IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-08-10
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01:48:00 <Gustavo6046> Ha, odd. The build works now. Same version 1.10.2, same clang, same arguments.
01:48:06 <Gustavo6046> Maybe it's because I didn't use libc++?
01:49:46 <Gustavo6046> Maybe it's because I built the latest version of LLVM overnight;.
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09:05:05 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl opened pull request #8291: Change: Use key names instead of characters in hotkey.cfg https://git.io/JJMXO
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09:48:26 <TrueBrain> funny patch _dp_ :)
09:52:12 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #8291: Change: Use key names instead of characters in hotkey.cfg https://git.io/JJMXO
10:16:13 <andythenorth> newgrf...replace ottd black background with tiles of a room? :P
10:16:52 <_dp_> I was thinking of replacing my room background with tiles of openttd xD
10:17:24 <TrueBrain> I was thinking about replacing the warmth in my house with coolness ..
10:32:34 <LordAro> do we care about those on the website?
10:32:46 <TrueBrain> change it during squashing?
10:33:01 <TrueBrain> and yes, ofc we care :)
10:33:02 <LordAro> saves me having to check the repo out on this computer :p
10:33:11 <TrueBrain> I can understand :)
10:33:14 <LordAro> also, the CI appears to be sad
10:33:29 <TrueBrain> bit of a broad definition: CI :D
10:33:53 <TrueBrain> hm, why did it not email me about this
10:35:35 <TrueBrain> seems AWS changed some permissions :)
10:35:46 <TrueBrain> "is not authorized to perform: ecs:ListTagsForResource on resource"
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10:41:44 <TrueBrain> weird, cannot really find why it would need that now
10:42:16 <LordAro> bleh, and the PR CI has failed due to a change in flake8
10:45:13 <TrueBrain> I have that too from time to time .. annoying if you are the one having to fix it .. but then again, most of the time it is a valid complaint ..
10:46:14 <TrueBrain> why oh why does it need to be able to list tags ... hmmmm
10:46:25 <TrueBrain> it is not that I mind
10:46:36 <TrueBrain> but I don't like that I cannot find WHY
10:47:48 <TrueBrain> also funny, I cannot bind that permission to a Service, yet the error tells me it is because it couldn't list the tags of a service ..
10:57:20 <andythenorth> OpenTTD 'needs' a complex market for buying vehicles
10:57:29 <andythenorth> with options to buy used, refurbished, on lease etc
10:58:13 <andythenorth> in fact we should let player design the vehicles
10:58:37 <andythenorth> offering body, traction package (engine/motors and crap) and paint scheme as variables
11:07:57 <TrueBrain> Fixed the issue for now LordAro
11:08:05 <TrueBrain> One can deploy again :)
11:09:18 <LordAro> i'm going to have to checkout the repo to properly fix the flake8 issue though
11:09:37 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sure, and you make the sprites with 2 pixels of variation for each combination
11:11:16 <TrueBrain> LordAro: it is an easy fix you can do via web too
11:11:43 <LordAro> TrueBrain: not in the same PR though
11:12:05 <LordAro> remote: GitHub found 1 vulnerability on OpenTTD/website's default branch (1 high). To find out more, visit:
11:12:28 <LordAro> could try updating jekyll, i guess
11:13:25 <TrueBrain> Impact for us is low, but yeah, and update would he appreciated
11:13:56 <TrueBrain> And that flake commit could just have been a new PR ofc ;)
11:14:13 <LordAro> well there's no chance i'm going to get a ruby/gem/godknowswhat set up working on MinGW, so i'll leave that for later
11:14:24 <LordAro> it could have, but then i'd have had to do rebasing and stuff
11:19:32 <TrueBrain> LordAro: you can rebase via web ;)
11:20:21 <andythenorth> game progression is the enemy of minimalism in the tech tree :P
11:21:59 <LordAro> TrueBrain: you can? since when?
