IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-11-06
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15:25:21 <andythenorth> adding 1 engine to Horse
15:25:28 <andythenorth> 2.9.2 release, or 2.10.0?
15:26:23 <andythenorth> no gameplay differnce
15:26:28 <andythenorth> just visual variety
15:32:50 <andythenorth> hadn't considered it so far :D
15:45:25 <andythenorth> funny version number :P
15:47:08 <frosch123> did you consider adoping V's version schema
15:47:44 <frosch123> it may completely defeat the point of version numbers, but it requires very little decisions
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15:54:46 <andythenorth> is it just random numbers?
16:12:57 <andythenorth> must remember to invalidate cloudfront
17:14:43 * FLHerne was looking forward to the boats, personally
17:15:33 <FLHerne> But I know some people would like it
17:16:01 <FLHerne> NARS is too much at the hyper-detail > gameplay end
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17:33:16 <andythenorth> I have been using more colours
17:33:34 <andythenorth> I was trying a strict minimal colour palette, like I use for trains
17:33:47 <andythenorth> but ships are too big for that, they look unfinished
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17:48:59 <andythenorth> wine / water / etc
17:56:19 <Timberwolf> Problem I found with NARS games is the only locomotives you ever need to buy is however many generations of 4-4-0 American it takes to get to the 80mph one, and then the GG1 when it comes out.
17:57:07 <Timberwolf> Not something you can really solve without having "unrealistic" specs.
17:59:46 <andythenorth> Timberwolf that 'one loco is always boss' thing was what drove Iron Horse v1 to be minimalist
17:59:52 <Timberwolf> Well, I guess if you had an industry/cargo set that had higher production values, lower cargo payments, and slower decay of payment.
18:00:11 <andythenorth> I think there was always one diesel that was OP, the GP38 or GP40
18:00:20 <andythenorth> everything else was pointless
18:02:29 <andythenorth> hmm, Horse does not feature sausage vans
18:07:28 <Timberwolf> Perhaps we ask too much from a game where the default graphics set gives optimal consists of double-headed A4s for a coal train.
18:07:36 <Timberwolf> (or of course the ubiquitous coal TGV)
18:20:33 <andythenorth> I can see the lucidity of your argument
18:20:42 <andythenorth> but our train grfs suggest we don't buy it :P
18:43:19 <FLHerne> andythenorth: White hull is more common on chemical tankers, stops the cargo boiling off :p
18:44:15 <FLHerne> Timberwolf: Double-headed *tenderless* A4s
18:44:23 <andythenorth> I'm not sure about maintaining consistency for ships with Horse and Hog
18:44:31 <FLHerne> I guess they just shovel coal from the cargo
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18:44:42 <andythenorth> I thought it would be a neat and tidy idea if ships were just like big Horse trains
18:44:54 <andythenorth> same classes, same visual appearance rules
18:45:02 <andythenorth> so open wagon -> freighter
18:45:16 <andythenorth> mineral wagon -> bulk barge
18:45:28 <andythenorth> goods van -> dry cargo ship
18:45:37 <andythenorth> and then same company colours and liveries
18:45:50 <FLHerne> I think that makes sense to some extent
18:45:52 <andythenorth> but it just doesn't 100% work
18:45:57 <andythenorth> it's probably 60:40
18:46:08 <andythenorth> I think it needs to be 'sometimes aligns'
18:46:22 <FLHerne> Also, it would be nice if ships had an integer number of wagon capacities
18:46:28 <andythenorth> yeah I have wondered
18:46:32 <andythenorth> but the generations don't line up
18:46:35 <FLHerne> It's always annoying when you have a transfer and it doesn't quite work
18:46:49 <andythenorth> but trains progress faster
18:46:55 <andythenorth> [or more frequently]
18:47:12 * andythenorth would settle for a load x% order :P
18:47:13 <FLHerne> That sounds like a 'not enough ships' problem :p
18:47:23 <andythenorth> but apparently load x% is not really possible
18:47:33 <andythenorth> other than in JGR
18:48:04 <andythenorth> I think also Hog and Horse will diverge, when I do Hog 2.0
18:48:16 <andythenorth> because of the HEQS-type stuff I'm adding
18:48:30 <andythenorth> 'off road mining truck' just doesn't have a train equivalent
18:48:56 <andythenorth> well, maybe side dump cars, but they look wildly different :P
18:49:23 <FLHerne> Not convinced that kind of visual consistency makes sense
18:49:41 <FLHerne> Make the same cargo look the same, sure
18:49:46 <andythenorth> I think it's a slavish consistency
18:50:00 <FLHerne> But making all vehicles that carry the same cargo category look similar is just boring
18:50:12 <andythenorth> the inspiration is original base set
18:50:20 <FLHerne> It's one thing I don't love about Road Hog
18:50:23 <andythenorth> where RVs just have rail wagons glued on the back
18:50:50 <andythenorth> I am not currently inspired by RVs
18:51:08 <andythenorth> Hog, the main inspiration was "the only non-shit RV grf is eGRVTs"
18:51:13 <andythenorth> and I played eGRVTS to death
18:51:36 <andythenorth> explain your view on Hog more?
