IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-05-14
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00:00:22 <frosch123> the commit checks had issues all week, maybe they run the next time
00:01:16 <Eddi|zuHause> mcbanhas: doesn't seem to be your fault
00:05:54 <glx> yeah something on azure side I think
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00:09:07 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/Jf4S0
00:13:23 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 commented on pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/Jf4Sa
00:16:24 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/Jf4So
00:17:45 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 commented on pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/Jf4Si
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01:49:08 <supermop_Home> what does the ttd maglev station look like? because the roof on the ogfx one is pretty dumb
01:50:03 <supermop_Home> i guess it is futuristic in the sense there is no way it would work as a roof
01:58:23 <supermop_Home> … so the same as the regular tto station?
01:59:02 <supermop_Home> really it should have a secondary catenary arch at the red lines
01:59:21 <supermop_Home> or be double curved like the green one
01:59:57 <supermop_Home> and the columns either much thinner, or the spaceframe much thicker
02:00:42 <supermop_Home> if the spanning members are all so thin there is no need for such thick columns unless its some 80s PoMo thing
02:00:57 <mcbanhas> I don't like the opengfx maglev station either tbh
02:01:54 <supermop_Home> the solution is to not use it, but i feel like its trying to hint at a complex space frame or tensile roof, so may as well do it right
02:02:46 <mcbanhas> why dont you design a new one?
02:03:11 <mcbanhas> or use any newgrf with alternative designs
02:03:21 <supermop_Home> the monorail one looks like a natural progression in style from the rail one
02:04:25 <supermop_Home> well its maybe an issue of principle.. advocating to replace the one in opengfx seems crazy
02:04:45 <mcbanhas> if you think the design could be improved
02:05:05 <mcbanhas> It's graphics, after all, it's a matter of aesthetics
02:05:15 <supermop_Home> because adding a new one via new grf is an option, and presumably someone drew the current one and might be offended
02:05:46 <mcbanhas> That's true, but that's a bad argument to keep outdated or poorly designed graphics
02:05:48 <supermop_Home> also many players have a new grf mindset of always add, more options,
02:06:05 <supermop_Home> and would want both the 'new' and the old
02:06:15 <mcbanhas> There's nothing wrong with proposing a change
02:06:32 <supermop_Home> so an incremental tweak of the current sprite would seem more sucessfull
02:06:33 <mcbanhas> There will always be someone that doesn't like it, it's inevitable
02:06:48 <mcbanhas> That sounds like a good idea :)
02:07:10 <supermop_Home> planetmaker do you still care for opengfx?
02:07:11 <mcbanhas> As they say in my country, you can't please both Greeks and Trojans
02:08:12 <mcbanhas> tbh I also wish there was a difference between railway and electrified railway stations
02:08:31 <mcbanhas> Merely because I think OpenGFX has a lack of old-timey stations :)
02:09:17 <mcbanhas> The earliest station already a looks a bit too modern for the 1930s
02:10:21 <supermop_Home> it looks positively Victorian to me
02:10:50 <supermop_Home> the monorail one could really fit from 1960 to 2060 in my opinion though
02:11:52 <supermop_Home> and architecturally could technically have shown up in the 30s at some worlds fair pavillion
02:12:29 <mcbanhas> Heh, maybe I'm simply not so acquainted with British railways architecture
02:14:29 <supermop_Home> but the maglev one is not just an odd architectural style, it is also drawn oddly
02:14:39 <supermop_Home> which is my main issue with it
02:15:35 <mcbanhas> Well just write a proposal. Draw some inspiration from the few real maglev stations out there.
02:15:51 <mcbanhas> At best it will be considered and put to a vote.
02:15:55 <supermop_Home> well they often do have weird spaceframe sheds
02:15:57 <mcbanhas> At worst, we'll get a newGRF
02:16:34 <mcbanhas> tbh I dont even know what one looks like
02:17:29 <supermop_Home> it might make more sense to draw a new more modest monorail station and bump the monorail one to maglev
02:17:52 <supermop_Home> actually the shanghai one is pretty basic technically
02:17:58 <supermop_Home> just an arched shed
02:18:45 <mcbanhas> I think switching designs would be confusing
02:19:03 <mcbanhas> what about the chuo shinkansen stations?
