IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2021-12-23
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08:23:07 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #9760: Feature: [Linkgraph] Show a tooltip with statistics when hovering a link https://git.io/JyTA2
08:32:03 <TrueBrain> "livestock.py: weight="0.1875", # average weight of a shetland pony apparently (and no we don't eat ponies, but eh)"
08:32:10 <TrueBrain> owh andythenorth :)
08:44:30 <andythenorth> is it Christmas yet?
08:48:07 <andythenorth> wonder how much of my day will be log4j
08:50:31 <andythenorth> I wish we had renamed it as lolz4j
08:52:11 <TrueBrain> "weight of 1 unit from the cargo"
08:52:17 <TrueBrain> I understand this concept for items
08:52:21 <TrueBrain> but how about litres?
08:52:27 <TrueBrain> what is "1 unit" in litres?
08:52:35 <andythenorth> I just do 1.0 until forums tells me to use something else
08:53:00 <andythenorth> are litres volume?
08:54:01 <TrueBrain> it seems to be per 1000 litres
08:54:08 <TrueBrain> if I understand the example of milk correctly
08:54:41 <TrueBrain> I wonder .. what is the weight of a passenger?
08:54:49 <TrueBrain> 1000 kg seems a bit drastic :D
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09:00:10 <andythenorth> capacity multiplier 4 for pax
09:01:37 <TrueBrain> Passengers have a weight of 1 .. hmm .. okay, I am fine with that :)
09:04:24 <andythenorth> FIRS seems to use a completely different value but eh
09:05:41 <TrueBrain> the weight is in fact a value divided by 16
09:05:55 <TrueBrain> so the value in the table you linked, you have to divide by 16 :)
09:06:01 <TrueBrain> so a passenger is considered to be 62.5kg :)
09:07:20 <andythenorth> bizarrely that is my exact weight
09:07:32 * andythenorth may not be telling precise truth
09:07:38 <andythenorth> now I have to check :P
09:08:07 <TrueBrain> funny, most of your weights are impossible for the game to actually use
09:08:10 <TrueBrain> I wonder what NML does with it
09:09:08 <TrueBrain> right, weight added .. and you cannot change the weight of a ton :D
09:09:30 <andythenorth> batteries are failing in my scales, but I got 63.1 kg
09:09:38 * andythenorth now looking up how much clothes weigh
09:09:52 <andythenorth> jeans are about 0.3kg
09:10:14 <andythenorth> I reckon Chris Sawyer weighed 62.5kg in 1994
09:11:09 <andythenorth> the real question of the day isn't log4j, it's "can AWS US East 1 make it through a whole day of uptime?"
09:11:21 <andythenorth> seems *everybody* depends on AWS us east 1
09:11:31 <TrueBrain> and: did AWS really just provision role changes so their support can access S3 objects? :P
09:11:36 <TrueBrain> they reverted that real quick :)
09:11:53 <andythenorth> twitter said they did that
09:12:08 <andythenorth> and that it's a free bonus pre-christmas security incident
09:12:21 <TrueBrain> they really really dropped the ball there
09:18:05 <andythenorth> how do we spell 'burnout'?
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09:24:49 <TrueBrain> so how to present cargo payment .. hmm
09:25:05 <TrueBrain> guess you want to see the line of payment? As for most people the nobs to turn would be impossible to understand
09:27:12 <TrueBrain> the default prices are weird compared to the values used in FIRS .. hmm .. does NML do some math over it or something?
09:28:43 <TrueBrain> for example, the default price for pax is 3185. But FIRS has this:
09:28:44 <TrueBrain> price_factor=137, # pax payment rate is much higher than default; this makes a much wider range of vehicle types and costs viable for pax; the downside is that vehicles balancing for FIRS won't work so well in default
09:29:00 <TrueBrain> 137 isn't higher than 3185 .. :P
09:29:06 <TrueBrain> so I am missing a piece of the puzzle .. hmm
09:31:07 <TrueBrain> "price_factor": {"num": 0x12, "size": 4, "unit_conversion": (1 << 21, 10 * 20 * 255)},
09:31:33 <TrueBrain> @calc 10 * 20 * 255
09:31:40 <TrueBrain> no clue what the numbers mean :P
09:40:07 <TrueBrain> ah, NML sync'd the values with in-game values, as shown
09:40:16 <TrueBrain> but prop12 takes another value
09:41:47 <andythenorth> the numbers are easiest understood by reading openttd src :P
09:43:18 <TrueBrain> yeah, but I think I understand T1 and T2 .. 2 breakpoints basically
09:43:37 <TrueBrain> between 0 and T1 your rate is steady
09:43:43 <TrueBrain> between T1 and T2 it goes down with time
09:43:51 <TrueBrain> between T2 and 31 it goes down with twice the time
09:44:03 <TrueBrain> very linear .. I expected something else, I have to admit
09:44:55 <andythenorth> the cargo payment is kind of nonsense
09:45:00 <andythenorth> but fortunately money is a bad feature
09:45:13 <TrueBrain> now just to understand wth pricefactor is actually doing ..
