IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-06-14
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00:09:07 <TrueBrain> colors are wrong btw; haven't loaded the palette yet
00:18:04 <TrueBrain> Let's see if I can get better images .. but not today :)
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00:40:08 <glx> well the colors don't help
00:43:09 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8218: Add: [CMake] Use GNUInstallDirs to allow install paths customisation https://git.io/JfHu1
00:43:44 <andythenorth> the ghosts remind me of Snapper
00:44:24 <andythenorth> bottom row is ghosts
00:45:43 <andythenorth> I recognise the troll face
00:45:53 <andythenorth> but I can't remember where from, very annoying :x
00:48:13 <_dp_> my first though was lode runner but looks more like simcity or smth
00:48:47 <Eddi|zuHause> can't seem to extract the raw image to load it into an editor
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02:10:11 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8218: Add: [CMake] Use GNUInstallDirs to allow install paths customisation https://git.io/JfQC2
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02:43:38 <b_jonas> this might be a stupid question, but besides TTD and Railroad Tycoon 2, what other Chris Sawyer game has an open-source game based on it?
02:44:01 <b_jonas> (yes, I know that open railroad tycoon 2 doesn't have a free graphics set)
02:56:19 <b_jonas> Also, can you recommend me NewGRF that has nice high resolution graphics for varied station tiles and for vacuum trains?
03:04:11 <dwfreed> b_jonas: there's an OpenRCT too, iirc
03:06:18 <dwfreed> perhaps that's what you were referring to, because Chris Sawyer didn't make Railroad Tycoon 2 (which does exist)
03:07:41 <b_jonas> but then what is OpenRCT2 ?
03:08:20 <dwfreed> OpenRCT2 is to RollerCoaster Tycoon 2 as OpenTTD is to TTD
03:09:59 <b_jonas> so there's both OpenRCT and OpenRCT2? that's confusing, thanks
03:10:19 <dwfreed> sorry, I was wrong, and OpenRCT2 was what I was thinking of
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03:27:17 <b_jonas> oh, I can filter for the extrazoom tag to find high res graphics
03:37:25 <b_jonas> I downloaded this CZTR set
03:37:33 <b_jonas> I'll see later whether I like it
03:43:27 <b_jonas> wait, since when can we have more than four rail types? yes, I know, I stopped playing this game ages ago
03:47:16 <b_jonas> how do I activate a base graphics set that I downloaded? they don't appear in the NewGRF settings
03:52:02 <b_jonas> ah, it's in the "Game options" dialog
04:43:21 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Nik-mmzd commented on pull request #8218: Add: [CMake] Use GNUInstallDirs to allow install paths customisation https://git.io/JfQuD
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06:34:30 <supermop_Home> did large logo class 66s exist?
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08:49:43 <andythenorth> urgh, Iron Horse compile is sooooo slow
08:54:13 <andythenorth> hmm grfcodec -n is 40% slower than without -n
08:54:17 <andythenorth> and the grf is 3MB bigger
08:58:53 <dwfreed> andythenorth: what does -n do?
08:59:23 <andythenorth> "Try both compression algorithms and choose the most efficient"
08:59:38 <andythenorth> it's expected that it's slower
08:59:48 <dwfreed> but not expected that it's bigger
08:59:50 <andythenorth> whether it should be larger depends on definition of 'efficient'
09:00:08 <andythenorth> I don't know if it's optimising write time, file size or read time
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10:12:42 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8221: No error message subtitle for if no bridge types available for target length < max bridge length https://git.io/JfQrI
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11:01:50 <TrueBrain> not the same spritemap as yesterday
11:14:54 <TrueBrain> no ghosts andythenorth , I am sorry :)
11:19:16 <TrueBrain> I wonder if I can load bomberman now ...
11:21:37 <TrueBrain> no, Bomberman uses a layout I haven't implemented yet, bah
11:22:23 <andythenorth> you reimplementing MAME?
11:48:00 <Eddi|zuHause> that properly decoded image makes it sorta recognizable :)
11:48:37 <TrueBrain> if you know how to read tilemaps, yes :)
11:50:40 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i've never played that game
11:53:26 <TrueBrain> me neither, not really anyway
11:53:31 <TrueBrain> just really curious how they did it :)
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12:53:57 <b_jonas> I wish cost build estimates would work while paused
12:55:44 <frosch123> that sounds like a 2 line change if it doesnt
12:57:06 <b_jonas> frosch123: it might be slightly more than two lines. cost estimate doesn't work when you try to estimate something you can't build, and you can't build while paused
12:57:27 <frosch123> there is a setting to allow building while paused
12:57:56 <b_jonas> I might actually turn that on
12:58:16 <andythenorth> also industry funding cost estimate
12:58:26 <andythenorth> should be shown in fund menu
12:58:56 <b_jonas> Is there a NewGRF whose only effect is to lower the cost of reserving land so it's not more expensive than building railways?
