IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-11-05
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06:09:02 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Montandalar commented on issue #7831: Crash on placing vehicle in group that used to contain 1 vehicle https://git.io/JerJc
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10:09:03 <SpComb> a bus disguised as a tram
10:12:28 <reldred> shhhh, let that bus be all that it can be
10:30:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure we discussed these before
10:30:56 <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm pretty sure we concluded that these lines on the road fail as soon as there's dirt, snow, or heavy usage
10:50:06 <andythenorth> can we delete inflation?
10:50:15 <andythenorth> we could do it on 1 of 2 grounds
10:50:27 <andythenorth> 1) it doesn't work, and causes newgrf bug reports
10:50:29 <andythenorth> 2) it's unrealistic
10:51:29 <LordAro> i wouldn't be opposed to disabling it by default
11:08:08 <andythenorth> mostly I draw vehicles that are mostly symmetric along the long axis
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11:31:45 <longtomjr> andythenorth, are those cranes for loading?
11:34:54 <longtomjr> Those pipes on the side of the hull is interesting, that is probably too small for ttd scale?
11:54:37 <andythenorth> the welded ribs on the hull?
11:55:21 <andythenorth> I tend to stick a few highlight / shadow pixels in to give the impression that surfaces aren't flat
11:55:31 <andythenorth> trying to actually draw them won't work, scale issues
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12:07:34 <dot_Sp0T> Hello, anybody round?
12:09:34 <dot_Sp0T> That is a shame.... Anyway in case anybody happens by and reads this: I was hoping to find some help in regards to working with the OpenTTD sources. But I seemingly cannot write any messages in the dev channel
12:13:59 <longtomjr> If you have questions, feel free to ask here. Someone might see your message and be able to help.
12:15:46 <DorpsGek> LordAro: Don't ask to ask, just ask
12:19:16 <dot_Sp0T> It seems most of the openttd codebase is in C++ so I was looking around for what tools are recommended/necessary to work with the codebase (have just found the Development Wiki after some more searching, so scouring that right now...). In the meantime: Is there any currently recommended way to go about writing a mod/patch for the game?
12:23:30 <dot_Sp0T> The simplest way I see right now is forking the base-repo and branching off that. From there I wonder if there's any process in place commonly used that is different from somehow just filtering out modified files and / or 'simply' recompiling and installing the modded game
12:40:08 <LordAro> that's basically it, yeah
12:40:22 <LordAro> don't need to "install" it, just run it from the resulting folder
12:40:53 <dot_Sp0T> was hoping there might be some sort of process, especially considering interaction of mods and downloadsizes
12:41:32 <LordAro> i'm not sure what else you were expecting
12:41:50 <LordAro> (also, just standard C++ development environment for working with the codebase, every developer has their own preferences)
12:41:53 <longtomjr> Patches and mods are 2 different things. You can write scripts and graphics to change the game in certain aspects, without having to patch the source code.
12:42:52 <longtomjr> that is "mods" though. In openttd land we have newGrfs: Add more vehicles, rails, industries, objects etc.
12:42:53 <dot_Sp0T> but that only allows touching aspects of the game that are already designed to be modified/extended
12:43:12 <LordAro> newgrf development is very different to OTTD development
12:43:20 <longtomjr> Then there is gamescripts as well, that can add some goal oriented layer on top of the game.
12:44:30 <longtomjr> Gamescripts and Newgrfs are both developed in different ways, and can be distributed with the ingame content downloader.
12:46:22 <longtomjr> Mods in any game only allows touching aspects of the game that were designed to be modded and extended. With openttd being open source, you can however extend the game beyond that by creating a patched version of the game.
12:47:26 <longtomjr> This seems pretty normal to me, so like LordAro said, what did you expect this process to look like?
13:01:41 <dot_Sp0T> I was not expecting anything, I was merely hoping there might be something :)
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13:07:08 <andythenorth> it's not official, it's not comprehensive
13:07:22 <andythenorth> I did tidy it up last year and removed junk, but eh
13:07:45 <andythenorth> it's community contributed so it is what it is
13:08:44 <dot_Sp0T> the wiki is very nice, once i find pages :))
13:09:54 <dot_Sp0T> am currently going through all that, but trying to respond in here in parallel once somebody writes something (don't wanna seem ungrateful)
13:11:58 <dot_Sp0T> sparse but efficient, right now i'm just trying to find my way around cmake, as in the past i have never had to use it
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13:27:56 <TrueBrain> damn, frosch really has been busy with the export ... things are now nice and lovely in separate folders .. it is really nice
13:28:00 <TrueBrain> let me get this to staging in a bit :D
13:48:21 <TrueBrain> hmmm .. having folders in categories does show the problem of having the same category-name in different folders
13:48:25 <TrueBrain> that might be somewhat confusing I guess
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14:11:40 <dot_Sp0T> well that took me way too long to find the issue i am having. Is any dev here that works on windows and perchance not with visualstudio?
