IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2021-11-19
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00:01:35 <LordAro> glx: so what's the ultimate answer? not a bug, sprites are shared?
00:02:30 <glx> for this one it's not shared with temperate in the spec
00:03:58 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #9704: Fix #9702: Revert old behaviour in group GUI when not using shared orders https://git.io/J18CV
00:04:01 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #9702: [Bug]: It is not possible to transfer vehicles sharing orders between groups (using Ctrl+drag doesn't work) https://git.io/J1CpR
00:04:26 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #9694: Fix: Update last servicing dates when using the date cheat https://git.io/J1vhT
00:04:37 <LordAro> i can at least close 1 issue this evening
00:05:34 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #9544: Change: Make pf.yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol on by default https://git.io/J1VCI
00:06:16 <dP> though I'm looking at TTD now and it doesn't look even remotely the same as openttd with original graphics...
00:06:18 <glx> anyway people should not use two way signals
00:06:30 <dP> hard to test though as there is no town size setting...
00:06:46 <LordAro> dP: set up a bus route and press ffwd!
00:07:26 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #9652: Fix #8797: Use logical rail length when placing signals https://git.io/JiZ0F
00:07:29 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8797: Wrong distance between signals with «Drag signal distance» https://git.io/JthDs
00:08:10 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #9544: Change: Make pf.yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol on by default https://git.io/JuGmY
00:09:36 <LordAro> why are there 3 banks in that town...
00:12:17 <dP> apparently banks in arctic don't have distance restriction...
00:12:57 <LordAro> that feels like a bug
00:17:05 <dP> is there a cheat menu in TTD? xD
00:20:15 <dP> LordAro, technically, may not be a bug as ttd doesn't have multiple industries per town it doesn't really need range check
00:23:12 <LordAro> "missing feature", perhaps :)
00:23:53 <dP> hm, are those sprites even used in temperate?
00:24:11 <dP> they look temperate, sure, but I can't find any buildings like that
00:24:39 <glx> it's used only for sprites 4477, 4478, 4479, 4577 as the name says
00:24:52 <glx> I did a search in all pnml
00:25:05 <dP> well, image could be copied
00:26:19 <glx> and it seems to be the right one, as it has snow (building available on tropic and arctic only)
00:26:42 <glx> so I'd say style issue when drawing
00:28:17 <LordAro> glx: can you update issue as appropriate?
00:28:18 <glx> not the first "doesn't match style of other sprites" issue in opengfx (toolbar has many of them I think)
00:33:22 <dP> I never cease to me amazed every time I launch the original, such a wonderful game
00:33:28 <dP> openttd really lacks some finesse in comparison
00:33:47 <LordAro> openttd has 32bpp tho
00:35:47 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] glx22 commented on issue #77: [Bug]: Sub-tropical landscape has incorrect shops and office buildings https://git.io/J1VG4
00:35:58 <dP> LordAro, to its own misfortune :p
00:37:37 <LordAro> how could you say such a thing?
00:37:40 <LordAro> clearly the best feature
00:38:08 <dP> my only hope for it is gold rush
00:38:25 <glx> yeah gold rush looks promising
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00:41:17 <dP> except it's like fusion power, forever "soon"
00:54:24 <dP> yeah, town generation really looks different in TTD
00:54:29 <dP> I may even have an idea why
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01:09:29 <dP> configure: error: gcc older than 3.3 can't compile OpenTTD because of its poor template support
01:09:47 <dP> compiling old openttd didn't go well xD
01:10:26 <LordAro> because poor detection of gcc>=10?