12:59:42 <frosch123> try the basecost mod grf
12:59:56 <frosch123> there are about a dozen of those, not sure which is the best
13:00:15 <frosch123> but there is one which allows adjusting all costs via grf paramters
13:00:43 <Wolf01> It's always funny when "find all references" doesn't work at all... also "search in files" doesn't work at all
13:01:35 <Wolf01> Also cmake menu gets disabled after a while
13:03:26 <frosch123> b_jonas: my estimate was factor 2 off
13:03:30 <frosch123> it's a one line change
13:07:46 <b_jonas> frosch123: nice! thank you
13:07:57 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 opened pull request #8222: Change: Allow command cost-estimation while paused. https://git.io/JfQih
13:08:03 <b_jonas> there was somewhere on the wiki that explains how the implicit signals of railway stations work. where is that?
13:09:15 <frosch123> no idea whether there are explainations or just examples
13:10:33 <b_jonas> I don't mean a general explanation of signals, but how the ones built into statoins work
13:10:56 <frosch123> i guess the answer is, there are none
13:11:17 <frosch123> path reservations end at signals, but they do not end at stations, so there are none
13:11:41 <b_jonas> I might be misremembering something then
13:13:55 <LordAro> it's a common misconception
13:20:50 <Wolf01> VS2017 freezed by searching for a function in code... good.
13:21:07 <Wolf01> I won't get anything done even today.
13:21:37 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8222: Change: Allow command cost-estimation while paused. https://git.io/JfQPY
13:21:55 <argoneus> pbs feels like such cheating
13:22:07 <argoneus> no matter how huge the station is just plop a signal in there and it will fix itself
13:22:20 <argoneus> and it even works better than block signals
13:23:54 <andythenorth> it's not mandatory
13:24:05 <argoneus> it kinda is for some designs apparently
13:24:12 <argoneus> like stations where trains can either go through or turn around
13:24:19 <argoneus> with block signals wiki says the trains can get locked
13:24:21 <andythenorth> I think it's one of the best things ever added to OpenTTD
13:24:32 <andythenorth> many 'improvements' aren't
13:24:36 <andythenorth> but PBS is .... rad
13:24:51 <argoneus> it just makes me wonder if there's any actual use for block signals
13:24:57 <argoneus> other than micro optimizing prioritization
13:25:01 <EER> PBS is pretty great, although I sometimes miss the more predictable nature of presignals :)
13:25:48 <Wolf01> <argoneus> no matter how huge the station is just plop a signal in there and it will fix itself <- it feels like that but it really isn't, try it with a lot of traffic and you get back to presignals in no time
13:27:33 <argoneus> is there a station usecase where block signals are better?
13:36:14 <argoneus> then why would you use presignals
13:36:35 <Wolf01> Because the same is valid for pbs
13:40:40 <Wolf01> Because every usecase has its own logic, there isn't one valid for everything
13:40:49 <argoneus> what is the usecase for block panels
13:41:00 <andythenorth> they just got added
13:41:04 <andythenorth> mostly the game isn't designed
13:41:09 <andythenorth> it's just programmed
13:41:24 <andythenorth> most if it is 'because I can'
13:41:54 <michi_cc> The usecase for block signals is loading old savegames.
13:42:14 <argoneus> so I can use them if they look pretty but that's about it
13:42:26 <argoneus> and for some uses like stations where trains enter/exit on both sides they're detrimental
13:42:32 <argoneus> because they can lead to deadlocks
13:45:32 <LordAro> they're simpler computationally
13:45:44 <LordAro> not that you'd ever get close to it making a difference
13:46:15 <frosch123> i thought they are more expensive?
13:46:58 <michi_cc> Path signals are only computational more expensive in one single case. That case is waiting at a red signal.
13:48:18 <frosch123> and at junctions there are like half as many pbs signals than there would be normal ones
13:49:12 <michi_cc> In the junction itself pbs signals are even a lot more efficient than block signals.
13:50:04 <michi_cc> With pbs, the pathfinder will compute the path through the junctions just once, will with block signals, the pathfinder will be called for each single tile with a switch.
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14:12:44 <b_jonas> stupid city, boxes itself in completely so it can't build
14:22:48 <argoneus> what does it mean if GL landscape ticks times are a bit higher?
14:49:24 <argoneus> do towns ever become cities?