14:13:45 <DorpsGek> LordAro: Don't ask to ask, just ask
14:15:52 <dot_Sp0T> that's lit what i did
14:16:30 <LordAro> don't ask if there's anyone around to ask your question to either
14:16:37 <LordAro> just ask your damn question
14:20:13 <TrueBrain> breath LordAro , breath!
14:20:23 <TrueBrain> well, you get what I mean :P
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14:23:32 <dot_Sp0T> Sorry, had to restart to get powershell to behave. probably missed your last msgs
14:24:32 <TrueBrain> it felt like a ragequit :P
14:24:52 <TrueBrain> but seriously dot_Sp0T , in these communities, like most open source, just tell what you are doing and what you are seeking help with
14:24:57 <longtomjr> having to restart bc powershell might be rage inducing
14:25:05 <TrueBrain> don't try to connect with someone first, to ask the question .. it makes for very very slow conversations :)
14:25:25 <TrueBrain> it sounds a bit rude, it really isn't :)
14:25:45 <TrueBrain> dev-expertise is all over the place, so finding "a dev" is not going to help you :) Asking what you have issues with, most of the time will ;)
14:26:09 <TrueBrain> longtomjr: fair point, honestly :P
14:26:13 <longtomjr> sometimes they even email you to offer you a deal on building a mobile app. these dev
14:26:42 <TrueBrain> ......... longtomjr stop reminding me :P
14:27:24 <longtomjr> Why, is the offer starting to seem more and more appealing?
14:27:35 <TrueBrain> ONLY IF WE ALL START TALKING LIKE THIS
14:28:14 <dot_Sp0T> anyway it's mostly what i implied but not stated explecitile: DId you get the buildprocess to run on windows without using visual studio, and if yes, how? (I am in the process of slogging through the cmake doku to understand what the lists file tells me and to config env vars accordingly)
14:28:39 <TrueBrain> if not using VS, what are you using?
14:29:19 <dot_Sp0T> in my case CEVELOP which is built on top of eclipse CDT. But i could be using anything to edit the files and then run a compiler/debugger per command line for all i care
14:29:36 <LordAro> cmake does have a workable gui
14:30:14 <TrueBrain> never heard of CEVELOP, no clue if there is CMake support for that :D You are exploring new territoria :D
14:30:49 <TrueBrain> not a promising answer ...
14:31:05 <LordAro> not a great one, but presumably workable
14:31:07 <TrueBrain> well, the second step is pretty solid
14:31:19 <longtomjr> What are you using to build on pipelines?
14:31:19 <dot_Sp0T> yeah no the answer there is a good pointer, but I figure i need to get CMAKE running first
14:31:42 <dot_Sp0T> i was hoping to only build locally^^
14:31:54 <TrueBrain> longtomjr: MSVC simply gives the best binaries, we found out over 15 years :P
14:31:55 <LordAro> work out where the cmake gui is, use that
14:32:06 <longtomjr> Nah, were asking True what openttd uses in their pipelines.
14:32:23 <TrueBrain> dot_Sp0T: honestly, most Windows people simply use MSVC
14:32:40 <TrueBrain> so you are a bit on your own here, most likely ...
14:32:53 * LordAro has no real issues with MinGW, but it wouldn't try to use it for "serious" development work
14:33:07 <TrueBrain> well, I use WSL, and cross-compile
14:33:11 <TrueBrain> but I might be a bit weird :P
14:33:12 <LordAro> mkdir build && cd build && cmake .. works just fine
14:33:20 <TrueBrain> I just love VSCode, and I love WSL2 :)
14:33:35 <LordAro> TrueBrain: just a bit weird
14:33:45 <longtomjr> TrueBrain is windows your daily driver?
14:34:16 <TrueBrain> "daily driver"? Sorry, I don't know that slang, what do you mean?
14:34:33 <longtomjr> As in the operating system you mainly use?
14:35:01 <TrueBrain> I only use Windows these days
14:35:09 <TrueBrain> but I do all coding work via WSL2
14:35:17 <TrueBrain> vscode also runs in WSL2
14:35:40 <TrueBrain> wait, you want to start an OS war? :D
14:35:47 <longtomjr> No, mostly just joking
14:36:02 <TrueBrain> I used all OSes ... in the end, they are all the same
14:36:12 <TrueBrain> I like MacOS because it means it "just works", 99% of the time
14:36:24 <TrueBrain> I like Windows because games "just work", 99% of the time
14:36:30 <TrueBrain> I like Linux, because FUCK OFF I CAN DO THIS MYSELF
14:36:58 <TrueBrain> but WSL2 + Windows is a really strong platform to work with
14:37:11 <TrueBrain> today I was in a store where they had installed xfce as desktop for the employees
14:37:17 <TrueBrain> HILARIOUS when she opened up Firefox
14:37:23 <TrueBrain> guess they have Raspberries :P
14:37:49 <TrueBrain> Proton is nice, Stadia is nicerrrrrrr
14:38:11 <longtomjr> Yep, I used WSL as well when working mostly in C#, installed it on the company machine, got a visit from the secops guys...