02:19:36 <supermop_Home> and the JR maglev station looks like a bus shelter:
02:21:02 <mcbanhas> It's still a test track after all
02:21:14 <supermop_Home> presumably once the build the rest of the route the major stations will get something nicer
02:21:21 <mcbanhas> Looks like you gotta have to look at some concepts
02:21:54 <supermop_Home> but most regular shinkansen platforms has pretty simple shed roofs
02:22:51 <supermop_Home> i real life passengers look at the headhouse from the street, not the roof of the platform from the air
02:23:06 <glx> hmm now I think the screenshot I linked used rail conversion tool
02:23:17 <supermop_Home> so its usually not the place you spend your architectural budget
02:24:28 <supermop_Home> this tensile awning is nice, even though clearly it is the entrance to a building not a platform:
02:27:05 <supermop_Home> from above it would just be a white oval though
02:27:51 <supermop_Home> and as Eddi|zuHause would point out, the more dramatic you make a building in game, the more ridiculous and tiring it gets to see it all over the map
02:28:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i did say such things occasionally
02:30:37 <supermop_Home> a subtle Renzo or calatrava looking thing might work though
02:30:44 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's not a problem with the extravagant buildings themselves, but with the limited amount of them available in the game
02:30:48 <mcbanhas> making it leaf shape wouldn't look bad tho
02:31:42 <Eddi|zuHause> if you build 100 stations in the game, you need 90 basic ones and 10 extravagant ones. if you only have 1 basic type and 5 extravagant types, then you run out of options
02:32:10 <Eddi|zuHause> extravagant ones lose their charm if repeated
02:33:03 <supermop_Home> honestly if the drag and drop default station just didn't have the big roof, and you have to intentionally build it, that might help a lot
02:33:37 <supermop_Home> 90 identical stations of plain platforms is pretty acceptable
02:34:03 <supermop_Home> every station having a big Victorian shed is kind of odd
02:34:16 <glx> ah no, quick checked in game, and indeed all stations have the same roof with dos and windows original
02:34:45 <glx> but I like the monorail version of opengfx
02:35:05 <supermop_Home> glx the tto /d shed roof could conceivably look both old and modern
02:35:40 <glx> anyway I can't use opengfx personally, I'm lost with the icons :)
02:36:13 <supermop_Home> i guess any near future large shed roof would probably just be a simple expanse of PV panels
02:36:57 <mcbanhas> I would try something leaf shaped for maglev. or tubular shaped, like the bridges
02:37:21 <mcbanhas> Everyday I cross the Sloterdijk station on my way to work and I love it
02:37:44 <glx> for landscape and buildings opengfx is nice, but the gui side I can't
02:37:54 <supermop_Home> everyday i walk from my bedroom to the other room for work
02:37:58 <supermop_Home> and i see no stations
02:39:01 <supermop_Home> mcbanhas that's the kind of building that could have been built from 1970 to 2070
02:39:07 <supermop_Home> so it works well
02:39:37 <mcbanhas> It looks a bit like the tubular bridge we have right now
02:39:43 <mcbanhas> you could essentially expand that concept
02:40:51 <supermop_Home> when we were still allowed to go the office, i walk by this station every day:
02:40:58 <supermop_Home> not much to look at
02:41:22 <glx> anyway once the station is built you can "repaint" it track by track to remove the roof :)
02:42:30 <supermop_Home> glx i used to do that to chop up the ttd roofs to make weird butterfly shapes etc
02:44:12 <mcbanhas> regardles, just try making an alternate station. It can always make a nice newgrf
02:48:02 <supermop_Home> slippery slope, start futzing with the pixels, then i'll be firing up rhino to model compound surfaces, then grasshopper
02:48:35 <supermop_Home> which i was doing til 5 last night freezing my computer many times
02:49:49 <supermop_Home> nurbs surface modeller
02:50:07 <supermop_Home> what i spend most of my work time in when im lucky
02:50:20 <supermop_Home> (photoshop and InDesign when unlucky)
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03:53:46 <Speeder> what is a good proportion of city/town?
03:53:54 <Speeder> or that is not really relevant usually?
04:57:57 <Speeder> what encoding openttd uses?
04:58:02 <Speeder> my script made my towns all have crazy names
05:41:39 <Eddi|zuHause> almost always UTF8
05:43:08 <Eddi|zuHause> however, if you use NFO to make a town name generator, UTF8 strings need a special character as prefix
06:24:39 <Speeder> after I saved the script in windows encoding it worked
06:24:51 <Speeder> now I need to figure out how to scroll back on the script log more than the default
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12:50:38 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: "Then all of these have to be changed for consistency, ..."
12:51:23 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, I'm still unsure whether I will keep the middle of sentence ones lowercase, as they don't refer to building names per se
12:51:32 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Which do you propose to change? It's not clear if that means de-capitalizing the depot strings or re-capitalizing something else
12:51:37 <mcbanhas> They refer to A train depot
12:51:50 <mcbanhas> Not THE Wartington Train Depot
12:52:39 <FLHerne> Well, as per my comment, I really dislike capitalizing Arbitrary Nouns in sentences anyway ;-)
12:52:52 <FLHerne> I know some games do it, but it annoys me :p
12:53:40 <FLHerne> (well noun phrase there)
12:54:02 <mcbanhas> I think that for resource names at least, it is important
12:54:47 <mcbanhas> But I think this is a good standard for building names: if a generic reference, lowercase, if a given name of a building, capitalized
12:55:15 <FLHerne> With the base cargos, you can see what it's carrying at a glance anyway
12:55:55 <mcbanhas> It's more of a matter of drawing your attention to elements in sentences.
12:56:55 <mcbanhas> Using lowercase for everything can make certain things go a little less noticed. This is why unit names and resource names tend to be capitalized in RTS and such
12:57:00 <FLHerne> Ok, but I don't think that's important enough for usability to overcome it looking horrible
12:57:12 <FLHerne> OpenTTD isn't really an RTS, the player's not in a hurry :P
12:57:15 <mcbanhas> It doesn't look horrible for me.
12:58:51 <FLHerne> andythenorth: ^ text formatting bikeshed argument?
12:59:19 <andythenorth> just don't make it worse
12:59:28 <andythenorth> not going to join you
12:59:34 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: My other objection is that the "...of some cargo" strings are provided by grfs
12:59:59 <FLHerne> So if you're using ECS, FIRS, etc. you'll end up with half being capitalized and half not
13:00:35 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Oh well, we shall do without your expertise in silly questions :-(
13:04:02 <mcbanhas> Again, I think changing style rules doesn't fall into the same scope as breaking userland. Some mods already break textual consistency by having different capitalization of their own. There was a good example posted the other day here. https://imgur.com/a/Y7fpwjk
13:04:45 <mcbanhas> You can see on the vehicles window, the mod text uses sentence capitalization whereas the original text uses title capitalization
13:05:11 <_dp_> hm... I wonder if it's possible to make newgfr with sky instead of water and islands floating in it xD
13:05:18 <mcbanhas> This will always happen. It's inevitable, but avoidable, hence why there is a style guide now so mods can follow it too
13:06:21 <FLHerne> _dp_: It would all look a bit dull, because of water tiles being identical?
