IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2021-06-25
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01:59:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TriggeredSnake opened issue #9399: Track 00 of the "All" programme in the jazz jukebox doesn't play https://git.io/Jnbz7
02:07:34 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9399: Track 00 of the "All" programme in the jazz jukebox doesn't play https://git.io/Jnbz7
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07:35:59 <andythenorth> the 'only one town on the map' case could be solved by permitting all industries to locate in town 1, explicit ID check
07:36:12 <andythenorth> it would have unwanted side effects on maps with more towns eh
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08:13:48 <peter1138> if (num_towns < 3) { special case }
08:29:06 <andythenorth> yeah but that var isn't ;)
08:29:10 <andythenorth> and can't be or something
08:30:54 <andythenorth> but then again industries couldn't be more than 16 cargo in or out
08:31:51 <peter1138> Cool, WD My Book NASes doing factory resets, wiping the all the data, "by themselves"
08:52:08 <LordAro> "We have determined that some My Book Live devices have been compromised by a threat actor. In some cases, this compromise has led to a factory reset that appears to erase all data on the device. The My Book Live device received its final firmware update in 2015."
08:54:10 <peter1138> CVE was opened in 2019, but it was EOL, so...
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12:20:35 <orudge> Hmm, apparently my PC doesn't meet the minimum requirements for Windows 11
12:20:41 <orudge> The CPU does not appear to be on the supported list :|
12:20:59 <TrueBrain> I love how the initial reply from WD is in the lines of: "this is not our fault! Hackers did this!" :P
12:21:13 <orudge> though it doesn't actually say what component isn't supported, which is helpful
12:21:43 <TrueBrain> orudge: lol .. sounds about right :D
12:22:54 <TrueBrain> orudge: the TPM2.0 seems to be a showstopper for a lot of people too
12:25:08 <orudge> Yes, it could be I have that disabled (or just not supported), I have no idea to be honest :p
12:25:33 <TrueBrain> I also wouldn't have a clue if I have that or not :D
12:32:48 <peter1138> I found an option to enable Firmware TPM in UEFI, with that it's supported.
12:33:06 <peter1138> One of those options that defaults to disabled, and is pretty well hidden.
12:36:10 <peter1138> I don't really know what it allows, or who it is protecting...
12:40:04 <LordAro> hardware level encryption, basically
12:40:19 <LordAro> means that you can't just take the disk out and read it somewhere else
12:40:42 <orudge> Amazon is now of course sold out of Asus TPM chips!
12:40:45 <peter1138> Yea, except none of my disks are encrypted.
12:41:05 <LordAro> mm, not clear why MS have decided to make this a requirement
12:41:28 <LordAro> we encrypt everything at work, but i've never bothered at home
12:42:19 <LordAro> (not least because the Dell TPM chips have a tendency to go walkabout and you need to completely unplug the computer to get it back
12:44:58 * andythenorth wonders how to make industry generation slow
12:45:06 <andythenorth> or rather, what makes it so slow, so I can avoid it
12:45:42 <peter1138> I remember with PCI-DSS it was simpler to just not encrypt drives, becuase the key management process required was just not supported by, e.g. LUKS.
12:46:27 <orudge> Well there we go, TPM enabled, shows up in Windows, but apparently my PC still doesn't meet the system requirements
12:47:00 <peter1138> Was that Amazon's 5 minute delivery, or you found the UEFI setting? :D
12:47:12 <LordAro> our process for encrypting linux computers is a right pain
12:47:34 <LordAro> doesn't do TPM, and remotely decrypting something is tricky
12:47:47 <peter1138> Key rotation, shared knowledge (no single-user, etc) was not really possible.
12:48:21 <LordAro> dropbear in initramfs works, but is very finicky with DNS and DHCP renewals and all that
12:48:51 <orudge> Turns out it is integrated in my motherboard after all
12:49:16 <peter1138> My PC is compatible.
12:49:30 <peter1138> Turns out Windows 10 has a memory protection feature that I can't enable because of drivers...
12:52:51 <peter1138> Isolated browsing in Edge. Who uses Edge?
12:53:37 <LordAro> edge is nice now that it's actually chrome
12:53:46 <LordAro> better than chrome, in several ways
12:53:52 <andythenorth> nice to know I'm not the only one with linux encryption struggle bus
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12:54:21 <andythenorth> encryption works fine, prod ops for it are ugh
12:54:31 <TrueBrain> on a virtualization cluster, just use SAN encryption instead of trying to do it on OS level :P
12:54:43 <glx> I think my PC won't be compatible
12:55:36 <peter1138> I appear to have acquired USB devices that all have original USB B-type connectors. Run out of cables (and ports)
12:55:48 <glx> unpopulated TPM header on motherboard
12:56:05 <peter1138> OpenTTD developer funds ;-)
12:58:00 <glx> wow it was fast, clicked on check button, immediate response you can't
12:58:24 <peter1138> Yes, it's pretty instant either way.
