IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2021-03-30
⏴ go to previous day
00:04:01 *** FLHerne has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
01:11:32 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
01:13:00 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
01:17:18 *** Hazzard has quit IRC (Server closed connection)
01:17:31 *** Hazzard has joined #openttd
01:17:34 *** Webster has quit IRC (Server closed connection)
01:17:50 *** XeryusTC has quit IRC (Server closed connection)
01:18:18 *** XeryusTC has joined #openttd
01:18:35 *** Webster has joined #openttd
01:23:42 *** blathijs has quit IRC (Server closed connection)
01:24:15 *** blathijs has joined #openttd
01:26:38 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
01:26:51 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
01:42:08 *** Wuzzy has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
02:25:23 *** Wormnest has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
02:27:54 *** D-HUND has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
02:49:35 *** Smedles has joined #openttd
03:39:26 *** Flygon_ has joined #openttd
03:39:54 *** Wuzzy2 has quit IRC (Quit: Wuzzy2)
03:47:04 *** Flygon has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
04:49:42 *** lobster has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
06:02:20 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
06:22:20 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
06:33:33 *** debdog has quit IRC (Quit: Initiating getting-the-hell-out-of-here maneuver!)
06:33:39 *** didac has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
07:29:18 *** andythenorth has quit IRC (Quit: andythenorth)
07:36:35 <TrueBrain> does he want you to dial 112?
07:38:26 <LordAro> i hope not, i don't have a lot more information than "some guy in <town>"
07:42:06 <TrueBrain> I love how the tugs are under water
07:42:19 <TrueBrain> that note is just briliant
07:42:48 <LordAro> i think they're trying to go for some sort of perspective
07:42:52 <LordAro> but it's just... all wrong
07:43:29 <TrueBrain> you can't use more than one in a single image :P
07:48:07 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
08:02:55 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ghisvail commented on issue #8896: Flatpak: Please include the free OPL3 MIDI SoundFont in "/app/share/sounds/sf2" https://git.io/JY3m1
08:05:36 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
08:08:56 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
08:15:20 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
08:22:06 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
08:33:56 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
08:35:09 *** supermop_Home_ has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
09:06:40 *** azubieta60 has joined #openttd
09:07:43 *** azubieta6 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
10:32:55 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
11:00:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DonaldDuck313 opened issue #8912: Ship can't decide whether or not it wants to go for maintenance https://git.io/JYBFD
11:08:30 *** mikegrb has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
11:08:35 *** mikegrb has joined #openttd
11:34:36 <Timberwolf> That's how to solve the "what scale is OpenTTD?" question that keeps coming up. Have a "Note: some objects not to scale" message constantly displayed on the bottom left of the screen.
11:40:06 <Wolf01> Object in mirrors might appear closer than they are
11:42:56 *** J0anJosep has joined #openttd
11:55:14 <Timberwolf> Well, now I'll have that song in my head all afternoon.
11:55:55 *** andythenorth has quit IRC (Quit: andythenorth)
12:13:04 *** Flygon_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
12:29:34 *** supermop_Home_ has joined #openttd
12:43:39 *** argoneus has joined #openttd
12:54:20 *** jgx has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
13:46:00 <_dp_> warning: objects in the game may appear more realistic than they are :p
14:41:04 *** Flygon has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
15:15:07 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
15:16:04 <andythenorth> I _think_ that's improved?
15:28:37 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
15:41:17 <andythenorth> I'm going to tune a few more colours, then I think it's good enough
15:44:58 <andythenorth> there are 14 linear steps in the graph that follows the salt chain
15:46:27 <andythenorth> this limits the size of the font because scaling
15:47:09 <andythenorth> I can distort the linearity, but it's starts to fight graphviz, especially dot which prefers clean DAGs without back links
16:03:42 *** J0anJosep has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
16:44:06 *** Progman has joined #openttd
16:54:34 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
17:03:05 <andythenorth> hm can I be bothered to tune this further, or shall I tidy up all my JFDI code?
17:03:20 <andythenorth> FIRS 4.0.0 release is Thursday :P
17:16:39 *** gelignite has quit IRC (Quit: Stay safe!)