13:06:48 <_dp_> FLHerne, there can always be some cloud objects or smth
13:06:48 <FLHerne> You'd need to place a ton of objects or something to make fake clouds in the 'sky'
13:07:06 <_dp_> they can even be industries :p
13:07:10 <mcbanhas> You could place large clouds
13:07:36 <mcbanhas> And make them dynamic objects that move
13:07:42 <mcbanhas> Would be an interesting setting
13:07:48 <mcbanhas> Sorta like Zeal in Chrono Trigger
13:07:48 <FLHerne> Yeah, I keep forgetting NewObjects can be bigger than a couple of tiles, no-one does that
13:07:58 <FLHerne> They can't move, though :P
13:08:28 <FLHerne> Well, they could graphically drift around within their own area, but that would look a bit odd
13:11:34 <mcbanhas> Also, once we're done with style changes, it would actually be neat if a blog post could be made about it, so modders take notice of it and start writing their texts accordingly
13:12:38 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, right now I'm more concerned on how we should spell Game Script
13:13:09 <mcbanhas> Some people were saying "GameScript" or Game-Script"
13:13:18 <FLHerne> "Game script" doesn't make sense, and "game script" doesn't stand out enough
13:13:25 <mcbanhas> I don't entirely oppose the former given it woul go along well with NewGRF
13:13:54 <andythenorth> for better or worse
13:14:07 <FLHerne> "GameScript" as TrueBrain pointed out isn't used anywhere atm, and we don't really need *more* variations
13:14:25 <mcbanhas> >"Game script" doesn't make sense, and "game script" doesn't stand out enough <--- This is why I want to capitalize resource names ^^
13:14:27 <FLHerne> And "Game-Script" was clearly invented by a German speaker p
13:15:05 <mcbanhas> Guys, I will leave this one entirely up to you
13:15:34 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: It's not obvious that "game script" refers to a particular type of thing, rather than just 'some sort of scripting for games'
13:15:50 <FLHerne> Whereas coal really is just coal
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13:16:29 <FLHerne> There's no special OpenTTD concept of "Coal" that players should consider differently from coal in general
13:16:54 <FLHerne> Which is why I dislike it, actually
13:17:18 <FLHerne> OpenTTD (especially the way I tend to play it) tends to be pretty realistic
13:18:22 <FLHerne> My trains aren't carrying the special OTTD resource "Coal", they're just coal trains :P
13:18:41 <_dp_> lol, I was just thinking that openttd can really use some fantasy settings xD
13:18:58 <_dp_> instead of being stuck in this weird realistic-but-not-really spot xD
13:18:59 <FLHerne> (you should probably ask someone else at some point)
13:19:15 <_dp_> except for bloody toyland xD
13:19:38 <FLHerne> I love the fact that no-one remembers that exists
13:19:55 <FLHerne> You could play "The Game", except you lose when you remember there's a Toyland mode
13:20:31 <andythenorth> oof so I just lost
13:20:42 <andythenorth> that's probably months or years you've ruined there FLHerne
13:20:53 <andythenorth> I'd even forgotten about the damn Game
13:23:12 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, it's important to make resource names stand out I think
13:23:50 <mcbanhas> Improves readability of relevant elements
13:24:11 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: You're never going to persuade me, so ask some more people ;-)
13:24:52 <mcbanhas> Can we decide upon a spelling for game script then?
13:25:18 <Borg> newgrf_storage.h: ClearChanges()
13:25:24 <Borg> I really.. dont get it...
13:26:44 * _dp_ thinks resources need icons
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14:21:25 <_dp_> first one may actually be the desync I saw yesterday
14:22:21 <mcbanhas> LordAro, do you prefer Game Script or GameScript?
14:32:32 <andythenorth> Game Script is better
14:32:40 <andythenorth> despite what I said earlier about official docs
14:33:28 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #142: Fix #139: Make --cache-dir work and don't create a directory when --no-cache is given. https://git.io/JfBW2
14:33:54 <mcbanhas> I can fix that wiki doc
14:33:56 <LordAro> mcbanhas: yeah, Game Script is better
14:34:37 <andythenorth> I think that wiki page has a full bingo board
14:34:52 <andythenorth> every possible permutation of Gamescript Game Script gamescript etc
14:35:41 <mcbanhas> LordAro, alright. I'll just do some extra changes to building name capitalization and then submit one more version, which hopefully will be the final one
14:36:00 <mcbanhas> (for the capitalization changes that is)
14:36:25 <mcbanhas> Then batch two with all the rewrites will be pushed afterwards. It's gonna be fun.
14:37:00 <FLHerne> LordAro: Do you have an opinion on capitalizing cargo names?
14:37:33 <FLHerne> I strongly dislike "137 tons of Coal", but mcbanhas is equally adamant that it's necessary
14:37:49 <andythenorth> well I won't be changing FIRS for that
14:37:52 <FLHerne> So needs a tie-breaker
14:37:54 <andythenorth> it's not worth a proper noun
14:38:12 <LordAro> yeah, it is a bit odd like that
14:38:14 <andythenorth> I go back and forth in changelogs etc on capitalising cargos and industries
14:38:30 <LordAro> i get the argument, but yeah, 'coal'
14:38:44 <mcbanhas> technically you only have to change the capitalization in game andythenorth
14:38:48 <andythenorth> in a changelog I would write 'New cargo: Coal'
14:38:52 <mcbanhas> documentation you can write whatever you want
14:39:03 <andythenorth> but I would also write: 'Icons for coal, steel, sheep' etc
14:39:14 <andythenorth> very inconsistent
14:39:35 <Samu> when in doubt, capitalize everything
14:39:36 <FLHerne> Oh, capitalization after a colon was the other thing we disagreed about and haven't already settled
14:40:36 <FLHerne> There's a change "Warning: Server administrators may..." to "Warning: server administrators may...", and that just looks wrong to me
14:40:54 <FLHerne> Although it's true that some manuals of style prefer the latter
14:40:57 <andythenorth> I thought GB English settled that one
14:41:08 <andythenorth> I was never aware of it being ok to capitalise non-nouns there
14:41:15 <andythenorth> I didn't really do English in school though
14:41:35 <FLHerne> Well, it's a noun phrase :P
14:41:40 <andythenorth> I didn't really do school
14:41:46 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, I'm with the most manuals of style on that one: you don't capitalize after a colon unless it's a title or a paragraph break
14:41:50 <FLHerne> "Server administrators", I mean
14:42:17 * andythenorth school attendance GCSE year: 50%
14:42:26 * andythenorth found school boring
14:42:34 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: I looked at Chicago, it also says "introduces more than one sentence" or so
14:42:37 <FLHerne> Of course, this is one
14:42:57 <mcbanhas> Can you show me the link
14:43:26 <FLHerne> s/more than one/two or more/, so same meaning
14:44:20 <mcbanhas> I can't open that. You have paid subscription?
