IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-11-03
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03:30:07 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Montandalar commented on issue #7831: Crash on placing vehicle in group that used to contain 1 vehicle https://git.io/JerJc
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10:29:13 <TrueBrain> oops, found a bunch more pages that are not in the current wiki export ... missing templates that are included :D
10:29:19 <TrueBrain> they were not reported yet :P
12:16:16 <TrueBrain> right ... after first startup, startup times are now a lot better :D w00p .. I think I found a clean way to cache all this metadata stuff :P
12:24:45 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #7831: Crash on placing vehicle in group that used to contain 1 vehicle https://git.io/JerJc
12:24:46 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7831: Crash on placing vehicle in group that used to contain 1 vehicle https://git.io/JerJc
12:41:38 <FLHerne> > In addition, \<hex> (up to two characters) inserts the byte <hex>, and \U<hex> (up to four characters) inserts the UTF-8 encoding of the character U+<hex>
12:42:05 <FLHerne> How does grfcodec know when it's got to the end of 'up to'?
12:47:12 * FLHerne tries to read the code, but asks anyway in case it's in two places or incomprehensible
12:47:58 <FLHerne> If it's only the version in readinfo.cpp, it's actually surprisingly readable...
13:00:02 <FLHerne> `ctoi` returns the numeric value of a hex digit, e.g. 11 for 'b' and 0 for '0'
13:00:13 <FLHerne> It *also* returns 0 in case of failure
13:01:27 <FLHerne> So each caller has to do `if (ctoi(ch) == 0 && ch != 0) ...`
13:01:42 <FLHerne> If only there were more than 16 numbers
13:02:16 <FLHerne> Perhaps they were introduced in the same reality-update as spaces
13:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> that's basically like "on error resume next"?
13:25:12 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Sorry, I have no idea what you just said :p
13:25:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant the "treat all errors as 0"
13:26:22 <FLHerne> I suppose it would be, except the callers then go out of their way to not do that
13:28:35 <Eddi|zuHause> some egoistic dick saying "it's faster this way" making it worse for everyone else
13:30:45 <Eddi|zuHause> from a software engineering perspective, the solution here should be that the function is never called with invalid characters in the first place
13:32:33 <Eddi|zuHause> so treat "ch is a valid hex digit" as a precondition
13:33:31 <FLHerne> Or literally anything else that's not in the range 0-15...
13:33:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm assuming here that you can't change the function
13:34:02 <FLHerne> I'm only reading it because I wanted to know what the behaviour was
14:30:32 <TrueBrain> that was your mistake honestly :P
14:32:03 <Eddi|zuHause> still, i maintain that with this function the "correct" approach is to make it a strict precondition, rather than trying to figure out whether there was an error after the fact
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15:06:19 <TrueBrain> right, editing pages that takes 10+ seconds before the metadata is updated, is no longer blocking the web :)
15:06:31 <TrueBrain> it does its thing in the background now :)
15:14:30 <TrueBrain> these small QoL changes consume a lot of LoC :P
15:32:21 <TrueBrain> I am honestly still surprised I can do "FROM" in images that come from Docker Hub on GitHub Actions .. I am just waiting for that rate limiter to hit honestly :P
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15:58:41 <arikover> andythenorth: Thank you for Iron Horse 2.9.0! I added a PR for the french translation.
16:21:20 <TrueBrain> so 2.9.1 incoming? :P
16:26:25 * andythenorth ponders dynamic translations for newgrf, no release :P
16:26:34 <andythenorth> could never work
16:37:47 <TrueBrain> "please send in a chat message the base64 encoded translation you would like to use"
16:37:54 <TrueBrain> what could POSSIBLY go wrong :D
16:43:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe give it a week in case more translations trickle in?
16:43:34 <andythenorth> releases are cheap-ish
16:44:05 <andythenorth> TrueBrain you trying to keep AWS costs down?
16:44:20 <TrueBrain> YES! That is the excuse why I am trolling :P
16:46:26 <TrueBrain> right, lets see if the wiki wants to start on staging ..
16:47:04 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone know why my wine has no sound?
16:47:41 <TrueBrain> because you are suppose to drink it?
16:47:51 <Eddi|zuHause> oh... it's some pulseaudio shenanigans where it picks the wrong device
16:48:44 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I am going to request credits again on the AWS Open Source plan .. how will it go this year you think?
16:48:51 <TrueBrain> I have to remember what I filled in last year ...
16:50:23 <TrueBrain> I need to find my IRC logs back for that :P
17:02:38 <longtomjr> Aaah, did you get credits last year?
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17:14:54 <TrueBrain> luckily enough we did
17:14:59 <TrueBrain> otherwise we wouldn't be this far in the migration tbfh :)
17:17:11 <TrueBrain> lol .. I always love the AWS calculator
17:17:18 <TrueBrain> it always give me these numbers that are not realistic
17:26:09 <TrueBrain> right ... filled in the form .. now to wait for andythenorth 's feedback if my text is good enough :P (he is much better in convincing people to give us money)
17:26:21 <TrueBrain> requested twice as much funds this year as last .. will see if they like us enough :)
17:29:50 <longtomjr> What is used to make up the difference?
17:30:00 <TrueBrain> what difference? :P
17:30:07 <TrueBrain> but say we would run out, donations
17:31:04 <TrueBrain> the main thing we currently cannot afford, is serving 1% of the BaNaNaS entries .. the 1% costs like 300 euro a month
17:31:15 <TrueBrain> so without AWS's support, we would to find an alternative means for that
17:31:21 <TrueBrain> either by dirt-cheap VPS from OVH
17:31:24 <TrueBrain> or .. by stop hosting it :P
17:31:50 <TrueBrain> otherwise we haven't had to need to hold a fundraiser in ... years and years
17:31:58 <TrueBrain> and mostly OpenTTD donates to tt-forums
17:32:22 <TrueBrain> (as you might have spotted, we nowhere actively request for donations .. yet people are more than kind enough to donate sufficient funds a year for us to pay bills)
17:32:53 <longtomjr> Yep, to be honest I had to go look for it now, have never seen a donation link or anything.