17:33:56 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
17:42:16 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #8901: Fix #8565: Stopped road vehicle displays a speed different than 0 https://git.io/JYZcF
17:42:19 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #8565: Stopped road vehicle displays a speed different than 0. https://git.io/Jtfri
17:44:12 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8906: Change: [CMake] Copy AI/GS compatibility files to build dir https://git.io/JY0a4
17:49:06 <TrueBrain> easiest backport evah
17:50:23 <TrueBrain> LordAro: please squash more, rebase less .. now I need to look up the PR numbers for all those you rebased :P
17:51:19 <LordAro> different to usual way of backporting translations
17:51:36 <TrueBrain> yeah .. this was way easier :)
17:53:25 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:53:57 <TrueBrain> I was aware of that :) But we have to do it the 1st again anyway :)
17:56:10 <TrueBrain> ^^ gives you a bit of time to do your language thingy LordAro :)
17:57:21 <TrueBrain> guess tomorrow I will write news post, Steam news, social texts, fix the images on Steam, and prepare livestream ..
17:58:08 <LordAro> and do all the extra releases
17:58:14 <TrueBrain> I am not going to do that
17:58:21 <TrueBrain> I think I already said that, not? Hmm .. most likely :)
17:58:29 <TrueBrain> just to set expectations here :)
17:59:20 <TrueBrain> 88 files changed in master vs 1.11 .. damn
18:01:13 <LordAro> i should be able to do most of them
18:01:29 <LordAro> does that 88 include translations?
18:01:37 <LordAro> i imagine most of the rest is your terrain stuff :p
18:01:44 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I think orudge already did one this week :)
18:02:28 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8901: Fix #8565: Stopped road vehicle displays a speed different than 0 https://git.io/JY0rr
18:03:57 <TrueBrain> okay, 1.11 smoketest works, so at least it starts etc :P
18:04:42 <TrueBrain> LordAro: mainly if you can do OpenGFX today/tomorrow, that would be great
18:05:01 <TrueBrain> the nag screen about missing 11 sprites is annoying :D
18:06:06 <frosch123> TrueBrain: that message is not shown for releases
18:06:17 <TrueBrain> frosch123: it isn't? Lol :)
18:06:36 <frosch123> bool missing_sprites = _missing_extra_graphics > 0 && !IsReleasedVersion();
18:06:39 <TrueBrain> someone was annoyed enough by that that he wrote code for it? :P
18:06:41 <frosch123> bool missing_lang = _current_language->missing >= _settings_client.gui.missing_strings_threshold && !IsReleasedVersion();
18:07:02 <frosch123> i think the missing_lang message was first
18:07:07 <frosch123> so it may just have been copy&paste
18:07:23 <frosch123> anyway, quite sure there were multple years without ogfx release
18:07:37 <TrueBrain> nevertheless, sounds like the right thing to do if LordAro can make the time :D
18:07:46 <frosch123> or rather, there were ogfx releases, but noone uploaded them to binaries
18:08:23 <frosch123> i have time after the livestream :p
18:08:44 <TrueBrain> rather before, but we will see how it all works out :)
18:10:52 <supermop_Home_> all this vaccine site refreshing has enabled me to convince captchas that I am actually a bot
18:25:52 <snail_UES_> I’ve never heard of features being removed because of a bug in the code...
18:26:02 <snail_UES_> usually, bugs gets squashed for features to be included :)
18:26:44 <snail_UES_> supermop_Home_: don’t mention that. I’ve been trying for hours
18:27:00 <andythenorth> I'm not prepared to retest a bad feature for another half a day
18:27:15 <andythenorth> so deletion seems most likely
18:27:25 <snail_UES_> btw, why did you drop running costs when a restaurant car is included?
18:27:53 <andythenorth> it was the only gameplay mechanic I could find for them
18:28:03 <andythenorth> but everything to do with the stupid cargo aging feature is absolutely broken
18:28:15 <andythenorth> that feature is on my top 3 list of stupids
18:28:29 <snail_UES_> the function works like a hyperbula. Nice idea, bad implementation
18:28:29 <andythenorth> it's absolutely completely useless
18:28:55 <snail_UES_> I also use it to differentiate classes for passengers, but it has hardly any tangible effect
18:29:07 <andythenorth> until a player turns up and proves that it does
18:29:23 <andythenorth> using some combination of route length etc that you never envisaged
18:29:30 <andythenorth> and then they don't like it
18:29:41 <frosch123> TrueBrain: cheater! with that "100% rainforest" you are just baiting for your bingo card
18:29:54 <TrueBrain> well, that is the one thing that is 100% possible :P
18:30:10 <andythenorth> 100% rainforest?
18:30:14 <andythenorth> what about rocks?