14:44:35 <mcbanhas> oh wait there's a 30 day free trial
14:45:45 <FLHerne> (so we have to get this done within 30 days :D)
14:45:59 <FLHerne> Well, 29, because I subscribed yesterday to see what it said
14:51:12 <mcbanhas> It's not introducing two or more sentences in this case though.
14:51:50 <FLHerne> The mystery was explained: The impala
14:51:51 <FLHerne> on the menu was an animal, not a car. The British would treat this
14:51:53 <FLHerne> as a simple sentence with only an initial capital letter.
14:52:23 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Ok, I think the written authorities are conclusively on your side here also
14:53:13 <mcbanhas> I wish I would've finished the chapter on punctuation now.
14:53:25 <FLHerne> ^that follows "When a colon precedes a full sentence or question rather than a phrase, Americans sometimes follow the colon with a capital letter."
14:53:35 <FLHerne> in andythenorth's link
14:53:39 <mcbanhas> andythenorth, thank you for the link, this is a very nice resource.
14:54:17 <andythenorth> I own the actual book paid for several times over, I don't feel bad sharing that PDF :)
14:54:17 <mcbanhas> Yeah, I'm aware, but this is EN-UK language we're editing here.
14:54:37 <FLHerne> My quote was from p144
14:54:51 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Yes, that's why I said "Ok, I think the written authorities are conclusively on your side"
14:56:46 <mcbanhas> So what do you guys want for capitalizing resources again?
14:59:08 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: I think LordAro, andythenorth and I were all against it?
14:59:24 <FLHerne> I might be more vehemently against it than them though
15:00:41 <FLHerne> I expect frosch would be against it, given his previous opinions about NewGRF compatibility, but he's not here
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15:46:11 <Eddi|zuHause> <FLHerne> I strongly dislike "137 tons of Coal", but mcbanhas is equally adamant that it's necessary <-- as a german, i have no problem with that, but it doesn't look right for the english that i learned
15:49:53 <FLHerne> There's no question it's grammatically wrong, the suggestion is that capitalizing it makes it easier for players to recognize the information
15:50:34 <FLHerne> (which it probably does, but IMO not enough to be worth it)
15:59:23 <mcbanhas> There's is currently an inconsistency with some lines though, have a look.
15:59:35 <mcbanhas> This line STR_PURCHASE_INFO_ALL_BUT :All but {CARGO_LIST}
16:02:00 <supermop_Home_> really you could hand truck a couple barrels into the parcels area of those power cars
16:02:01 <mcbanhas> There's no way around this unless we produce a bunch of new, uncapitalized strings for every resource.
16:02:31 <Eddi|zuHause> you can already do that, with "cases"
16:02:49 <mcbanhas> supermop_Home_, as p/ the current events in the oil industry, definitely, haha
16:04:54 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8105: Fix: OpenGFX download link did no longer work. https://git.io/JfBuD
16:04:55 <Eddi|zuHause> not suggesting that this would be a route to pursue, but you can do "STR_WHATEVER" and "STR_WHATEVER.capital"
16:05:21 <Eddi|zuHause> with a bit of extra fuzz
16:06:01 <mcbanhas> Yeah that's what I'm saying, but that would mean adding more strings, and it would mean mods would also have to add a lot more strings, as opposed to just regularizing the use of capitals for resources
16:06:44 <Eddi|zuHause> this should have no effect on existing mods, or other languages
16:08:04 <Eddi|zuHause> but, i really shouldn't get involved in this discussion, as i'm not going to play the game in english
16:08:26 <Eddi|zuHause> and there's no question on how to do this in german
16:09:32 <mcbanhas> There's a third possibility
16:09:57 <mcbanhas> We make an uncapitalized string for every resource
16:10:26 <mcbanhas> And we make a generic STR_QUANTITY_ string
16:11:06 <mcbanhas> Although the plurals would have to be adjusted accordingly
16:11:59 <mcbanhas> Tbh it's much easier to just make resources capitalized and it comes with readability benefits
16:13:29 <mcbanhas> There is a fourth option, though
16:13:56 <mcbanhas> we can rewrite STR_PURCHASE_INFO_ALL_BUT with colons
16:14:27 <mcbanhas> So it would be something like All except: Oil
16:14:43 <mcbanhas> No wait, that wont do
16:14:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i also thought of that, but that is a design choice, not a style choice, and would have to be made consistent across all languages
16:15:14 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Doesn't that contradict the previous discussion?
16:15:44 <FLHerne> fragments after a colon should definitely not be capitalized
16:16:00 <FLHerne> (and the colon looks odd anyway)
16:16:10 <mcbanhas> Not necessarily. If introducing lists of items, capitalization after colons is fine. But it wont do for another reason. There's colons already being using in the UI label "refittable to:"
16:16:11 <FLHerne> Should just be lowercase there too
16:16:34 <mcbanhas> So that's out of the picture
16:16:39 <FLHerne> "All but oil" is fine
16:17:02 <supermop_Home_> FLHerne i would certainly expect list items following a colon to be capitalized
16:17:12 <mcbanhas> Then we need a bunch of new strings to make it lowercase
16:17:43 <mcbanhas> But frankly, just making resources capitalized makes more sense now
16:18:17 <mcbanhas> I was actually close to conceding to lowercase until I saw this string
16:18:22 <supermop_Home_> there is certainly a difference between the grammar taught in school that you might write a book with, and a functional style to produce a quickly readable UI
16:18:26 <mcbanhas> And maybe there are more
16:18:28 <FLHerne> I don't see why you need new strings for that?
