IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2021-12-22
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00:41:38 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] benda opened pull request #9758: Fix documentation - need to use double quotes not apostrophes to surr… https://git.io/JyetL
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08:18:31 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #9758: Fix documentation - need to use double quotes not apostrophes to surr… https://git.io/JyvlZ
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09:22:33 * peter1138 prepares to remove his old trusty Debian Hyper-V VM.
09:39:45 <peter1138> It's not been running since June, and I wasn't using it much then.
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10:32:56 <Timberwolf> TrueBrain: I get Factorio vibes from that.
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11:00:19 <andythenorth> that is excellent TrueBrain
11:02:47 <TrueBrain> it is funny how hard it is to select the right tile to change the sprite when things get this big ... :P
11:02:57 <TrueBrain> but I think it is fair to say, you shouldn't make industries this big :D
11:04:16 <TrueBrain> hmmm ..... I did mess up one thing ... tiles can't be empty now, lol
11:10:59 <peter1138> That's used quite often.
11:11:26 <TrueBrain> hence the "mess up" part :P
11:20:53 <TrueBrain> oof, finding bugs after deployment .. ofc! :P Well, we will fix that later :)
11:21:15 <peter1138> Switching frameworks like they're nothing.
11:21:50 <peter1138> I'm still in the land of old style server-produces HTML, and then jquery/bootstrap for a few fancy bits.
11:22:26 <TrueBrain> I gave up on jquery long ago .. but was shocked how terrible React really was
11:22:43 <TrueBrain> I also gave up on Bootstrap, as it is just .. old. I am now using Materials, which at least has a dark-mode
11:23:09 <TrueBrain> Bootstrap also has way too many colours, which makes for really bad designs. Materials forces you to only have a primary and secondary colour .. which I kinda like :)
11:23:33 <peter1138> jquery is supposed to be dead as browser js is much better now, but... well, isn't not all there.
11:23:52 <peter1138> isn't not? who knows what I meant to write, I don't.
11:24:29 <TrueBrain> and what I like about TrueGRF, hosting doesn't cost me a penny :P As everything is done client-side :D
11:24:55 <TrueBrain> next step is to fix a bunch of bugs I found .. and figure out how one can import sprites :)
11:25:51 <TrueBrain> still one of the harder things to solve ... sprites. Funny :) Well, lunch now!
11:26:14 <peter1138> Someone suggested using flutter as it was "easy to convert" and... of course it isn't.
13:32:37 <andythenorth> does it have grf?
13:32:41 <andythenorth> anybody tried it?
13:34:08 <andythenorth> oh yolo it has a mac build
13:34:11 <andythenorth> and I have a steam account
13:50:38 <andythenorth> does it have advanced block?
13:50:48 <andythenorth> pre-signals and stuff?
13:50:54 * andythenorth still watching the Steam download bar
14:06:33 <TrueBrain> link shortner failed? Lol
14:07:09 <TrueBrain> and that is not a link error, that is a redirect error ... lets see if I can fix that :D
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14:22:06 <TrueBrain> hmm .. I expected more URLs to be without latest, but it seems we don't point to the exact place to download that often
14:24:54 <TrueBrain> in that case, why not
14:27:14 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9759: Fix links to Open{GFX,SFX,MSX} in README.md https://git.io/JyfJv
14:31:19 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #9759: Fix links to Open{GFX,SFX,MSX} in README.md https://git.io/JyfUi
14:32:12 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9759: Fix links to Open{GFX,SFX,MSX} in README.md https://git.io/JyfUp
14:32:46 <TrueBrain> for once James is not correct :) That doesn't happen often
14:49:26 <dP> hm, why is citymania event is still on my old bananas account, did I not transfer it?