18:30:22 <frosch123> there isn't even a setting for percentage of rainforest
18:30:23 <andythenorth> I find your claim to be much hype
18:30:34 <andythenorth> I shall disprove you
18:31:12 <andythenorth> snail_UES_ I wanted to do negative running costs on restaurant cars, to represent earnings from sale of beer and pies
18:31:13 <frosch123> isn't that tree-brush scenario-editor only?
18:31:19 <andythenorth> but we can't have negative run costs
18:31:35 <andythenorth> because some grf somewhere might have set a run cost value > 128
18:31:37 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
18:32:04 <TrueBrain> frosch123: there you go
18:32:21 <frosch123> i just want to ensure the bingo cards are fair :)
18:32:23 <andythenorth> and we also can't have a per-vehicle cargo payment multiplier, JGR explained why, but I don't have the reason
18:32:40 <andythenorth> probably transfer credits though
18:32:45 <snail_UES_> andythenorth: true, but I doubt they’d offset the entire consist’s running cost significantly… those include fuel, maintenance...
18:33:25 <andythenorth> dunno, pies are quite good profit
18:33:55 <andythenorth> anyway this is why I concluded remove restaurant cars
18:34:03 <andythenorth> stuff like this just doesn't work in openttd
18:34:19 <andythenorth> the game is great at doing e.g. 64 meaningless railtypes
18:34:39 <andythenorth> not so much for kind of fun stuff
18:34:43 <snail_UES_> agreed, 64 is “too much”, but 16 was too little
18:35:01 <andythenorth> I'm not against people having 64 meaningless railtypes
18:35:18 <andythenorth> it's like having 64 meaningless cargos
18:35:31 <andythenorth> better than only having 32
18:35:40 <snail_UES_> unless people start asking for a separation between “wider” narrow gauge tracks, and metric tracks :P
18:35:59 <andythenorth> but mostly newgrf is suited to 'moar'
18:36:09 <andythenorth> 'interesting' does not really work
18:36:23 <andythenorth> and the historical attempts at that are weird
18:36:41 <snail_UES_> historical attempts are fun
18:36:45 <TrueBrain> okay .. so now only "annoying images for Steam" left .. that really really is something for tomorrow :P
18:36:53 <andythenorth> well cargo aging is a failed experiment
18:36:59 <frosch123> TrueBrain: how many this time?
18:37:02 <andythenorth> and the user bits on trains are weird
18:37:11 <andythenorth> and the custom cargo payment CB is weird
18:37:13 <snail_UES_> don’t touch the user bits :p
18:37:28 <andythenorth> and the railcar flag is odd
18:37:40 <snail_UES_> user bits are the only thing that allows for features that would be otherwise impossible
18:37:42 <TrueBrain> anyway, if any of you can review the backport PR tonight, that would be lovely
18:37:56 <andythenorth> I never found a use for user bits ever
18:38:09 <andythenorth> afaict, they're for detecting things like restaurant cars in the consist
18:38:12 <snail_UES_> because you engineered your trainset in a very different way from mine
18:38:20 <frosch123> andythenorth: you would have to disable your set in presence of any other set :p
18:38:32 <andythenorth> frosch123 that has a certain appeal
18:38:40 <andythenorth> the one-giant-grf approach
18:38:51 <snail_UES_> I use them to assign a livery to the entire consist. Since “views” for engines were never implemented, they’re the only way to do that
18:38:53 <andythenorth> can I disable if daylength isn't 1?
18:39:17 <andythenorth> oh that's the other top 3 stupid feature in my list of 6 top 3 stupid features
18:39:22 <andythenorth> or maybe it's 7 top 3 stupid features now
18:39:29 <frosch123> andythenorth: there was a time, when angry newgrf authors disabled their set in ottd, because it did not behave like ttdp. didn't you recently consider the same for jgrpp? :p
18:39:45 <andythenorth> frosch123 I did, but I like JGR too much as a contributor
18:39:54 <snail_UES_> like, the livery override?
18:39:59 <andythenorth> nah the liveries cb
18:40:01 <snail_UES_> I don’t use it. I go all the way with cb36
18:40:23 <andythenorth> how do you let players select the livery?
18:41:00 <andythenorth> it doesn't actually work, but I should probably stop posting videos of that :)
18:41:02 <snail_UES_> in my set, players select the livery by playing with the leading engine’s userbits
18:41:18 <snail_UES_> once those are set, all the vehicles attached to it follow the same livery
18:41:20 <andythenorth> how do they configure the user bits?
18:41:30 <snail_UES_> by refitting the first engine
18:41:42 <snail_UES_> you buy it and it appears with a default livery
18:43:07 <frosch123> you use userbits to provide information from the engine to the wagons?