18:51:41 <andythenorth> might be useful for designing
18:51:51 <FLHerne> Bob's British Vehicles is mostly nice
18:51:52 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:52:00 <FLHerne> But it has a couple of awkward gaps, and doesn't do autorefit
18:52:52 <FLHerne> I like Hog for gameplay a lot
18:53:15 <FLHerne> The one thing I miss is early non-articulated vehicles with reasonable capacity
18:53:21 <FLHerne> (because I like dead-end stops)
18:53:26 <andythenorth> what about later game?
18:53:45 <FLHerne> Visually, I tend to end up with loads of vehicles of one generation at a time
18:53:47 <andythenorth> 8x4 rigid trucks could carry quite a bit
18:54:08 <FLHerne> They're obviously all the same one with different bodies, and it looks dull
18:54:37 <FLHerne> BBV has an 8x4 Mammoth Major, it's probably my most-used RV ever
18:55:35 <FLHerne> Currently I tend to use both BBV and Hog together
18:55:45 <FLHerne> So that I can use Hog vehicles to fill in the gaps
18:55:57 <FLHerne> (this was why I wanted a 'no Hog buses' option)
18:56:40 <FLHerne> Well, 'currently' -- I've not actually played OTTD in months now :p
18:59:06 * andythenorth considers randomised appearance
18:59:26 <andythenorth> I have shared order groups in my game with 40-50 identical RVs
18:59:39 <andythenorth> Horse randomises wagon appearance between 2 variants
19:07:46 <longtomjr> Polroad is alo a nice rv set
19:09:09 <andythenorth> randomised ships? :P
19:09:21 <andythenorth> also...2CC is a problem with ships
19:09:34 <andythenorth> I pretty much always use white as 2CC, for train reasons
19:09:49 <andythenorth> but that doesn't show up on ships
19:10:54 <andythenorth> due to ships using a lot of white :P
19:11:00 <longtomjr> White is the most colorblind friendly cc
19:12:04 <andythenorth> maybe I just use the livery UI
19:12:52 <andythenorth> not sure that all ships need 2CC
19:13:41 <andythenorth> Horse freight wagons are pretty much 1CC
19:29:44 <andythenorth> the train livery UI window is annoying
19:29:54 <andythenorth> maybe I just force Horse 2CC to white
19:32:21 <andythenorth> I could just implement company colours in the grf
19:32:30 <andythenorth> maybe that would be best
19:39:43 <andythenorth> oof now I have to try it :P
19:47:48 <andythenorth> can't show company colour in Action 14 lists :D
19:53:02 <Timberwolf> BBV's Mammoth Major was the inspiration for Timberwolf's Road Vehicles.
19:53:27 <Timberwolf> Specifically, that 40 year stretch where it's the only one you use.
