IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-05-16
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10:12:21 <andythenorth> natural gas cargo label?
10:17:24 <nielsm> except for things that already have a cargo label I'd say go with chemical formulas
10:17:42 <nielsm> MTHN if you don't want chemistry
10:18:13 <andythenorth> I am childishly amused by having ACID, COKE, METH and SLAG as cargo labels
10:18:26 <andythenorth> maybe I could do E___
10:19:02 <andythenorth> hmm, I haven't played Dope Wars for years
10:50:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i might be wrong here, but "natural gas" is mostly ethane, as it has more energy content and can be transported more easily?
10:53:33 <andythenorth> I think there's a gas treatment plant step
10:55:31 <andythenorth> Steeltown is 'super realistic'...complete representation of steel industry....except where I dropped some stuff for gameplay reasons
10:56:14 <andythenorth> e.g. all the many alloying metals are represented by manganese and ferro-chrome
10:57:10 <andythenorth> if natural gas is present, then I need to consider ammonia from natural gas instead of naphtha
11:21:32 <Eddi|zuHause> is that a thing that actually happens on an industrial scale?
11:28:30 <andythenorth> a lot of the commodity chemicals have multiple viable processes
11:28:55 <andythenorth> the process used seems to depend very much on locally available feedstocks
11:29:50 <andythenorth> it's moderately confusing for grf design :P
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12:01:45 <stefino> hi guys. I had a few months break and now I see that there is a new version of Bananas. I read two ways how to migrate packages, I have a github account but I have no idea how this new bananas works or where the difference is?
12:08:25 <stefino> and still unable to upload files bigger than XY MB via web uploader like before?
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14:13:08 <FLHerne> "Want to run your own BaNaNaS" ?
14:13:48 <FLHerne> Perhaps there should be a SimuScape one without the old-save-support guarantee :p
14:47:04 <andythenorth> I think Maria got bored, not many posts in recent years
15:01:24 <FLHerne> Hm, in-game BaNaNaS repository list? :D
15:01:36 <FLHerne> Or paste in a URL or something
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15:04:41 <FLHerne> Hm, right now it's extremely hardcoded
15:33:01 <Borg> signal spacing..... what you guys use most often?
15:33:12 <Borg> I started w/ 7 tiles.. moved to 5.. now im thinking.. about 3...
15:33:25 <Borg> but I feel its... ekhm. too hardcore
15:33:52 <frosch123> odd numbers are weird
15:34:41 <frosch123> you cannot half them later on
15:35:02 <Borg> hmm.. I never half signals...
15:35:23 <Borg> I either spread the more by 1.. or.. shrink them by 1
15:35:31 <Borg> if I add intersection.. or there is misalign
15:35:41 <frosch123> with certain settings signals can be expensive
15:36:19 <frosch123> so when i used to play, i usually first build single track, then double-track with a few signals, then something ilke distance 32 or 16
15:36:40 <frosch123> when some of the early lines turn into mainlines, it can be reduced to 8 or even 4
15:37:16 <Borg> but.. odd numbers are better for that..
15:37:41 <frosch123> maybe we are counting differen then :p
15:38:03 <frosch123> the idea is to put a signal in the middle and have both sides equally distant
15:38:52 <Borg> ah.. yeah. I count empty tiles..
15:38:56 <Borg> my current sidnal density is 6
15:39:17 <Borg> but moving to 4 is too hardcore I think ;)
15:43:01 <Borg> but.. in games I often see players spamming them even at 2!!
15:44:01 <Borg> maybe I should set density to 5...
15:44:14 <Borg> then I can use... 4 or 6.. depending in situation..
15:50:10 <Samu> _dp_ i can't reproduce a desync
16:02:39 <Samu> town stations near mismatch: town 34
16:03:56 <Samu> but I don't get the game desyncing
16:04:06 <Samu> server, client still connected
16:20:09 <_dp_> frosch123, "certain" settings are everything without newgrf :p
16:20:18 <_dp_> and not even sure if newgrfs fix that
16:21:05 <frosch123> "fix" is subjective
16:21:12 <_dp_> Samu, yeah, it was already a pain to get that save so I didn't bother to get actual desync in game
16:21:43 <_dp_> Samu, you need to transport something somewhere but that changes random and well, whatever
16:22:04 <_dp_> Samu, if CheckCaches says they desync it's already good enough
16:23:03 <_dp_> frosch123, fix is not have them be 3/4 of rail property maintenance :p
16:23:56 <_dp_> I'd happily make them free if I could
16:26:29 <_dp_> trying to manage signal gap to actually optimize maintenance is way too annoying currently
16:27:06 <_dp_> if you could just click a button and reduce gap on a existing line then mb
16:36:51 <Samu> i'm trying to understand what is town->stations_near used for
16:37:04 <Samu> seems it's not used for anything important
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16:38:22 <_dp_> it's used for house production for example
16:39:04 <_dp_> but here it forgets to remove station so just production won't desync it afaict
16:46:55 <_dp_> hm, looks like there in no harm to having extra stuff in town's station_near currently
16:47:07 <_dp_> so mb it couldn't actually desync in game but whatever
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17:03:12 <Samu> station acceptance doesn't change immediately, and it seems not related to t->stations_near
17:05:59 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ilayaraja97 updated pull request #8149: Fix #8131: small bridges also have pillars drawn https://git.io/JfRkQ
17:14:29 <Samu> Is town->stations_near used for some hidden newgrf feature ...