16:18:51 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, look at how the string works
16:19:09 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/JfBzZ
16:19:37 <mcbanhas> STR_PURCHASE_INFO_ALL_BUT :All but {CARGO_LIST}
16:21:53 <planetmaker> Hm, do we accept new townname lists now all of a sudden? #8146
16:23:27 <nielsm> pretty sure that should be a newgrf
16:23:38 <planetmaker> that was my immediate thought, too
16:26:20 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker commented on pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names https://git.io/JfBzS
16:27:56 <LordAro> but since it wasn't altering an existing list...
16:29:33 <planetmaker> I don't think it sets good precedent. The existing lists are bad. Very bad for the map sizes we support. So starting with better lists (like this) will immediately spawn bug reprots and feature requests for the existing
16:30:38 <FLHerne> planetmaker: I don't really see why that's a problem, given that they're very bad :p
16:30:44 <planetmaker> IMHO the better approach would be to somewhat integrate the search for newgrf townnames even more closely... like tying in a content search for those where townnames are added (that's unfortunately in a completely different place than all other newgrfs)
16:30:55 <FLHerne> There must be *some* way to not break compatibility
16:31:04 <planetmaker> FLHerne, yes... NewGRFs ;)
16:31:22 <FLHerne> (e.g. the suggestion to use the existing list first, then any new components)
16:31:27 <mcbanhas> Then we gotta throw away all international list names.
16:31:35 <supermop_Home_> planetmaker or quietly improve some of the bad lists and strenuously deny that you ever did?
16:31:35 <planetmaker> But you must retain the lists which you ever implemented for eternity in order to keep savegame load capability
16:31:38 <FLHerne> planetmaker: But that gives a very bad default experience in most languages
16:31:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not opposed to adding new lists, but we should reconsider the idea to make snapshots of the current generators, and reimplement thtem in a futureproof manner
16:32:00 <planetmaker> improving means basically "add another with a version check for that language". That gets really messy quickly
16:32:16 <FLHerne> planetmaker: > (e.g. the suggestion to use the existing list first, then any new components) ?
16:32:42 <planetmaker> that's not how it works @FLHerne . There is logic in them. They're not just stupid lists
16:32:47 <FLHerne> The existing stupid names are a given, and just as bad in so-called "English" as everything else
16:32:56 <planetmaker> names are composed
16:33:17 <FLHerne> But still, there's a finite and enumerable number of composable names, which is the problem
16:33:32 <FLHerne> Most non-English languages have too few for current possible map sizes
16:33:53 <planetmaker> you can have composition rules as you like. It's not strictly countable nor is the number of elements predictable
16:34:08 <planetmaker> countable. But not finite necessarily :P
16:34:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not really true
16:34:44 <FLHerne> Having a fallback "the classic generator couldn't produce another name, so use a new one" shoul fix it without breaking old saves
16:34:57 <FLHerne> Er, how can they possibly not be finite?
16:35:28 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no loop system, it's always going to be finite
16:35:31 <nielsm> well I suppose max 4.2 billion is finite
16:35:44 <nielsm> (if enough compositions are provided)
16:35:50 <nielsm> compositions/components
16:36:00 <FLHerne> nielsm: For the hypothetical languages with 4.2 billion, there's no problem
16:36:11 <FLHerne> The problem is Finnish where there are 300 or something
16:36:13 <Eddi|zuHause> and you can always give an upper bound on the number of combinations
16:36:17 <nielsm> but yes it's possible to calculate the max number of names generatable by each generator
16:36:29 <FLHerne> Because that means large maps flat-out don't work with Finnish selected
16:36:41 <planetmaker> yes. But that means you cannot fix it in terms of logic
16:36:41 <FLHerne> (well, can't generate a suitable number of towns)
16:37:08 <planetmaker> because you need to keep the old for savegame reasons
16:37:45 <planetmaker> as not names are saved but indices into the generator logic
16:38:04 <FLHerne> planetmaker: Right, so only use the new generator for names beyond what the old one can generate...?
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16:38:12 <nielsm> TrueBrain: how about extenting bananas 1.5 with a calculator for townname grf's how many names it can possibly make? :D
16:38:30 <LordAro> also into the entirely wrong branch
16:38:34 <Eddi|zuHause> we need 2 things: 1) to make snapshots of the current generators, for converting old savegames, and 2) implement the system that future changes don't affect savegames
16:38:34 <planetmaker> :D I like that suggestion ^^^
16:39:01 <nielsm> I really think we should change towns to always store the generated name as text
16:39:18 <Eddi|zuHause> 2) would be achived by converting the seeds to text on generation, not on display
16:39:26 <nielsm> storing a generation seed made sense in 1994, it doesn't in 2020
16:40:17 <planetmaker> You are totally right. Because then... Townname NewGRFs don't even need to be part of the savegame
16:40:32 <planetmaker> which would be a win
16:41:05 <planetmaker> And as for townname generators: it might be possible to rip-out the old generators and replace them by NewGRFs which OpenTTD ships with by default
16:41:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that would be a side effect
16:41:31 <planetmaker> Then one could on that approach start to ship with improved generators at the same time
16:41:46 <planetmaker> without technical debt (provided names are stored in savegames)
16:41:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure converting them to NewGRFs makes a lot of sense. we don't do that for the default vehicles etc.
16:42:16 <nielsm> town name generators might need to stay with the save for games where you can found towns
16:42:17 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, I actually think it would be a good solution, too
16:42:33 <planetmaker> hm... founding towns. forgot that
16:42:37 <Eddi|zuHause> also, this would make it difficult to deprecate some of the old generators if we make new versions
16:44:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i think converting them to NewGRFs is an abstraction layer too far
16:45:27 <Eddi|zuHause> it causes all kinds of followup issues like, why do we include some NewGRFs and not others?
16:46:14 <planetmaker> would be part of base set. We do that
16:53:31 <mcbanhas> I think that whether or not content X is a NewGRF isn't an ideal standard on what should go with the core package or not.
16:54:56 <planetmaker> how do you define "core"?
16:55:05 <planetmaker> The core game works just fine as-is
17:02:13 <supermop_Home_> can the old bad generators just be changed to created towns like Madrid 2 when they run out of names?
