IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-05-15
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08:21:29 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ilayaraja97 commented on issue #8131: Missing bounding boxes for bridge pillars of height 1 cause graphical glitches https://git.io/JfWqh
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10:38:41 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8149: Fix #8131: small bridges also have pillars drawn https://git.io/JfRYi
10:48:49 <Speeder> another day... and still very little progress in my map :(
10:49:09 <Speeder> who knew importing a heightmap and riverrs would be so hard?
10:52:55 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ilayaraja97 updated pull request #8149: Fix #8131: small bridges also have pillars drawn https://git.io/JfRkQ
11:03:17 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ilayaraja97 updated pull request #8149: Fix #8131: small bridges also have pillars drawn https://git.io/JfRkQ
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11:35:13 <LordAro> surely there's a reason "short" bridges were special cased
11:36:08 <LordAro> i know all the tunnelbridge stuff is basically voodoo, but still...
11:41:01 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8149: Fix #8131: small bridges also have pillars drawn https://git.io/JfRsY
12:30:04 <rudolfs[m]> Is zbase graphics set actively maintained? I was wondering if there is a point to report usability issues
12:38:50 <LordAro> aBase is intended to be its replacement
12:42:56 <rudolfs[m]> Looks like the author of aBase forked it do further the development. Will look at the graphics once I'm back home. Thanks
12:44:45 <rudolfs[m]> Hmm, aBase doesn't seem to be very active either :/
12:50:48 <LordAro> clearly we need bBase ;)
12:51:24 <LordAro> (ideally we should probably deprecate/hide one or other of them)
13:09:07 <Eddi|zuHause> do we have any control over them?
13:09:44 <LordAro> no, but we have control over bananas :p
13:09:46 <FLHerne> Zephyris is intermittently active on the forum, so you could ask
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13:27:13 <Borg> okey.. seems BSPI v2.00 works well.. no bugs spotted..
13:27:18 <Borg> I think I will leave it at GRFv6..
13:27:37 <Borg> If someone cant do as basic thing as setting Param1 correctly.. he should maybe play some other GRF after all ;)
13:52:17 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ilayaraja97 commented on pull request #8149: Fix #8131: small bridges also have pillars drawn https://git.io/JfRc0
14:00:01 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ilayaraja97 commented on issue #8123: "Unable to find local depot" on dead-end tram tracks (regardless of location) https://git.io/JfcIn
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15:26:12 <Borg> question.... Monorail and Maglev trains are same on all climates?
15:28:10 <zolek> hey, I just started today and have one town with around 980 citizens with very bad reputation
15:28:30 <zolek> I've build TONS of trees and cant build bus stops
15:28:35 <FLHerne> But no-one remembers that exists
15:28:41 <zolek> how to improve reputation?
15:29:02 <FLHerne> zolek: Building trees only helps if it's on a tile that didn't already have one tree
15:29:25 <andythenorth> wow, years of pointless tree building :)
15:29:34 <andythenorth> sometimes I wonder how I play this game
15:29:38 <Borg> FLHerne: yeah... Toyland is out of scope :>
15:30:03 <FLHerne> zolek: Demolish all the trees
15:30:07 <FLHerne> (or about 200 tiles worth)
15:30:25 <FLHerne> You'll get the minimum possible rating, but it can't get worse
15:30:35 <FLHerne> Then plant trees on all the now-empty tiles
15:30:45 <FLHerne> (yes, it's kind of stupid)
15:42:52 <zolek> I'm not sure I'm doing it right
15:44:47 <zolek> how can i see the area of influence of the town?
15:52:16 <nielsm> I don't think there is anything to see it directly, use the land query tool (? button) to query some tiles
15:52:22 <nielsm> check the Local authority line
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16:11:27 <LordAro> nielsm: i thought we merged the thing that showed authority area?
16:12:19 <nielsm> I just forgot where it is
16:12:35 <LordAro> in one of the town's advanced windows, iirc
16:12:48 <LordAro> istr raising concerns about it being too hidden at the time :p
16:16:25 <Eddi|zuHause> we have so many features that are "too hidden"
16:16:50 <_dp_> is it even useful for anything but trees? xD
16:17:20 <Eddi|zuHause> you barely find them when you know they're there, let alone finding them randomly by playing
16:19:18 <andythenorth> we should treat them like a website
16:19:25 <andythenorth> everything should be above the fold
16:19:50 <_dp_> andythenorth, you still need to leave some space for the game :p
16:19:52 <andythenorth> ideally all the navigation is placed in the top global nav
16:20:00 <andythenorth> and ideally we have navigation for everything
16:20:14 <andythenorth> and ideally the nav is really important
16:20:23 <andythenorth> and the most important thing is always first in the list
16:20:41 <_dp_> people can't even find features in the top menu curently
16:20:44 <andythenorth> and everything is equally important, so it all must be first in the list
16:20:56 <_dp_> 50% don't know company goals and story book exist
16:21:00 * andythenorth is just being a dick
16:21:10 <andythenorth> too many UI design requests to 'make this more prominent'
16:21:22 <andythenorth> yes, what would you like to be less prominent?