14:38:25 <longtomjr> Something something cpu code injection something something
14:38:33 <TrueBrain> well, if you run WSL, you might as well be local administrator, honestly
14:38:51 <TrueBrain> good for them they detected it, but why could you install it in the first place? :D
14:39:00 <longtomjr> They gave up, so all the coders were local admins.
14:39:43 <longtomjr> Otherwise they would non stop be getting requests like, "I need emacs for note taking", "new vs version is out", "I want my screensaver to be a cute puppy" etc.
14:39:57 <TrueBrain> yeah ... putting developers in their own vlan is a very smart thing to do .. and give them very limited network access :D
14:40:20 <longtomjr> They gave us access to the guest network, otherwise we will not be able to download vs code
14:40:33 <TrueBrain> I gave a lot of training in companies, for security-related stuff .. developers were the most fun :)
14:40:41 <longtomjr> We are a terrible bunch
14:40:52 <TrueBrain> mostly, I love "hacking" into developers laptops
14:40:58 <TrueBrain> it is .. like ... really quick
14:41:13 <TrueBrain> as there is always this one person that has a Tomcat or what-ever outdated running on a weird port
14:41:24 <TrueBrain> like .. "yes, now it is hidden"
14:41:51 <TrueBrain> and always with passwords that are .. euh ... well, simple? :D
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14:42:39 <longtomjr> TrueBrain, hmm, did not know I belonged to a demographic with bad password discipline
14:43:05 <TrueBrain> local setups always run the most simplest of passwords
14:43:13 <TrueBrain> I have that myself even ... and I should know better :P
14:43:30 <TrueBrain> or a local database
14:43:37 <TrueBrain> they often have logins like root/root, or test/test
14:43:48 <TrueBrain> as .. which developer constantly wants to use his Password Manager to enter his local database?
14:43:53 <longtomjr> Aaah yep, but those should not be exposed to the network?
14:44:10 <TrueBrain> but often enough either firewalls are not configured
14:44:19 <longtomjr> (I might be that developer, religously use my password manager, because I can forget root/root)
14:44:28 <TrueBrain> or, my favorite: I just exposed it for a few minutes to my colleague could see what I was doing
14:44:42 <longtomjr> That is like only running around naked for 5 minutes
14:44:59 <longtomjr> you are still running around naked in public
14:45:00 <TrueBrain> and, as it goes: out of the 10 developers, only 1 needs to have this attitude :)
14:45:42 <longtomjr> Yep. Turns out developers know enough to be a security threat, but not enough to mitigate it.
14:46:07 <TrueBrain> I have been in the cybersecurity field for over 5 years now, and I still make those mistakes .. it is VERY difficult to keep track of that all constantly
14:46:14 <longtomjr> Something something a little bit of knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge
14:46:49 <longtomjr> I think it is easier to make those mistakes on your local setup, somehow you feel less is at stake
14:48:04 <TrueBrain> and often: I will do this quickly and clean up after
14:48:17 <TrueBrain> I once put my Docker on a TCP socket, as I needed to connect to it remotely
14:48:26 <TrueBrain> within 3 days it had coinminers running
14:49:04 <TrueBrain> it happens; simple as that
14:49:43 <longtomjr> Luckily it were just docker
14:49:52 <longtomjr> or did it have filesystem permissions?
14:50:10 <TrueBrain> Docker API access == root access
14:50:13 <TrueBrain> nothing you can do about that
14:50:27 <TrueBrain> for me, in this case, I am the type of person that isolates EVERYTHING
14:50:33 <TrueBrain> so the Docker host was... just a Docker host
14:50:36 <TrueBrain> with only images it pulled
14:50:42 <TrueBrain> but .. it is a mistake easily made
14:51:16 <dot_Sp0T> anyway, gotta fiddle with it some more another day. thanks for all the help!!!!
14:53:58 <TrueBrain> lets see how long it takes to get this to staging :)
14:54:04 <longtomjr> I were still reviewing :P
14:54:22 <TrueBrain> good for you :D Let me know if you find anything wrong :)
14:54:40 <longtomjr> I think I will probably not find anything, but I will learn a bit
14:54:58 <TrueBrain> pretty sure there are mistakes somewhere hiding in there, but as it goes .. after a while you go blind on these things :)
14:55:04 <TrueBrain> downside of your own code, honestly
14:55:27 <longtomjr> Yep, best to outsource it to a company when you want to develop apps. Then you don't have to deal with your own code ;)
14:56:05 <TrueBrain> "Python overtakes Java to become the second-most popular programming language" <- what a silly headline
14:56:25 <longtomjr> There is a lot to unpack there
14:56:32 <TrueBrain> it reads like: gratz, you are still failing
14:59:45 <longtomjr> Let me know what the warm up time is
15:06:59 <TrueBrain> I like it tells you when a page is on another language than you are on now
15:09:19 <TrueBrain> pretty happy with most of it now, honestly :)
15:11:27 <TrueBrain> the editing is not completely done yet, but otherwise I think the viewing part is pretty much complete ..
