IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-08-09
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02:44:07 <Gustavo6046> Receiving any news crashes the game.
02:44:19 <Gustavo6046> Both the version in the AUR and the latest version in git.
02:44:31 <Gustavo6046> I built using clang. Tested with -Ofast -march=native -flto.
02:44:41 <Gustavo6046> Haven't tested without march yet
02:44:58 <Gustavo6046> I also don't think it was libc++, as iirc previous builds had libstdc++.
02:46:33 <Gustavo6046> With news I mean, crashing two trains causes a game crash, because of the newspaper thing.
02:46:37 <Gustavo6046> I have no idea why that is either.
02:58:16 <Gustavo6046> am I forgetting something?
03:04:15 <Gustavo6046> signal SIGILL: illegal instruction operand
03:53:44 <Eddi|zuHause> stack trace isn't of much use without symbols
03:54:24 <Eddi|zuHause> oh right, there are symbols
03:54:47 <Eddi|zuHause> looks like it crashed in the crash handler?
03:55:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't make a lot of sense
03:55:56 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, "illegal instruction" sounds more like a compiler bug
04:31:27 <Gustavo6046> It did work when built with gcc and -g
04:31:41 <Gustavo6046> I'll try gcc and -Ofast -march=native (and -flto in the linker)
04:41:39 <Gustavo6046> It works with that too
04:41:52 <Gustavo6046> Eddi|zuHause: it seems the issue is clang, or maybe one of its optimizations, or maybe libc++.
08:30:17 <LordAro> Gustavo6046: sounds very like a bug that we already fixed
08:32:35 <LordAro> though i'm thinking of #8176, which is in 1.10.2
08:32:55 <LordAro> possible clang is exploiting some undefined behaviour somewhere
08:33:06 <LordAro> but illegal instruction after using -march=native is ...suspicious
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11:26:03 <TrueBrain> thread 'main' panicked at 'attempt to subtract with overflow', src/python.rs:283:21 <- right, and this is why I called it an unsigned, as you can overflow .. lolz @ Rust .. it is cute :)
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11:31:55 <nielsm> hmm, something that's been on my mind recently
11:32:27 <nielsm> if a NewGRF is licensed under a CC-NoDerivatives license, can it be featured in a gameplay video?
11:32:45 <TrueBrain> doesn't fair use come into play there?
11:33:03 <nielsm> does displaying extracts of the graphics in the NewGRF together with other graphics from other sources, in a player-controlled form, constitute a derivative work?
11:33:11 <nielsm> fair use doesn't exist everywhere in the world
11:33:30 <TrueBrain> you see this with normal games ofc, and that lets play can exist on youtube
11:33:50 <nielsm> danish law does not have that concept, it has exceptions for review, criticism and satire
11:35:41 <nielsm> yes and then you have some companies like nintendo who strongly claim their right to any expression of the game content, and will force any videos of their games being played to be monetised to their end and nothing to the video creator
11:36:48 <nielsm> and similar, if you apply a CC-NonCommercial license, I think that also disallows anyone from doing monetised videos/streams featuring the content
11:42:46 <nielsm> I did scour it just now
11:42:53 <michi_cc> "It depends. Go away."
11:52:14 <andythenorth> "Many things only get decided in case law. Try it, see what happens."
11:52:20 <andythenorth> Law isn't an algorithm.
11:52:37 <andythenorth> Programmers often struggle with law, they confuse it with a spec.
11:53:03 <andythenorth> They are both codes, but very different in their runtimes.
11:53:08 <nielsm> I'm drafting a post on it for the licensing FAQ thread on the forum
11:57:09 <andythenorth> I suspect IRL the whole thing is a no-op
11:57:30 <andythenorth> might be able to use it to get channels de-monetised
11:58:49 <nielsm> yeah apparently there are trolls out there who will use any excuse to try to get others' content taken down or demonetised
11:59:03 <nielsm> even when there's nothing in it for them bu "lulz"
12:05:45 <Samu> i am unable to install vcpkg
12:06:09 <Samu> CMake projects should use: "-DCMAKE_TOOLCHAIN_FILE=D:/OpenTTD/vcpkg/scripts/buildsystems/vcpkg.cmake"
12:09:52 <nielsm> I didn't need to configure that myself, I just ran the "vcpkg integrate" command (or whatever it's called)
12:10:04 <Samu> nevermind, it suddenly started working
12:16:14 <Samu> building openttd is so fast now
12:21:50 <Samu> 38 seconds release build
12:27:12 <Samu> my good old system was having some issues with the screen going black
12:27:33 <Samu> i thought I had that sorted out
12:29:22 <Samu> im also surprised my windows license is still valid
12:30:18 <Samu> it was bound to a microsoft account, and it detected hardware upgrade or so, and it transferred the license from my old to this
12:30:55 <Samu> very happy I didn't have to waste €100 for windows
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14:46:20 <Samu> there is a "not really a bug" with the start_tile and end_tile being assigned to the wrong tiles
14:46:40 <Samu> the end_tile is actually the start tile for the case of aqueduct
14:47:09 <Samu> but it doesn't break functionality
14:52:01 <Samu> instead of DoCommandP(tile, GetOtherAqueductEnd(tile),
14:52:11 <Samu> should be DoCommandP(GetOtherAqueductEnd(tile), tile,
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15:50:20 <b_jonas> do trains load and unload at the same speed? or do they load slower than unload? what determines this?\
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15:50:46 <b_jonas> I know they load/unload much smaller if the station is shorter than the train
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16:28:09 <b_jonas> then the steel loading station was more congested than the unloading probably because the tracks around it were worse because there's less space
16:28:22 <b_jonas> that was before the rebuild that is
16:30:23 <glx> well loading wagons may be slower than unloading if they have different types and specs
16:36:14 <b_jonas> In FIRS, if I wanted to transport goods to a port but there are also houses close to the port, is there some way to make sure that the goods go to the port (which produces output) rather than to the houses?