01:12:50 <dP> because 9 < 33 apparently xD
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01:15:25 <dP> well, just two fixes and it works xD
01:25:29 <dP> may not be the only change but it's the most noticeable
01:34:25 <dP> hm, I even vaguely remeber someone reporting it before
01:34:30 <dP> no clue how to find it though
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09:13:52 <LordAro> dP: i'm waiting for your fix for the town radius thing :p
10:39:36 <dP> LordAro, it's actually kinda tricky as I'm not sure it was "correct" even before the fix
10:41:00 <dP> I even have it fixed in citymania server but for entirely different reason, but the whole logic is somewhat different there
10:41:16 <dP> as it grows towns to the certain amount of houses
10:41:49 <dP> so it knows the final town size and can set the correct radius directly
10:42:15 <dP> but that is probably not a good idea for vanilla as all towns generate exactly the same size
10:43:32 <dP> would be nice to grow what the original algorithm actually was but dunno where to look it up
10:46:18 <dP> I guess simplest solution would be to check for _generating_world as in-game town funding already has a kludge that sets it
10:46:27 <dP> But I don't really want to add to that mess...
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15:05:55 <supermop_work> the bug is that the tropic buildings look bad?
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15:12:19 <LordAro> or rather, they look like temperate buildings
15:13:01 <supermop_work> its always been unclear to me where tropic is supposed to be
15:13:40 <supermop_work> some things look spanish mission, but the industry set doesn't really look like mexico?
15:15:05 <supermop_work> also i guess what a 'tropical' building looks like is pretty subjective
15:17:18 <supermop_work> should have more brise solei and less big panes of glass?
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18:36:44 <glx> oh removing DorpsGek from admins
18:41:41 <frosch123> poor dorpsgek getting demoted
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19:19:09 <frosch123> we need an example how to add settings without bumping savegame version
19:20:30 <frosch123> with the new savegame format, i think neither #9693 nor #9709 need a savegame bump
19:24:15 <TrueBrain> It's easy, just add it :p
19:45:42 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] davewthompson commented on issue #77: [Bug]: Sub-tropical landscape has incorrect shops and office buildings https://git.io/J1VG4
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20:36:12 <andythenorth> what is 'karma' on reddit?
20:36:25 <andythenorth> is it like whuffie?
20:36:34 <supermop_work> probably something you don't need?
20:36:49 <andythenorth> I seem to have gained some
20:36:56 <andythenorth> is it a game I can win?
20:37:07 <supermop_work> quit while you're ahead
20:38:44 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] wrenger opened issue #9710: [Bug]: macos m1: Launching from steam starts the intel version https://git.io/J16Sk
20:38:52 <frosch123> andythenorth: post cat pictures to increase it
20:40:05 <frosch123> oh right, the poll finished today
20:40:44 <glx> pff github is in unicorn mode
20:40:57 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9710: [Bug]: macos m1: Launching from steam starts the intel version https://git.io/J16Sk
20:41:39 <andythenorth> what am I angry about?
20:42:15 <andythenorth> I don't usually crosspost from discord, but this is nice
20:42:16 <andythenorth> " PatchByte: i don't know why, but when i play openttd i feel like home, i absolutely love this game, it is so cool that it is free thank you."
20:51:59 <frosch123> lol, i need some fake account to post on reddit...
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20:53:04 <andythenorth> I used the 'register with Apple ID' thing
20:53:20 <andythenorth> avoids leaking data to reddit
21:02:07 <frosch123> it was a "the devs ignore the public, make a democratic vote to proof they are wrong"-poll, it concluded not the way they wanted, so they go "Haha this is how democracy works. The mass of morons has more "suffrage" than the minority of those who know how to think and criticize."
21:03:07 <frosch123> it applies to many things :)
21:04:55 <frosch123> people said, with modern technology, darwins selection no longer applies to humans, but anti-worming-agents win
21:07:47 <frosch123> something like that
21:10:11 * andythenorth seeks a long-reserve signal
21:10:25 <andythenorth> so we can restore appropriate confusion for new players
21:10:52 <andythenorth> when V is allowed to make Factorio look like BRIX I will try it again :P
21:10:58 <andythenorth> the graphics gave me a twitch
21:11:19 <frosch123> they changed all graphics like 3 times, so you have some choice
21:12:09 * andythenorth watches a trailer
21:12:20 <andythenorth> oh I remember, the camera angle gives me vertigo :)
21:12:26 <andythenorth> like our scrolling intro does :)
21:27:06 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #9710: [Bug]: macos m1: Launching from steam starts the intel version https://git.io/J16Sk
21:27:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #9710: [Bug]: macos m1: Launching from steam starts the intel version https://git.io/J16Sk
21:30:44 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I was pleasantly surprised the button Aro added was appreciated, looking at that poll. Personally I did not expect that to be the case. So it was a useful poll :D
21:32:14 <dP> which option on that poll counts as appreciation?