19:54:17 <Timberwolf> It was originally supposed to be a little gap-filler to go alongside Bob's sets.
19:56:15 <andythenorth> what have you learnt from TRV?
19:56:22 <andythenorth> what would you keep / do differently?
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19:59:01 <TrueBrain> nice progress there frosch123 :) Found any errors in truewiki?
19:59:32 <andythenorth> oof if I add a parameter for company colours
19:59:38 <andythenorth> the names will be e.g. 'pink'
19:59:45 <andythenorth> but there are company-colour changing grfs
19:59:50 <frosch123> TrueBrain: only mediawiki insanity
20:00:33 <andythenorth> oh the company colour grfs don't change the names anyway
20:04:10 <TrueBrain> frosch123: results are looking good :) Cannot believe how many deadlinks we have on our wiki :D
20:05:39 * andythenorth is a big fan of linkcheckers
20:05:58 <TrueBrain> they do not; as a page that does not exist in wiki simply means a page that is not created yet :P
20:06:31 <frosch123> well, all the translations :)
20:09:10 <andythenorth> oof action 14 caching :D
20:09:16 <andythenorth> much restarting of openttd
20:09:50 * andythenorth is adding player control over 'random' wagon choices
20:09:59 <andythenorth> but I am seriously considering a 'rainbow' option
20:11:35 <andythenorth> I rage quit tanks yesterday
20:11:51 <andythenorth> red teams all just stacked, 70% players vs 40% on my team
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20:35:20 <Wolf01> Nice, I unearthed a kv1
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20:42:09 <andythenorth> what from a lake?
20:42:14 <andythenorth> like that Youtube video?
20:42:40 <Wolf01> No, it was in the middle of a field
20:43:39 <andythenorth> what game is it?
20:47:42 <Wolf01> Too bad is only de-rust, sand, primer, paint... you don't even need to take apart the tank
20:48:11 <Wolf01> I would have liked more if there were broken parts which you needed to remove and replace
20:50:01 <andythenorth> do you get to use an AVRE
20:50:05 <andythenorth> is it like spin tires?
20:50:31 <andythenorth> omg there's a mac version
20:50:37 <Wolf01> Don't know, I didn't play spin tires
20:51:21 <andythenorth> me neither, but I watched a lot of videos
21:00:16 <Timberwolf> andythenorth: "Don't try to please everyone by adding a parameter for their particular use case" would be a big (if slightly sad and mean) one.
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21:01:55 <andythenorth> still favouring rainbow
21:02:29 <andythenorth> April 1 edition of Horse
21:04:35 <Timberwolf> I think a lot of it was standard newbie stuff, like the later models being a lot better than the earlier ones, failing at relative scale, janky offsets, all of that stuff you fail to pay attention to when someone who knows what they're doing tells you what to consider :)
21:06:24 <andythenorth> what about the vehicle tech tree?
21:06:30 * andythenorth hasn't played it (sorry)
21:06:59 <Timberwolf> Beat it into submission with quantity.
21:07:24 <Timberwolf> Actually real life UK vehicles aren't ideal for a tech tree.
21:08:32 <Timberwolf> You spend 80 years with everything being underpowered, then in the space of about 10 years you go from the first F-series Volvos arriving in the UK to Scania's ridiculous "580? Yeah, 580 sounds good."
21:08:56 <andythenorth> Hog has a bit of that
21:09:18 <andythenorth> Horse has substantially overpowered early trains to avoid that hockey stick power curve
21:09:38 <Timberwolf> The small trucks (Mercedes LK, Bedfork TK etc.) were a really nice idea, I can say it was nice because it's one of things the community suggested.
21:09:52 <andythenorth> what's the capacity?
21:10:26 <Timberwolf> About half the full-size equivalents, but they get a boost for mail so it's more like 2/3rds.
21:11:28 <andythenorth> wow many parameters :)
21:13:44 <andythenorth> the Transit Custom isn't a double cab (DCIV)
21:13:54 <andythenorth> parameter please
21:17:33 <Timberwolf> "Van wheelbases" is the ideal parameter, what I need is yet another variable to interact with the load capacities and performance.