17:15:05 <Samu> cus it doesn't seem important for syncing purposes
17:18:22 <Samu> there's a stations nearby for AIs but it's for industryies only
17:19:38 <Samu> if it were for towns, I don't think it would matter, as AIs are only run on the server
17:20:07 <Samu> so, it's kinda doing nothing? it just exists
17:30:39 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ilayaraja97 commented on issue #7992: Bridges with both road and tram catenary only draw one of them https://git.io/JvcW9
17:37:16 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] embeddedt commented on issue #7992: Bridges with both road and tram catenary only draw one of them https://git.io/JvcW9
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19:01:25 <andythenorth> FIRS gets more FML :)
19:01:33 <andythenorth> I have so many cargos across the economies
19:01:43 <andythenorth> running out of unique cargo colours in the set :)
19:06:00 <frosch123> where are colors used? in the graphs? who uses them?
19:08:01 <andythenorth> I assume people?
19:08:13 <andythenorth> I use them about once a year when setting cargo payment curves
19:08:49 * andythenorth wonders if they could just be auto-assigned
19:10:26 <andythenorth> yak-shaving: unique cargo icon, unique cargo colour, unique 2-char code for station window, unique payment rate to prevent overlap in charts
19:10:35 <andythenorth> probably spend more time doing that than drawing industry sprites
19:10:47 <andythenorth> because it's a tedious cascading packing problem
19:11:06 <andythenorth> changing one cargo to space the colour out visually from others might mean rearranging 5 more
19:11:17 <andythenorth> same for forcing a unique payment amount
19:11:27 <andythenorth> and these stupid 2 char codes
19:15:10 <andythenorth> does it matter that cargo colours might change between FIRS economies?
19:15:22 <andythenorth> does coal have to be black?
19:15:35 <andythenorth> does mail have to be white?
19:16:04 <andythenorth> can OpenTTD set them for me? :P
19:28:55 <andythenorth> 64 colours in preference order :P
19:29:03 <andythenorth> automatic assignment
19:31:18 <andythenorth> is it a terrible idea? Or are players really very familiar with the exact colours of Ferrochrome and Rebar?
19:31:53 <andythenorth> tempted to just pick every 4th colour in the palette
19:45:45 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:50:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: should be consistent
19:52:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: idea: cargos in the same chain should be similar colour, getting either lighter or darker in each stage
19:53:09 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you could implement a graph colouring algorithm for andy
19:55:10 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i'd be going crazy with trying to keep it stable across new crazy ideas (i.e. about every 2 weeks)
19:56:33 <frosch123> what's the difference to now?
19:56:58 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause what defines same chain?
19:58:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: usually an uninterrupted line from primary cargo to customer product
20:00:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if an industry has more input than output cargos, you have some creative freedom which matching defines the chain
20:01:27 <andythenorth> oh the colours are used in the cargo maps and cargo flow also
20:02:18 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, cargodist graph
20:04:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: probably not the best graph layout to make the colour distribution from
20:08:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: vague algorithm for choosing a chain: 0) assume *supplies are special and ignore, 1) choose an end cargo (one that gets delivered to towns) [example: Vehicles], 2) choose an input cargo [e.g. vehicle engines], 3) continue at 2 for this cargo, until a primary industry is reached 4) start over with 1) for another cargo
20:09:12 <Eddi|zuHause> this way you sort cargos into chains, while crossing them out from the graph (and thus simplifying the graph in each step)
20:10:58 <andythenorth> this requires more recursion than I can program :)
20:11:11 <andythenorth> but it would make a nice rainbow colour if done right
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20:16:39 <TrueBrain> completely unrelated, can I punch people who do my_Variable_Is_Cool ?
20:16:47 <TrueBrain> I mean ... pick one or the other, but BOTH?!
20:18:13 <frosch123> _MY_variable_Is_cooL
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20:19:00 <Eddi|zuHause> mYvArIaBlEiScOoL
20:19:27 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: now you need to reset your password :P
20:19:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i started programming in case insensitive languages :p
20:20:18 <frosch123> TrueBrain: anyway, don't be so harsh to xaroth
20:28:32 <andythenorth> ok so I'll make the cargo colours algorithmic
20:28:43 <andythenorth> and Eddi|zuHause will do a PR to change the alogorithm :P
20:28:56 <andythenorth> can OpenTTD do it instead? :P
20:29:06 <Eddi|zuHause> ... i don't think so :p
20:32:58 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that's not the kind of colouring that we want
20:33:35 <frosch123> you just have to specifiy what graph to feed into it
20:46:51 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: you need some graph that both has connections between all cargos in the same economy, as well as preserving additional chain information for the strategy....
