IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-06-15
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00:46:28 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf7UB
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09:10:35 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8220: Add: A video driver that shows what areas of the screen are dirty. https://git.io/Jf7GZ
09:10:35 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz closed pull request #8220: Add: A video driver that shows what areas of the screen are dirty. https://git.io/JfHyc
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14:01:39 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7838: Crash in VehicleGroupWindow::GroupNameSorter https://git.io/JeKL5
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14:07:17 <Eddi|zuHause> we need a selective load/unload specific cargos transport-fever-style
14:07:41 <andythenorth> the JGR implementation has known issues, but the concept is there
14:08:00 <Eddi|zuHause> that's basically every feature in patchpacks, ever
14:08:13 <b_jonas> I got confused because when I built a square-fenced girder concrete railway bridge the bridge type selection claimed a high max speed but the query tool then said speed limit 160 km/h, but it turns out that normal railway tracks also have speed limit 160 km/h, possibly because of this train newgrf.
14:08:17 <andythenorth> if 'refit to fixed cargo' could take a list
14:08:24 <andythenorth> then that would be a viable solution
14:08:35 <andythenorth> 'refit to any of these cargos: [list]'
14:08:43 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: there is track newgrfs, which can set speed limits
14:08:44 <andythenorth> other options may exist
14:10:02 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: that still wouldn't really let you do shot two-way feeder services transfer the same cargo in the right direction (valuables or passengers), right?
14:10:18 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, but this speed limit is fine, it will match the non-electric trains
14:10:25 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: cargodist covers transfres
14:11:35 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: hmm, how does that work? I might want to set up a short valuables feeder truck because in one of my towns the bank is in an awkward place, and valuables are low enough volume that it might be worth
14:12:22 <b_jonas> not that it's too important, I have to figure out how to make a decent network or loop for passengers and oils on this map first
14:12:54 <b_jonas> I might try to eventually make a big one-way loop all around the continent
14:13:42 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: you go into settings, and set the matching cargo to be either "symmetric" or "asymmetric" instead of "manual"
14:14:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and then give all the vehicles normal orders (instead of transfer)
14:14:25 <b_jonas> counterclockwise, feeding the oil from the south to the oil refinery on the east, and the oil from the east and north to the oil refinery on the west, so the oil tankers and goods vans don't run empty as much and I still get long transportation
14:14:50 <b_jonas> and transfer passengers and mail among at least three of the four major cities at the same time
14:15:11 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: I'll look at that, thanks
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14:17:08 <b_jonas> I should set up some temporary service for the refinery in the west though, to avoid it closing. I could pay for a new one, but it'd be nicer not to have to.
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14:19:13 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #7838: Crash in VehicleGroupWindow::GroupNameSorter https://git.io/JeKL5
14:23:21 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7838: Crash in VehicleGroupWindow::GroupNameSorter https://git.io/JeKL5
14:33:07 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #7838: Crash in VehicleGroupWindow::GroupNameSorter https://git.io/JeKL5
14:35:48 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #7838: Crash in VehicleGroupWindow::GroupNameSorter https://git.io/JeKL5
14:40:51 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #7838: Crash in VehicleGroupWindow::GroupNameSorter https://git.io/JeKL5
14:43:34 * andythenorth considers un-grouping Supplies cargos
14:44:03 <andythenorth> i.e. instead of Engineering Supplies: Explosives, Pipe, Parts, Vehicles, Tools, etc
14:44:14 <andythenorth> I think it would be bad though, game is a game, needs game mechanics
14:49:42 <FLHerne> In a way it would be easier to manage
14:50:36 <FLHerne> More cargos means fewer accepting industries per cargo, which makes keeping cdist in line simpler
15:05:00 <supermop_Home> andythenorth i'm sure it'll be fun either way
15:07:50 <andythenorth> it means more routes into industries
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15:11:24 <_dp_> so, is it a hunt season for globals?
15:11:31 <_dp_> I know one to remove as well xD
15:16:27 <LordAro> _dp_: it's always hunt season for globaLS
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15:31:50 <FLHerne> andythenorth_: How many supply variants would one industry require?
15:32:02 <FLHerne> And would it need all of them for maximum production, or any-of?
15:37:23 <andythenorth_> workers to industries might be a more interesting mechanic
15:37:34 <andythenorth_> it would probably work exactly like ports
15:37:42 <andythenorth_> supply n tonnes per 90 days
15:37:51 <andythenorth_> but ports are really hard to explain
15:38:51 <supermop_Home> workers are kind of weird
15:39:40 <FLHerne> I think workers for production would just be annoying
15:40:00 <supermop_Home> espescially if an industry is right near a town
15:40:13 <FLHerne> It would be nice if most industries produced and accepted a smallish number of passengers, just for 'realism'
15:40:23 <supermop_Home> like they can walk their own damn selves to work
15:40:32 <andythenorth_> I was thinking of measuring distance to town
15:40:36 <andythenorth_> but again, hard to explain
15:40:47 <supermop_Home> i think that's ok
15:41:49 <supermop_Home> when i play steeltown, i always end up with one quadrant with essentially no towns, and some tertiary or secondary industries in the middle of nowhere
15:42:51 <FLHerne> That's one thing that really bugs me in OTTD
15:43:11 <FLHerne> Both towns and industries are placed pretty much randomly
15:43:20 <supermop_Home> like this foundry is some kind of mountaintop hermitage...