12:59:36 <LordAro> no UEFI? how old is it? :p
12:59:45 <glx> oh funny on french page requirements are simpler, no UEFI nor TPM listed
13:00:49 <andythenorth> TrueBrain that assumes a SAN :P
13:00:58 <andythenorth> the prod ops to get to a SAN are....ugh
13:01:05 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: a virtualization cluster without a SAN is not ... really a cluster of any kind
13:01:16 <TrueBrain> the word "cluster" kinda demands a SAN :)
13:01:46 <LordAro> we just have a lot of very powerful desktops, no fancy virtualisation cluster here
13:02:22 <LordAro> they trip the breakers when there's a powercut and force us to unplug most of the office before it'll stay on again
13:02:28 <andythenorth> TrueBrain that assumes a virtualisation cluster
13:02:46 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: that is what my sentence said yes, very well read, well done sir
13:03:00 <andythenorth> I refer you to the Irish joke
13:03:39 <TrueBrain> "on a bike, you drive on 2 wheels" - "that assumes you use a bike"
13:03:47 <TrueBrain> NO SHIT! Sometimes I am shocked by the level of intelligence :P
13:04:02 <peter1138> We have a SAN but it's massive, power-hungry, and the storage is something like 18TB over 48 drives. And the fibre switches are... meh.
13:04:28 <andythenorth> "the way to solve your problem is to already have solved your problem"
13:05:23 * andythenorth now using patched nml in patched openttd, with patched grfs
13:05:26 <TrueBrain> yes, sorry andythenorth , we should all been solving your issue :P
13:05:28 <TrueBrain> I forgot about that :D
13:05:34 <peter1138> Oh, not even that much space.
13:06:29 <andythenorth> what shall I call it?
13:06:34 <andythenorth> most likely it will be BrokenPP
13:06:39 <peter1138> Also the SAN requires Java 6 to manage it.
13:06:43 <TrueBrain> I once had a customer that refused to enable disk-encryption on their SAN as it increased the CPU usage on that SAN
13:06:46 <TrueBrain> like .. what else is that CPU doing?
13:07:01 <TrueBrain> but no, the CPU should stay below 10%
13:07:06 <TrueBrain> because of "reasons"
13:07:10 <TrueBrain> people are funny sometimes
13:07:22 <andythenorth> would limit the coin miner though
13:07:32 <peter1138> probably affects IO latency
13:07:40 <TrueBrain> peter1138: 100% it does, yes
13:07:53 <TrueBrain> nothing probable about that :P
13:08:05 <andythenorth> I have a new Jesus Phone
13:08:11 <andythenorth> it has no obvious on button
13:08:20 <andythenorth> you sort of lift it up to your face and it turns on
13:09:14 <andythenorth> which apparently nobody else will dare buy in case they got mocked for Small Hands meme
13:09:23 <andythenorth> by mean tech bloggers and people on reddit
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13:11:25 <TrueBrain> lol, the PC Health thingy claims my PC can't run Win11 either .. pretty sure that is a lie :D
13:11:51 <TrueBrain> but yeah, TPM is most likely not enabled :P
13:16:46 <TrueBrain> yeah, enabling it makes it go all green on me
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13:43:39 <TrueBrain> 10.13 was EOL last November, so from our "we support what-ever the OS vendor is supporting" argument we are fine .. but Steam supports 10.11+ .. which made me prompt this question :D
13:55:58 <glx> I don't know if the minimum version is to build or to run, as the issue is with std::variant
13:57:10 <LordAro> make our own std::variant!
14:33:31 <TrueBrain> and the issue is with std::visit, a missing exception
14:33:41 <TrueBrain> there are workarounds, but that is a lot of effort and really hard to test for us
14:47:59 <orudge> Mojave (10.14) seems a reasonable baseline from an end user point of view, to me
14:57:36 <andythenorth> every test of industry -> town storage
14:57:57 <andythenorth> concludes that I'm better off just using an existing var
14:58:10 * andythenorth needs to try harder
15:23:18 <peter1138> It's nearly payday and I don't need a 3D printer but do I want one?
15:24:29 <TrueBrain> The amount of shit I printed over the last 2 years .. everyone should have one :p
15:24:42 <peter1138> Oh no. I'd have to research what to buy...