16:36:38 <b_jonas> this doesn't seem to be a problem in this game, where I'm transporting to only one port, which is far enough from towns
16:36:46 <b_jonas> but it could come up in other games
16:37:15 <glx> no you can't really decide, the only way is to have no houses in the station catching area
16:37:36 <b_jonas> same question if I transport food or passengers and want it to go to the hotel (which produces passengers) instead of a general store or houses
16:50:46 <frosch123> i would claim, if there is an industry, all cargo goes to it
16:50:59 <frosch123> the town is always the last one to consume it, when noone else wants it
16:51:21 <andythenorth> I have never seen houses parasitically consume cargo
16:51:27 <andythenorth> but the code will know :)
16:51:43 <andythenorth> really the game is best played without towns, they just get in the way :)
16:54:10 <b_jonas> andythenorth: sometimes it's good without towns, like in this game, but in some games I want a large passenger network, and they can bring money
16:58:36 <_dp_> yeah, it should always go to the industry first
17:27:40 <glx> someone corrupted memory somewhere ?
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17:28:23 <glx> or it is just a bug in your newgrf
17:28:28 <_dp_> nah, just banging my head on 32bpp blitter
17:29:53 <_dp_> trying to make it do recolors for 32bpp sprites
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18:54:41 <Eddi|zuHause> can't we have that also in 8bpp? we have a "shadow" recolouring that makes everything a bit darker, we just need variants of that?
18:56:40 <Samu> @calc 29 ^ (15 | 16) ^ 3
18:56:40 <DorpsGek> Samu: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
19:01:32 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, in 8bpp it already works fine with just recolor sprites, it's 32bpp that needs variants
19:02:11 <_dp_> though I think I found an interesting hack for 32bpp as well
19:04:21 <Samu> the answer i was looking was 1
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19:18:27 <Samu> Need help: trying to simplify this line: end_tileh_aqueduct = SlopeWithOneCornerRaised(OppositeCorner(GetHighestSlopeCorner((end_tileh_aqueduct ^ (SLOPE_ELEVATED | SLOPE_STEEP)) ^ start_tileh_aqueduct)));
19:19:29 <Samu> i want the result to be the slope that is sent to the terraform command
19:20:12 <Samu> to make end_tile the complement of the start_tile, both iclined but in opposite directions
19:21:52 <Samu> this one works when end_tile is not steep: end_tileh_aqueduct = ComplementSlope(start_tileh_aqueduct) ^ end_tileh_aqueduct;
19:43:46 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #8287: Backport things for 1.10.3 release https://git.io/JJVGY
19:44:09 <LordAro> frosch123: if you don't mind...
19:45:06 <LordAro> i tried to re-backport languages, but the script kept trying to remove a load of belarusian, so i didn't bother
19:49:01 <frosch123> isn't everyone "artic code vault contributor" now?
19:49:07 <frosch123> why is there a badge?
19:53:41 <LordAro> frosch123: new people aren't, presumably
19:56:27 <LordAro> someone else feel like drafting a news post?
20:00:57 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] mbuckie opened issue #8290: Game Crashed while attempting to clone a train in one depot while train is in another depot https://git.io/JJMmI
20:01:56 <Wolf01> Ready for a short horror story? "I felt like a shiver along my spine, that is OTTD 1.10.3 coming like an unexpected train"
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20:35:07 <andythenorth> designing the last generation of trains is the hardest :P
20:36:14 <andythenorth> it's the most tangled up with IRL, cos it gets introduced around 2020
20:36:15 <frosch123> easy solution, have infinite many generations
20:36:21 <andythenorth> generative pixels?
20:36:30 <andythenorth> infinite hotel problem?