14:50:23 <dP> anyway, do I still need to write that some weird thing on tt-forums or can I just PR? xD
15:09:25 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] benda commented on pull request #9758: Fix documentation - need to use double quotes not apostrophes to surr… https://git.io/JyfGI
15:13:01 <TrueBrain> I cannot reproduce #9758; not that the PR is a bad idea, just weird that it behaves so differently for him
15:13:30 <TrueBrain> I did use Powershell, that is true
15:15:30 <glx> ah I reproduced it in vs command prompt
15:15:52 <TrueBrain> in general I forget Command Prompt still exists
15:16:24 <glx> yeah I just use windows terminal (so multi tab) and default to powershell
15:16:54 <glx> I even have the integrated powershell panel in VS
15:21:19 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #9758: Fix documentation - need to use double quotes not apostrophes to surr… https://git.io/Jyfno
15:27:54 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] danskidb commented on issue #9743: [Crash]: OpenTTD crashes on startup (MacBook Pro 2020, M1) https://git.io/JDCuI
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15:48:18 <glx> ok the 2 crash.log from discord seem to have different causes (based on the decoded stack trace) but as we won't get crash.dmp anyway
15:58:30 <glx> hmm maybe we should put timestamp in crash filenames
15:59:09 <TrueBrain> (yes, we really should :P)
15:59:31 <TrueBrain> even TrueGRF downloads add the timestamp :P
15:59:46 <TrueBrain> I so hate the "(1)" postfix etc in the download folder ... but overwriting files is even worse :)
16:04:59 <peter1138> I need NewGRF cleanup wizard...
16:05:18 <peter1138> So many old versions of files lying around.
16:22:57 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nchappe opened pull request #9760: Feature: [Linkgraph] Show a tooltip with statistics when hovering a link https://git.io/Jyf20
16:23:23 <andythenorth> peter1138 I just delete all grfs from time to time :P
16:23:28 <andythenorth> then get them off bananas
16:25:04 <peter1138> I'll probably accidentally delete the only copy of NewGRF docks if I do that ;-)
16:26:37 <glx> wow crashlog code is so ugly
16:29:17 <andythenorth> peter1138 post it on github :P
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17:01:00 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] frosch123 opened pull request #113: Change: migrate OpenTTD user _dp_ to GitHub user citymania-org https://git.io/Jyf6B
17:06:53 <frosch123> does someone have a working crystal ball?
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17:07:45 <frosch123> now they are not member of any translation team
17:13:32 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] TrueBrain approved pull request #113: Change: migrate OpenTTD user _dp_ to GitHub user citymania-org https://git.io/JyfP0
17:13:38 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] TrueBrain merged pull request #113: Change: migrate OpenTTD user _dp_ to GitHub user citymania-org https://git.io/Jyf6B
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17:39:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] benda commented on pull request #9758: Fix documentation - need to use double quotes not apostrophes to surr… https://git.io/JyfDY
17:43:18 <frosch123> someone refunded ottd on gog again :)
17:43:48 <glx> I hope they got their money back
17:50:39 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #9758: Fix documentation - need to use double quotes not apostrophes to surr… https://git.io/Jyfyy
17:51:29 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #9758: Fix documentation - need to use double quotes not apostrophes to surr… https://git.io/Jyfy5
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18:28:05 * andythenorth tries Voxel Tycoon
18:28:42 <andythenorth> slow game start is slow
18:32:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #9758: Fix documentation - need to use double quotes not apostrophes to surr… https://git.io/JyetL
18:42:51 <andythenorth> Voxel Tycoon isn't clicking
18:45:36 <frosch123> can you see what game engine they use? do they have their own engine, or is it one of the many games that uses unity, runs nice with 3 vehicles, and completely breaks apart when you build something of decent size?