18:43:17 <frosch123> that's the only case where you don't need userbits :p
18:43:49 <snail_UES_> no, with the userbits. I use the “refitted” function in m4nfo (which connects to the refit callback)
18:44:03 <andythenorth> oh the livery CB
18:44:14 <andythenorth> do you want to see my video of how that just doesn't work?
18:44:19 <snail_UES_> each refitting stage corresponds to a particular userbit settings
18:44:20 <andythenorth> I have 2, but one is better than the other
18:44:34 <snail_UES_> so you’re telling me my set doesn’t work? :D
18:44:40 <snail_UES_> even if it works exactly as intended?
18:44:41 <andythenorth> well the video is RUKTs
18:44:47 <frosch123> snail_UES_: yes, and wagons can read the refit status of the engine directly, no need for userbits there
18:44:55 <andythenorth> but I'm not picking on RUKTS, the CB is broken in OpenTTD
18:44:59 <snail_UES_> frosch123: this is where you’re not correct
18:45:15 <snail_UES_> it’s not that easy. If it were that easy, I wouldn’t need userbits at all
18:45:33 <frosch123> haha, no, i am very correct :)
18:45:46 <snail_UES_> frosch123: I’m sorry, but you’re not :)
18:45:46 <andythenorth> if it's all first engine parent should do
18:45:54 <andythenorth> is it the livestream already?
18:46:01 <andythenorth> does TrueBrain know that we should be live?
18:46:14 <snail_UES_> I need userbits, to check if different types of engines can be attached in multiple traction.
18:46:27 <snail_UES_> let’s say I have two types of engines
18:46:34 <snail_UES_> engine 1 can have livery A, B or C
18:46:47 <snail_UES_> so refitting stages are: 0 is A, 1 is B, 2 is C
18:46:55 <snail_UES_> engine 2 can have livery B, D, E
18:47:05 <snail_UES_> so refitting stages are: 0 is B, 1 is D, 2 is E
18:47:08 <LordAro> snail_UES_: telling frosch123 that he is wrong about newgrfs is... "courageous"
18:47:18 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: yes, 45 minutes ago, it ended already
18:47:18 <snail_UES_> but he is in this case :)
18:47:32 <andythenorth> TrueBrain blink and we missed it
18:47:47 <snail_UES_> the only way to figure out whether engines 1 and 2 have the same livery (in this case, it must be “B”) is through userbits
18:47:54 <andythenorth> incidentally I took child #2 for covid test this morning, hope that is negative
18:47:58 <snail_UES_> you can’t go there by simple refitting
18:48:07 <andythenorth> doing a livestream with a fever would be 'interesting'
18:48:22 <snail_UES_> because, in my set, sometimes, livery “A” for engine “1” is unavailable (if certain wagons are attached to it)
18:48:39 <snail_UES_> so refit cycle “0” can be either livery “A” or livery “B”, depending on what’s attached to the consist
18:48:44 <Timberwolf> andythenorth: Can you catch covid from a livestream?
18:48:45 <frosch123> snail_UES_: again, it's possible without userbits. you are free to go the detour via userbits, if that is easier for you
18:48:48 <snail_UES_> this is why frosch123 is wrong :)
18:48:50 <frosch123> but they are not needed
18:48:51 <andythenorth> Timberwolf not as far as we know
18:49:02 <andythenorth> snail_UES_ also which cargo do you use for this?
18:49:04 <snail_UES_> frosch123: they are needed in this case
18:49:10 <andythenorth> and will I be banning the set with FIRS? :)
18:49:19 <snail_UES_> andythenorth: passengers
18:49:28 <frosch123> snail_UES_: the engineid can also be read. a lot of newgrf use that. andy does it a lot, quite sure pikka and V also do
18:49:43 <snail_UES_> of course, I also read the engineid
18:49:55 <snail_UES_> but as I explained before, engineid and refitting cycle are not enough
18:50:02 <andythenorth> sounds complicated
18:50:08 * andythenorth keeps things simple
18:50:11 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: did you finish (and share) the script btw? :D
18:50:21 <snail_UES_> you have to check for the presence or not of certain wagons, and sometimes, certain variants of it (like, a mail wagon built before 1904)
18:50:33 <andythenorth> TrueBrain no, I have a draft, but work has gone a bit silly, and I have potentially covid child #1
18:50:41 <andythenorth> oops wrong child, not that it matters
18:50:47 <andythenorth> but I am confident
18:50:48 <TrueBrain> more reason to not leave the rest hanging :)
18:51:09 <snail_UES_> andythenorth: yes, my set is not simple :p
18:51:14 <snail_UES_> maybe my mind is too complicated?