16:23:38 <Eddi|zuHause> we could use some UI design patterns that are actually from this century
16:24:23 <andythenorth> you have made 2 statements there in 1
16:24:27 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, make one button and different ways to press it for different features? :p
16:24:33 <andythenorth> some of our UI has no design
16:24:55 <andythenorth> for the obvious reason that programmers who are good at algorithms and similar subjects
16:25:01 <andythenorth> are not always programmers who are good at UI
16:26:06 <andythenorth> so we could use some UI design patterns
16:26:19 <andythenorth> and some of those could be from this century also :P
16:29:42 <Eddi|zuHause> so does anyone here know UI design patterns from this century? :p
16:30:32 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: I remember searching for the "don't accept cargo until first vehicle" in the gui, a long time after it became a cfg only
16:32:20 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause what problems are we setting out to solve?
16:32:25 <andythenorth> change the mode of interaction?
16:36:43 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: The problem is, radically changing the UI would upset people :-/
16:42:11 <andythenorth> I'm not sure we'd do it well
16:55:25 <glx> I'm already lost in UI when I switch to opengfx
16:55:31 <zolek> I read somewhere that you can "join" bus stations with a train station, how to do that?
16:55:56 <glx> always try the magic key :)
16:56:15 <zolek> and can you do that with existing bus-stops?
16:56:16 <glx> I think the tooltip mentions it
16:56:41 <zolek> like, I have buses already but want to join cities with railroad
16:57:06 <glx> when you build a station with ctrl you get a window to select nearby station IIRC
16:58:38 <FLHerne> zolek: You can join a new rail station to an existing bus stop, but you can't merge two existing stations
16:59:20 <glx> and you can also build different adjacent stations (still with ctrl)
16:59:22 <Samu> it remains when the window is closed
17:00:05 <glx> when you reopen the window the button is still pressed
17:00:55 <Samu> that's not how the other similar ones work
17:01:08 <FLHerne> Transparency menu is the same
17:01:21 <glx> but other are linked to build tools
17:01:22 <FLHerne> But true that it's inconsistent with the station coverage
17:01:54 <FLHerne> glx: Station windows now have a 'coverage' button that's equivalent
17:02:12 <FLHerne> And that does go away if you close the window
17:02:23 <FLHerne> IMO *that's* a bug though
17:02:29 <glx> and probably not a show coverage in the station itself
17:04:12 <FLHerne> glx: Do you think that spritelayout bug is worth making nml 0.5.2 for? It seems pretty serious AIUI
17:04:46 <FLHerne> I mean, a new NML release is literally "write the changes and click the button" thanks to the automation people
17:07:01 <glx> yes it's an important bug, but including #142 would be nice too
17:07:47 <andythenorth> I would release early and often
17:07:50 <andythenorth> they are very low cost
17:08:02 <FLHerne> glx: Hm, I can fix 139 with just the trivial one-line change from the first commit and a Makefile tweak
17:08:08 <andythenorth> the biggest cost is that I have to reformat the changelog from .md to bbcode list
17:08:12 <andythenorth> which is painful as all fuck
17:14:20 <supermop_Home> this space frame needs more work but i'm happy with my kitbash
17:34:22 <glx> oh this town names PRs are annoying
17:37:30 <FLHerne> andythenorth: nml changelog isn't really markdown? It's just a list
17:39:19 <andythenorth> I gripe more because I also have to do it for all my grfs
17:39:44 <andythenorth> there's probably a format x -> bbcode converter in that magical utility I've forgotten the name of
17:40:07 <FLHerne> There seems to be one on Github
17:40:15 * FLHerne hacks up a script for nml
17:40:58 <FLHerne> How does bbcode do nested list items?
17:42:07 <FLHerne> Just [list] inside a list?
17:42:33 <andythenorth> if it works, do a FIRS PR :P
18:10:14 <_dp_> It's amazing how much resources openttd sometime wastes for totally unnecessary features :(
18:11:27 <nielsm> glx: can we tell that spanish town names person to stop it and just make a new newgrf?
18:18:49 <_dp_> andythenorth, it maintains, reallocates and stores in save tile matrix for each town just to generate bloody subsidies that barely anyone cares about
18:19:18 <andythenorth> that could be trivially reimplemented with GS?