21:19:47 <andythenorth> well you also need roof height
21:19:52 <andythenorth> mine is low-roof
21:20:10 <andythenorth> but that affects cube capacity, not maximum GVW
21:20:16 <andythenorth> and it affects aerodynamics
21:20:27 <andythenorth> swb vs lwb should affect curve speed
21:20:41 <andythenorth> maybe I make my own transit van grf
21:20:45 <andythenorth> featuring my own van
21:20:59 <FLHerne> What you're missing is a Defender 110 with a hydraulic tipper body and a small crane
21:21:18 <FLHerne> No, my uncle does though :p
21:21:22 <andythenorth> or you're thinking of the National Grid ones with fat tyres?
21:21:32 <FLHerne> Which would be, like, two pixels
21:21:34 <andythenorth> there's a fat-tyred Transit as well that national grid use
21:22:08 <FLHerne> I wonder if you could do a whole peloton of cyclists as a vehicle?
21:22:23 <FLHerne> With animations for them jockeying about
21:22:41 <andythenorth> we have seagull objects
21:22:54 <FLHerne> I know, I've built loads of those :p
21:23:00 <andythenorth> if there was a red traffic light though, 50% would go through it
21:23:02 <andythenorth> and 50% would not
21:23:06 <Timberwolf> Do it as the London hire bikes, then the "empty" state can be one of those flatbed vehicles with a rack of bikes in the back.
21:23:21 <FLHerne> Traffic lights are bloody annoying on a bike
21:24:13 <andythenorth> I know, I wait at them a lot
21:24:17 <andythenorth> thinking time eh
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21:24:20 <FLHerne> Half the time there's definitely no reason to stop
21:24:26 * FLHerne generally abides by them
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21:25:16 <Timberwolf> The most annoying are segregated cycle lane lights where if you were on the road you'd have a green, but your bike lane has a red because cars can make a left/right turn across it.
21:25:45 <andythenorth> hmm how do recolour sprites work
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21:28:01 <andythenorth> I have no idea what I'm doing :P
21:28:38 <FLHerne> I still have 11k unread emails, but at least now I know what I'm not reading :p
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21:34:57 <andythenorth> if "return base_sprite_2cc + 16 * company_colour2 + company_colour1" gives me regular 1CC and 2CC
21:35:19 <andythenorth> how do I get 1cc translated to e.g. COLOUR_DARK_BLUE
21:36:15 <frosch123> you just replace "company_colour1" with "COLOUR_DARK_BLUE"
21:36:51 <frosch123> you can also replace the whole thing with palette_2cc(company_colour2, COLOUR_DARK_BLUE)
21:36:59 <frosch123> instead of the custom + *
21:37:36 <andythenorth> so just return that palette? No base_sprite_2cc?
21:37:53 <frosch123> palette_2cc contains base_sprite_2cc
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21:47:43 <andythenorth> oof I have some silly typo bug in my action 14
21:47:47 <andythenorth> testing it is so annoying :D
21:47:52 <andythenorth> openttd is so slow to start
22:21:28 <andythenorth> is nml parameterised switches merged? :P
23:04:31 <Eddi|zuHause> parameterised switches? you mean procedures?
23:13:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i wanted to use procedures for something in CETS, but i completely forgot everything about it
23:14:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it was the capacity switches
23:15:03 <andythenorth> procedures with parameters are really helpful
23:15:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i wanted to teach procedures to nml twice, but got stuck both times
23:15:32 <andythenorth> faster compile, reduced file size, and often simpler code
23:15:45 <andythenorth> or at least, the complexity is distributed better :P
23:37:17 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech opened issue #8336: [Game play] Vehicle disasters should always be banner headlines. https://git.io/JTjuk
23:44:13 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8336: [Game play] Vehicle disasters should always be banner headlines. https://git.io/JTjuk
23:44:34 <FLHerne> What a strange bug report
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