09:45:16 <andythenorth> it doesn't scale well with wildly different vehicle speeds
09:45:20 <andythenorth> nor with map sizes
09:45:37 <andythenorth> dp has many charts and stuff about it
09:45:52 <TrueBrain> the default prop12 shows value I cannot match to what NML is doing
09:47:44 <TrueBrain> "Capacity multiplier for vehicles. (8 fractional bits)."
09:47:59 <TrueBrain> hmm .. that is not it either
09:48:10 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 12.44140625
09:48:43 <dP> andythenorth, those charts are about economy, probably won't help much with understanding cargo payment spec
09:49:36 <TrueBrain> owh, wait, multiplier .. I was reading the wrong field, lol
09:50:30 <TrueBrain> @calc 137 * (pow(2, 21)) / 10 / 20 / 255
09:50:30 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 5633.525960784314
09:50:51 <TrueBrain> now .. why is that (1 << 21) there ..
09:51:02 <andythenorth> I think Tyler has figured out how to invert the curve somehow
09:51:19 <andythenorth> so fast deliveries are penalised
09:52:53 <TrueBrain> so the idea is that in NML you fill in the price as you see in the in-game cargo rate graph .. I think
09:53:03 <TrueBrain> that at least would be the most sane thing to do
09:53:30 <TrueBrain> okay, and so (1 << 21) is because of the income formula
09:53:46 <TrueBrain> ((d >> 1) >> 7) >> 13
09:54:18 <TrueBrain> I just think it is slightly off .. hmm
09:54:34 <TrueBrain> as that is only true for distance. For the timefactor and amount moved, it is wrong
09:54:50 <TrueBrain> so I might be wrong, but are NML prices actually matching in-game cargo rate graph prices?
09:55:34 <andythenorth> it looks that way
09:55:44 <TrueBrain> it does? For me it is widely off
09:55:51 <TrueBrain> passengers are set to 137
09:55:54 <TrueBrain> ingame it is .. 361?
09:55:55 <andythenorth> FIRS slag is 85 and is at 84 on the y index
09:56:03 <andythenorth> I don't know how accurate the charts are, and they scale also
09:56:34 <TrueBrain> slag .. why don't I see slag :P
09:56:40 <andythenorth> depends on economy
09:56:45 <andythenorth> what's your currency unit?
09:56:57 <andythenorth> FIRS pax is £137 GBP on my chart approx
09:57:03 <andythenorth> at the 10 day value
09:57:18 <andythenorth> hmm no it's a bit below
09:57:23 <andythenorth> it's close, but not quite for me
09:57:28 <TrueBrain> ah, I had inflation on
09:57:35 <andythenorth> lol inflation, the best feature
09:58:04 <andythenorth> the chart only starts at 10 days
09:58:09 <andythenorth> but is the price factor for 0 days?
09:58:16 <TrueBrain> yeah, if we take chemicals, you see it matches
09:58:23 <andythenorth> I don't know if there's a missing part of chart with a gradient 0 -> 10 days
09:59:04 <TrueBrain> but that puzzles me still .. as math is not adding up yet .. continuing the search :D
10:00:03 <TrueBrain> ah, no, okay, found where 21 comes from; it is what I expected, but my math was off
10:00:08 <TrueBrain> fine, I can work with that
10:00:53 <TrueBrain> so you define the price you get for 10 units over 20 squares assuming there was no time penalty. Next you define when the first time penalty kicks in, and when the second
10:03:40 <TrueBrain> now to find the proper UI elements for that ..
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10:45:24 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] fernandobatels started discussion #9763: Question about StringID and company names https://git.io/JykCl
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13:26:53 <TrueBrain> sometimes you run into these issues ... I have a slider in TrueGRF, with a left and right side (so you can control two marks)
13:27:01 <TrueBrain> now the component demands that the left is a lower value than the right
13:27:06 <TrueBrain> but .. during updating
13:27:11 <TrueBrain> it can happen you set a new value for left (or right)
13:27:18 <TrueBrain> only to be fixed next update
13:27:26 <TrueBrain> there is ... scary little I can do to prevent that :P
13:51:48 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nchappe updated pull request #9760: Feature: [Linkgraph] Show a tooltip with statistics when hovering a link https://git.io/Jyf20
13:55:37 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nchappe commented on pull request #9760: Feature: [Linkgraph] Show a tooltip with statistics when hovering a link https://git.io/JykFz
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14:22:03 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #9760: Feature: [Linkgraph] Show a tooltip with statistics when hovering a link https://git.io/JykxH
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14:39:44 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: should cargo icons be unique, or is reusing existing ones common?