15:43:24 <FLHerne> "why did anyone want a town on top of an isolated mountain"?
15:44:33 <FLHerne> "why is there a factory deep in the woods with no roads leading to it?"
15:44:37 <supermop_Home> lets build our blast furnace where it is hardest to get our rawmaterial delivered, and far from any market for our product or workforce
15:46:08 <andythenorth_> I have many thoughts on that
15:46:13 <andythenorth_> I could do things about it
15:46:20 * andythenorth_ currently in a whereby call
15:46:26 <andythenorth_> like Zoom, but without the hassle
15:46:42 <supermop_Home> im in bluejeans
15:47:01 <supermop_Home> watching the bastardization of pieces i designed
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15:52:31 <supermop_Home> "can you guys see my screen now?"
15:52:38 <supermop_Home> "how about now?"
15:54:13 <supermop_Home> after 30 seconds of presenting.... "hey, we aren't seeing anything on our end"
16:05:37 <andythenorth_> so Steeltown does somewhat try to locate certain industries
16:05:43 <andythenorth_> but it has to be really careful about it
16:06:21 <andythenorth_> constraints risk growing at something like x^n or other maths
16:06:28 <andythenorth_> and rapidly become unsatisfiable
16:06:40 <andythenorth_> also dependency loops emerge which cannot be met
16:07:07 <andythenorth_> there are solutions to this, which would involve providing weights on the map, then locating industries in a defined order
16:07:19 <andythenorth_> e.g. 'iron ore mine regions, coal mine regions'
16:07:35 <andythenorth_> then blast furnaces would locate near those according to a heuristic
16:07:46 <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause can probably explain it all better :P
16:08:03 <andythenorth_> mostly though I just play a 256x512 map and play in half of it
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17:51:13 <b_jonas> time to dismantle my old coal trains, because they're in the way of real profitable lines
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19:36:43 <Wolf01> andythenorth_: new lego train
19:47:18 <andythenorth_> oh you beat me :P
19:47:21 <andythenorth_> I was going to tell you
19:50:00 <frosch123> shouldn't it be green?
19:53:17 <andythenorth_> is that "Improved Engine Green"?
19:57:10 <glx> I only know the green one
19:58:10 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #8223: Fix violation of strict weak ordering in engine and group name sorters https://git.io/Jf7SV
20:35:32 <b_jonas> time to electrify all my railway tracks (I should have done that long ago)
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20:37:08 <b_jonas> good thing OpenTTD lets me do that even on tracks that have a train
20:38:34 <b_jonas> and with one drag-drop for the whole map too
20:39:37 <b_jonas> now I just have to determine which electric locomotive I want to buy
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21:30:29 <FLHerne> Is it documented anywhere in NML what the extra parameters to string() do?
21:31:32 <FLHerne> Or even what string() itself does...
21:32:28 <FLHerne> string() isn't included in either "Elementary expressions" or "Builtin functions"
21:32:50 <FLHerne> And I can't find any examples of using it with more parameters than the string name
21:33:10 <FLHerne> Or an explicit description of what it does even with just a name, although that's pretty obvious
21:33:14 <glx> I think Eddi|zuHause has some
21:33:27 <frosch123> FLHerne: i think whenever we tried, it was weird
21:33:43 <frosch123> apparently nml can concat strings at compile time
21:34:25 <frosch123> real parameters would be more useful, but iirc they did not work right
21:35:18 <FLHerne> So, what do they actually do?
21:35:29 <FLHerne> Documenting the weirdness would be better than undocumented weirdness
21:35:47 <frosch123> you know the string-commands, like {NUM} and {WEIGHT}?
21:36:32 <frosch123> well, nml inserts them, esp. compile-time constants
21:36:36 <supermop_Home> andythenorth_ patch to make one of the green CC yellow?
21:36:40 <frosch123> it's unclear how much really works
21:37:50 <FLHerne> frosch123: I don't really understand what you mean by that
21:38:47 <frosch123> string("foo {NUM} bar", 10) = string("foo 10 bar")
21:39:19 <FLHerne> And if it's not constant?
21:39:38 <FLHerne> Does it push values onto the stack?
21:39:57 <frosch123> it should, but iirc it was buggy
21:40:01 <frosch123> or we did not understand it :)
21:40:26 <frosch123> i always reverted to manual pushing
21:40:55 <frosch123> string(STR_STATION, string(STR_TOWN),string(STR_STATION_KILNS)) <- in FIRS you find stuff like that
21:41:07 <frosch123> which is concatenation at compile-time
21:42:02 <frosch123> no idea why FIRS does it like that
21:42:31 <frosch123> there is certainly room for exploration what nml really does :)
21:46:37 <frosch123> sounds like only constants were implemented
21:49:10 <supermop_Home> Harrogate's changed a bit in the last 20 years it looks
21:51:00 <supermop_Home> street view won't let me go into the bus lot
22:00:02 <argoneus> is there any sort of city builder grf that works with firs?