15:11:41 <TrueBrain> well, yes, the export needs some fixing, but .. that is just a matter of doing, more than anything else
15:25:49 <TrueBrain> let me know if you find any non-content related bugs pretty please (in the view part)
15:40:55 <andythenorth> TrueBrain 96% of the time
16:02:29 <TrueBrain> do I want to know why you are throwing percentages at me andythenorth ? :D
16:02:47 <andythenorth> was it lunch time yet?
16:28:03 <FLHerne> andythenorth: There's quite a difference between 60s/70s ships and more recent ones
16:28:29 <supermop_Home> hydrofoil bulk carriers?
16:29:29 <andythenorth> FLHerne there is if things like X-bow are included
16:29:52 <FLHerne> Also, forward control on boxships was much more common in that era
16:30:19 <andythenorth> find some 1000grt coasters and report back :D
16:30:38 <andythenorth> shortsea ships, the 1990+ ones often have things like elevating house
16:30:45 <andythenorth> and the hull is more angular
16:31:15 <FLHerne> Then the yards realized it's cheaper to use identical prefab sections
16:32:17 <FLHerne> So modern ones have have perfectly-square/flat decks for most of the length, and the bow is obviously sort of tacked on the end with the minimum length of custom steel possible
16:33:57 <FLHerne> You can go some way just by making the wheelhouse an ugly square box :p
16:34:05 <FLHerne> Maybe with bridge wings
16:35:31 <andythenorth> square off the rear hull
16:36:16 * andythenorth looks up the grt
16:36:58 <FLHerne> It's a beautiful ship
16:37:17 <FLHerne> SQUID doesn't do fast ferries currently, does it?
16:37:39 <andythenorth> I am going to bring the hydrofoils back for Sam
16:37:51 <FLHerne> Little fast river catamarans like the Thames Clippers or NYC Ferries ones would be nice
16:38:31 <FLHerne> SQUID has basically one small passenger boat with a useful capacity, which gets boring to look at
16:39:03 <andythenorth> I think for the general cargo ships, I want to keep the crane
16:39:10 <andythenorth> most coasters aren't geared now
16:39:27 <andythenorth> and those that are have hydraulic cranes offset to one side
16:39:33 <FLHerne> ACL's new conros are quite different-looking
16:39:49 <FLHerne> And surprisingly small compared to current large container ships
16:39:52 <andythenorth> like a spaceship
16:40:06 <andythenorth> it's like a vegas hotel set sail
16:40:18 <andythenorth> paint it gold, put 'Trump' down the side
16:40:41 <FLHerne> The big racks are to stop containers falling off the side
16:40:56 <FLHerne> Because the North Atlantic has famously bad weather
16:41:31 <FLHerne> Most of the big ships go much further south, out of Gibraltar or so
16:41:54 <FLHerne> But ACL's niche is relatively frequent, low-transit-time shuttles between the NE US and Northern Europe
16:42:20 <FLHerne> So they have to go straight across the Atlantic regardless of weather
16:43:36 <andythenorth> anyway, I'm quite open to 'modern' ships, but it takes 1 week to draw each ship
16:43:39 <FLHerne> Are you doing vehicle carriers? Those are distinctive
16:43:51 <andythenorth> I am probably going to do a fake small shortsea one
16:44:03 <andythenorth> there are real shortsea vehicle carriers, but they aren't interesting
16:44:13 <andythenorth> I want to squash one of the big WW type
16:44:56 <FLHerne> Don't forget the basketball court :p
16:45:29 <andythenorth> actual shortsea edition
16:46:23 <FLHerne> Oh, that's interesting, I've not seen one like that
16:46:33 <andythenorth> so many ship types :P
16:46:45 <andythenorth> designing a UK-based train set is much easier to research
16:46:50 <andythenorth> there are only so many wagon types
16:48:18 <FLHerne> Big ship, but not as big as it looks :p
16:52:05 <andythenorth> the small ferry though
16:52:14 <andythenorth> that's a candidate
16:52:17 <andythenorth> oof so many ships to draw
16:56:17 <supermop_Home> andythenorth that one up there i thought was "City of Lettuce"
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18:34:37 <andythenorth> are there any devs here?
18:34:48 <andythenorth> or who is a newgrf expert I could ask a question to?
18:44:32 <TrueBrain> @kick andythenorth go sit in the corner
18:44:32 *** andythenorth was kicked by DorpsGek (go sit in the corner)
18:46:43 <longtomjr> Not even a warining, how could he have knows
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18:47:02 <TrueBrain> good boy andythenorth_corner :)
18:48:48 <longtomjr> andythenorth_corner, JGR's daylength modifies running cost
18:49:15 <longtomjr> That is most likely what is happening
18:50:55 <longtomjr> So I think it might be 16 daylength factor since that is the mulitple
18:51:12 <andythenorth_corner> why the fuck would it do that :D
18:51:12 <longtomjr> but I am not 100% sure how daylength scales that factor
18:51:26 <frosch123> TrueBrain: if i move some templates (like {{!}} or {{-}}) into the template root folder (without en/). does that cause problems on your side? do you expect a language code?