20:36:47 <andythenorth> infinite hotel problem is quite nice
20:36:59 <andythenorth> child #1 loves maths and infinity stuff
20:38:01 <frosch123> it's all nice and fun, until you arrive at axiom of choice or well-ordering theorem
20:38:44 <andythenorth> if you need to sort the guests in the infinite hotel by order of age
20:38:46 <nielsm> see that's where we should have GS able to generate vehicle models dynamically
20:38:47 <andythenorth> it should be possible
20:38:54 <andythenorth> but it might take infinitely long
20:39:04 <andythenorth> unless you can do it infinitely quickly
20:39:35 <andythenorth> anyway, IRL causes trouble
20:39:46 <andythenorth> and the previous generation has already topped out some of the stats
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20:40:41 <nielsm> I recently read some railway nerds claiming that 230 km/h is the new 160 km/h
20:40:57 <nielsm> "you may as well build 230 km/h track the added cost is so little"
20:41:11 <frosch123> maybe the swapped the numbers :p
20:41:42 <frosch123> db considered deprecating all trains > 200km/h, and make 160 the normal speed
20:44:47 <nielsm> some near future trains could very well be letting freight cars run at what's currently considered high-speed passenger speeds, and that's when the high-speed passenger would need to move to maglev to have further gains in speed
20:45:45 <nielsm> and yes I just told andy he needs to draw maglev trains
20:46:05 <frosch123> freight trains are pretty fast when moving. the problem is that they are stopped most of the time
20:46:16 <b_jonas> if only our railway network was maintained well enough that trains didn't constantly have to slow down for bad tracks
20:47:31 <frosch123> @topic set 1 1.10.3
20:47:31 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.10.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (source: github, translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only"
20:48:21 <andythenorth> maybe some more freight EMUs and stuff
20:48:24 <andythenorth> faster and so on
20:48:49 <nielsm> self-propelled container flatcars? yeah that could work
20:49:11 <nielsm> except for if they're electrified, it wouldn't work with overhead wires
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21:21:20 <b_jonas> is there some reason why I can't build a new graphics of station under a train if there's already a station in that square and the rail track is the same too? some trick that a newgrf could play with stations perhaps?
21:26:06 <b_jonas> I often want to delay prettifying the stations until after I've built everything else and the trains are already let in
21:31:25 <FLHerne> b_jonas: That annoys me too sometimes
21:41:12 <frosch123> that's just traditional behaviour
21:41:28 <frosch123> originally you could not do anything with tiles, when there was a vehicle on them
21:41:42 <frosch123> over times many restrictions were removed, but apparently not here
21:41:43 <b_jonas> yes, I know, and openttd improved that in a lot of cases
21:41:48 <frosch123> it has nothing to do with newgrfs
21:42:19 <b_jonas> also I wish I could reserve a tile under a bridge so that towns can't build under it if I'm planning to build rail tracks there
21:42:39 <frosch123> does purchase land not work?
21:42:47 <b_jonas> frosch123: sure, but I mean maybe newgrfs can have station tiles that differ in more ways than the rail track and cosmetic differences
21:43:03 <b_jonas> in which case that's why the interface wouldn't allow replacing the station
21:43:06 <b_jonas> frosch123: it doesn't work
21:43:27 <b_jonas> building an unused railway track does work
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21:43:46 <b_jonas> so does purchasing adjacent land so that the town can't reach it
21:45:35 <frosch123> hmm, i think the intenion was to disallow building bridges over owned land, to not restrict what can later be built on the owned land
21:45:58 <frosch123> i guess it turned out to be symmetric, to also not allow owned land under bridges
21:46:15 <b_jonas> but this is a bridge that I own
21:46:41 <b_jonas> and I can build a bridge over my own purchased land already, the purchase just disappears
21:50:39 <frosch123> that's just an implication of other rules :)
21:51:38 <frosch123> objects have two rules: do not allow bridges above them. auto-remove the owned land when needed for owner's construction
21:52:14 <frosch123> rules are simple. just the implications may be surprising :)
21:52:44 <b_jonas> another minor thing that bothers me about the interface is when I'm about to place or modify or remove a signal, the interface highlights the square where I'm about to do that, but it doesn't highlight which of the two diagonal tracks I'm about to affect. I think I misclick a lot with diagonal signals because of this.
21:53:13 <b_jonas> it doesn't even work if there's only one diagonal track in the square and I'm clicking on the other half of the square
21:53:45 <frosch123> doesn't remove always remove both?
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21:54:21 <b_jonas> remove also requires aiming the same way
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22:24:31 <b_jonas> oh, another minor thing that bothers me in the interface
22:25:18 <b_jonas> is there a newgrf that modifies the opengrf graphics of parks and construction sites in town so that no square that's owned by the town can look as just an ordinary grass tile if I turn buildings transparent and turn off full detail?
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22:41:41 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8290: Game Crashed while attempting to clone a train in one depot while train is in another depot https://git.io/JJMmI
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23:00:04 <b_jonas> I also wish I could convert a railway station tile to a different graphics railway station tile when the town doesn't allow me to construct new station tiles
23:12:36 <_dp_> 1.10.3 is at the bottom of the server list again :(
23:14:50 <_dp_> lol, wtf, someone is running 9 1.3.0 servers xD
23:14:56 <b_jonas> oops... it's 2056 and the X2001 monorail engine is no longer manufactured. I have a lot of cargo monorail stuff. now I wonder if I should upgrade them to maglev, or use the double engine with passenger capacity.
23:28:11 <b_jonas> I'll probably have to upgrade everything to monorail eventually, but needn't do it all at once. should probably start with the large north mining line.
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