21:34:28 <frosch123> TrueBrain: yes, i also was mostly "you do not need this option often, but when you do it must be easy to find"
21:34:59 <frosch123> dP: while the author probably added it as sarcasm, i don't think the participants did
21:35:10 <dP> idk, I feel like the last one is for people who didn't understand what it all was about
21:35:23 <dP> btw, funny fact some TG guys voted for last one at first xD
21:35:46 <frosch123> oh, they needed some beating to get in line? :p
21:37:56 <dP> beating is an awkward way to put it
21:38:42 <dP> anyway, I kinda feel that that poll is somewhat useless for any meaningful conclusions
21:38:51 <dP> well, except that many use pbs only
21:39:29 <andythenorth> an accurate conclusion would be 'some people have their pants in a knot'
21:39:35 <andythenorth> poll shows that well
21:40:02 <frosch123> dP: i would claim that reddit is already dominated by non-newbie players. so if even they mostly use pbs, ...
21:40:19 <andythenorth> some of the questions suggest a parallel very-newbie audience
21:40:30 <andythenorth> I suspect there are two columns on the graph
21:40:33 <andythenorth> at opposite ends
21:40:37 <dP> peter1138, TeamGame aka Rau and co
21:40:42 <glx> priority merge and similar stuff is a niche usecase
21:41:02 <andythenorth> reddit seems to be (a) people utterly clueless about everything up to and including life (b) deep nerds
21:41:25 <andythenorth> I never knew what a prio merge was until the reddit post
21:41:28 <andythenorth> quite interesting idea
21:41:34 <peter1138> "presignals exist specifically for complex logic"
21:41:47 <andythenorth> long reserve PBS :P
21:42:03 <andythenorth> would also fix green signals :P
21:42:15 <andythenorth> probably has HORRIBLE side effects
21:42:16 <glx> we had no other choice in pre-PBS time than using presignals, but now we can avoid them :)
21:42:27 <andythenorth> like long reserve, but then the train breaks down
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21:43:21 <andythenorth> long reserve, but the train with the reservation is MUCH slower than a different train approaching on a merging line
21:43:38 <peter1138> I mean... complex "logic" was a side effect...
21:44:10 <andythenorth> long reserve, but someone missed one tile of elrail
21:44:18 <glx> it's mostly abusing the signal updater :)
21:44:27 <andythenorth> long reserve, but up a hill, and the train is under-powered
21:44:34 <dP> peter1138, times changed :p
21:44:44 * andythenorth plays an advanced version of 'whatabout' gatekeeping :P
21:44:51 <frosch123> glx: it's almost like having a pathfinder setting that changes the behavior of some signal type :p
21:45:39 <glx> yes to solve an issue becaus PBS didn't exist yet
21:46:43 <glx> then people found inventive other usages
21:47:36 <dP> reasons they were created != reasons they're still useful :p
21:48:21 <dP> peter1138, yeah, and guess who wrote it? :p
21:48:57 <frosch123> oh, i also learned from reddit, that TG apparently hates jgrpp for realism
21:49:39 <andythenorth> I lol-ed a bit at that
21:49:45 <glx> do they know they're free to fork ?