11:23:27 <LordAro> 3.9 apparently uses 2.x
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11:31:34 <TrueBrain> LordAro: rebasing works for a long time via the web already. Gives a merge commit sometimes, not always. But you can squash that again. GitHub is pretty awesome :)
12:06:14 <andythenorth> the more I learn about industrial chemistry, the more it's insane that we don't make it circular, using solar or wind for the energy loss
12:07:56 <Wolf01> Then let's start teach this to kids with OTTD
12:24:05 <CornsMcGowan[m]> reminds me of bob
12:24:08 <CornsMcGowan[m]> bob's mods in factorio
12:24:17 <CornsMcGowan[m]> or angel's petrochem is probably what i'm thinking of
12:24:24 <CornsMcGowan[m]> or nuclearcraft in minecraft
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12:33:15 <CornsMcGowan[m]> b_jonas: is there a newgrf that modifies the opengrf graphics of parks and construction sites in town so that no square that's owned by the town can look as just an ordinary grass tile if I turn buildings transparent and turn off full detail?
12:33:36 <CornsMcGowan[m]> re this question: no there isn't, but citymania client and jgrpp client both have a zoning overlay that tells u where u can't build
12:33:46 <CornsMcGowan[m]> and by extension will highlight town buildings
12:35:55 <_dp_> it's a silly overlay though I find it much easier to just use land info
12:36:19 <_dp_> but parks really shouldn't disappear completely in transparent
12:36:33 <_dp_> as well as some indusries if that's still not fixed
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13:16:02 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Bertik23 opened issue #8292: Game cutting of savefile name after charecters with diacritics. https://git.io/JJMxx
13:19:20 <TrueBrain> sounds like a feature :)
16:57:48 <andythenorth> urgh tech tree power creep
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16:58:02 <andythenorth> the need for 'big progression' just leaves gaps
16:58:12 * andythenorth endless yak-shaving
17:01:16 <frosch123> andythenorth: i am disappoined. no engine is named "yak"
17:01:30 <andythenorth> missed opportunity
17:01:56 <andythenorth> most of them are called V style names like 'Rage' and 'Fury'
17:03:17 <andythenorth> eh, I do think the game misses a 'drive the train' mode though
17:03:23 <andythenorth> it has 'crash the train' mode
17:03:31 <andythenorth> but not "don't crash the train"
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17:21:52 <andythenorth> meh duplicate engines just because I want different paint schemes :D
17:22:07 <andythenorth> "but what is the gameplay rationale andythenorth"
17:22:16 <andythenorth> oh that ship sailed I guess
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18:21:25 <Gustavo6046> I made a train track with a buffer loop trains can get in to remain safe. They do not want to use it, though, and rather just lock each other. I probably did the path signaling wrong, but I don't know what! https://i.imgur.com/wPBtGPf.png
18:22:43 <supermop_Home_> this is a single track line?
18:22:51 <andythenorth> there's nothing that would cause them to go in there
18:22:56 <Gustavo6046> Yeah, although there are some parts it diverts into two.
18:22:57 <andythenorth> give them orders to go round a waypoint
18:23:04 <andythenorth> or....just use an escape depot :)
18:23:15 <andythenorth> the balloon track is realistic, but space inefficient
18:23:17 <Gustavo6046> I thought the path signal would help.
18:23:19 <Gustavo6046> But alright, thanks
18:23:35 <supermop_Home_> when the train gets to that signal, the pathfinder will see that loop as heading away from its destination
18:23:37 <andythenorth> escape depots are the most gameplay efficient way to handle station blocks
18:23:51 <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ yo also
18:25:45 <supermop_Home_> basically almost never put signals on single track
18:26:04 <supermop_Home_> only put them where you want a train to stop
18:26:27 <supermop_Home_> such as before the entry to a single track segment
18:26:34 <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ I played a game with the railfreight and sector liveries
18:26:58 <andythenorth> TL;DR Railfreight red works great; Sector liveries the vinyl sector logo is just not working in pixels
18:30:45 <Gustavo6046> This is really cool
18:31:11 <Gustavo6046> I made two trains as "valves" to try and alleviate this situation, but to little avail.
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18:31:18 <Gustavo6046> Valves, drains, whichever is more accu
18:31:26 <Gustavo6046> not accurate... you get the point
18:31:56 <Gustavo6046> Anyway, what is better, a far but slowish delivery, or a near but fast delivery?