17:33:28 <longtomjr> Wait, these OVH vms are cheap, what is the catch?
17:33:38 <TrueBrain> not much .. well, unmanaged hosting
17:33:43 <TrueBrain> I guess that is the catch
17:34:30 <longtomjr> I can save $4 a month on my current openttd server hosting, and not have to resort to using swap. That is almost halving my costs.
17:35:33 <TrueBrain> the idea of the AWS migration was to get away from unmanaged hosting .. as I don't have the time, and nobody seems to care enough to help out :P
17:35:44 <TrueBrain> but .. managed hosting costs more money, especially on traffic
17:36:05 <TrueBrain> it is worth that money honestly :)
17:36:46 <TrueBrain> okay, wiki is "running", login just fails :P
17:38:39 <longtomjr> Let me know once that works :)
17:39:47 <TrueBrain> ah, found the issue .. spaces :D
17:39:53 <TrueBrain> well, staging is nothing to do any work on
17:40:00 <TrueBrain> every change is COMPLETELY forgotten every restart
17:40:02 <longtomjr> Yep, but testing right
17:40:15 <longtomjr> I can try breaking it?
17:40:44 <TrueBrain> I haven't done a check myself, so I am pretty sure you can break it easily :)
17:41:07 <longtomjr> Is there specific things that I should be testing?
17:41:26 <TrueBrain> I just wanted to bring it online tbh
17:41:37 <TrueBrain> wanted to see how the resources etc are doing :)
17:41:47 <longtomjr> Ah ok, so I should do a lot of clicking
17:41:55 <longtomjr> or start a bot farm
17:42:27 <TrueBrain> honestly, not sure if testing is useful atm :)
17:42:31 <TrueBrain> we know there are broken links etc
17:43:19 <TrueBrain> clearly it needs better caching, that is for sure
17:43:23 <longtomjr> Ok, let me know once testing will be more usefull
17:43:48 <TrueBrain> owh, I love sentry ..
17:43:54 <TrueBrain> seems someone triggered a boo-boo :)
17:44:11 <longtomjr> I clicked back when the login was still broken from the login screen
17:44:17 <TrueBrain> (any server error you receive doesn't need reporting; I know quicker what is going on than you can type :P)
17:44:25 <TrueBrain> yeah .. I made a boo-boo there :)
17:44:43 <TrueBrain> seems bananas-api has the same boo-boo, so that is interesting :)
17:44:53 <longtomjr> Hehe, I should get sentry up for our application, or just do it manually with our logging stack and alertmanger + pagerduty
17:45:19 <TrueBrain> sentry makes my life so much easier ...
17:45:24 <TrueBrain> people not always report error pages
17:45:29 <TrueBrain> and if they do, you have to figure out what caused it
17:45:35 <TrueBrain> with sentry .. often in minutes I found out what is going on
17:45:49 <TrueBrain> like this exception .. it is so obvious from the sentry report
17:45:54 <longtomjr> Negatives of working for a startup is that paying services are not always an option.
17:46:10 <TrueBrain> but sentry is worth any money, honestly
17:47:08 <longtomjr> Gonna be a hard sell at that price currently, I got our staging cluster to be cheaper than it.
17:47:21 <longtomjr> Hmm, maybe I can get the board interested since this is a metric they might want to see
17:47:30 <longtomjr> that might be my angle to get this approved
17:48:36 <TrueBrain> it is 26 dollar a month
17:48:43 <TrueBrain> honestly, if a startup cannot pay that ...
17:49:06 <longtomjr> Yep I know, but there is a lot of saas stuff already on our bill
17:49:11 <TrueBrain> you going home 10 minutes early costs more :P
17:49:26 <TrueBrain> but anyway, I love Sentry :)
17:49:28 <longtomjr> They can pay it, but they try to be conservative
17:49:59 <longtomjr> So it is more about justifying the costs, otherwise it can get out of hand.
17:50:09 <longtomjr> Anyways, will give sentry a try for sure :)
17:50:33 <TrueBrain> it is free for Open Source, so that made it a lot easier for OpenTTD :D
17:50:45 <longtomjr> Oh wait, all of our stuff is FOSS
17:50:46 <TrueBrain> right .. staging shows I need to fix caching by .. a lot :P
17:50:55 <longtomjr> So we can get it for free then
17:51:48 <TrueBrain> 17ms to generate and transmit the manual page .. lol
17:52:28 <longtomjr> You can probably just render server side and only update the cache when the page were edited right?
17:52:31 <TrueBrain> just that images are not cached is annoying while browsing :)
17:52:42 <TrueBrain> there most likely will be 2 "instances" of the wiki
17:52:49 <TrueBrain> which does client-side caching
17:52:51 <TrueBrain> and 1 where you view
17:52:56 <TrueBrain> which is most likely a prerender of everything
17:53:17 <longtomjr> Prerender just need to be updated if any linked templates etc change
17:54:49 <TrueBrain> right, it takes ~40 seconds to clone the GitHub repository ... hmm .. I think I will cache that in EFS
17:54:54 <longtomjr> do you know how long it takes the render the whole wiki
17:55:10 <TrueBrain> and most of that is CPU-bound work
17:55:45 <TrueBrain> I/O seems to cost ~2 seconds .. lol ..
17:56:11 <longtomjr> Are you trying to get the startup sequence to be quicker?