18:51:18 <andythenorth> TrueBrain this is a dry fun for disagreeing
18:51:41 <andythenorth> frosch123 so do you have 10 'top 3 worst newgrf things'?
18:51:54 * andythenorth wonders who has longest list of worst 3 things
18:52:01 <Timberwolf> Reddit already did that.
18:52:07 <Timberwolf> 4x, 2x, and 32bpp.
18:52:17 <frosch123> andythenorth: i have like 10 things, but only 3 or 4 are entertaining
18:52:22 <frosch123> the rest is "too technical"
18:52:38 <andythenorth> well you can also mention the time I broke the nml repot
18:52:49 <andythenorth> that was actually one of my worst openttd days
18:53:08 <frosch123> you have to talk about that, because i don't remember it :)
18:53:37 <andythenorth> I pushed an NRT early draft to master on openttdcoop
18:53:44 <andythenorth> probably with hg
18:54:03 <andythenorth> was a bit stressful
18:54:22 <andythenorth> do you remember the fork bomb I sent you?
18:55:13 <frosch123> i remember how you split a 20 second compile into 100 parts, which each needed 0.5 seconds for startup
18:55:23 <FLHerne> andythenorth: "bug in nml means pax car running costs are 3x what they are shown as in purchase menu" <- does that mean "bug in NMLC" ?
18:55:32 <frosch123> so they did 0.5 seconds startup, and 0.2 seconds actual work
18:55:36 *** Xaroth5 has joined #openttd
18:55:48 <andythenorth> FLHerne yes, it's related to result returned if var access fails
18:55:54 <andythenorth> frosch123 knows more
18:55:55 <frosch123> FLHerne: it's not a "bug". it's a missing feature
18:57:15 <frosch123> FLHerne: newgrf have a concept about some variables not being "available". reading them kind of "throws an exception", aborts the current switch, and continues with the first switch case
18:57:34 <frosch123> the idea is to make nml insert a "case 1..0" as first case everywheere
18:57:42 <frosch123> and link it to "defined behavior"
18:57:46 <frosch123> by default "CB_FAILED"
18:58:13 <frosch123> currently nml explains the raw nfo behavior, which noone expects, not even nfo coders :p
18:58:21 <frosch123> s/explains/exposes/
18:59:02 <frosch123> so, the "bug" is a missing "abstraction" to make nml not as terrible as nfo :)
18:59:58 <frosch123> FLHerne: oh, just in case you wonder. the nfo specs mention this in a single sentence, hidden in some paragraph :p
19:00:01 *** Xaroth has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
19:00:22 <frosch123> you are more likely to discover it by reading ottd source
19:00:50 <frosch123> let's create an issue for this
19:03:34 <Wolf01> andythenorth how is going with cargoflow?
19:03:59 <andythenorth> Wolf01 I learnt how to cluster in subgraphs
19:04:34 <andythenorth> I mostly cluster cargos
19:04:59 <andythenorth> it gives the 'shape' of the economy much more now
19:05:07 <andythenorth> kind of relates to how it's played in game
19:05:14 <andythenorth> the order of connecting things
19:07:26 <snail_UES_> andythenorth: any reason why “paints and coating” (COAT) needed to have a separate label than ECS’s “dyes” cargo?
19:07:44 <snail_UES_> other than giving more work to other trainset developers, of course… ;)
19:10:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 opened issue #198: Provide abstraction for intuitive behavior of "unavailable" variables https://git.io/JY0SX
19:12:08 <andythenorth> snail_UES_ because re-using cargo labels is a proven failure pattern?
19:12:13 <andythenorth> there is zero cost to a new one
19:12:29 <snail_UES_> but ECS and FIRS will never co-exist in a game
19:12:40 <andythenorth> I am failing to see the case :)
19:13:05 <snail_UES_> using the same label for a very similar cargo would mean that my set would already know how to treat COAT in FIRS
19:13:16 <TrueBrain> that is just stupid
19:13:34 <andythenorth> you'll never be able to keep up with FIRS cargos
19:13:41 <andythenorth> it's not even a goal
19:13:48 <snail_UES_> like this, instead, I’ll have to work on my code and specify that COAT has to be treated just like DYES
19:14:05 <andythenorth> I can't keep up with FIRS cargos
19:14:07 <snail_UES_> why? don’t you want other trainsets to support your industries?