18:46:16 <andythenorth> I suspect it's unity, but I don't really know
18:46:24 <andythenorth> I think it comes with a lot of frameworked UI
18:47:15 <andythenorth> yeah dev blog suggests unity
18:47:22 <andythenorth> there's a particular feel to every unity game I saw
18:50:02 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:52:41 <TrueBrain> frosch123: done properly, Unity can scale like a mofo :P
18:52:49 <TrueBrain> so the framework is not so much the issue .. more the people behind the keyboard :P
18:53:43 <frosch123> fair, i only know rimwold and rise-of-industry, so i am extrapolating from two points :p
18:54:31 <TrueBrain> but, Unreal Engine is showing how it is really done ..... and if that continues to grow in the pace it does ..... owh boy, that will be fun :)
18:54:39 <frosch123> but okay, if i compare those two... rimworld appears even worse...
18:55:13 <glx> I have some issues with UE4 due to my CPU (related to audio handling)
18:55:56 <andythenorth> OpenTTD rewrite?
18:55:56 <TrueBrain> if you just look at their latest techdemo .... sure, it only runs on latest PS/XBox, but holy crap ... that is insane
18:56:09 <TrueBrain> can't wait till a decent Perimeter or Red Faction arrives :)
18:56:35 <glx> yeah the techdemo is impressive (the car reactions are funny though)
18:56:59 <LordAro> andythenorth: rewrite it in rust
18:57:46 <TrueBrain> LordAro: no, Java! We need that sweet log4j in there!
18:57:56 <frosch123> andythenorth: what space do you find for ottd between factorio, rise-of-industry, machinsky, voxel tycoon, railroad empire, transport fever, ... ?
18:58:23 <andythenorth> I don't have the context for most of those
18:58:39 <andythenorth> my experience is Railroad Tycoon, Railroad Tycoon 2, Railroad Tycoon 3 and Mini Metro :P
18:58:47 <andythenorth> and World of Tanks Blitz
18:58:56 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #9761: Change: add a timestamp in name of crash files https://git.io/JyfbW
18:59:07 <TrueBrain> don't recreate; be innovative! :)
18:59:10 <andythenorth> I would put Voxel Tycoon closer to OpenTTD than WOT Blitz
18:59:15 <dP> what framework is OpenTTD using? I have some issues with it :p
18:59:39 <TrueBrain> glx: your editor sucks ... "Trailing whitespace" .. tssk
19:00:56 <andythenorth> lol that this shit still matters :P
19:01:23 <TrueBrain> right, sprite uploading .. hmmm
19:05:06 <TrueBrain> the uploading is not the hard part
19:07:49 <TrueBrain> it is just very hard to make anything for sprites that can have any dimension .. hmmm
19:08:00 <andythenorth> are you using single sprites, or a spritesheet?
19:08:16 <TrueBrain> neither, funny enough
19:08:26 <TrueBrain> every sprite has an internal representation
19:08:34 <TrueBrain> but I can show it as either a single sprite, or a spritesheet
19:11:18 <TrueBrain> makes me wonder, if I should keep thing transparent, or use the blue as background, for sprite editing ...
19:14:51 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on issue #9743: [Crash]: OpenTTD crashes on startup (MacBook Pro 2020, M1) https://git.io/JDCuI
19:44:57 <TrueBrain> okay ... it is not pretty, but at least you can now edit the offsets of a sprite ... and similar I guess I can now add uploading .. lets try ..
19:45:01 <TrueBrain> first get it to work, improve later ;)
20:06:27 <glx> TrueBrain: yeah VS is annoying with trailing whitespaces
20:10:52 <LordAro> glx: get a better editor :p
20:11:06 <TrueBrain> or: set the right configuration!
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20:25:10 * andythenorth needs a game to play
20:26:05 <LordAro> andythenorth: i came across a game recently you might enjoy
20:26:49 <TrueBrain> I see what you did there :P
20:26:58 <LordAro> maybe you've heard of it
20:27:04 <andythenorth> I'd prefer a game that's moddable
20:27:35 <LordAro> i hear it has extensions
20:27:41 <andythenorth> Voxel Tycoon doesn't have much external modding
20:27:45 <frosch123> pff, i wanted to make the same ttdpatch joke :p
20:27:49 <andythenorth> you just edit the vehicles directly in game
20:28:12 * LordAro & frosch123 now think alike
20:28:17 <LordAro> i do not know how to feel about this
20:28:40 <frosch123> we just watch the same memes
20:29:52 <TrueBrain> did you try applying ttdpatch on OpenTTD?