18:51:32 <longtomjr> because otherwise trains are insanely cheap to run
18:51:39 <longtomjr> on higher daylengths
18:51:59 <TrueBrain> frosch123: today I added code that makes link without langauge code invalid, yes :P
18:52:01 <TrueBrain> doesn't mean we can't add it
18:52:05 <TrueBrain> but maybe in its own "language"?
18:52:15 <longtomjr> So the actual running cost per tick might be the same, but because the year has more ticks (to make money and travel) the running costs scale up with it
18:52:26 <frosch123> TrueBrain: okay, sounds like v2 :)
18:52:32 <TrueBrain> how else will we prevent people from making language-specific ones, is my wondering there :)
18:52:52 <andythenorth_corner> longtomjr sounds plausible
18:52:58 <longtomjr> TBH if the daylenth factor is 16 in that screenshot, that running cost is pretty ok
18:53:20 <andythenorth_corner> why is even daylength
18:53:25 <longtomjr> Especaially for a train that is that quick and powerfull
18:54:15 <longtomjr> I like daylength, makes server games last a lot longer ;). The 90% menu scrolling players like that :) (I am one of them)
18:54:21 *** andythenorth_corner is now known as andythenorth
18:55:25 <andythenorth> daylength is a plague, for newgrf bug report purposes
18:55:57 <longtomjr> The ideal is that folks will know daylength affects running costs
18:56:05 <longtomjr> they obviously don't
18:56:20 * andythenorth wishes daylength wasn't in the standard version of OpenTTD :P
18:56:36 <SpComb> wait what, there's daylength in the standard version of OpenTTD?
18:56:51 <TrueBrain> SpComb: with a fixed value of 1, yes
18:56:54 <andythenorth> JGRPP is the standard version
18:56:57 <SpComb> or did you mean JGRPP = standard version :P
18:56:59 <andythenorth> reddit declared some time last yeart
18:57:13 <SpComb> "Legacy OpenTTD" and "JGRPP"
18:57:59 <andythenorth> JGRPP is what reddit (and to a lesser extent) forums direct new players to
18:58:30 <longtomjr> new players, hmm ok
18:59:01 <longtomjr> don't get me wrong, I love playing with JGRPP, but I can easily see it not being the best for new players.
18:59:55 <longtomjr> I mean milage will vary
19:05:22 <andythenorth> what are timetables for anyway?
19:07:50 <longtomjr> Most powerful part is scheduled dispatch. It allows you to fine tune how many trains per hour goes on a route etc.
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19:11:08 <FLHerne> The OTTD timetabling system sucks for that, though
19:13:37 <andythenorth> yeah I just don't understand timetables, no matter how many people explain them :P
19:14:05 <SpComb> TpF has some kind of spreading for trams/busses, but I don't think it has anything for trains. They sometimes get all bunched up
19:14:14 <FLHerne> Because it takes a vast amount of micromanagement to achieve useful results, and then everything breaks whenever you add more vehicles or upgrade something
19:14:33 <andythenorth> 1) why are timetables needed 2) how do they work?
19:15:04 <FLHerne> (the design issue being that the interface is vehicle-oriented rather than service/route-oriented)
19:15:33 <longtomjr> Scheduled dispatch makes the micro not that bad tbh
19:15:54 <FLHerne> andythenorth: (1) to stop vehicles bunching up, or to avoid conflicts at junctions or single-line sections
19:16:20 <andythenorth> but how does the game speed up or slow down the vehicle?
19:16:25 <FLHerne> (2) You set running times for each leg, and dwell times for each station, for each set of orders
19:16:28 <andythenorth> that's the part I don't understand
19:16:35 <FLHerne> For each vehicle, you set a start date
19:16:38 <andythenorth> the maximum speed is set by newgrf
19:16:47 <andythenorth> so how does the vehicle catch up if late?
19:16:52 <FLHerne> If the vehicle is too early, it waits at a station until it isn't
19:16:54 <longtomjr> andythenorth, if it is early, it waits at stations till its calculated departure I think
19:16:59 <FLHerne> If it's too late, it gets endlessly later
19:17:12 <FLHerne> (so, your timetable needs some slack)
19:17:19 <andythenorth> but it will inevitably be late
19:17:23 <andythenorth> due to traffic, breakdowns etc
19:17:59 <andythenorth> and the game literally reduces the speed of the vehicles if early?
19:17:59 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I mean, real trains do that too
19:18:06 <longtomjr> That is where the automatic timetabling helps in some cases, it continually adjust for the changes
19:18:16 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Well, if "stopped" is a kind of reduced, yes
19:18:24 <andythenorth> but timetables need the speed setting?