17:56:31 <TrueBrain> if/when the container starts to flip/flop, there might be an issue
17:56:40 <TrueBrain> as that means it will pull 500MB from GitHub every N minutes
17:56:58 <TrueBrain> I am not the biggest fan of that
17:57:07 <TrueBrain> startup of 40 seconds is fine; they have 5 minutes to start up basically
17:57:24 <TrueBrain> but this is an aiohttp application .. crashing it, is REALLY difficult honestly
17:58:07 <TrueBrain> so I might just leave it for now
17:58:42 <longtomjr> I mean as long as the container does not report ready untill it is done, and you have some replicas it should be fine
17:59:44 <TrueBrain> this won't have a replica, but it is fine nevertheless :)
18:00:02 <TrueBrain> it only reports ready if HTTP starts to response, which is after the GitHub repo is cloned
18:00:26 <TrueBrain> it currently cannot have a replica, as sessions are stored in memory
18:00:34 <TrueBrain> for the "edit" server, that is fine
18:00:39 <TrueBrain> the view part needs replicas :)
18:02:08 <longtomjr> Why do you need that?
18:02:16 <TrueBrain> because it is easier to implement
18:02:22 <TrueBrain> I need to check out encrypted cookies
18:02:24 <TrueBrain> which solves that problem
18:02:29 <TrueBrain> but .. something with priorities :)
18:03:09 <TrueBrain> but if sessions are not in memory, I can make an EFS share for the data, and 2 "edit" servers can run next to each other
18:03:14 <TrueBrain> that would be neat :)
18:03:26 <TrueBrain> just ... no need .. as if the "edit" server is down, nobody really cares :P
18:03:31 <TrueBrain> it is annoying, but that is about it :)
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18:07:21 <TrueBrain> still not sure how I want to do the "view" part tbh
18:07:37 <TrueBrain> I now have code that detects what file changed in a repo (based on a cache), so I know exactly what files to invalidate
18:08:27 <longtomjr> And you know which templates link to which pages and other templates?
18:08:48 <TrueBrain> I know exactly what is no longer valid
18:08:57 <TrueBrain> so I am thinking just pushing to S3, CloudFront, done
18:09:06 <TrueBrain> and after new upload, send a /** cache invalidation to CloudFront
18:09:21 <TrueBrain> might be the easiest thing to do ..
18:09:29 <TrueBrain> lol @ spammers ... this email ... let me see if I can share it ..
18:09:46 <longtomjr> ah CloudFront is their CDN
18:10:03 <longtomjr> Yep, that makes sense, I though object storage -> CDN as well as the simplest
18:10:20 <TrueBrain> yeah, there are a few things that need to be considered
18:10:26 <TrueBrain> for example, when you go to a page that doesn't exist
18:10:30 <TrueBrain> it should give you the option to edit it
18:10:34 <TrueBrain> so that is a bit tricky :)
18:10:42 <TrueBrain> Lambda@Edge, but .. I need to see how that works :)
18:11:00 <TrueBrain> pretty sure for v1 I just start an "edit" server :P
18:12:19 <longtomjr> So data flows from EditServer -> S3 -> CDN -> Lambda 'server' -> Browser?
18:12:39 <TrueBrain> Lambda@Edge is like CloudFlare workers
18:12:46 <TrueBrain> they sit on either end of the CDN
18:12:57 <TrueBrain> but for v1, I am just going to launch what is now on staging
18:13:05 <TrueBrain> it is not the fastest, but it will be fine
18:13:21 <TrueBrain> after that, a GitHub Actions that renders all pages, uploads to S3, CloudFront serves these pages
18:13:27 <TrueBrain> a Lambda@Edge checks if the page exists on S3
18:13:33 <TrueBrain> if not, returns a "Edit this page"
18:13:42 <TrueBrain> login points to edit.wiki.openttd.org or something
18:14:04 <TrueBrain> that last line cracked me up
18:14:57 <TrueBrain> WE ARE NOT SPAMMERS WE JUST TALK IN CAPITALS AND SEND YOU UNWANTED EMAIL
18:15:11 <TrueBrain> I wonder what the success rate is, honestly
18:15:14 <TrueBrain> anyway, dinner time
18:15:19 <longtomjr> Yep, also, Android released 12 years ago
18:15:24 <longtomjr> so at least they did some homework
18:19:18 <TrueBrain> Often they email us follow up emails for 4 months
18:19:31 <TrueBrain> This is on info@ of OpenTTD btw
18:19:42 <longtomjr> same email address?
18:19:54 <TrueBrain> We had those in the past, yes
18:20:06 <TrueBrain> We will see how much of a spammer this dude is :)
18:20:19 <TrueBrain> Sorry: supplied of unwanted email
18:20:27 <TrueBrain> Supplier.. typing hard
18:22:13 <andythenorth> are we buying an app?
18:22:25 <longtomjr> True wiki needs a mobile app yep
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18:22:39 <longtomjr> so we need to get on that, or outsource it
18:27:30 <andythenorth> if only someone would offer the service
18:43:20 <TrueBrain> I would appreciate it if they send us an email making the offer
18:47:37 <andythenorth> but I never check email
18:47:45 <andythenorth> I do get these things on linkedin sometimes
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18:54:20 <andythenorth> something something Github Archive Program
18:54:26 <andythenorth> GH sent me a message
18:56:15 <longtomjr> To add your grfs to the arctic vault?
18:56:30 <andythenorth> I didn't read it properly
18:56:40 <longtomjr> we need good train and industry sets after the apocolypse
19:11:10 <longtomjr> we will also need a spellchecker
19:11:53 <andythenorth> slow cloudfront invalidation is slow
19:12:07 <frosch123> which language are we going to establish after the apocalypse?
19:12:45 <longtomjr> since that is probably what the universe is coded in
19:12:51 * andythenorth must release Iron Horse
19:12:59 <andythenorth> who wrote this bananas HTML eh?