15:25:07 <TrueBrain> I am biased btw .. turns out I am pretty decent in making 3D designs for stuff
15:25:14 <TrueBrain> so if something breaks these days .. I print a replacement part :P
15:25:29 <TrueBrain> doesn't work well for a girlfriend btw, expensive print
15:25:54 <TrueBrain> what-ever you buy, you will spend a few more on upgrades, as very soon you are annoyed by the lack of NNN
15:26:04 <TrueBrain> I started with a sticky bed, but upgraded to a glass one real quick
15:26:14 <TrueBrain> can't believe I tried a non-glass bed first ..
15:26:35 <TrueBrain> that is the whole point of a glass bed in my book :P
15:26:57 <TrueBrain> similar with the firmware ... keep it stock? Fuck no
15:27:00 <TrueBrain> upgraded within a month
15:27:09 <TrueBrain> "I don't need a raspberry pi to control the printer"
15:27:24 <TrueBrain> printing is 1000x easier with it
15:27:37 <TrueBrain> "what use is a webcam?!" .. well .. without it printing is dreadful
15:27:40 <glx> not requiring a connection to PC is vital too
15:28:18 <TrueBrain> "1 PLA is enough to test this stuff with" .. few weeks later .. I have a shit ton of PLA, PLEG .. still no ABS, I don't want to try that :D
15:28:31 <TrueBrain> so yeah ... make sure to reserve some time too peter1138 , not just money :P
15:29:22 <glx> oh and a room where noise doesn't matter ;)
15:29:35 <TrueBrain> or ... buy better controllers that make less noise :P
15:29:44 <TrueBrain> but yeah .. it is an annoying sound after a while
15:29:51 <TrueBrain> especially if you start 1+ hour prints :D
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15:30:11 <TrueBrain> worst part of most stock printers, they do not have diodes between the stepper motors and the controller
15:30:19 <TrueBrain> meaning that if you move the bed back and forth, the controller powers up
15:30:23 <TrueBrain> which is hilarious, but also really bad
15:30:42 <andythenorth> 3D printers sound like fish tanks
15:30:55 <andythenorth> there's always another thing to buy
15:31:05 <andythenorth> and they require consumables
15:31:06 <TrueBrain> in the end I bought a pretty cheap Ender 3 .. and upgraded it far beyond its initial cost :P
15:31:28 <andythenorth> so should I allow EAF in BOF towns?
15:31:35 <glx> probably still less than buying something fully upgraded
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15:31:46 <andythenorth> town radius ain't so big on a lot of maps
15:31:57 <andythenorth> it would be good to be able to agglomerate neighbouring towns
15:32:05 <andythenorth> so I could create, e.g. a region
15:32:28 <andythenorth> "give me the map in regions of [3] neighbouring towns"
15:32:40 <andythenorth> "give me the map in regions of [7] neighbouring towns"
15:33:15 <andythenorth> each region gets an index
15:33:20 <andythenorth> each region gets some perm storage
15:33:40 <andythenorth> but multiple layers of regions can be defined for different purposes
15:34:05 <glx> stop trying to do GS in newgrf :)
15:35:00 <andythenorth> stop trying to do the economy in GS, it can't do it :P
15:35:16 <andythenorth> repeat that conversation for last 10 years
15:35:33 * andythenorth got bored of that conversation, is now just doing GS in newgrf
15:38:22 <andythenorth> current problem: I have defined 'keystone' industries, which are a critical part of [some chain]
15:38:33 <andythenorth> and the other industries won't build in a town without the keystone
15:38:50 <andythenorth> the keystone sets a flag in a town register when built
15:38:53 <andythenorth> the others read it
15:39:08 <andythenorth> then I allowed two different keystones into a town :P
15:39:13 * andythenorth poor life choices
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16:00:35 <Taschi> huh, i thought i might try and fix #9396 but apparently glx already did
16:00:54 <glx> yeah I had an idea, so I tried :)
16:02:00 <Taschi> i guess my PR and yours are going to clash, tho
16:02:33 <Taschi> we both touched line 1401ff. in openttd.cpp
16:02:53 <glx> yeah they are on the same area so conflicts are expected
16:02:58 <Taschi> shouldn't be too hard to merge them
16:03:21 <Taschi> but it will require an additional commit
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16:22:04 <LordAro> we prefer rebasing to merge commits
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16:36:51 <Taschi> either way manual code changes will be required because glx changed a bit from openttd.cpp which i refactored into another file entirely
16:37:15 <LordAro> not a problem, we're quite able to deal with conflicts :p
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16:38:32 <Taschi> ngl, if making toast was as hard as soldering i'd have starved ages ago
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17:52:46 <Samu> the amount of code i have just for removing a single canal tile
17:53:02 <Samu> checking if that would block connections
18:00:53 <peter1138> Why not just not remove a canal tile?