19:18:33 <andythenorth> I have to set all the speed limits and crap
19:18:51 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The only direct effect of a timetable on a vehicle is to prevent it leaving a station if it's early
19:18:53 <andythenorth> I've never used timetables
19:18:55 <FLHerne> It just keeps loading
19:19:01 <andythenorth> I just do that thing where you set waiting time in stations
19:19:06 <andythenorth> that seems to work fine
19:19:16 <andythenorth> I never understood why people even want timetables
19:19:20 <andythenorth> just set the waiting time
19:19:28 <FLHerne> Because otherwise all your vehicles bunch up
19:19:40 <andythenorth> yeah but if you control the amount of vehicles per station
19:19:43 <andythenorth> and set waiting time
19:19:51 <andythenorth> it's like a flow rate control
19:19:55 <FLHerne> That sounds like it would be ugly and messy
19:20:11 <FLHerne> Timetables would be elegant if they worked
19:20:52 <longtomjr> FLHerne, have you used scheduled dispatch before?
19:21:04 * andythenorth considers screen recording current game
19:21:17 <andythenorth> I have a non-contrived example with trains
19:21:41 <FLHerne> longtomjr: This is a JGR thing?
19:22:07 <longtomjr> I think it is a jgr thing yep
19:22:31 <longtomjr> I am by no means an expert on it, but it seems to work really well for a lot of cases.
19:23:01 <andythenorth> so that naturally spaces them
19:23:05 <andythenorth> no timetables at all
19:23:22 <andythenorth> they do bunch outside the 'wait' station sometimes though
19:27:42 <TrueBrain> frosch123: what do you think of the language postfix on links I added?
19:31:45 <andythenorth> it's misplaced diligence :)
19:31:57 <andythenorth> you know how it goes :)
19:32:12 <FLHerne> longtomjr: This seems a bit kludged onto the existing system, but it is a big improvement
19:33:04 <TrueBrain> (I was looking for a {{Page: example to see if my implementation really works :D)
19:34:03 <TrueBrain> hmm .. 3 minutes and 45 seconds to render all pages .. that time is decreasing while we are adding features :P
19:34:28 <LordAro> TrueBrain: don't suppose i could convince you that spaces in URLs are ugly and should be replaced with underscores?
19:34:31 <TrueBrain> not sure why, honestly .. I am guessing more and more shit is removed from the export, speeding things up :D
19:34:44 <TrueBrain> LordAro: "ugly" for who?
19:34:54 <LordAro> me, looking at the links you're posting :p
19:35:02 <TrueBrain> yes .. don't look at links, click them :P
19:35:08 <TrueBrain> so much prettier that way :D
19:35:11 <LordAro> putty doesn't have clickable links :(
19:35:31 <TrueBrain> ..... I .... well, the 1% can fuck off :P :P :P
19:35:39 <TrueBrain> no, I really don't care, spaces or _
19:35:43 <LordAro> i imagine your matrix client is doing something fancy with them
19:35:45 <TrueBrain> but know that in the wiki a lot of escaping is needed of URLs
19:36:12 <TrueBrain> I mean ... links really do not get prettier
19:36:26 <TrueBrain> so we all kinda have to give up on making links pretty, tbh :)
19:36:41 <TrueBrain> in the browser, there it should be pretty :D
19:38:36 <TrueBrain> Upload 'File:Scn-DontHurtYourEyes-Screenshot.png' does not exist
19:38:36 <TrueBrain> Upload 'File:Scn-DontHurtYourEyes-Minimap.png' does not exist
19:39:41 <TrueBrain> currently, we have: 1025 invalid namespaces in links, 1069 missing templates, 1478 missing uploads and 16914 missing pages
19:39:51 <TrueBrain> NO clue how many are currently not on the wiki too
19:39:56 <TrueBrain> so those stats mean nothing :D
19:42:59 <frosch123> TrueBrain: page templates are on the list for this evening
19:43:05 <TrueBrain> frosch123: ah, sweet :)
19:43:17 <frosch123> and i am gainst replacing spaces with underscores
19:43:23 <frosch123> that adds ambiguity again
19:43:24 <TrueBrain> LordAro: yes .. together with 1476 other missing images ;) frosch123 is still busy with it :)
19:43:31 <TrueBrain> frosch123: he already was convinced, I think :P
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19:44:34 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I am fixing some more errors on the live wiki btw :)
19:44:39 <TrueBrain> like the broken gallery tags in a few, etc
19:45:08 <TrueBrain> LordAro: basically, frosch123 is reading the wikitext and fixing links and figuring out what files are used etc ... but people did some weird-ass shit
19:45:12 <TrueBrain> in this case, it is an image behind a template
19:45:16 <TrueBrain> which is VERY hard to deduce
19:45:21 <TrueBrain> but we will get there :)
19:45:34 <TrueBrain> the numbers above, were over 70k errors last week :P
19:46:33 <TrueBrain> but if you notice issues with how things are rendered or anything else non-content related, please let me know
19:46:36 <TrueBrain> as that for sure is not intended :)
19:46:54 <frosch123> TrueBrain: the links (language) are nice when you do not expect a link to another language. but they are confusing when you look at images which are used in all languages. https://wiki.staging.openttd.org/File/en/OpenttdManual.png <- it would be easier to read if the "used on english page" also had that language tag
19:47:25 <frosch123> TrueBrain: btw. do the link tooltips ever show something else than the link text?