19:13:03 <frosch123> did you find some unbalanced parantheses?
19:13:10 <FLHerne> Nah, it was meant to be, but it's really kludged together in Perl
19:14:03 <andythenorth> frosch123 I genuinely thought you referred to this :P
19:14:20 <andythenorth> as I just looked at that commit, and my brain made the wrong connection
19:15:19 <andythenorth> clearly that commit was a lisp coder
19:15:44 <longtomjr> The previous commit
19:16:18 <longtomjr> I know limited amounts of lisp. Enough to keep me out of trouble when hacking emacs
19:16:29 <andythenorth> arikover 2.9.1 now on Bananaas
19:16:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: i worded the question intentionally ambiguous, to see whether someone would suggest esperanto or ido. but i did not expect an iron horse diff :)
19:18:35 <andythenorth> nobody expects the Iron Horse Diff
19:19:34 <frosch123> i saw that sketch the other day, otherwise it would have been to obscure
19:21:30 <longtomjr> Just read up about it, that is quite interesting
19:23:26 <longtomjr> Have the boats been shelved?
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19:45:55 <TrueBrain> they just cancelled all our vacations till mid January .. at least that is a rather clear instruction :D
19:49:07 <TrueBrain> prime minister, in this case
19:52:27 <longtomjr> TrueBrain, like vacations to go somewhere?
19:52:54 <TrueBrain> lol, sorry, I was a bit unclear .. in Dutch it is a bit more clear: out-of-country travel :)
19:54:01 <frosch123> are there exemptions for open-source-meetups?
19:54:17 <TrueBrain> even family visits are not allowed out-of-the-country :)
19:55:03 <frosch123> "yay we longer have to visit out aunt in law"
19:56:06 <TrueBrain> pretty funny how bad journalists were, asking stupid stupid STUPID questions
19:56:26 <TrueBrain> they were like: on what legal base do you not allow us to go out of the country? It is allowed by law!
19:56:37 <TrueBrain> like .. dude ... he is telling you: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't go unless you REALLLYLYYYYYLYLYYLY have to
19:56:58 <longtomjr> Are you in the Netherlands?
19:56:58 <TrueBrain> why does it immediately has to be a law etc ... use your fucking brain or something?
19:57:11 <TrueBrain> owh, if that wasn't clear yet of all the conversations we had, yes, longtomjr :P
19:57:34 <longtomjr> I just remembered that Flemish and Dutch are 2 different languages
19:57:45 <frosch123> yay, can you disable the "mail from external source"-banner for trusted-unencrypted/unsigned-known customers?
19:57:49 <longtomjr> I should have been able to deduce that
19:57:57 <andythenorth> we have a prime minister
19:58:09 <TrueBrain> frosch123: lol .. that still going on? :D
19:58:35 <TrueBrain> well, our prime minister took .... not many words to tell the journalist he is an idiot .. just not directly .. in very nice words ..
19:58:48 <TrueBrain> but I like how he can be like: dude .. wtf ... is this what you waste our time with? reallllyyyy???!!!
19:58:53 <TrueBrain> he doesn't say it ... but owh, he does :P
19:59:01 <frosch123> TrueBrain: they even went to the senior ceo. who likely has an assistant to deal with that modern stuff
20:00:08 <TrueBrain> as added bonus it logs everyone out :D
20:00:35 <frosch123> TrueBrain: other suggestions were to move the banner to the bottom, to make it less visible
20:00:52 <TrueBrain> as ... that is what it is for .. to make it LESS visible ...
20:01:24 <frosch123> i did not detect any troll answers :)
20:01:29 <frosch123> i think they were all serious
20:01:45 <TrueBrain> Chrome renders the wiki a lot better than FireFox ... in Chrome clicking pages is pretty fluent ... in FireFox it is not
20:03:03 <longtomjr> code is not set in query-string
20:03:07 <TrueBrain> Firefox keeps randomly forgetting to get things from cache
20:03:19 <longtomjr> Did sentry send you something?
20:03:31 <TrueBrain> no, I fixed the bug, it should give you that page :)
20:03:39 <TrueBrain> as that should only happen if you do something wrong, basically
20:03:57 <longtomjr> What if I want to log in, see the permissions and then click cancel
20:04:11 <TrueBrain> hmm, cancel ... pretty sure that is not a flow we implemented :D
20:04:14 <longtomjr> as in nevermind, take me back to the hompage or where I was before I clicked login
20:05:06 <longtomjr> That one gave me a json response
20:05:10 <longtomjr> {"message": "code is not set in query-string"}
20:05:24 <longtomjr> redirected to api.bananas.staging.openttd.org
20:05:46 <longtomjr> I think this is a minor issue, just wanted to test if it still happens.
20:06:09 <TrueBrain> as it will be really low on my list to fix, but it is a bug nevertheless :D
20:06:19 <longtomjr> 'good first issue' nudge nudge, wink wink
20:06:29 <TrueBrain> if you are up to it :P
20:07:44 <longtomjr> Hehe might pick it up :)
20:07:54 <longtomjr> For now, gonna go to bed. Night all! o/
20:08:03 <TrueBrain> hmm ... the browser sends an If-Modified-Since .. but the server returns a 200 .. that is odd
20:11:15 <TrueBrain> it is so weird how different it works on localhost ... who is doing what to which header ...
20:15:35 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I btw fixed a bug that was hiding missing templates
20:15:43 <TrueBrain> so we now have more errors again :(
20:16:13 <TrueBrain> I think the main issue is that {{en/Bla}} currently always tries Template/en/Bla, en not Page/en/Bla
20:16:18 <TrueBrain> which I think sometimes the intention is
20:17:20 <frosch123> we have transclusion for regular pages?