18:19:25 <_dp_> cargo dist is a bit more useful but why is in wasting tons of memory when not enabled as well?
18:19:31 <andythenorth> I haven't done a subsidy for about 10 years
18:21:25 <_dp_> andythenorth, well, if it's ok to remove smth that's part of the original game in favour of GS I'm all for it
18:21:33 <_dp_> there should be better subsidy scripts already
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18:49:25 <Borg> _dp_: because it still maintains flows? even when cargodist off? this is actually nice feature..
18:49:43 <Borg> I use flow graph tool often.. to understand my supply chain.. :)
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18:51:29 <_dp_> Borg, I don't think flow works without cargodist
18:52:09 <nielsm> the cargo flow graph is always calculated and its calculation doesn't depend on cdist settings
18:52:28 <Borg> oh thats good :) I got worried about _dp_ cleanup plan ;)
18:53:02 <andythenorth> _dp_ the chances of removing subsidies are...low :(
18:53:13 <andythenorth> if I wasn't such a clown shoes programmer, I'd start a fork
18:53:41 * _dp_ already has 2 forks but that aint helping :(
18:53:42 <andythenorth> but I do not have the capabilities, and it's unlikely I'll learn :P
18:54:09 <Borg> I wish I could actually compile OpenTTD myself.. so much deps... ;) well...
18:54:55 <Borg> I mean.. not the dedicated server of course.. but GUI client... dedicated server compiles nicely..
18:54:58 <andythenorth> there aren't many other deps, if you ever comile anything else
18:55:32 <Borg> andythenorth: maybe I should try... but first I need to upgrade my mingw compiler.....
18:55:32 <_dp_> even adding a kill switch for subsidies will require a savegame update :(
18:56:25 <glx> but using visual studio is easier
18:56:29 <_dp_> subsidy api is a perfect example of gs impotency btw, it can get subsidy properties and create a new ones
18:56:45 <_dp_> can't change stuff, can't cancel them, can't even disable default ones :(
18:56:52 <Borg> glx: Iam alergic to all those auto-magic update systems... really..
18:57:03 <andythenorth> afaik, GS was never designed, it's a side effect
18:57:09 <andythenorth> follows from NoAI
18:57:22 <andythenorth> TB might smack me down as wrong :)
18:58:30 <nielsm> well the original AI was removed in favour of NoAI, and arguable the original subsidy system is also kind of a mission system like GS is
18:58:50 <nielsm> so removing subsidies in favour of GS could be acceptable imo
18:59:15 <nielsm> but maybe write a semi-official GS that provides the same kind of basic subsidies
19:00:03 <glx> it should be possible to add code for GS full control of subsidies
19:00:32 <nielsm> _dp_ busy bee doesn't give bonuses just for-fun objectives
19:03:21 <_dp_> hm, interesting, I though there are plenty of subsidy scripts but can't find anything
19:08:31 <andythenorth> if we were more purist, we'd remove all vehicles, industries, objects and houses in favour of bundled newgrfs
19:08:50 <andythenorth> I'd place low probability on that happening, but it would be more correct
19:09:09 <_dp_> andythenorth, microservice approach, no game, just bundle of newgrfs :p
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19:09:43 <andythenorth> _dp_ "it's all lambdas running in the cloud"
19:10:51 <Speeder> I am trying to use that patched OpenTTD to import rivers into a heightmap
19:10:57 <Speeder> but they are all ending off by 1 tile or so
19:13:08 <Speeder> can someone explain to me how OpenTTD heightmap coordinates work exactly?
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19:36:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne opened pull request #143: Add: Script to format the changelog for TT-Forums https://git.io/JfRax
19:37:19 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Ok, so I spent longer dealing with silly edge-cases than it would take to hand-format every changelog for the next decade, but whatever
19:38:16 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #143: Add: Script to format the changelog for TT-Forums https://git.io/JfRVe
19:43:44 <andythenorth> we can try it on the FIRS changelog
19:45:47 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:52:29 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #143: Add: Script to format the changelog for TT-Forums https://git.io/JfRax
19:57:18 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #143: Add: Script to format the changelog for TT-Forums https://git.io/JfRax
20:00:58 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] TrueBrain commented on pull request #143: Add: Script to format the changelog for TT-Forums https://git.io/JfRwJ
20:01:22 <TrueBrain> sorry, I am getting emails about NML, no clue why .. sometimes I have a hard time resisting :P
20:01:59 <TrueBrain> latter is a result of the first, not the other way around :P
20:05:05 <DorpsGek> frosch123: yexo was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 20 hours, 54 minutes, and 4 seconds ago: <Yexo> Speeder: 4th post has a zip with both .nut files
20:05:27 <TrueBrain> you already miss him?! :o
20:06:36 <frosch123> i missed him for 8 years?