22:00:08 <argoneus> to have to deliver cargos to towns for them to grow
22:00:17 <supermop_Home> most GS will work with it
22:00:29 <argoneus> don't those just use vanilla cargos
22:00:58 <supermop_Home> argoneus no, most can recognize firs cargoes - FIRs is older than GS
22:01:42 <supermop_Home> if a version of the GS is a bit older than the version of firs you use there may be a few odd results,
22:01:43 <glx> GS have less issues than AI with non vanilla cargos and vehicles
22:02:19 <supermop_Home> but generally GS have no problem basing growth off firs cargo
22:02:25 <argoneus> i wish the content downloader told you which date they were released on
22:02:29 <argoneus> and not version: 117
22:02:30 <glx> well the main issues for AIs is the weird construct rules of some vehicle sets
22:03:25 <supermop_Home> for some firs economies, a GS might make some choices you wouldn't about what cargoes are important -
22:03:58 <supermop_Home> like, why does my city care how many engineering supplies are delivered? the city isn't a mine
22:12:12 <argoneus> downloaded a random gamescript and it crashed
22:18:24 <supermop_Home> appears 5 2 track lines, and 1 3 track line all converge on Leeds from the West, but leaving to the east the throat is like immediately down to a single 2 track line
22:19:37 <FLHerne> supermop_Home: It's mostly a terminus
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22:20:03 <supermop_Home> i don't remember it being so lopsided when i lived there
22:20:19 <supermop_Home> ooh i found a depot where HSTs sleep
22:20:45 <supermop_Home> with a turntable!
22:20:55 <FLHerne> If anything, it used to be more lopsided
22:21:15 <supermop_Home> looks to be a few pacers here too
22:21:37 <supermop_Home> "Neville Hill Depot"
22:22:04 <FLHerne> Before 2002 there were even fewer through platforms
22:22:38 <supermop_Home> all the (disused) junctions and flyovers to the west are just look like something from locomotion, and the east side is like as simple as can be
22:23:11 <FLHerne> And until the 80s (IIRC?) there were another pair of lines to the west
22:23:25 <FLHerne> On the viaduct that's now disused
22:23:40 <supermop_Home> trying to trace the scars of old lifted lines in the general Harrogate area
22:23:46 <supermop_Home> in google earth
22:24:36 <supermop_Home> i see the pillow factory at pannal is gone...
22:24:54 <supermop_Home> andythenorth_ what economy do pillow factories go in?
22:26:11 <supermop_Home> whoa there is a Coors brewery in Tadcaster? who in Yorkshire is drinking coors?
22:27:00 <supermop_Home> not even in the same conglomerate as sam smiths... doesn't make any sense to be there
22:35:55 <FLHerne> (you can see those two big roof vents)
22:43:14 <andythenorth_> oh frosch went :P
22:43:41 <andythenorth_> I have no idea how nml strings work either
22:43:52 <andythenorth_> the FIRS ones were inherited, I didn't write nml FIRS
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23:01:08 <Eddi|zuHause> <FLHerne> Does it push values onto the stack? <-- no, you have to do that manually
23:01:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and that part is not pretty
23:01:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i have an example somewhere
23:01:38 <supermop_Home> andy i randomly found the fanhouse from some flickr album you shared the other week
23:04:10 <supermop_Home> nearby is that potash mine... and people are reviewing the mine on google maps?
23:04:41 <FLHerne> "good mine. lots of potash here."
23:04:43 <supermop_Home> like, lets buy potash from here is has 3.8 stars on google?
23:04:54 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: so it doesn't actually work like a stack, but you have to write to registers 0x100 through 0x105 (i think), most parameters consume 16 bit, so you have to bitstuff two of them into one register
23:05:33 <supermop_Home> FLHerne the one 1-star rating didn't leave a review, so no idea what his complaint was
23:06:28 <supermop_Home> new FIRS mechanic: social media rating of industries
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23:12:47 <supermop_Home> bunch of parked oil rigs at redcar
23:13:26 <supermop_Home> looks like they scrap them there
23:16:09 <Eddi|zuHause> why do i know the name "redcar"?
23:17:37 <supermop_Home> from google maps it looks like the whole rustbelt compressed into one English town?
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23:33:23 <FLHerne> The steelworks closed a few years ago
23:33:37 <FLHerne> Maybe that's the authentic rust belt experience
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23:41:14 <b_jonas> nice, openttd even lets me replace a bridge live under a train
23:41:46 <Eddi|zuHause> it didn't always allow that
23:43:21 <b_jonas> yes, ottd interface has improved a lot
23:47:13 <andythenorth_> supermop_Home I did actually propose industry rating :P
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