20:17:30 <TrueBrain> I know mediawiki allows it
20:17:35 <TrueBrain> and I think we have pages like that too
20:17:43 <TrueBrain> but I haven't really looked for a page that does this, honestly
20:17:43 <frosch123> iirc that is a special setting
20:17:57 <frosch123> we enabled it for newgrfspecs, because we had a usecase
20:18:15 <TrueBrain> do I understand you correctly truewiki should not support this? :P
20:18:35 <frosch123> anyway, next release will fix many issues by trashing the pages that use them :p
20:19:33 <frosch123> i think all categories that use {{PAGESINCAT}} are now in the trash list :)
20:19:53 <TrueBrain> I assumed that "Other languages" wasn't going to be in your migration result, no :)
20:20:02 <milek7> ..what's wrong with asking about legal basis for public official statement?
20:20:25 <TrueBrain> milek7: because YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED !== WE STRONGLY ADVISE AGAINST ?
20:20:42 <TrueBrain> you have to be a REAL SPECIAL journalist if you do not understand that
20:21:09 <andythenorth> can we debate licenses?
20:21:15 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: TrueBrain
20:21:21 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: sure, we can, I can @kick :)
20:21:32 <frosch123> how about lisences?
20:21:59 <TrueBrain> hmm .. did I just render the whole wiki in 4 minutes? That is unusual short ..
20:22:29 <TrueBrain> seems that really was all
20:22:41 <andythenorth> I render a whole newgrf faster than that
20:22:51 <TrueBrain> guess frosch123 has been trashing the right pages :P
20:22:52 <andythenorth> you doing it locally?
20:23:05 <TrueBrain> that was locally yes .. but on a single core .. it is a powerful one
20:23:09 <frosch123> i didn't push since sunday, i think
20:23:17 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I haven't tried this in a week :P
20:23:24 <TrueBrain> you know better most likely how long --validate took
20:24:54 <frosch123> i read some old requests to bundle the wiki as pdf with each release
20:25:26 <TrueBrain> owh, only 1011 templates are missing
20:25:30 <TrueBrain> that is a lot less than I expected
20:25:57 <frosch123> yeah, working on that
20:26:24 <TrueBrain> those scenarios are not templates
20:27:08 <TrueBrain> I fully understand the use-case there btw
20:27:32 <frosch123> oh, i assumed they just linked them
20:27:38 <TrueBrain> nope, they included them
20:28:02 <TrueBrain> well, "they tried to transclude them", to use mediawiki lingo :P
20:28:13 <TrueBrain> supporting it is honestly not difficult
20:28:17 <TrueBrain> check 1 folder, check the next
20:28:31 <TrueBrain> it is more a question of: do we want this behaviour :P
20:29:00 <TrueBrain> this is btw true for all these scenario pages .. they are all not working :)
20:29:17 <TrueBrain> 338 scenario link issues :D
20:29:25 <frosch123> well, i put them all into "archive" because i people should use categories
20:29:33 <frosch123> but that was assuming they were just links
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20:30:33 <frosch123> i don't like that ambiguity in the template name
20:30:48 <frosch123> can/should we prefix them with ":" or something?
20:31:02 <frosch123> does mediawiki have an disambiguation rule here?
20:31:11 <TrueBrain> Main, in mediawiki case
20:31:27 <TrueBrain> we can do that it has to be: {{Page/en/Community/Scenario ...}
20:31:38 <TrueBrain> or Page: for all I care
20:31:47 <TrueBrain> make it explicit you meant a page, and I am happy :)
20:32:08 <frosch123> with colon, not slash
20:32:20 * andythenorth wonders how long it takes to render a newgrf
20:32:25 <TrueBrain> that makes Template: the implied one
20:32:32 <TrueBrain> where for [[ ]] it is Page: that is implied
20:33:10 <supermop_Home> render a newgrf?
20:34:27 <TrueBrain> btw, frosch123 , you cannot have a Category folder in Page
20:34:31 <TrueBrain> or a Page folder in File
20:34:41 <TrueBrain> none of these "reserved" words can be the first folder inside these folders
20:34:54 <TrueBrain> so no Page/en/Category
20:35:39 <TrueBrain> my namespace detection on one hand; but I could work around that
20:35:43 <TrueBrain> my sanity on the other hand
20:35:48 <TrueBrain> [[en/Category/Cargo]]
20:35:52 <TrueBrain> that ... just pisses me off :P
20:36:17 <TrueBrain> (it is of course [[Category:en/Cargo]] what is meant there)
20:36:53 <frosch123> but there is always a language code in first place
20:37:00 <frosch123> how would that break the namespace stuff?