20:06:51 <frosch123> anyway, i shove some more bananas stuff onto him
20:07:17 <frosch123> there is a shared noai account by fanioz and yexo
20:07:37 <TrueBrain> the days of shared accounts is kinda over yeah :D
20:09:34 <frosch123> i wonder whether "noaic" is derived from "ottdc" :)
20:10:59 <frosch123> ah, we assigned the other libs to yexo/zuu
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20:51:12 <_dp_> why can DEBUG(desync, 2, not print anything if I have -d desync=2 ?
20:51:21 <_dp_> fprintf next to it is printing fine
20:51:59 <frosch123> desync debug is redirected to commands-out
20:54:46 <_dp_> not the most obvious place I must say :p
21:13:34 <andythenorth> we got Friday TrueBrain
21:18:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: did you know that pm thinks you read mails :p
21:20:17 <frosch123> i saw earlier that pm invited a bunch of people to gh' coop org. one invitation expired after weeks :)
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21:22:23 <frosch123> TrueBrain: assuming eints wanted to store 50MB sqlite somewhere for backup (written when some cron-like job feels like it, read when the container restarts). is s3 the right thing for that?
21:23:48 <nielsm> I think a private s3 bucket is good for that yes
21:24:05 <nielsm> and transfer between s3 and other aws services is free iirc
21:24:19 <frosch123> while the translation history is available from the git history, the info about "translation is still good, even though english changed" is not, so needs persistent storage somewhere
21:24:50 <TrueBrain> does that also means we cannot run 2 eints instances with the same data?
21:24:54 <TrueBrain> (for load distribution?)
21:25:55 <andythenorth> I stopped reading mail around 2012 or so
21:26:12 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i don't know how to synchronise two people eidting in parallel
21:26:12 <andythenorth> phone me if there's an email I need to read :P
21:26:46 <frosch123> TrueBrain: unless you want a real db server
21:26:56 <frosch123> but i assumed we committed to file storage
21:27:09 <TrueBrain> we can use dynamodb if there is not that much data
21:27:15 <TrueBrain> just something that is very nice to have
21:27:18 <frosch123> andythenorth: i know, i just was surprised that pm didnt
21:28:13 <andythenorth> can every string have it's own file? :P
21:28:31 * andythenorth Terrible Solutions Incorporated
21:28:39 <frosch123> andythenorth: i wrote a script that fetches full translation history from git, and dumps it into sqlite
21:28:48 <andythenorth> that sounds a bit proper
21:28:59 <frosch123> takes 6 minutes for ottd :p other projects are neglible
21:29:11 <frosch123> and well, it only needs to run once
21:29:33 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #143: Add: Script to format the changelog for TT-Forums https://git.io/JfRKS
21:30:17 <andythenorth> I had an idea where the client fetches the translation strings
21:30:22 <andythenorth> no more grf releases for translations
21:32:57 <TrueBrain> frosch123: to add to it, bananas-api currently also cannot run with more than 1 pod at the time :)
21:33:54 <frosch123> TrueBrain: noone complained about coop eints being blocked from 16:47 to 16:57 every day
21:34:35 <frosch123> there is no load :)
21:34:52 <TrueBrain> no, the loading is not an issue at all :)
21:34:58 <TrueBrain> I meant the running 2 pods next to each other :)
21:40:39 <nielsm> andythenorth it sort of would make sense if grf's could get translations from external language files
21:42:01 <frosch123> implement container format 3, which excludes translations from the md5sum :p
21:48:02 <andythenorth> I wonder how many translations are pure trolling and swear words?
21:48:08 <andythenorth> or ads for servers :P
21:51:31 <frosch123> on ottd wiki that was simple
21:52:14 <frosch123> if it is is littered with phone numbers and external links, it's spam
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22:44:32 <_dp_> somehow I ended up fixing not the desync I started with but whatever xD
22:48:20 <nielsm> you accidentally the wrong bug=
22:51:15 <_dp_> changed link to a comment if that's what you meant
23:03:40 <glx> _dp_: I hope it's now detected in CheckCaches()
23:04:17 <_dp_> glx, yes, that's why I did repro for master only
23:04:28 <_dp_> for 1.10.1 it's more tricky
23:04:43 <glx> yeah 1.10 doesn't have the added checks
23:05:12 <glx> but we still miss many checks
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23:48:52 <supermop_Home> did anything ever happen with nml stations?
23:49:52 <glx> nobody working on it I think
23:59:32 <andythenorth> methane from gas well?
23:59:36 <andythenorth> or LNG terminal?
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