20:29:57 <TrueBrain> I read that is the latest
20:30:10 <andythenorth> I tried it on Voxel Tycoon
20:30:14 <andythenorth> is that correct?
20:30:34 <frosch123> TrueBrain: it's great, you can load it via JNDI into the java port
20:31:02 <andythenorth> I had managed to forget log4j for 2 hours
20:31:05 <LordAro> does jdrive use log4j?
20:31:06 <dP> I would be cool to apply some OpenTTD on Mashinky
20:31:37 <frosch123> i had the impression machinsky is the closest thing to ottd
20:32:28 <frosch123> compared to the other modern similar games
20:32:43 <dP> of all transport games it came the closest to having gameplay? :p
20:32:52 <andythenorth> the vehicle concepts for Voxel Tycoon seem very similar
20:32:57 <andythenorth> orders are better
20:33:23 <andythenorth> consists are better, but confusing
20:33:46 <andythenorth> station building is worse
20:34:35 <frosch123> dP: rise-of-industry focusses on production instead of transport, transport fever focusses on 3D and freeform building instead of junction mayham
20:34:46 <dP> andythenorth, how is that even possible to make it worse?
20:34:54 <frosch123> most of the ttd-like games have very different focus
20:35:30 <andythenorth> there's no overbuilding of stations afaict
20:35:37 <andythenorth> it's still early release
20:41:36 <Eddi|zuHause> there's also railway empire, which seems closer to railroad tycoon
20:42:42 <andythenorth> usually I just play Warcraft 1 when all else fails
20:42:47 <andythenorth> but dosbox seems to crash hard on m1
20:43:03 <frosch123> railway empire is also freeform like transport fever
20:43:25 <frosch123> railway empire is also one of those games that completely falls apart when the network becomes bigger
20:43:37 <frosch123> no idea whehter that also applies to transport fever
20:43:50 <andythenorth> so is OpenTTD the only good one?
20:44:07 <frosch123> openttd and factorio are the two games which scale :)
20:44:10 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on how you mean "bigger"
20:44:19 <andythenorth> Railroad Tycoon 3 is a better game than OpenTTD
20:44:28 <andythenorth> but OpenTTD is a better hobby
20:45:25 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: "256x256 high industry density in ottd" is already too much for some of the modern games
20:45:55 <Eddi|zuHause> that's true for simutrans as well :)
20:46:24 <nielsm> transport fever doesn't hold up to me because the world is static/predictable, industries have a fixed production per month they never stray from, and they upgrade/downgrade production on entirely deterministic basis, and industries are never built or shut down during game
20:46:26 <frosch123> i never played simutrans for longer than 30 minutes
20:46:50 <nielsm> which to me makes transport fever more an optimization puzzle than a fun game
20:46:51 <frosch123> nielsm: isn't that what all ottd mods do? :p
20:47:13 <frosch123> you just listed the most hated things about ottd :p
20:47:27 <nielsm> apparently I'm in the minority then
20:47:46 <frosch123> welcome to the club :) i also play with breakdowns
20:47:59 <Eddi|zuHause> if you look at openttd gameplay, eeryone here is a minority
20:48:29 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i played last week, with newbies
20:48:40 <nielsm> transport fever is a better model train set, ottd (vanilla) is a better game
20:49:15 <frosch123> TrueBrain: the hardest part seems to rotate depots correctly
20:49:33 <frosch123> since then i wonder about adding new tile selection sprites, which show an arrow on the entry side
20:49:39 <TrueBrain> I wonder how much of FIRS I can already import, hmmmmmmm
20:50:07 <TrueBrain> guess I first should add a "Save" button ..