20:47:25 <frosch123> you connect all cargos which shall not have the same colour
20:47:49 <frosch123> and you group all cargos which shalll have the same/similar cargo into one node
20:48:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and i don't see any mention of how it should maintain stability over slight changes of the graph
20:48:09 <frosch123> but i don't think the latter is possible at all
20:48:23 <frosch123> why is stability a goal
20:48:32 <andythenorth> OpenTTD decides :P
20:49:09 <frosch123> how many "good" colors are there? 16?
20:49:26 <Samu> 64 cargoes for 16 colors?
20:49:48 <Eddi|zuHause> this would be utterly hopeless with 16 colours
20:49:56 <frosch123> i prefer a "honest" solution, where some cargos get the same color, instead of assigning slightly different colors that noone can distinguish unless they are next to each other
20:50:21 <Eddi|zuHause> which is why i brought up the idea to have changes of brightness within the chain
20:50:54 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The cargo linkgraph view would be confusing with random colours
20:51:02 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Because it's that and the 2-letter code
20:51:14 <FLHerne> And the 2-letter code is not always terribly obvious
20:51:45 <frosch123> isn't cdist for pax only?
20:51:46 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: stability is a very preferable goal for long term users
20:52:08 <FLHerne> It can be set to be, and some foolish people do
20:52:41 <frosch123> i know that it *can* be set. but do you want to target the foolish?
20:52:47 <FLHerne> But the One True Way is to enable it for everything
20:53:07 <FLHerne> frosch123: No, it's foolish to set it to be pax-only :p
20:53:36 <Eddi|zuHause> "foolish" is if you think anyone playing not-your-way is "foolish"
20:54:34 <frosch123> eddi and the empty set :)
20:55:16 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: I thought capitalizing "One True Way" would be clear enough ;-)
20:56:09 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: this was directed more against frosch123 than you :p
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21:19:14 <andythenorth> those 2 letter cargos are their own problem
21:19:30 <andythenorth> frosch123 there are 64 good colours :P
21:19:42 <andythenorth> just pick every 4th colour from the DOS palette
21:19:54 <andythenorth> and if it's pink, increment the counter until it isn't :P
21:34:39 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne opened pull request #144: Fix #139: Make --cache-dir work, and avoid creating dirs with --no-cache https://git.io/Jf0Em
21:34:54 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne closed pull request #142: Fix #139: Make --cache-dir work and don't create a directory when --no-cache is given. https://git.io/Jf8BZ
21:35:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you eliminate all the pink and blinking colours, it gets lower quickly
21:35:24 <FLHerne> frosch123: Can you please take a look at #144 ^ if/when you have time?
21:39:36 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: And why can't we have blinking cargo colours?
21:40:09 <FLHerne> andy can add "Fairy Lights" to the FIRS Consumer Junk economy
21:43:13 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #144: Fix #139: Make --cache-dir work, and avoid creating dirs with --no-cache https://git.io/Jf0Em
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21:58:35 <andythenorth> cargo_payment_list_colour: ${4 * cargo.get_numeric_id(economy)};
21:59:16 <andythenorth> ^^ frosch123 probably not ideal, but proves there's no point manually setting them :D
21:59:24 <andythenorth> that's not worse than the hours I've spent picking colours
22:05:08 <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's not really a sane example
22:05:37 <FLHerne> The reason cargos are toggleable is so I can compare a meaningful subset
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22:06:41 <FLHerne> For the pile of weird cargos it makes no difference
22:06:50 <andythenorth> does that give us anything we can use as a heuristic though?
22:06:54 <FLHerne> But I'm very used to pax being blue and coal black
22:07:00 <andythenorth> I can't know what cargos you want to compare in advance
22:08:01 <FLHerne> I just meant: it's an unreadable giant mess with every cargo enabled, so random colours makes no difference there
22:08:26 <andythenorth> is the carefully manually curated version
22:08:36 <andythenorth> I'm not convinced it was worth the effort
22:08:53 <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's *exactly* my point
22:09:10 <andythenorth> if we didn't have the curves, it could be just a bar chart
22:09:24 <FLHerne> In that state, it's useless regardless of the colours, so no-one tries to use it in that state
22:09:54 <FLHerne> So comparing curated to random in a useless state that no-one uses isn't meaningful
22:10:50 <FLHerne> Although tbh the cargo payment graph isn't much use in FIRS anyway, because the chains matter much more...
22:27:31 <andythenorth> so what to do about the stupid 2 letter codes?
22:28:04 <andythenorth> stupid / not especially helpful /s
22:29:12 <FLHerne> They could be 3-letter codes and still fit in the boxes :p
22:30:38 <andythenorth> rebar is REBAR now
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23:13:46 <Samu> abreviations can have more than 2 chars?
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23:28:32 <nielsm> nothing in the code is directly limiting them
23:29:50 <andythenorth> seems to be a convention
23:29:54 <andythenorth> 2 chars, tiny font
23:30:18 <nielsm> if you control all cargos you could just change to 3 characrers on everything
23:31:28 <andythenorth> I considered using the labels :P
23:35:16 <milek7> cargo legend UI is.. bad
23:37:59 <andythenorth> it's pretty useless
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