14:39:54 <andythenorth> I try to make them unique
14:40:11 <andythenorth> within the limits of 16x16
14:40:49 <TrueBrain> at least, that is what the specs say
14:41:27 * andythenorth was using hex, no? :P
14:41:34 <andythenorth> not really andythenorth
14:41:42 <andythenorth> wow 10x10 is tiny
14:41:47 <TrueBrain> and the colour of cargo, there are 2 you can modify
14:41:53 <TrueBrain> station listing and payment listing
14:41:57 <TrueBrain> do you always use the same?
14:42:24 <TrueBrain> but is that reasonable for everyone? Or is there really a reason they can differ?
14:43:07 <andythenorth> I know of no reason to use different colours
14:46:06 <TrueBrain> okay, so capacity multiplier is basically "volume", or am I reading that wrong ..
14:46:17 <andythenorth> it's a proxy for volume yes
14:46:26 <andythenorth> it causes only trouble but eh
14:47:54 <andythenorth> mostly just confusion
14:47:58 <andythenorth> it doesn't break the game or anything
14:50:24 <TrueBrain> bit weird that it is a fractal
14:50:29 <TrueBrain> but all cases I can find either use 1, 2 or 4 :P
14:50:39 <TrueBrain> feels like something I shouldn't support for now :D
14:53:30 <TrueBrain> okay, supporting custom profit callbacks also should be easy, but also not for now
14:53:56 <TrueBrain> so that indeed leaves sprite + colour, to make cargo complete-ish :)
14:56:41 <TrueBrain> tempted to dive into making a sprite editor ... shouldn't be hard, honestly
15:08:07 <nielsm> hmm... could we maybe have the emscripten preview images contain a selection of known savegames in the image?
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15:15:48 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #9760: Feature: [Linkgraph] Show a tooltip with statistics when hovering a link https://git.io/JyIIb
15:17:24 <TrueBrain> You can embed files, but that just increases the download size. Alternatively you van gk the OpenGFX route, and download it on first start.
15:17:39 <TrueBrain> The latter uses browser local storage
15:18:10 <TrueBrain> (So you only download it once)
15:19:12 <TrueBrain> Language files are embedded, as they are tightly coupled, as example
15:20:06 <TrueBrain> Yet another route would be to change the HTML to upload savegames yourself in your local storage. Means anyone can add whatever savegame they want
15:49:49 <glx> lol ShipAI has a dummy save function but no load function so there's always a warning when loading a savegame
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16:12:56 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nchappe updated pull request #9760: Feature: [Linkgraph] Show a tooltip with statistics when hovering a link https://git.io/Jyf20
16:23:59 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nchappe commented on pull request #9760: Feature: [Linkgraph] Show a tooltip with statistics when hovering a link https://git.io/JyICc
16:24:27 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] benda started discussion #9765: Incorrect Company Values - Are These Gameplay Changes Or Defect Fixes? https://git.io/JyICz
16:30:34 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on discussion #9765: Incorrect Company Values - Are These Gameplay Changes Or Defect Fixes? https://git.io/JyICz
16:32:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] benda commented on discussion #9765: Incorrect Company Values - Are These Gameplay Changes Or Defect Fixes? https://git.io/JyICz
16:50:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on discussion #9765: Incorrect Company Values - Are These Gameplay Changes Or Defect Fixes? https://git.io/JyICz
16:52:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] benda commented on discussion #9765: Incorrect Company Values - Are These Gameplay Changes Or Defect Fixes? https://git.io/JyICz
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20:23:34 <TrueBrain> "Note the additional 00 which is needed because it must be a word value here. (Don't forget that sprite set numbering starts from zero) "
20:23:39 <TrueBrain> I love how sometimes the spec explain basic shit
20:23:50 <TrueBrain> especially in other places it doesn't explain non-trivial stuff :P
20:26:41 <TrueBrain> I love it when things "just work"
20:26:44 <TrueBrain> custom cargo sprites work :D
20:27:07 <TrueBrain> now to "borrow" the FIRS ones
20:27:47 <andythenorth> we could crowd source more :P
20:27:52 <andythenorth> it's the thing I hate drawing most
20:49:25 <glx> TrueBrain: it doesn't fully explain the byte order ;)
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23:48:41 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened issue #9766: [Bug]: SDTG_MMANY/ManyOfMany settings may write unintiailised bytes into the config file when no bits are set https://git.io/JyLkB
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