19:14:17 <andythenorth> I literally don't care either way
19:14:22 <andythenorth> I tried caring, it has no value
19:14:28 <andythenorth> just wastes a lot of motivation
19:14:56 <snail_UES_> but what’s the fun in having so many cargo types in an industry set, if no vehicle set will ever be able to keep up?
19:15:05 <andythenorth> I don't understand the question
19:15:34 <TrueBrain> I think I did not break it ...
19:15:40 <andythenorth> Timberwolf livestream!
19:15:46 <andythenorth> how to keep up with FIRS cargos!
19:15:47 <FLHerne> The main purpose of cargo types is to make your trains look pretty and varied
19:16:09 <frosch123> andythenorth: cargo classes!
19:16:10 <FLHerne> Thus having vehicles support them with custom graphics is essential
19:16:11 <snail_UES_> you have many cool cargos in FIRS, but if no trainset can handle them properly (with the correct graphics, the right wagons etc) then what’s the point?
19:16:21 <andythenorth> I don't understand the question
19:16:38 <FLHerne> [there is One True Way To Play]
19:16:47 <andythenorth> the point is to have more cargos
19:17:05 <frosch123> snail_UES_: isn't the opposite "never add a new cargo that no vehicle set yet supports" just as sily?
19:17:22 <snail_UES_> frosch123: yes, agree. There should be a balance
19:17:39 <andythenorth> I mean nobody noticed that FIRS has destroyed the 'balance' for passenger vehicles for the last 10 years
19:17:50 <snail_UES_> but Andy just told us that no one will ever be able to keep up… :p
19:17:55 <andythenorth> vehicle set lolz
19:18:36 <frosch123> andythenorth: weird, because they noticed that ottd destroyed purchase/running costs immediately :p
19:20:26 <andythenorth> snail_UES_ I'm not sure if I can add many more cargos actually
19:20:34 <andythenorth> I'm running out of 2-letter abbreviations for them
19:20:40 <andythenorth> which are used...somewhere in OpenTTD
19:20:42 <andythenorth> that I never see
19:21:04 <TrueBrain> LordAro: GitHub says you changed the title .. but they are identical?
19:22:49 <LordAro> TrueBrain: trailing space :p
19:22:59 <snail_UES_> you need a 2-letter abbreviation for a cargo type? I didn’t know
19:23:00 <LordAro> i noticed it in the dorpsgek messages :p
19:23:16 <TrueBrain> and I was thinking my OCD was bad :D
19:23:25 <snail_UES_> if you tell me you might not add more for the “foreseeable future” :p I’ll update my trainset to support the new ones
19:23:53 <andythenorth> I have quite a lot to test
19:24:05 <snail_UES_> some of them are just variations… turns out I already drew steel beams, sheets, and cables as random variants of “steel” cargo
19:24:43 <snail_UES_> so I’ll just have to code each of them as STSE, STSH, and STWR cargo types
19:24:48 <andythenorth> if I do the chemicals economy, they are all tank cars
19:24:58 <andythenorth> but I might not do it, because it would all be tank cars
19:25:03 <snail_UES_> all tanks, but different colors, right?
19:25:09 <andythenorth> or I could do a new PIPE grf
19:25:10 <snail_UES_> and different types of tanks...
19:39:06 <TrueBrain> lol, I got Steam Awards for replying on that "why bother?!" post :P
19:39:21 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC ()
19:45:48 <glx> <snail_UES_> maybe my mind is too complicated? <-- seems as complicated as andythenorth's (you heard about his loop unrolling ? )
19:46:12 <snail_UES_> his loop unrolling?
19:46:17 <andythenorth> that's not complicated :)
19:46:27 <andythenorth> I just wrote my own vars because OpenTTD doesn't provide
19:46:45 <andythenorth> "it's just a recursion"
19:46:50 <andythenorth> oh I've been around Eddi|zuHause too long :)
19:47:12 <andythenorth> I even suggest state machines as solutions for things at work
19:47:12 <FLHerne> snail_UES_: Have you seen FIRS' generated nml source recently? If not, be sure not to
19:47:25 <andythenorth> FIRS source is fine
19:47:30 <andythenorth> it's Iron Horse that's mad
19:47:42 <andythenorth> FIRS is small and mostly not mad
19:47:51 <andythenorth> still very slow to compile but eh
19:48:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling i'm way too nice... :p
19:48:13 <andythenorth> m4nfo is instant compile?
