 <_dp_> funnily enough it's totally possible to make chickens move around the yard continuously with some VA2 and registers
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16:47:22 <andythenorth> or the animation loop :P
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18:46:42 <supermop_Home> ok uploaded on bananas
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19:41:25 <supermop_Home> really need some better tropic houses
19:41:42 <supermop_Home> or at least some more pacific looking ones
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20:01:49 <supermop_Home> who wants to go to the beach
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20:20:36 <supermop_Home> oops the rear halves of these articulated buses randomly get a different livery than the front half
20:35:27 <andythenorth> cargo label for 'paper chemicals'?
20:38:57 <andythenorth> unit as volume or weight?
20:59:35 <supermop_Home> is it a liquid?
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21:10:11 <Rubidium> the state probably depends on the exact paper chemical you're talking about. H2O2 is most likely a liquid, O2/O3 probably also a (cryogenic) liquid although most of it can be transported as salt so solid... although maybe sent in a tanker and detanked using compressed air or something... so... it's complicated ;)
21:12:54 <supermop_Home> a static grf can only replace one sprite like for like, right?
21:13:14 <supermop_Home> with the exact same size and offsets?
21:15:32 <supermop_Home> i don't want to make a whole base set, but i would like to make the tropic houses look a bit more hawaiian
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21:20:10 <andythenorth> I went with litres
21:20:37 <andythenorth> composite cargos are always stupid :)
21:21:02 <Rubidium> supermop_Home: I think the size and offsets might not necessarily need to be the same, though I'm not sure. I'd suggest to just try it with one of the sprites
21:21:35 <Rubidium> andythenorth: still not gone with "stuff" to make everything easier ;)
21:21:57 <andythenorth> makes the cargo flow graph a bit boring :P
21:26:59 <andythenorth> hmm I need another type of port
21:27:07 <andythenorth> got Port, Bulk Terminal and Wharf
21:50:13 <TrueBrain> (I have no clue what it is about, but I felt left out :p)
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22:05:09 <supermop_Home> hmm do any of the tropic house have recoloring, like the temperate brick buildings?
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22:14:31 <andythenorth> TrueBrain how many words do Eskimos have for 'harbour'?
22:14:56 <TrueBrain> Never asked one, sorry :(
22:17:05 <nielsm> I think those are the sprite defs for subtropic houses
22:17:40 <nielsm> so there's 2 houses with recolor variants
22:25:39 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #9777: [Crash]: OpenTTD crashed when using keyboard shortcut for terrain leveling (Q,W,E) while laying tracks https://git.io/Jy5S4
22:26:02 <supermop_Home> is there a document somewhere that's like "these are all the houses in x climate - here is what they look like and what sprite number they use"?
22:28:08 <nielsm> possibly on the newgrf wiki, I didn't look there
22:28:31 <nielsm> I went and counted lines and calculated offsets to find that line range
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22:37:01 <supermop_Home> i guess i could try to go through there and identify all the sprites, but it would be tough to make sure i got them right
22:41:54 <TrueBrain> Still not really obvious :(
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22:44:09 <andythenorth> supermop_Home maybe ask tyler in discord
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22:55:06 <andythenorth> hmm 13 cargos left
22:55:10 <andythenorth> maybe not enough
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23:04:22 <supermop_Home> im too old for discord
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continue to next day ⏵