18:34:10 <b_jonas> Gustavo6046: some types of cargo are more perishable than others, eg. for passengers you get much less value if the journey takes too long time, for oil it matters much less. look at the in-game cargo income chart and the rules at https://wiki.openttd.org/Cargo_income
18:34:50 <_dp_> Gustavo6046, read/watch how signals work, your signaling makes no sense whatsoever
18:35:34 <b_jonas> but you also have to take into account how much you pay for vehicle maintenance and amortization
18:35:45 <Gustavo6046> _dp_: signals tend to work on Y junctions. This is not an Y junction. It's a tirangle junction of sorts.
18:36:28 <_dp_> signals work everywhere when you use them correctly :p
18:47:04 <b_jonas> yes, that signaling can definitely deadlock of two trains come in from opposite ends. this only works if you have only one train on the network, in which case you don't need any signals.
18:48:09 <b_jonas> and note that depots have a built-in signal for trains that want to leave
18:49:01 <andythenorth> how many trains should I include?
18:50:22 <supermop_Home_> b_jonas there is no built in signal
18:50:52 <supermop_Home_> trains reversing will just not reverse until they can reserve a path,
18:51:13 <supermop_Home_> so if a station is at the end of a line, you can do without the signal
18:52:22 <supermop_Home_> but if the line continues and there is no signal, the train will reserve the track beyond the station and block other trains from using it
18:54:45 <supermop_Home_> basically never put a signal on a single line, except where it is like a branch or siding rejoining a mainline
18:54:54 <b_jonas> supermop_Home_: I said leaving a depot
18:55:47 <supermop_Home_> where only one train will operate at a time
18:56:31 <b_jonas> yes, but a train will leave the depot only if it can reserve the block right outside the depot or a path to the next path signal
18:56:53 <b_jonas> so another train is allowed to pass in front of a depot
18:57:17 <supermop_Home_> Gustavo6046 instead of a loop at your station, two platforms might work better
18:57:55 <supermop_Home_> that way the oncoming train waits at the station loading, and out of the way for the first train to leave
18:58:50 <TrueBrain> Wait, this channel can give support to players? This is not good .. what happened?!
18:59:26 <TrueBrain> (Emphasis on 'can' btw)
19:00:32 <andythenorth> isn't reddit for that?
19:00:41 <nielsm> yeah the main thing to ask yourself when learning how to make signals is asking the question, "what happens if a train needs to stop at this signal, and then another train approaches"
19:00:44 * andythenorth needs support, pls send
19:02:24 <supermop_Home_> andythenorth you need design strategy consultancy
19:02:44 <andythenorth> I am having client restraint issues
19:02:46 <andythenorth> where I am the client
19:02:52 <supermop_Home_> i think you will find my fee very reasonable at 250 EUR/hr
19:03:27 <andythenorth> could we barter?
19:04:32 <supermop_Home_> i'll probably need some kind of penalty clause in there for every bad feature you insist on adding?
19:04:49 <supermop_Home_> speaking of barter i need to get some lunch
19:05:11 <andythenorth> where is peter when we need him?
19:06:20 <Gustavo6046> Is there an option to have a vehicle maintain at the nearest depot rather than a set one?
19:06:48 <Gustavo6046> You could use Voronoi to cache the "nearest depot" at a tile.
19:06:56 <Gustavo6046> Tile as in road/track/etc, not all tiles.
19:07:44 * andythenorth browsed forums briefly
19:07:51 <andythenorth> I think choosing to quit was a good choice
19:08:48 <Gustavo6046> I'm having lunch now
19:08:51 <Gustavo6046> I mean I just got
19:09:01 <Gustavo6046> I am also wretching in hunger lol
19:09:28 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: that bad?
19:10:28 <b_jonas> Gustavo6046: vehicles usually choose a nearby depot automatically, you rarely need to override that
19:10:56 <b_jonas> I don't think I ever put depots in the orders of vehicles, I just build enough depots, and tracks to them for trains
19:11:09 <Gustavo6046> b_jonas: I usually put them in orders
19:11:16 <Gustavo6046> "maintain at X depot"
19:11:20 <andythenorth> TrueBrain just very uninspiring
19:11:30 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: so nothing new ;)
19:11:33 <Gustavo6046> I don't think they can seek maintenance on their own
19:11:38 <andythenorth> I guess I find it sad because forums were really what got me into modding ottd :)
19:12:02 <b_jonas> you could put them into orders, it might sometimes work better, but you have to pay attention then
19:12:03 <andythenorth> but I think forums are ultimately unhealthy mode of interaction
19:12:12 <b_jonas> I usually don't take the time so far, but I should probably start
19:12:28 <b_jonas> not the specific depot orders, but the generic service orders maybe
19:14:16 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: most of the Internet sadly enough is :(
19:14:31 <Gustavo6046> I mean general ones
19:14:39 <Gustavo6046> I don't think there are service orders that don't take a specific depot.