19:48:25 <snail_UES_> m4nfo compiles in a few seconds
19:48:38 <snail_UES_> and it depends on which part of the set you’re working on...
19:48:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm fairly sure you'll manage to not-instance it
19:49:12 <snail_UES_> like, if I make a change in a specific vehicle, I only recompile that specific part of the code, and it takes like 2-3 seconds
19:49:39 <glx> as said, very hidden info
19:49:59 <andythenorth> yeah m4nfo is much faster
19:50:22 <snail_UES_> the recoloring tables are a pain in the butt, but that’s because I set them up before sprite stacking was avaialble. I’ve got $1A7F of them
19:50:46 <andythenorth> you did generate them from code?
19:50:47 <frosch123> is that a number or a censored curse word? :p
19:50:50 <andythenorth> not manually written?
19:51:18 <snail_UES_> sometimes I write hex the Commodore 64 way (with a “$”) :p
19:51:40 <andythenorth> oh wait m4nfo is only faster for trains
19:51:50 <andythenorth> I remember why I didn't switch
19:52:00 <snail_UES_> andythenorth: nope, I generated them though Ctrl-C + Ctrl-V, and Ctrl-F :D
19:52:48 <snail_UES_> yeah, prior to sprite stacking it was a pain.
19:53:10 <snail_UES_> Now I’ll be able to disentangle lights, wagon color, and cargo color
19:53:14 <andythenorth> 6783 recolour tables?
19:53:38 <snail_UES_> something like that. They include 4 different states of “age / dirt” condition, plus 8 states for the lights
19:53:44 *** Speedy` has joined #openttd
19:53:55 <snail_UES_> so basically I’ve got 32 tables for each combination of colors
19:54:21 <snail_UES_> I wish sprite stacking had been there much earlier :)
19:54:46 <frosch123> isn't it like 4 years old?
19:54:48 <andythenorth> why is everything about newgrf so mad?
19:54:57 <andythenorth> do other games have such modding frameworks?
19:55:05 <snail_UES_> frosch123: yes, but I started my set much earlier
19:55:15 <frosch123> andythenorth: i think the problem are "train people" :p
19:55:25 <snail_UES_> I’m going to do the standard gauge using that, so I’ll have much fewer recoloring tables
19:55:26 <glx> answer is easy andythenorth, it was added with ttdpatch
19:55:39 <andythenorth> frosch123 train people did invent computer games, so it's full circle
19:55:39 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Minecraft is just as bad
19:55:40 <glx> so of course it uses the hacky solution
19:56:42 <andythenorth> hmm can we analyse newgrfs on Friday
19:56:58 <andythenorth> I'm interested in the complexity of train grfs vs. other grfs
19:57:07 <andythenorth> can we do the call graph or something?
19:57:12 <frosch123> i still want to do the "guess the graph" game
19:57:20 <frosch123> still haven't dont it :p
19:58:57 <frosch123> andythenorth: cool, that features an andy, a tyler, a matt and a chris :)
19:59:38 <snail_UES_> well, most “train people” are rivet counters. And rivet counters are very complicated people to deal with
19:59:39 <andythenorth> we could show code samples and guess who wrote it
19:59:47 <snail_UES_> so they will love complicated solutions for anything...
19:59:58 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd
20:00:12 <andythenorth> oh we have a game show in the UK based on different people trying to lie and not get caught
20:00:27 * andythenorth can't remember detail
20:00:36 <andythenorth> but we could all pretend a piece of code isn't ours
20:00:41 <andythenorth> but it belongs to one of us
20:00:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: you mean: someone explains something weird about newgrf, and the other have to judge whether that is true?
20:01:11 <LordAro> all your code are belong to us?
20:01:50 <andythenorth> there's a radio game where you have to narrate a subject for a minute or two, and include 3 lies
20:01:53 <frosch123> firs said: all your cargoslots are belong to us
20:01:56 <andythenorth> without the other players spotting the lies
20:07:41 <LordAro> needs more Just a Minute
20:16:04 <andythenorth> talk for 1 minute about nfo
20:16:15 <andythenorth> without deviation, hesitation, or repetition
20:16:25 <frosch123> talk for 1 minute in nfo
20:16:57 *** jottyfan has quit IRC (Quit: jottyfan)
20:17:07 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd
20:18:20 <frosch123> ooh... idea: wikis have that useless "random page" link
20:18:36 <frosch123> click it, and explain the content :p
20:18:59 <glx> and notice how it's wrong ?