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17:04:42 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 commented on pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/JfB2c
17:04:54 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home_: no, because often there are weights applied that make sure some names appear more often.
17:05:34 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home_: changing the semantics of that from "make sure this name appears on the map" to "clutter the map with only this name" is not a good idea
17:09:39 <supermop_Home_> how do town name newgrfs that concact name parts handle weights?
17:29:01 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, going back to ccapitalization, I agree with lowercasing the resorurce types, but we're def gonna need some new strings. Moreover, I found a similar inconsistency with industry names, and we're gonna need lowercase names for them too.
17:31:32 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: It looks like that's technically feasible
17:31:41 <FLHerne> But yeah, it might be a pain :-/
17:32:13 * FLHerne wonders why there's a whole lot of separate _SINGULAR_ and _PLURAL_ strings for cargos
17:32:40 <FLHerne> There's a better mechanism for that...
17:32:40 <mcbanhas> It's because of the wagon capacities
17:34:39 <mcbanhas> STR_FORMAT_INDUSTRY_NAME :{TOWN} {STRING}
17:34:55 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Normally you's just use {P y ies} or so, like in the quantities
17:35:23 <FLHerne> So I don't know why industries have a completely duplicated set of codes
17:35:56 <mcbanhas> yeah some cleanup seems needed
17:36:03 <FLHerne> Oh, maybe because they're included into other strings? I don't know if you can specify plurality there
17:36:22 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: ^langfile puzzlement
17:37:14 <Eddi|zuHause> {P ...} only works when you have a parameter that is actually a number
17:38:13 <Eddi|zuHause> so not if you're talking about unspecified quantities
17:38:23 <mcbanhas> Right now I'm concerned over the fact that the industry map legend is pulling industry names from strings such as STR_INDUSTRY_NAME_COAL_MINE :Coal Mine, which are fully capitalized.
17:39:08 <mcbanhas> whereas you got legend specific strings such as STR_SMALLMAP_LEGENDA_ROADS :{TINY_FONT}{BLACK}Roads
17:39:26 <mcbanhas> There should be the same for industries
17:40:51 <FLHerne> Duplicating all the strings for that purpose would make translation harder, though :-/
17:40:58 <mcbanhas> For now I'm gonna change all resource names back into lowercase so we can at least submit what capitalizations can be handled.
17:41:20 <mcbanhas> Not harder, only a bit more time consuming
17:41:25 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, if you want to vary capitalization, you should look at cases
17:41:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that should not affect translations
17:42:02 <FLHerne> Yeah, might as well go ahead with the obvious improvements, and leave the can'o'worms ones for later
17:42:22 <mcbanhas> So for now, unfortunately, there will be inconsistencies
17:43:41 <mcbanhas> Urgh, one question, wouldn't replacing the way some strings are built break mods though?
17:45:01 <mcbanhas> Say we have an industry mod that depends on STR_FORMAT_INDUSTRY_NAME :{TOWN} {STRING} to set its new industry names
17:46:04 <mcbanhas> We alter this format so it doesn't do that and instead builds industry names like "{TOWN} Coal Mine"
17:46:28 <mcbanhas> This would force modders to change their string format too, right?
17:49:01 <FLHerne> Hm, I don't know how to tell which of them can be used in Action0
17:50:01 <FLHerne> "In action 0 only a subset of the original strings can be accessed. These are more or less the string which have no additional parameters, e.g. plain cargo/house/industry names." <- i.e. changing parameters in strings that have them shouldn't generally be a problem
17:50:19 <FLHerne> But ask someone who actually knows ;-)
17:53:42 <Eddi|zuHause> that page is more about a list of mappings that OpenTTD bothered to match with the original TTD string IDs
17:57:51 <mcbanhas> Eddi|zuHause, right now the industry map is pulling its legend from directly from industry names. What I'm saying is that there should be legend-specific strings instead the same way you have for the vehicles map.
17:58:33 <mcbanhas> For instance you have STR_SMALLMAP_LEGENDA_ROAD_VEHICLES :{TINY_FONT}{BLACK}Road vehicles
17:59:05 <mcbanhas> There should also be something like STR_SMALLMAP_LEGENDA_COAL_MINE :{TINY_FONT}{BLACK}Coal mine
17:59:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd rule that out of scope of whatever you're trying to do now
18:00:01 <mcbanhas> For now, I have no other choice
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18:01:02 <Eddi|zuHause> there is always a choice
18:01:44 <Eddi|zuHause> every set of rules you come up with will be either inconsistent or incomplete (paraphrasing Gödel)
18:02:14 <mcbanhas> Only if we can avoid it
18:04:53 <nielsm> can we just close that spanish town names PR with "make a newgrf, it's very much okay to have multiple alternative for the same language/culture/region"
18:06:24 <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: yes-ish, but we should still work on the flexibility to deprecate the existing town name generators that are inadequate
18:12:26 <nielsm> lol the crash log says "Machine: Intel 80486"
18:12:34 <nielsm> I'd like to see you run macos on an actual 486
18:14:49 <FLHerne> nielsm: That was a thing, I think?
18:17:06 <FLHerne> "Achieving their deadline goal and receiving their bonuses,[4] the developers eventually reached a point where they could boot an Intel 486 PC (with very specific hardware) into System 7.1"
18:17:23 <FLHerne> And you can run OpenTTD on hardware from that era, I've done it :P
18:19:31 <FLHerne> I thought a couple of the licensed '90s Mac clones used Intel hardware, but apparently not
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18:58:08 <andythenorth> capitalising is fine
18:58:17 <andythenorth> like in the 'Requires:' list in industry window
18:58:32 <andythenorth> only difference is linebreak vs. commas
18:59:05 <andythenorth> no real newspaper would write Iron Ore
18:59:49 <mcbanhas> ok but then I'll have to change all of these too
19:00:48 <andythenorth> I'd say it's diminishing returns
19:02:39 <andythenorth> I'm very not minded to see the newgrf spec extended to support lower case cargo names
19:02:52 <andythenorth> it's already pretty tedious setting all the newgrf cargo strings
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19:28:22 <supermop_Home_> list items should always be capitalized
19:37:55 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 updated pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/Jf82n
19:41:42 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 updated pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/Jf82n
19:45:48 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:49:26 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8105: Fix: OpenGFX download link did no longer work. https://git.io/JfB6Y
19:49:54 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 updated pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/Jf82n
19:51:35 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 commented on pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/JfB6C
19:52:20 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Well, half the time they're already lowercase?