19:14:52 <b_jonas> it's called "Go to nearest depot". I never used it yet
19:15:03 <b_jonas> I just let trains go to depots whenever they feel like
19:15:05 <Gustavo6046> "Nearest depot", yeah, saw on that image.
19:15:12 <TrueBrain> Gustavo6046: you are not stupid; OpenTTD is rather complex, with many possible options :)
19:15:12 <Gustavo6046> You never used it? Rookie. I never *saw* it!
19:15:36 <Gustavo6046> b_jonas: never noticed that they tend to feel like breaking and hiccuping fume more than servicing?
19:15:52 <Gustavo6046> I guess it's like homework. Everyone would be better with it, but nobody wants to do it.
19:16:23 <b_jonas> I do know that trains are often stupid and pick the wrong depot, but I don't think I can improve on that by orders, only by placing the depots and tracks and signals well
19:17:32 <b_jonas> many people also play with the option for trains never breaking, in which case they only need to go to the depots when you modify something about them
19:34:21 <Gustavo6046> Should I also add signals near stations?
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19:45:02 <b_jonas> Gustavo6046: yes, unless the station has only one track inside and one track to exit, in which case add the signal to the junction where that track merges to the mainline
19:45:33 <b_jonas> but the latter works only for stations with very small traffic
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19:51:46 <b_jonas> although some of the designs shown there are old and no longer really needed with path signals
20:00:35 <Gustavo6046> Oh, also, I cannot autoreplace my buses because they are of obsoleted models. I want to autoupgrade them.
20:05:36 <nielsm> open the vehicle list, then use the Manage button in the lower right
20:06:51 <andythenorth> I 'need' 2 almost identical-looking engines for Horse
20:06:54 <andythenorth> that will be confusing
20:07:20 <frosch123> you already have tons of identical looking wagons, what's the problem?
20:07:43 <frosch123> also, consider the original sh 30/40 :)
20:07:55 <andythenorth> let's keep going on this rationale :D
20:08:05 <andythenorth> also there's "simplified mode" available
20:08:20 <andythenorth> which nobody will use, but doubles my checking when I change the tech tree :D
20:09:59 <frosch123> looks like the trick of the original engines is to use the same sprites every second generation
20:10:15 <frosch123> assuming you already forgot what the old vehicles looked like
20:12:01 <frosch123> in original temperate there are 20 engines. 3 have identical sprites, and 1 has a trivial recoloring (today you would say 1cc/2cc swapped)
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21:39:34 <_dp_> hmm, well, it didn't take long for first desyncs to happen...
21:40:09 <Eddi|zuHause> that's good, because they will be easier to reproduce? :p
21:40:57 <_dp_> doesn't seem so unfortunately :(
21:41:17 <_dp_> I kinda hunted down all the easier ones already
21:45:03 <TrueBrain> So this should be more enjoyable not?
21:53:15 <_dp_> it aint that fun when you have no leads :(
21:54:52 <_dp_> but at least I can write off known desyncs now
21:55:29 <_dp_> also (wrong company in DoCommand) is still a thing apparently
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22:07:01 <_dp_> oh, I think I know what that may be
22:07:22 <_dp_> if client spectates immediately after sending the command
22:08:01 <_dp_> command gets queued by spectate is processed instantly so it gets ahead
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22:14:12 <_dp_> doesn't explain wrong company on join though
22:30:54 <_dp_> hm, it looks like some joins are happening when client actually leaves the game
22:44:05 <b_jonas> ah, the other types of join, not train line joins
22:44:49 <_dp_> I can repro it on citymania but that's more like my bug so no idea why is it happening on reddit as well
23:18:59 <b_jonas> I downloaded some "recent" openttdcoop public server games and looking at one right now. these can probably give me some ideas for my own future games.
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