20:19:05 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd
20:19:20 <frosch123> the wiki content, or the explanation?
20:19:31 <glx> the content (probably outdated)
20:19:47 <frosch123> the newgrf wiki is not that bad
20:20:10 <glx> ah yes old not really changing stuff
20:20:11 <frosch123> ottd wiki no longer has that button, TrueBrain said it's useless
20:20:38 <glx> so I agree newgrf wiki should be quite correct
20:20:50 <andythenorth> newgrf wiki is really quite good
20:21:01 <andythenorth> it's very rarely the most annoying thing about authoring newgrfs :)
20:25:55 <glx> good luck with varact2 pages ;)
20:26:59 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] matthew57778 opened issue #8915: Tunnel crash when placing bridge on top going same direction https://git.io/JY0xb
20:28:13 <glx> hmm I'd say probably already fixed
20:28:44 <frosch123> doesn't work for rail
20:30:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] matthew57778 commented on issue #8915: Tunnel crash when placing bridge on top going same direction https://git.io/JY0xb
20:30:16 *** y2kboy23_ has joined #openttd
20:31:03 <frosch123> oh, that's not how i tried
20:31:35 <glx> yeah I would have tried as you did, from entrance to exit
20:32:46 *** y2kboy23 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
20:33:23 <frosch123> works in master, let's compile 1.10.3
20:34:18 <frosch123> 1.10.3 also works for me
20:35:29 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8915: Tunnel crash when placing bridge on top going same direction https://git.io/JY0xb
20:38:59 <LordAro> james is also on windows, iirc
20:39:15 <frosch123> but not on 1.10.3 apparently
20:39:18 <glx> yes but I don't think he tried to reproduce
20:39:51 <LordAro> "since it does not crash for me on Windows 10 and OpenTTD f9d24ff"
20:40:39 <glx> yes on master it doesn't crash (I tried)
20:40:58 <glx> but I want to check if it does in 1.10.3
20:41:40 <LordAro> could theoretically be release-build only?
20:42:06 <glx> possible but first I'll try debug build
20:43:31 <glx> maybe an optimisation "error", but symptom seems to be infinite loop
20:49:08 <frosch123> then you would have to try the official binary
20:49:15 <frosch123> so you have the exact compiler match
20:49:33 *** nielsm has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
20:52:49 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
20:53:11 <frosch123> anyway, no report from valgrind here. no suspicious looking code, so i blame user error :)
20:53:43 <glx> tried official build, no issue
20:56:30 *** Samu has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
21:03:05 <glx> maybe I could try 32bit version too
21:04:05 <frosch123> it's probably caused by firs :p
21:04:32 <frosch123> oh shoot. did you see the rail toolbar
21:04:46 <frosch123> it's one of these freaking citybuilder clients, that pretends to be 1.10.3
21:05:04 <glx> oh but I indeed tried 32bit (default debug build when opening the project)
21:07:05 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on issue #8915: Tunnel crash when placing bridge on top going same direction https://git.io/JY0xb
21:07:08 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 closed issue #8915: Tunnel crash when placing bridge on top going same direction https://git.io/JY0xb
21:10:20 <_dp_> yeah, I can repro it on cmclient but not vanilla
21:10:40 <LordAro> bad citybuilder client
21:13:34 <frosch123> do you also have that weird selective-demolish tool?
21:14:57 <_dp_> you mean treedozer? it's relatively useful :p
21:27:46 <andythenorth> boring economy anyway :P
21:46:54 *** Progman has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
21:48:55 <frosch123> oh, you changed the arrows again :)
21:52:44 *** andythenorth has quit IRC (Quit: andythenorth)
21:53:02 *** frosch123 has quit IRC (Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn)
22:06:02 *** gelignite has quit IRC (Quit: Stay safe!)
22:13:40 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on issue #8915: Tunnel crash when placing bridge on top going same direction https://git.io/JY0xb
22:23:12 <supermop_Home_> got an appointment scheduled
22:37:46 <snail_UES_> supermop_Home_: wow! lucky you :)
22:37:53 <snail_UES_> which website did you use to schedule it?
22:42:02 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd
22:51:31 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC (Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.)
23:46:19 *** FLHerne has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
23:49:16 <LordAro> Wuzzy: i aven't updated it yet
23:49:22 <LordAro> so yes, it's intentional in that regard
23:49:29 <Wuzzy> oh, so BaNaNaS is manual?
23:50:03 <Wuzzy> but ok, thanks for noticing
continue to next day ⏵