21:49:50 <andythenorth> I think that means JGR is winning
21:49:51 <frosch123> i did not know that jgrpp has a realism focus, not sure whether jgr knew that either
21:50:09 <andythenorth> if JGR is both too much realism, and too much advanced gameplay
21:50:11 <andythenorth> I think that's won
21:50:21 <dP> glx, they're not very good at c++ :p
21:51:17 <dP> to a point of being stuck on compiling stage
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22:06:21 <glx> of course using a big spriteset for ground tiles is not the best idea
22:06:24 <andythenorth> nice that yexo's original 'CHIPS is for making nml stations' came real
22:07:04 <glx> but it shows how things can work
22:09:44 <glx> NFO version is using different layouts and select the one to use via callback 14, I'm aiming at 1 layout (well 2 because X and Y) and selection via registers
22:10:21 <glx> multi layer with optional drawing
22:12:39 <frosch123> haha, you added a check for ottd 1.2.0 >=r22723 ? :)
22:12:56 <glx> I copy pasted some examples
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22:33:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on pull request #9002: Change cargo age to have more effect on cargo payment. https://git.io/J1iJo
22:40:33 <andythenorth> comment suggests there's a version of FIRS with a 1:3 input:output ratio
22:40:39 <andythenorth> must be another fork :P
22:42:17 <dP> I like how payment rates on his chart are higher than current ones xD
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22:43:48 <dP> as if it's not broken enough already xD
22:48:02 <andythenorth> funny how I caused all this by adding restaurant cars :P
22:52:31 <dP> well, openttd economy has always been a sore spot
22:54:41 <frosch123> you can't fix an exponential economy :)
22:55:10 <frosch123> either the start is boring because you can't do anything, or you have too much money later
22:55:41 <frosch123> other games have multiple currencies, which do not grow
22:55:57 <dP> well, it's kinda fixed on citymania cb
22:55:59 <frosch123> starcraft has gas, eu4 has monarch points
22:56:12 <dP> there is always something to spend money on
22:56:18 <frosch123> both increase a bit during game, but not really much
22:57:04 <dP> multiple currencies/resources won't be a bad idea for openttd either
22:58:07 * andythenorth is experimenting with multiple currencies in FIRS
22:58:17 <andythenorth> early tests are inconclusive :P
22:58:28 <andythenorth> money, optimism, pollution
22:59:15 <frosch123> we could add signals as currency :p
22:59:37 <dP> I wouldn't mind rails as currency xD
22:59:48 <andythenorth> aren't signals the paid DLC?
23:00:10 <andythenorth> block signals, 3 euro / month
23:00:20 <andythenorth> we will make at least 300 euro
23:00:20 <frosch123> andythenorth: how about some new industry vars: total amount of cargo transported by player, number of rail pieces, total capacity of all player vehicles :p
23:00:40 <frosch123> then you can punish "lots of empty track" and "lots of empty wagons"
23:01:10 <andythenorth> is it too sensible to suggest they're town vars?
23:01:16 <andythenorth> and let station rating cb access town?
23:01:29 <andythenorth> we are supposed to be doing troll ideas? :)
23:01:55 <frosch123> rail pieces per town sounds difficult
23:02:12 <andythenorth> hmm stations can access town?
23:02:21 <dP> just let objects do everything :p
23:02:36 <frosch123> station rating cb is a cargo callback, isn't it?
23:02:36 <andythenorth> oh town vars are boring, don't do much
23:02:43 <andythenorth> yeah it's a cargo cb, I always forget
23:02:50 <andythenorth> that's why it has to be put back into FIRS
23:03:45 <andythenorth> can we have vars for type of signal used?
23:03:56 <frosch123> again nothing new :p
23:04:14 <andythenorth> hmm I could detect 'all PBS' and decide it's 'noob' mode
23:04:23 <andythenorth> and all block, must be super l33t
23:04:59 <andythenorth> one mode has industry closure and one does not
23:05:03 <andythenorth> you decide which :P
23:05:29 <dP> frosch123, can you do PR9002 in newgrf with those? :p
23:05:37 <frosch123> haha, tieing "pbs" to "industry closure" is cool
23:05:55 <dP> destination industry is useful though except by the time cb39 is called there is no single industry anymore
23:05:59 <andythenorth> can we also tie hovercraft availability to pbs or not?