20:51:40 <dP> don't need orientation selector at all
20:51:47 <andythenorth> TrueBrain so good!
20:52:28 <frosch123> dP: that shows the positive case, how does it look in the negative case?
20:53:14 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #9761: Change: add a timestamp in name of crash files https://git.io/JyJm7
20:53:43 <andythenorth> ok FIRS 5 can be deleted
20:53:55 <frosch123> in both cases the depot is rotated correctly, but my newbies did not notice the incorrect orientation after construction
20:54:05 <andythenorth> parsing FIRS to get all the current sprites would not be hard
20:54:20 <andythenorth> either from the action 0, or from the python
20:54:30 <frosch123> dP: you write something about auto-orientation, isn't that ambiguous?
20:54:59 <dP> frosch123, it rarely is, and wsywg building helps in those cases
20:55:04 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: main issue is the lack of support for feature A, B, C, D ... Z :P
20:55:13 <frosch123> TrueBrain: do you want to support save-to-disk, or only push-to-gh?
20:55:14 <dP> there is also rotation on mmb but I rarely even have to use that
20:55:22 <TrueBrain> frosch123: for now save-to-disk
20:55:51 <frosch123> hmm, mmb for rotate... i was wondering what button to use for rotation
20:56:06 <frosch123> most games use wasd to move and r to rotate or similar
20:56:16 <frosch123> but all those keys are occupied in ottd with useless shit
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20:56:33 <dP> mmb is quite common in games too I think
20:56:55 <frosch123> then i wondered about adding "traditional"/"modern" shortcut-themes to ottd... but the remembered how stupid msvc looks with supporting vc6 hotkeys
20:57:04 <dP> only issue with mmb is that it's kinda awkward to use when dragging stations
20:57:20 <dP> when you suddenly noticed you dragged it in the wrong orientation
20:57:24 <frosch123> i associate mmb mostly with panning
20:57:50 <dP> I just added mmb ass configurable hotkey
20:58:48 <peter1138> I don't any games that use middle mouse button, as it's always a bit awkward being a wheel as well...
20:59:08 <TrueBrain> yeah .... I haven't used mmb in ..... many years :P
20:59:11 <nielsm> and people on a laptop using trackpad/trackpoint rarely have a real mmb
20:59:18 <TrueBrain> I used to use it for pasting, but ...
21:00:13 * andythenorth has one big piece of glass
21:00:47 <frosch123> andythenorth: implement multi-finger dragging and rotation
21:01:01 <andythenorth> for choosing vehicle liveries?
21:01:02 <glx> macs used to not even have a rmb
21:01:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: touche
21:06:29 <andythenorth> we could use OpenGL
21:08:03 <dP> but with autorotation you have to manually rotate first to get that
21:08:22 <dP> and if there are several possible connections you instantly see where it connects to
21:08:40 <dP> though I wasn't thinking about newbies specifically when I made this
21:09:28 <frosch123> as you know, core developement mostly cares about newbies :p
21:10:06 <dP> but in general those wsywg building previews are very helpful
21:10:24 <dP> I had autorotation way before wsywg and it wasn't quite feeling right
21:11:11 <dP> industry funding would also benefit from it immensely, haven't done that yet though
21:14:10 <andythenorth> industry funding would so much
21:14:22 <andythenorth> but isn't the layout unknown until the player clicks?