14:49:41 <nielsm> city is a status decided when the town is created
14:49:51 <nielsm> and just means it grows faster
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15:09:33 <b_jonas> right, that was a hidden luck mechanic in TTD, so you had to try to take passengers into towns to see which one grows fast
15:09:54 <b_jonas> OpenTTD makes it easier by revealing which ones are cities, and then you can just develop those and buy land for a station in them early
15:12:25 <nielsm> hmm it could be perhaps that the "city" status should have an additional bit, whether it has been revealed or not
15:12:44 <nielsm> or maybe not show it for towns smaller than 1000 pop or such
15:20:29 <frosch123> pretty sure ttd did not have that mechanic
15:26:02 <argoneus> now I'm curious about one more thing
15:26:13 <argoneus> in FIRS arctic there's hotels which require food, but cities also require food for growth
15:26:22 <argoneus> what happens if I deliver to both at the same time
15:26:24 <argoneus> does it get split or
15:26:37 <frosch123> no, it all goes to the town
15:26:48 <argoneus> so the hotel doesn't get anything/
15:26:51 <frosch123> the industry is only to make acceptance more robust
15:27:00 <frosch123> argoneus: it's like taxes
15:27:09 <nielsm> the town food requirement is just that food is unloaded and paid for at a station within the town bounds
15:27:37 <argoneus> doesn't that mean it goes to the hotel then?
15:27:41 <argoneus> or is the hotel part of the city basicall
15:27:54 <nielsm> which is also why water towers in deserts are industries
15:28:06 <argoneus> so it's just a quality of life thing
15:28:28 <nielsm> yes the hotel gets it as cargo it can use for industry purposes, and it counts as food delivery for the town at the same time
15:29:57 <argoneus> so the hotel supplying passengers
15:30:01 <argoneus> is the same as the city supplying them
15:30:54 <nielsm> well it doesn't count towards the town passenger production
15:31:05 <nielsm> that only counts production from town buildings
15:31:39 <argoneus> im kind of confused what the hotels are for then
15:33:41 <argoneus> oh wait I think I get it now
15:33:46 <argoneus> the town buildings each produce some passengers
15:33:57 <argoneus> but so does the hotel so for convenience it's like a super-town-building
15:34:03 <argoneus> so I either slap my station in the city or near the hotel
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16:21:16 <argoneus> is there a way to naturally space out passenger trains
16:21:22 <argoneus> without timetabling because that never really works for me
16:35:39 <frosch123> longer distances between signals
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16:55:11 <b_jonas> also full load at the largest stations
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19:25:20 <michi_cc> glx: Got a CMake question. I've opened and built OTTD using the VS open folder method, which works great.
19:26:25 <michi_cc> glx: Now, when I run it, it is mostly working fine, but I've noticed that the AI/GS compat files are not copied into output exe directory. Should they be there or am I missing something when duing the build.
19:27:01 <glx> they are not copied, but openttd run fine inside VS
19:27:45 <michi_cc> Unless you try to check something with an AI that's written for an oder API version.
19:28:20 <glx> hmm working directory is bin so it should be ok
19:28:58 <frosch123> oh, i switched to starting it from /build
19:29:28 <frosch123> so i also expected the compat stuff there
19:30:07 <glx> but yeah from outside vs it's not ideal
19:34:04 <michi_cc> I have run it from inside VS, but apparently it is starting in out/build/x64-Debug/ (which is the exe-dir) and not bin/ for me. I've been starting the target openttd.exe, but there is also an openttd.exe (installed) target. Am I supposed to use that?
19:38:32 <glx> it should start out/build/x64-Debug, but run it in bin, we set VS_DEBUGGER_WORKING_DIRECTORY for that
19:38:40 <michi_cc> Okay, I can manually chose bin as working dir by modifying launch.vs.json.
19:39:03 <glx> hmm but wybe this only work for VS project
19:40:29 <michi_cc> As far as I can tell, VS_DEBUGGER_WORKING_DIRECTORY is only used when generating VS projects respectively building with MSBuild, but VS2019 defaults to use ninja.
19:40:42 <glx> yes that's what the doc implies
19:43:24 <michi_cc> I tried generating the project files some time ago, and while that way is working flawlessly, the resulting openttd project has all source files together in the top-level dir and disregards any grouping/sub-dirs. I don't really like that clutter.
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20:01:49 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JfQbF
20:58:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JfQxq
21:05:23 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ConnCraft commented on issue #7838: Crash in VehicleGroupWindow::GroupNameSorter https://git.io/JeKL5
21:07:13 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7838: Crash in VehicleGroupWindow::GroupNameSorter https://git.io/JeKL5
21:28:11 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JfQpO
21:33:04 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ConnCraft commented on issue #7838: Crash in VehicleGroupWindow::GroupNameSorter https://git.io/JeKL5
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23:01:20 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf7eN
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23:13:42 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf7v3
23:14:42 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ConnCraft commented on issue #7838: Crash in VehicleGroupWindow::GroupNameSorter https://git.io/JeKL5
23:16:30 <supermop_Home> man why are there so few cdist servers?
23:16:55 <supermop_Home> i find the game dreadfully boring without cargodist
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23:33:53 <supermop_Home> is there a good non scammy way to set up a server with some kind of service?
23:38:58 <supermop_Home> ok this japan server is not running at all for me
23:42:07 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf7fc
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