20:37:06 <TrueBrain> yeah, and for that same reason you cannot have a namespace called "en" btw :P
20:37:26 <frosch123> yes, but I expected that :)
20:37:39 <TrueBrain> good point, I think I have been testing it wrong .. so the namespace detection should just work fine
20:37:48 <TrueBrain> nevertheless ... please not namespace folders inside other namespaces :P
20:37:49 <frosch123> anyway, i think we have Page:Wiki/Templates or something
20:38:00 <TrueBrain> that is fine, honestly
20:38:03 <TrueBrain> just not Page:Template
20:38:03 <frosch123> well, Page:en/Wiki/Templates
20:38:27 <TrueBrain> well, Page:en/Template :D
20:38:39 <TrueBrain> but you are right, it shouldn't be an issue
20:39:13 <frosch123> we will find out which language translates "Manual" to "File" :)
20:40:53 <frosch123> i saw some german pages which translated "File" to "Akte" (which is that paper database burocrats had 50 years ago)
20:41:26 <TrueBrain> if we want to be a good boy, we do have to translate our folders etc too
20:41:33 <TrueBrain> s/folders/namespaces/
20:41:46 <TrueBrain> I did not prepare the code for that, but I guess it is not difficult to add
20:41:50 <TrueBrain> just .. do I want to .... :P
20:42:06 <frosch123> wikipedia does that, but it is insanely stupid. you would also have to translate <pre> <i> <div> etc
20:42:40 <frosch123> i think wikitextparser explicitly stated that it does not support localised namespaces :)
20:42:58 <frosch123> just like [[link]]trails
20:43:24 <TrueBrain> they are language depending .. I gave up when reading that
20:43:27 <TrueBrain> that is so insanely stupid
20:44:07 <frosch123> so, either peopl can write english wikitext, or they would only use a wysiwig editor
20:44:59 <TrueBrain> but namespaces are a bit different, as they are also in the URL
20:45:28 <TrueBrain> but I think it is a really bad idea to translate them
20:45:55 <frosch123> yeah, better translate the privacy policy :p
20:53:02 <TrueBrain> okay, code-wise Page: syntax now works :)
20:53:11 <TrueBrain> I guess you have more work finding those links :P
20:53:55 <TrueBrain> do we also want to support {{Category:en/Bla}} ? :)
20:55:15 <frosch123> it would make sense if they were not so long
20:55:32 <TrueBrain> I would say ... you can link it at the bottom, that is good enough? :D
20:55:53 <TrueBrain> well, adding support is simple, but lets minimize the feature-set as much as we can, I would say :)
20:55:58 <frosch123> there are certainly more important things :)
20:56:18 <frosch123> do we support <references> though?
20:56:33 <frosch123> i forgot whether that is standard meanwhile, or still an extension
20:56:33 <TrueBrain> I did not add support for it yet, as I believe I remove all usages of them :P
20:56:48 <TrueBrain> <templatedata> similar, although that one sounds useful
20:57:00 <TrueBrain> but the only tag currently supported is "gallery" :)
20:57:54 <frosch123> never heard of a <templatedata>, but i also never used a wysiwig editor for wiki :)
20:58:20 <frosch123> <references> is used on the newgrf wiki a lot. so if you ever want to take that over from therudge, we would need it :)
20:59:05 <TrueBrain> I did not even consider that, lol
20:59:11 <TrueBrain> not a bad idea honestly
20:59:15 <TrueBrain> what does <references> do .. /me reads
20:59:39 <TrueBrain> well, we can add it easily if needed
20:59:43 <TrueBrain> the infrastructure is there for it
20:59:51 <TrueBrain> mediawiki-tags is modular in wikitexthtml
21:00:08 <frosch123> and <references/> at the bottom
21:00:08 <TrueBrain> so, not for v1, but when-ever :)
21:00:28 <TrueBrain> just 1 per page, max?
21:00:39 <frosch123> no, as many as you want
21:00:46 <TrueBrain> the <references/> part, I meant
21:00:50 <frosch123> ever <reference> clears the container of previous <ref>
21:00:59 <TrueBrain> well, that is easy to implement honestly
21:01:06 <TrueBrain> so lets do that when we get there .. if we get there :D
21:08:08 <frosch123> hmm, i like the templates directory
21:08:24 <frosch123> it's like regular web frameworks, but with .mediawiki extension
21:09:06 <TrueBrain> hmm ... I think I am going to move wikilink support from wikitexthtml to truewiki repo .. that makes more sense, it just makes wikitexthtml a bit less useful .. hmm
21:09:21 <TrueBrain> (always difficult, what to put and what not to put in a library)
21:13:06 <andythenorth> put books in a library?
21:13:15 <andythenorth> sorry about me :P
21:14:17 <TrueBrain> why would I want books of you in my library? :)
21:16:39 <andythenorth> there are books about me?
21:16:41 <andythenorth> I hope they are nice
21:17:16 <frosch123> they mostly consist of percentages
21:20:33 <andythenorth> I like the particle effects they added, but they must be fake
21:23:22 <frosch123> i didn't know they just bash it until everything comes out
21:23:29 <TrueBrain> I am still amazed you can draw that .... I cannot draw shit :P
21:23:53 <andythenorth> I can code shit code
21:24:00 <TrueBrain> I promise you, you can code better than I can draw :D
21:24:13 <andythenorth> what I tell my kids
21:24:15 <TrueBrain> hmm ... wikipedia indexes where files are being used
21:24:17 <andythenorth> just keep frigging doing it
21:24:22 <TrueBrain> that sounds useful to have
21:24:55 <frosch123> yes, it's about the only useful Special: page :p
21:25:07 <frosch123> not sure whether you want to add "Special:" though...
21:25:38 <frosch123> definitely do not allow transcluding Special: pages :)
21:26:24 <TrueBrain> so I was planning on adding it there
21:26:35 <TrueBrain> I was already planning on doing the same with pages
21:28:44 <TrueBrain> we cannot track files over different languages, can we?
21:32:43 <frosch123> no, that would need those File: pages :)
21:33:33 <frosch123> actually, that was the only use case we listed the other day, when discussing whether we want File: pages :p
21:33:47 <TrueBrain> yeah, I was sure we already talked about this :P
21:34:49 <TrueBrain> I still really do not know, honestly
21:35:07 <frosch123> just tell me where you want them :) mixed with the uploads? "File/foo.mediawiki" + "File/foo.png"? or separate dir "File/foo.mediawiki"+"uploads/foo.png"?
21:35:21 <TrueBrain> did anyone track translations of images?