19:53:16 <FLHerne> STR_CARGO_NAME_BAUXITE :Bauxite
19:53:34 <FLHerne> STR_CARGO_UNIT_BAUXITE :{WEIGHT} of bauxite
19:55:04 <mcbanhas> We'll think about it some other time. This will imply adding a bunch of strings which will piss off some people
19:56:24 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Your latest push has some stray cargo capitalization changes (for two-word cargos)?
19:56:53 <FLHerne> "Iron Ore" -> "Iron ore", etc
19:57:14 <mcbanhas> Well yeah, bc that makes it consistent with the way you want it
19:57:55 <FLHerne> Hm, I'm not sure if that works in all contexts...
19:58:17 <mcbanhas> Ok but then we cannot have some strings with it capitalized and others without it
19:58:32 <mcbanhas> this is why I first want resources names to be capitalized.
19:59:03 <mcbanhas> IIRC these instances are only used in a couple of dropdowns and newspaper titles
19:59:24 <FLHerne> Yeah, e.g. in {CARGO_LIST} that'll give "Accepts: Coal, Iron ore, Copper ore" or something
19:59:39 <FLHerne> If I understand correctly
19:59:49 <mcbanhas> Ok but that's acceptable
20:00:00 <FLHerne> No, that's worse than either
20:00:59 <mcbanhas> Well I cannot simply capitalization on some and not on others
20:01:42 <FLHerne> Capitalized random noun phrases upset me, capitalized *parts* of noun phrases is just silly :p
20:02:26 <mcbanhas> Technically they are items on a list, they do not need to be fully capitalized
20:02:49 <mcbanhas> If you can find one instance of it appearing in a middle of a sentence, that's a different story
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20:03:07 <FLHerne> Yes, they need to be not-capitalized
20:03:21 <FLHerne> But half-capitalized is worse than fully capitalized
20:03:33 <supermop_Home_> andythenorth haven't done any grf work since getting this computer, is there a fast way to load the ttd pallete from the color table of an indexed file into your photoshop swatches?
20:04:01 <mcbanhas> It's not half-capitalized. We're simply applying title-style capitalizion to resource names
20:04:12 <supermop_Home_> FLHerne why would list items be not capitalized?
20:04:13 <mcbanhas> Say, for example, we're applying it to building names
20:04:21 <FLHerne> You can't do that, they're noun phrases
20:04:58 <FLHerne> Capitalizing just the adjective of a noun phrase is definitely wrong
20:05:24 <FLHerne> Hm, is that explanation remotely sane?
20:05:45 <supermop_Home_> information design is different from written grammar
20:06:17 <FLHerne> I think it is, given they're not at the start of the sentence
20:07:54 <mcbanhas> If the items of a list do not follow tile capitalization, this is how they will look in a list separated by commas. It's effectively the same as if it was a dropdown list
20:08:45 <mcbanhas> But then again, I can always go back to capitalize resources like I originally wanted. Saves me the trouble of eventually requesting for lowercase version strings
20:10:21 <mcbanhas> Plus like andythenorth confirmed, capitalized resources would look bad on newspaper titles
20:11:14 <FLHerne> I really don't understand what you're trying to say now
20:12:10 <FLHerne> If cargo names are lowercase by default, the obvious way to write such a list would be "Accepts: coal, iron ore, copper ore"
20:12:35 <mcbanhas> You're seing that field, as a sentence, not as a list
20:12:41 <mcbanhas> It's effectively a list
20:12:46 <FLHerne> And they wouldn't be capitalized in newspapers either, unless they happened to start a sentence
20:13:06 <FLHerne> Yes, there are implementation difficulties, which is why I thought we'd agreed to put this aside for now
20:13:12 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, they always do now
20:13:25 <FLHerne> The correct capitalization of "copper ore" is "Copper Ore"
20:13:45 <FLHerne> There's no situation in which "Copper ore" is right, except the start of a sentence
20:13:51 <mcbanhas> I will quote what supermop_Home_ was saying
20:13:53 <mcbanhas> information design is different from written grammar
20:14:03 <mcbanhas> You gotta understand this
20:14:33 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, OR at a list item
20:14:42 <mcbanhas> You gotta picture it as being something like this:
20:14:46 <LordAro> aren't you the one trying to force a consistent grammar on all strings, regardless of usage?
20:14:54 <FLHerne> The correct capitalization in a list would be "Copper Ore", like we have now
20:15:12 <FLHerne> (or not-capitalized, like I'd prefer)
20:16:10 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: That way is fine, because each line is pretty much its own sentence
20:17:19 <Speeder> openttd doesn't support diagonal rivers?
20:17:27 <Speeder> only stair-case shaped ones?
20:17:32 <Speeder> also no floodfill for rivers?
20:17:56 <LordAro> "floodfill" is done by the worldgen
20:18:00 <Eddi|zuHause> well, technically the river GRF can provide more diagonal-ish shapes
20:18:33 <Eddi|zuHause> but you can't place anything like a rail on the other halftile, like on shores
20:18:44 <Speeder> it would be extremely handy if I could hold control when placing rivers and it would floodfill the area
20:18:50 <Speeder> seemly like it happens on coasts
20:29:17 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, then you gotta pick whether you want messed up newspaper titles or comma lists that are not to you liking.