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18:51:07 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:00:14 <Taschi> so i'm kind of lost on what i could do next, now that glx has rudely stolen my ticket from me
19:01:55 <Taschi> i'd be grateful for suggestions
19:02:38 <Taschi> (tho i'll probably spend the weekend with a mix of bike trips and being too exhausted to think straight)
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19:04:19 <FLHerne> Taschi: read through andy's complaints about newgrf spec and figure out if any are actionable :p
19:04:43 <FLHerne> but that way lies only madness
19:05:34 <FLHerne> Various annoyances with road vehicle overtaking?
19:06:17 <FLHerne> 9033, 9236, the issue that articulated vehicles can't overtake at all
19:06:20 <Taschi> i've never done anything with NewGRF aside from downloading and playing with them, so I'm probably bad at identifying pain points with that specific API
19:06:42 <FLHerne> which is so longstanding that there isn't even an issue open for it :p
19:07:46 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #9395: Change #9188: Netsave now behaves like autosave https://git.io/Jnxpt
19:09:03 <FLHerne> which is mitigated by rotating netsaves, but seems independent from it
19:10:04 <Taschi> yeah, i saw that... question is, is there an easy way to identify if the current game is the title game?
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19:10:56 <Taschi> the netsave rotation thing definitely means #8887 will mostly be harmless
19:11:36 <Taschi> btw i've seen your review comments, will try to fix them tomorrow
19:13:16 <Taschi> tbh i'm still trying to figure out what pointers and references really are, most my experience is in Java where pointers don't really exist
19:14:20 <Taschi> and i'm mostly here because at work i occasionally spend an entire week troubleshooting problems with my IDE and i thought actually writing code might be nice
19:17:46 <Taschi> btw, do you have any code style/formatting validator like Checkstyle or Sonarqube?
19:18:35 <glx> no, and I'm always fighting with MSVC on some format :)
19:21:51 <Taschi> eh, the "else on newline" thing you pointed out is actually exactly what we do at work in Java so i should be able to remember it
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19:53:02 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: As I don't really use OSX, I wouldn't mind either way :) I would somewhat mind newer than 10.14, as 10.15+ (11) runs noticeably choppier in VMware.
19:53:22 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: haha, I have the same, yes :P
19:53:36 <TrueBrain> well, I guess we will just merge that PR in that case, as nobody seems to object :P
19:53:49 <TrueBrain> well, still needs a review, but I will do that tomorrow
19:54:06 <michi_cc> I haven't look if std::visit is something 3rdparty-able.
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19:59:03 <TrueBrain> well, we can just merge this PR, and look at those things later if people complain, I guess
20:01:56 <michi_cc> JGR has patched for the std::optional (C++17) on OSX, so we can just wait to see which solutions appears in JGRPP :D
20:02:35 <michi_cc> I mean the compile time SDK/XCode dependency, not some runtime dependency.
20:03:30 <michi_cc> Well, I think he just undid our de-vendoring of 3rdparty optional, but I infer from this that he might do something about 10.14+ :D
20:04:26 <glx> our main issue with std::variant is runtime dependency
20:05:02 <glx> for compile we are on 10.15 anyway
20:05:09 <michi_cc> I know, I'm just arguing tongue-in-cheek that we can outsource that to JGR.
20:05:39 <TrueBrain> glx: huh? I think both me and michi_cc compile on 10.14 :P
20:06:03 <michi_cc> It was snails 10.12 XCode that is too old to compile master.
20:06:46 <glx> anyway we still have 10.12 users (remember all the crash reports)
20:08:25 <glx> and apple uses a weird clang versioning :)
20:21:24 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Taschi120 commented on pull request #9397: Feature: Persistant rotation of numbered autosave after restart https://git.io/JnpIx
20:22:06 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Taschi120 commented on pull request #9395: Change #9188: Netsave now behaves like autosave https://git.io/JnpLv
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20:46:55 <Samu> if there is a connection between t_mp_sp and t_mp_sn via t_mp, why do I care if there is a connection between t_mp and t_2mp
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20:48:17 <Samu> i made this code last year, i can't remember why I did the check like that
20:48:35 <Samu> but today, on reviewing it, that line 867 intrigues me
20:48:58 <glx> visually I'm not sur it's possible to connect t_mp_sp and t_mp_sn via t_mp
20:50:27 <Samu> i'm trying to check if there is still a connection between t_mp_sp and t_mp_sn if t_mp is not available
20:50:50 <Samu> in the picture, a lock blocks the connection, and i wanna check if there's an alternative connection
20:52:58 <Samu> the lock doesn't actually exist yet
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20:57:08 <glx> I think t_mp-t_2mp check is useless here
20:58:43 <Samu> that's what I think too now, if only i could remember what i was thinking last year :(
20:58:52 <glx> but it's an easy shortcut
20:59:16 <glx> if there's no link between mp and 2mp no need to check the other tiles
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