21:35:34 <TrueBrain> Intro screen they did, it seems
21:36:03 <TrueBrain> okay, in that case, lets do it .. location, eeuuuuhhhhhh
21:36:26 <TrueBrain> "history" is interesting
21:36:32 <TrueBrain> is that of the mediawiki file, or the source file? :P
21:36:42 <frosch123> haha, mediawiki has both :p
21:36:51 <TrueBrain> owh, that is how they solved that
21:37:03 <frosch123> when you press "view history" you get the .mediawiki history
21:37:10 <frosch123> the images are listed like in a category
21:37:39 <TrueBrain> okay, location: I would say they should be next to the image
21:37:47 <TrueBrain> that makes most sense from a GitHub perspective, I think
21:37:51 <frosch123> anyway, with lfs i prefered a separate folder for the "big" files, so I could set lfs for a directory, instead of listing random file extensions
21:37:56 <frosch123> but now that we do not use lfs...
21:38:35 <frosch123> ok, i'll put both .png and .mediawiki into the same path
21:38:54 <TrueBrain> lets see how that works out
21:40:08 <TrueBrain> will the .mediawiki always exist?
21:40:10 <TrueBrain> even if it is empty?
21:40:34 <TrueBrain> do we want that? :D
21:40:42 <TrueBrain> it does make a lot of things easier, I have to say
21:40:50 <TrueBrain> makes "File" folder a lot less special
21:41:05 <frosch123> well, you code the upload form :p
21:41:14 <frosch123> migration is only once
21:41:20 <TrueBrain> so let's do that :)
21:41:31 <TrueBrain> here I was hoping you would do the upload form :P :P
21:41:56 <frosch123> two work days left :)
21:42:03 <frosch123> then finish the migration
21:42:11 <frosch123> then pick up the leftovers
21:42:24 <TrueBrain> sounds like an excellent plan
22:10:14 <TrueBrain> right, time to deploy a new version :D
22:10:24 <TrueBrain> my short-list of shit-to-implement is getting short
22:10:29 <TrueBrain> "git commit and git push"
22:10:56 <TrueBrain> "creating pages in folders that don't exist"
22:11:09 <TrueBrain> nothing else is on my list or comes to mind .. :D
22:11:30 <TrueBrain> owh, and casing-check
22:11:33 <frosch123> link "rename folder" to "make an issue or pr"?
22:11:42 <frosch123> what? you forgot the casing check :(
22:11:50 <TrueBrain> not forget, delayed :P
22:12:30 <frosch123> same category is: protect first two path items :)
22:13:44 <TrueBrain> how does someone add a new language?
22:14:09 <TrueBrain> in that case I would like the same language folders in all namespaces
22:14:09 <frosch123> same for "i want to translate 'manual' into my language", "rename folder", "other mass edits"
22:14:12 <TrueBrain> with a .place-holder or what-ever
22:15:09 <TrueBrain> (as I believe you still cannot add folders in GitHub? Or does it auto-fix this these days?)
22:15:58 <frosch123> i am unsure about "rename page". i don't like redirects, so would prefer some script to rewrite all links, which would be issue/pr. but at the same time, people seem to mistype the titles of their new pages every second time
22:16:24 <TrueBrain> IF nothing links to your page, you can change the name
22:16:26 <TrueBrain> otherwise you cannot?
22:16:58 <frosch123> makes sense, just don't count links from Folder: :p
22:17:11 <TrueBrain> Folder isn't anything, funny enough :)
22:18:00 <frosch123> hmm. what is the .mediawiki called? "Intro screen.mediawiki" or "Intro screen.png.mediawiki"?
22:18:04 <frosch123> i assume the latter?
22:18:15 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
22:18:27 <supermop_Home> anyone have any experience with portable monitors?
22:18:29 <TrueBrain> see View Source link :)
22:20:35 <frosch123> i guess that will also fix Folder/File ?
22:21:13 <frosch123> hmm. it needs two history links though?
22:25:04 <TrueBrain> what do you mean, sorry?
22:25:36 <frosch123> one link to gh for .png, one for .png.mediawiki
22:25:46 <TrueBrain> yeah, I will solve that too, I have ideas for that
22:26:05 <TrueBrain> I think I for now add a link below the image: show history of image
22:30:44 <TrueBrain> internally it does EXACTLY the same :P
22:31:15 <TrueBrain> lol @ history link .. oops
22:32:55 <andythenorth> supermop_Home I have experience with reading kickstarters about them
22:33:09 <andythenorth> followed by reading about caveats, disappointments etc
22:33:26 <andythenorth> I also have experience using iPad as 2nd monitor
22:43:03 <supermop_Home> I thought about buying a tablet
22:43:46 <supermop_Home> makes sense for expected use-case (wfh while travelling or otherwise being somewhere other than home)
22:44:06 <supermop_Home> as can then use the tablet for whatever people use tablets for
22:44:58 <supermop_Home> i pretty much can't get anything done with one screen
22:47:14 <TrueBrain> right, history link fixed again .. that took some effort :D
22:48:16 <andythenorth> supermop_Home is it CAD stuff?
22:48:32 * andythenorth has been living in one screen for about 15 years
22:48:37 <supermop_Home> some photoshop and indesign
22:48:39 <andythenorth> used to have 2, but eh
22:49:13 <supermop_Home> and mostly remotely connected to my 2-monitor workstation at the empty office
22:49:41 <supermop_Home> so when connected with just one screen i have to constantly tab between them
22:50:20 <andythenorth> is remarkably better
22:50:32 <andythenorth> wish I'd done it years ago
22:52:33 <supermop_Home> how do you manage the room for such a thing?
22:56:24 <andythenorth> and the same weight
22:56:24 <TrueBrain> frosch123: reload-if-GitHub-changes works too, but not sure it is worth the effort to install that in your repo :P
22:56:56 <andythenorth> it's about 1cm too large to fit my current bike bag though
22:57:04 <andythenorth> or my kids' backpacks I borrow
22:57:17 <frosch123> TrueBrain: no, thanks :)
22:57:40 <supermop_Home> ive been using tiny vaios from 05 to 17 and surface book since then so i guess i have no feel for big laptops
22:57:51 <supermop_Home> literally have never had one
22:57:53 <TrueBrain> I have 11 things on my TODO .. most I will fix tomorrow I think :)
22:58:08 <TrueBrain> how is your migration going?