20:29:46 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: The newpaper titles [as they are now] are much less bad
20:30:22 <nielsm> the real solution is to replace all instances of cargo names with icons
20:30:28 <nielsm> uh... sorry about thatr
20:30:42 <TrueBrain> now go sit in the corner :P
20:31:46 <FLHerne> nielsm: How is andy going to make 64 different tiny FIRS-cargo icons that are all easily distinguished? :-/
20:31:55 <FLHerne> He's good, but not *that* goo
20:32:20 <nielsm> also that suggestion may not have been entirely serious
20:32:25 <mcbanhas> nielsm, not a bad idea. Not sure if it would fly with opengfx tho
20:33:13 <supermop_Home_> do 3 track lines ever provide any benefit?
20:34:20 <FLHerne> supermop_Home_: Not for breakdowns
20:34:38 <nielsm> mcbanhas: as FLHerne points out the major issue with it is newgrf support
20:34:51 <FLHerne> Sometimes you need two tracks for loaded trains and one for empty, if cargo weight multiplier is turned up
20:35:12 <FLHerne> 3 tracks through stations can make sense too
20:36:02 <mcbanhas> I do think power types (steam, diesel) should at least be replaced with icons
20:36:31 <mcbanhas> In practice it works very well in the XUSSR set
20:37:08 <Eddi|zuHause> mcbanhas: i have a feeling you get side tracked a lot :p
20:37:35 <mcbanhas> Eddi|zuHause, I feel like talking of something besides grammar
20:37:38 <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ did you get a palette?
20:37:45 <andythenorth> I have a .act file
20:44:03 <FLHerne> andythenorth: You still haven't done nuclear cargos for FIRS :p
20:44:48 <andythenorth> that UK Realism set has them though
20:44:54 <andythenorth> if you really want them
20:45:49 <andythenorth> probably not buying those
20:46:00 * andythenorth has gone ebay train mad
20:46:19 <andythenorth> dangerously I am now trying to recreate Iron Horse in OO
20:48:55 <FLHerne> Hm, last time I used my waterproof Kindle case, it leaked and I had to peel the Kindle apart to drain the water out
20:49:07 <FLHerne> So...do I want to risk it again? :-/
20:49:29 <FLHerne> I *think* it was just a misaligned O-ring...
20:56:39 <_dp_> I'd probably prefer icons along with cargo name everywhere
20:56:41 <FLHerne> So...does anyone want to actually play OTTD? :D
20:56:53 <_dp_> but need good icons, not those piles of random pixels there are now
20:59:18 <Borg> FLHerne: I play :) right now.. honestly..
20:59:36 <FLHerne> Borg: Oh, you made that?
20:59:44 <FLHerne> I was just looking at current BSPI the other day
20:59:56 <Borg> for now I play solo.. all seems to work.. correctly.. so I might spawn new server soon
21:00:08 <FLHerne> It's got some really interesting features. Great work! :-)
21:00:50 <Borg> yeah.. I added Fertility for organic industries as well... (a bit lerger pool)..
21:01:03 <Borg> so... even more chaotic gameplay now :D
21:01:09 <FLHerne> Does v2 have user-friendlier parameters (i.e. using Action14?)
21:01:25 <Borg> I should migrate it to GRFv8 then....
21:01:42 <FLHerne> Setting individual bits in parameters is a weird experience, it's like being back in 2008 :p
21:01:56 <Borg> hehe.. yeah. but there are just 4 options.. so its not that hard...
21:02:01 <Borg> unless I want to add more parameters
21:02:48 <FLHerne> I suspect many users don't know about adding bits together to set parameter values ;-)
21:03:18 <FLHerne> Not *everyone* playing OTTD is a programmer, just a disproportionately large subset
21:04:39 <Borg> yeah.. maybe I will migrate to v8.. then..
21:04:48 <Borg> but this mean shitload more testing...
21:06:18 <FLHerne> You could redo it all in NML, but then you'd have different problems :p
21:06:34 <Borg> NML requires python.. yuck..
21:06:40 <Borg> im happy w/ my pseudo NFO ;)
21:08:22 <frosch123> Borg: A14 is older than GRFv8
21:08:44 <frosch123> though I have no idea why you used GRFv7 to write something in 2019
21:09:06 <frosch123> GRFv6 for industries? that's rough
21:09:18 <Borg> well. dunno.. maybe because I always want to cover oldest stuff I can
21:10:11 <frosch123> also, not using nml for industrires :p industries are probably the strongest feature of nml
21:11:13 <Borg> frosch123: correct me if I am wrong.. but isnt NML a compiler to NFO?
21:11:55 <frosch123> yes, but there are things were a compiler is more handy than in other cases
21:12:10 <FLHerne> Borg: It can compile directly to grf, but pretty much yes
21:12:57 <Borg> yeah...well.. I prefer to work closer to the core ;)
21:13:05 <frosch123> nml's unique feature is the support for real expressions. and those are mostly used by industries
21:13:28 <frosch123> Borg: sure, but GRFv7 was developed for industries :p
21:13:47 <Borg> too late now to rewrite I guess :)
21:14:13 <Borg> but.. I once, for test.. changed GRFv6 to GRFv8... and all stuff worked...
21:14:24 <frosch123> hmm, actually, i think i got that order wrong.
21:14:40 <Borg> I just had to sanitize CBs results (8bit vs 15bit)...
21:14:43 <frosch123> industries made GRFv7 necessary for vehicles
21:15:05 <Borg> and fix.. cargoids.... AFAIR..
21:19:15 <frosch123> GRFv7 is early 2006
21:19:35 <Borg> frosch123: I remember I was confused by cargoids. GRFv6 vs GRFv8..
21:19:45 <Borg> so I decide to use v6.. as it worked..
21:24:23 <supermop_Home_> the stations need more trim i guess
21:25:25 <supermop_Home_> maybe some CC painted doors or window frames in the brick arches
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21:50:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i should not have checked why i put people on ignore lists...
21:51:41 <supermop_Home_> i assume it's because of my inane musings Eddi|zuHause
21:57:30 <Eddi|zuHause> no, but i checked whether i can now unignore borg because he switched to a sane NFO version. but turns out that was not the only reason why i ignored him
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continue to next day ⏵