19:47:30 <TrueBrain> that would require a lookup from "en" to "english", but I agree
19:47:42 <TrueBrain> frosch123: 99% of the time, no ..
19:47:47 <TrueBrain> it is one of those things mediawiki does
19:47:57 <TrueBrain> I was considering just dropping that honestly
19:48:02 <frosch123> can we show the full path in the tooltip then?
19:48:13 <TrueBrain> we can do anything :P
19:48:15 <TrueBrain> sounds like a good idea
19:49:19 <frosch123> we will get a lot of pages/templates with identical names
19:49:40 <frosch123> currently we have a lot "Main Page", and i am planning to do the same for "TOC" templates
19:49:48 <frosch123> not sure yet how to name them
19:50:24 <TrueBrain> you should never see "Main Page" anywhere btw :P Well, except for source/edit
19:51:10 <frosch123> LordAro: btw. i moved all changelogs into "archive", so in the future we have a reason to only link to the website changelog, instead someone copying it to the wiki
19:52:09 <frosch123> but i won't be surprised when translators translate the archive
19:52:25 <frosch123> i mean, they translated 10 year old talk pages...
19:52:51 <frosch123> i wonder when they translate the forums
19:54:48 <TrueBrain> hmmm ... "View Source" doesn't show the source, it seems :P
19:55:15 <TrueBrain> yeah, pretty sure it isn't :D
19:57:33 <TrueBrain> hahahaha, oooooppppssss
19:57:41 <TrueBrain> parser functions are resolved in the source :D
19:58:54 <TrueBrain> hmmm ... opinion time frosch123
19:59:07 <TrueBrain> should "[[ File:bla.png ]]" work? (a space between [[ and File)
19:59:13 <TrueBrain> the syntax is, strictly seen: [[File
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20:00:49 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i would say no
20:00:59 <frosch123> TrueBrain: yes, that should work. we also support \n in template parameters and more, so wikilinks/images should not be different
20:01:04 <TrueBrain> all those spaces break it :)
20:01:11 <frosch123> however, my conversion fixes File:\s*foobar
20:01:30 <TrueBrain> I do strip results of switches, as example
20:01:30 <frosch123> no idea how that worked in mediawiki, but maybe only in templates
20:01:44 <TrueBrain> so removing the space between [[ and {{ should be sufficient
20:03:10 <FLHerne> Can someone explain why action6.free_parameters belongs to action6 (and not actionD) ?
20:03:23 <TrueBrain> asking the real questions here FLHerne :)
20:03:42 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I am tempted to not support it for now, as it only breaks very rarely, and really seems easy to fix .. let's see how it goes, I would say :)
20:04:18 <FLHerne> I mean, even its own status message says "Concurrent ActionD registers: ..."
20:04:59 <frosch123> i am the culprit for naming the latter :)
20:05:05 <frosch123> no idea who put it in action6
20:05:15 <frosch123> maybe action6 was the first thing to use them
20:06:32 <TrueBrain> hmmm ... my cache file became corrupted ... oh-oh
20:06:38 <frosch123> but we have all the fancy names :) a0properties, va2variables, va2registers, a679Dparameters
20:06:54 <frosch123> properties, variables, registers, parameters :) all different
20:07:47 <FLHerne> I think that message should be 'parameters' for consistency with everything else?
20:08:35 <frosch123> then they ran out of words and had to resolve to combined terms like "patch variables" (recoined to gamesetting somewhen)
20:09:23 <FLHerne> And the generic 'storages' when you're not sure which word applies :p
20:09:39 <frosch123> FLHerne: i am not sure how consistent those terms really are. it's better to add redundancy for unambiguoty
20:10:00 <frosch123> FLHerne: do you mean temporary or persistent storage? :p
20:10:38 <FLHerne> No, permanent storage
20:10:51 <frosch123> FLHerne: i think i picked "action d registers", since nml uses "parameters" for user-defines parameters only, not those auto-allocated ones
20:11:26 <FLHerne> The code uses 'parameter' for almost everything to do with them
20:12:05 <FLHerne> Well, the docs don't have anything to say about NML's internals
20:25:25 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I fixed all the image errors and gallery issues on the live wiki
20:25:40 <TrueBrain> we have 36 "{{TALKPAGENAME}}" entries .. not sure what we want to do with that
20:26:24 <frosch123> TrueBrain: didn't i already fix the File: in the conversion?
20:26:40 <TrueBrain> "the File:", what are you referring to, sorry?
20:26:52 <frosch123> the image errors you are refering to
20:27:10 <TrueBrain> no, these were things you don't want to fix in your script :)
20:27:17 <TrueBrain> like people typing "grame" instead of frame
20:27:29 <TrueBrain> in the "--validate-all" it reported a few cases
20:28:34 <TrueBrain> sometimes it is easier to do the work than to add glue for it
20:29:07 <TrueBrain> [[:OpenTTD:Village Pump|OpenTTD:Village Pump]]
20:29:11 <TrueBrain> stupid village pump :D
20:30:16 <frosch123> i think i trashed it, but things get confusing :p
20:30:49 <TrueBrain> it is ... a special page, to say the least
20:31:16 <TrueBrain> the banner links to a page that doesn't exist
20:31:54 <TrueBrain> fixed the link .. just ... because I can!