21:14:44 <frosch123> funnily it isn't :p it's just not shown
21:14:49 <dP> it's deterministic so you can mostly predict which one you'll get
21:15:23 <frosch123> well, ok, the location check callback could be date-dependent or similar
21:15:36 <frosch123> but the layout-randomisation itself is known before clicking
21:15:50 <dP> but it done it vanilla it can probably repurpose mmb as layout selector as there is nothing to rotate anyway
21:16:24 <dP> well, I guess even cmclient can, it's just not reliable if someone else builds there at the same time
21:18:59 <andythenorth> can we RMB for vehicle liveries? :P
21:20:48 <dP> also, probably impossible to implement reliably with newgrfs
21:22:09 <TrueBrain> damn andythenorth , you really did some crazy shit in FIRS :P This will be interesting ... :D
21:24:39 * andythenorth worries if Truebrain ever does TrueGrfTrains
21:24:42 <andythenorth> and looks at Horse
21:25:02 <andythenorth> the 'crazy shit' in FIRS is grade school stuff :P
21:28:17 <TrueBrain> I think you misremember details :)
21:28:32 <TrueBrain> "wharf was added to avoid pathological case in Arctic Basic where checking for only port would often fail to yield a location (for reasons I didn't fully understand eh)"
21:30:44 <frosch123> TrueBrain: nowadays andy designs firs so it results in a nice cargo flow chart
21:31:02 <frosch123> maybe truegrf needs a cargoflow drawing mode
21:32:04 <dP> generate random planar graph and be done with it xD
21:34:24 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: what industry produces nitrates? Too lazy to look for it :P
21:35:31 <TrueBrain> tssk, Farm Supplies are Express and Piece Goods .. those two don't combine in TrueGRF
21:35:34 <TrueBrain> cannot comply, sad :P
21:35:35 <glx> dP: for ecs, worst case is tourist center I think
21:36:02 <glx> crazy land requirements for most of them
21:36:11 <dP> btw, before I forget about it again, industries on firs website could've really used some description on their production mechanics
21:36:47 <dP> glx, those are just ridiculous, it's no longer a ui problem at that point xD
21:37:17 <dP> also in cmclient funding highlight ignores terrain requirements
21:37:30 <dP> because it could be easilly fixed
21:38:06 <dP> guess could use another colour or smth but atm it's just red so it's ignored
21:38:59 <dP> well, I guess tourist centres can be viewed as ui problem but more of a "how to put a wiki into the game" type of ui xD
21:42:01 <dP> though I guess if industry has a wsywg preview it could highlight parts that don't fit the required terra layout with red or smth
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21:51:42 <TrueBrain> do I want to know what "economy" is? :)
21:51:53 <andythenorth> dP I deliberately didn't document production mechanics
21:52:02 <andythenorth> I also removed some of the in-game information
21:52:12 <andythenorth> people have more fun making up their own explanations
21:55:22 <dP> weird, I didn't find it fun having to look up each industry both on the website and in the game
21:59:31 <andythenorth> just use github :P
21:59:52 <andythenorth> maybe we could expose the nfo in game?
22:02:27 <frosch123> just add a link "view source on gh"
22:03:02 <andythenorth> we talked about links on things
22:12:08 <TrueBrain> it is really hard to find what png file sets a sprite :P
22:12:12 <TrueBrain> looking for oil pumps ...
22:12:46 <TrueBrain> ah, by the looks it uses the built-in variant
22:12:56 <TrueBrain> I am not supporting that!
22:15:03 <andythenorth> sometimes the original sprites are so good
22:15:45 <andythenorth> if you're using the actual FIRS source, pngs are just named for industry in nearly all cases
22:16:45 <glx> how does it look with non original sprites ?
22:17:44 <glx> I don't want to imagine with zbase :)
22:19:23 <glx> well as long as the sprites are not mixed in the same industry it should be okayish
22:21:12 <andythenorth> I could draw my own oil well :P
22:22:06 <andythenorth> 2021 has been mostly work work work
22:22:47 <frosch123> didn't pikka draw oil wells?
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22:30:22 <TrueBrain> the sprite system I now have is not that bad .. I expected it to work much worse. Of course it is undoable if you are actually creating a set, but copy/pasting sprite per sprite isn't that much work to do once in a while :)
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22:47:56 <andythenorth> I suspect most people won't draw much
22:48:07 <andythenorth> if you put all the FIRS sprites in a library
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