22:58:11 <TrueBrain> got through the User bla?
22:58:54 <andythenorth> I always had 'small' but not 'smallest' Apple laptops
22:59:05 <supermop_Home> i did have a 2010 13" mbp for work at one point though, and i did find it heavy
22:59:07 <andythenorth> and I stuck with that
22:59:27 <andythenorth> then I found an old one in my house, and noticed it was huge
22:59:35 <andythenorth> relative to current one, which is like a toy
23:00:56 <frosch123> TrueBrain: it's like horse. the todo list was almost empty last sunday and the sunday before. but during the week we always add stuff :)
23:01:35 <TrueBrain> well, truewiki is nearing feature-complete for the MvP, so hopefully that stabalizes your work too :P :D
23:01:37 <andythenorth> hmm do I really need a 2nd monitor? I don't actually do any work
23:01:42 <supermop_Home> the Lenovo seemed to have best reviews / spec for color acuity
23:02:12 <TrueBrain> memory footprint of truewiki is lower than I expected
23:02:34 <TrueBrain> which is nice :) Lot of memory is in the metadata cache :D
23:03:03 <TrueBrain> it takes ~2 seconds to sha256 all .mediawiki pages btw frosch123 :) I expected it would take longer :P
23:03:14 <TrueBrain> (invalidation works based on the sha256 result)
23:03:33 <supermop_Home> haha i could buy two for that much here andythenorth
23:03:55 <frosch123> can you already invalidate pages when their templates change?
23:04:14 <supermop_Home> leaving town Saturday, just hope it gets here by then
23:04:16 <andythenorth> supermop_Home yeah we took some decision somewhere that wrecked our exchange rates
23:04:19 <TrueBrain> changing en/- is a nightmare :P
23:04:28 <andythenorth> Macs gained £250 price rise
23:04:31 <TrueBrain> takes 20+ seconds before the metadata is calculated again :)
23:04:39 <TrueBrain> the recalculation is done in a separate process, non-blocking
23:04:41 <andythenorth> Bachmann diesel engines went from £85 -> £200
23:04:53 <andythenorth> Ford Transit Van went from £18k -> £28k
23:04:54 <TrueBrain> categories/translations are possibly wrong for that time, but update when it is ready
23:05:10 <TrueBrain> owh, and it is a queue .. so if someone updates en/- 20 times, it will takes 400 seconds, and block any other request
23:05:21 <andythenorth> oh yeah, freedom to trade as well, except with the EU
23:05:31 <supermop_Home> well all the money i was planning to waste on british train in the spring i wasted on other things
23:05:42 <TrueBrain> but .. I considered that better than blocking the user for 20+ seconds :D
23:05:44 <supermop_Home> mostly records, sneakers,
23:06:00 <andythenorth> keeping the economy going
23:06:26 <supermop_Home> wife works for the sneaker company
23:06:34 <supermop_Home> so i'm just paying her salary
23:07:50 <TrueBrain> 2.7k LoC for wikitexthtml and 1.7k for truewiki .. that is excluding wikitextparser ... I guess adding features increases the LoC quickly :D
23:08:00 <TrueBrain> but still, <5k LoC for a wiki ...
23:08:42 <supermop_Home> about 5-10 % of banks and shops have boarded up here
23:13:34 <andythenorth> supermop_Home they expecting trouble?
23:14:53 <supermop_Home> but its telling,, who boarded up
23:16:30 <supermop_Home> i have a bottle of champgne at the apartment that work sent me a while back..
23:16:48 <andythenorth> have you placed any bets?
23:16:51 <supermop_Home> i did not choose to put it in the fridge to chill this morning
23:17:02 <andythenorth> I don't know anybody here who would dare call it
23:17:24 <supermop_Home> rather, i chose to not put it in the fridge
23:17:44 <andythenorth> in my limited circle, the view here is that it's hard to conceive of Trump yielding power
23:18:20 <supermop_Home> also, trump did not win the vote last time...
23:19:28 <supermop_Home> so even as unpopular as he is, there are many legal, quasi legal, or just never tested means for him to be in office on Jan. 21
23:19:41 <supermop_Home> or to be out of office but still claiming it
23:20:22 <supermop_Home> and a small but loud minority of people who will listen to him
23:21:41 <andythenorth> litigation litigation litigation, until the opposition get ground down
23:22:04 <andythenorth> or he might just win a clear landslide in the colleges
23:22:23 <andythenorth> hmm has betting closed?
23:23:52 <supermop_Home> we don't have the same bookie culture here
23:24:47 <supermop_Home> ive been organizing dresser drawers to stay occupied
23:26:59 <supermop_Home> should go for a walk
23:27:39 <FLHerne> Some of the reports are correct, but several are false-positives or just incomprehensible nonsense
23:28:34 <FLHerne> It's true Python isn't easy to statically analyze, but it could do with a 'conservative' mode
23:34:44 <arikover> andythenorth: Thanks for the update 2.9.1! By the way, should I also submit a PR if I want to update the French translation for FIRS?
23:35:02 <andythenorth> yes, but FIRS development is less stable
23:35:43 <andythenorth> and remind me when you've done it ;)
23:36:44 <arikover> oh v4 is not merged to master yet?
23:37:47 <andythenorth> I might do that soon
23:38:21 <frosch123> TrueBrain: any opinion what to do with User: links? convert them to plain text?
23:39:09 <frosch123> anyway, down to 5k6 errors :)
23:42:31 <supermop_Home> helicopters out now
23:46:05 <arikover> andythenorth: "and remind me when you've done it ;)" <- will do!
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