20:32:48 <frosch123> i am not sure what to do with links to trashed pages, or TALKPAGENAME :)
20:33:04 <TrueBrain> just leave them as "dead" pages, honestly
20:33:13 <TrueBrain> and add them to your list of "known dead links" :)
20:33:29 <TrueBrain> a, I meant "dead" links, not pages
20:33:49 <TrueBrain> it will be a while before all the old crap is really removed .. it will require some manual labor, I am sure
20:34:04 <TrueBrain> we do have an active translation team by now on GitHub, hopefully they can also fix the translation on the wiki :P
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20:36:05 <TrueBrain> right, when-ever you make a new API export, few more issues should be fixed .. nothing more I can do for you there :) Mostly it is up to you now .. sorry :P
20:42:42 <frosch123> hmm. when i have {{Foobar}}... what does it check first? Template:Foobar or Main:Foobar ?
20:43:51 <TrueBrain> well, last we talked about this, you said it shouldn't check either/or
20:44:03 <TrueBrain> so {{Foobar]} resolves to Template/Foobar (which doesn't exist, ever)
20:44:06 <frosch123> yes, for truewiki, for sure :)
20:44:10 <frosch123> but what does mediawiki do?
20:44:16 <frosch123> i need to convert them :)
20:44:27 <TrueBrain> euh .... we have that ambiguity?
20:44:32 <TrueBrain> I think it does template first
20:44:37 <TrueBrain> but ... honestly no clue
20:44:43 <frosch123> i hope not. i went for Template:
20:44:44 <TrueBrain> I just hope nobody in his right mind would do that :P
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20:45:48 <frosch123> {{User:Pystro/Template:Link Translation}} <- great...
20:47:05 <frosch123> i hate translators :)
20:47:23 <TrueBrain> the Pystro ones are ... rather annoying to work your way through
20:47:26 <TrueBrain> I know from experience :(
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20:51:54 <TrueBrain> right, merged a bunch of fixes into truewiki .. now "source" should really be "source" :D
20:52:28 <TrueBrain> this weekend I want to finish editing
20:52:47 <TrueBrain> hopefully that is easy enough :D
21:08:38 <andythenorth> boats aren't trains
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21:11:14 <frosch123> sometimes you implement one thing, and it fixes another thing
21:14:35 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Unless they're barge trains
21:28:38 <frosch123> TrueBrain: migrated page transclusions. funnily my refactoring for that also fixed a lot of other templates :p
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21:33:23 <TrueBrain> Will check it out tomorrow :D
21:33:32 <TrueBrain> How many errors left?
21:33:50 <frosch123> it goes up and down :)
21:35:40 <TrueBrain> Wasnt it 6k a few days ago? :p
21:35:55 <frosch123> yes, then you detected more issues
21:36:08 <TrueBrain> Owh, yes ... templates missing :D
21:53:23 <andythenorth> oof I thought maybe ship types would be like train types
21:53:28 <andythenorth> so Water Horse, or Water Hog
21:53:34 <andythenorth> doesn't match up though
22:06:48 <TrueBrain> Like watching an election in reverse :D
22:32:06 <Heiki> there’s railtypes and roadtypes, but when will we have watertypes?
22:32:27 <frosch123> we have waterclasses
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22:34:01 <Heiki> but no electrified canals yet
22:34:43 <LordAro> short & long runways/planes
22:35:15 <LordAro> and helicopters, of course
22:36:36 <frosch123> Heiki: nuts has wetrail
22:36:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: it's weekend for me :p
22:58:44 <frosch123> how weird, my query of WantedPages seems to be incomplete
23:09:17 <frosch123> ok, i hit a mediawiki bug :)
23:09:55 <frosch123> the pagination of wantedpages does not work, it sorts the pages indeterministic
23:10:07 <frosch123> so i get many duplicates and many missing
23:11:01 <frosch123> i guess i just reload it 10 times, and hope to hit most :p
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23:20:51 <frosch123> hey, results are stable after 4 reloads
23:23:26 <frosch123> that's the most stupid reduction due to a mediawiki bug :)
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23:29:06 <TrueBrain> Well, seriously fucked up even :p
23:32:05 <frosch123> ok, 5 cases of " " after "[["
23:32:19 <frosch123> fixed them with the script, let's rerun the check
23:33:03 <frosch123> hmm, i guess the same applies for " " after "{{" ?
23:39:24 <TrueBrain> Likely, but possibly not :D
23:39:42 <TrueBrain> Initially I stripped everything .. but that does break some things too :p
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23:49:40 <frosch123> [[<!--AI:Main Page-->SI:Strona_główna/Pl|NoAI Framework]] <- great...
23:55:11 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
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