23:06:16 <andythenorth> also can I tell yogscast you'll have land hovercraft for them to use in Jingle Jam? :P
23:07:13 <frosch123> dP: it'S cargo payment, not station rating
23:07:42 <frosch123> it's called on delivery, which knows both source tile and target industry
23:07:56 <frosch123> "source industry" is hard, because it may have closed
23:08:00 <dP> nope, it can be delivered to multiple industries
23:08:16 <frosch123> then you would call the callback multiple times
23:08:44 <dP> then you'll have to group by destination first
23:08:50 * andythenorth is aware that GS is not cb driven
23:08:54 <dP> as calling it for each cargo packet would be too much
23:09:15 <andythenorth> maybe game script should be able to generate newgrf lambdas
23:09:18 <frosch123> anyway, pr9002: half can be done by newgrf. noone wanted to make a testgrf back then
23:09:26 <frosch123> other half of PR can't be done.
23:09:43 <andythenorth> GS -> grf lambdas would be so evil, we should do it
23:10:01 <andythenorth> GS gets to cache a function which grf will use in cbs
23:10:47 <frosch123> does it specify the function in squirrel, or as nfo string? :p
23:11:01 <andythenorth> nfo string via an evil compiler we have to create
23:11:15 <andythenorth> I think it's called 'nml'
23:11:36 <andythenorth> it's such a horrible idea, I really like it
23:12:39 <frosch123> hmm, who would be triggered by a rumour of ottd 13.0 dropping support for grf in favour of directly loading nml?
23:12:55 <andythenorth> I suspect I could name names
23:13:04 <dP> I just wrote a grf generator xD
23:13:07 <andythenorth> I am not going to name names
23:13:39 <andythenorth> don't we have a PR for grf -> nml decompiling?
23:15:23 <glx> it's almost impossible to get nml from nfo or grf
23:15:57 <frosch123> andythenorth: when truepilot is added to truegrf, you can directly import sprites from other license-compatible grfs from bananas :)
23:16:01 <glx> even for nfo generated from nml
23:17:00 <frosch123> glx: probably not impossible, but just unreadable and thus useless
23:17:32 <andythenorth> will truepilot also suggest your grf design for you?
23:18:24 <frosch123> truepilot probably also gives a preview for "community reaction". you can choose between reddit and tt-forums. though the latter somehow always yields "none"
23:19:00 <andythenorth> I suspect it should lead to an OOM
23:19:22 <frosch123> depends whether you run truegrf in chrome
23:19:33 <andythenorth> do we have a return value in grf for 'crash the client'?
23:19:38 <andythenorth> that would be helpful
23:19:50 <andythenorth> 'you have used too much PBS, crash the client'
23:20:08 <frosch123> in older versions there were :)
23:20:38 <frosch123> now you have messages like "broken newgrf: industry production callback triggered an infinite loop"
23:21:34 <frosch123> there was some broken industry newgrf (pretty sure by some citybuilder), which returned an uniitialised register for "repeat production callback"
23:21:45 <frosch123> the grf did not use the register, so it worked if the newgrf was used alone
23:21:55 <frosch123> when some other grf used that register, it would trigger an infinite loop
23:22:27 <andythenorth> I am going to start a poll on reddit
23:22:32 <andythenorth> demanding the return of that
23:22:49 <frosch123> (meanwhile newgrf registers are reset before every cb, esp since people relied on sidechannels to pass data between callbacks...)
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23:24:59 <frosch123> ottd calls like 10 different callbacks to set train properties after refitting
23:25:18 <frosch123> some grf relied on the order in which ottd called them, to pass data in registers between them
23:25:19 <glx> never trust newgrf authors (especially if they coded in pure NFO)
23:25:35 <frosch123> so if ottd changed anything, the grf would be broken :p
23:25:54 <frosch123> i killed that hard, and a minority was pretty upset :p
23:26:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the specs are king, not the implementation
23:26:44 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is, large parts of the specs are basically "this is how TTD happened to work"
23:27:43 <Eddi|zuHause> and large parts of TTDPatch were "this was the easiest way we could shim something in"
23:29:07 <glx> and same happened with NRT, specs mostly come from the initial implementation IIRC
23:29:52 <andythenorth> didn't we agree it doesn't exist and we don't talk about it?
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23:42:40 <milek7> I'm somewhat surprised that ttdpatch didn't just implement callbacks as x86 code
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