IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-04-07
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00:38:07 <_dp_> interesting, so with linear distribution pax/mail ratio changes
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04:46:14 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] tomstorey opened issue #8067: Toggling "Full animation" first glitches, then reduces vertical size https://git.io/JvAGj
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09:04:37 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8067: Toggling "Full animation" first glitches, then reduces vertical size https://git.io/JvAGj
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09:10:36 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Can't you Mac people just throw your laptops out of the nearest window and use something sane?
09:10:53 <FLHerne> Seriously, the weirdness of those bugs has been escalating for years now
09:11:00 <andythenorth> empirical evidence suggests no
09:11:39 <andythenorth> the problems come from supporting a platform that is (a) marginal for users (b) marginal for it's vendor
09:12:07 <FLHerne> (and I'm using a heavily-custom-patched desktop on a bleeding-edge Linux system on unusual obsolete hardware, so my threshold for 'weird bugs' is pretty low)
09:13:02 <andythenorth> mac is only ~18% of desktop operating system share
09:13:09 <andythenorth> and it's of no interest to Apple
09:13:25 <andythenorth> so the OS degrades regularly
09:13:25 <FLHerne> Apropos of nothing much:
09:13:28 <FLHerne> KDE bug 379093 in Spectacle (General) "Spectacle logs user out of the system when user clicks Export image > Share > Save as"
09:13:45 <FLHerne> > "As the maintainer of this piece of software, I have a very important question to ask: WHAT THE ACTUAL *^*&%&W*?"
09:14:25 <andythenorth> hmm, Mac user life was much better when it was 4% of desktop OS, and 90% of Apple revenue :x
09:16:22 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: sounds like an X server crash to me
09:17:31 <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of crash. i have this feeling that we had a crash in SelectCompanyLiveryWindow::GroupNameSorter before
09:20:36 <Eddi|zuHause> can't find any evidence of that, though
09:22:07 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] tomstorey commented on issue #8067: Toggling "Full animation" first glitches, then reduces vertical size https://git.io/JvAGj
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12:16:59 <Wolf01> Pfff, I'm already tired
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13:03:55 <rotterdxm> ola. moving in 2 days :) i trust all have been well here?
13:48:29 <andythenorth> rotterdxm on the one hand that's fascinating and great, and on the other it's like 'no shit?' :)
13:48:42 <andythenorth> physics can optimise for flows between nodes
13:48:51 <andythenorth> nice article though
14:11:44 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] floodious commented on pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination https://git.io/JvAom
14:22:35 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] floodious commented on pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination https://git.io/JvAo6
14:43:47 <andythenorth> FIRS Steeltown is really quite rad
14:43:53 <andythenorth> but the apex cargo is Vehicles
14:44:09 <andythenorth> and they just don't quite work
14:44:37 <andythenorth> they go to a vehicle dealer, which is a black hole industry
14:47:02 <andythenorth> I tried that, it's no better :)
14:54:02 <rotterdxm> then it´s inevitable that a black hole industry will exist at the end of the chain...
14:54:17 <rotterdxm> maybe the scrap yard production could be boosted if a lot of vehicles are sold?
14:55:15 <rotterdxm> maybe people trade in their old vehicles for new ones so it produces recyclabes or scrap metal
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15:02:46 <andythenorth> the weird things are
15:03:02 <andythenorth> - vehicle distributor is small (3x2 tiles)
15:03:07 <andythenorth> - amounts of vehicles are larg
15:03:54 <andythenorth> this is really a different problem
15:04:03 <andythenorth> 1. town cargos have no purpose
15:04:21 <andythenorth> 2. there's no mechanic to incentivise or force distributing across multiple destinations
15:07:16 <rotterdxm> so is it possible to have towns influenced by cargos delivered? yes. so maybe it is a requirement in steeltown economy for vehicles to be delivered for growth? perhaps not as a blanket redtext but as a variable
15:08:01 <rotterdxm> i mean it fits the setting of the economy, considering the cars are not exported
15:11:25 <rotterdxm> now that i watch the new economy desc... i see a few new industries. can´t wait to see what they look like
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15:15:40 <andythenorth> industry newgrf can't control town growth cargos
15:16:04 <andythenorth> it's a challenging problem, as it interacts badly with gamescript
15:16:12 <andythenorth> and historical game
15:16:20 <andythenorth> and newgrf houses
15:17:01 <rotterdxm> (not for you to implement, but for me to suggest)
15:17:24 <rotterdxm> OK good to know though. so... using a port industry specifically for export of vehicles?
15:17:37 <andythenorth> would it produce anything in return?
15:17:47 <andythenorth> I tried accept vehicles, produce scrap
15:17:52 <andythenorth> doesn't really work
15:18:14 <andythenorth> maybe it's just a graphical issue, vehicle distributor should be large
15:18:17 <rotterdxm> yeah i can see that. let me check the cargo flow
15:18:21 <rotterdxm> you could definitely do that
15:19:18 <rotterdxm> is In a Hot Country also going away?
15:20:48 <rotterdxm> so, checking the cargo flow. so the assembly plant makes farm supplies?
15:22:19 <andythenorth> ENSP and FMSP are quite freely available in Steeltown
15:24:55 <rotterdxm> i´m just surprised by the 3 cargos produced
15:25:03 <rotterdxm> but i guess that´s a new feature
15:25:22 <andythenorth> checkout the Wharf :P
15:26:18 <rotterdxm> and the bulk terminal too
15:26:31 <rotterdxm> i kinda like this one, even though i will miss the old
15:26:41 <andythenorth> I enjoyed designing for the limitation
15:26:46 <andythenorth> but this is definitely better
15:27:21 <andythenorth> the 3-in, 2-out was a nice puzzle game as a designer
15:27:30 <andythenorth> but didn't make a great industry transport game
15:27:42 <rotterdxm> i can see how that would work. it´s a puzzle
15:27:54 <andythenorth> it caused a lot of silly composite cargos, like 'metal'
15:28:12 <rotterdxm> as someone who uses ships most of the time, i am pleased by the increased importance of the shore based industry hubs :D:D
15:29:05 <rotterdxm> so you´d rather have very specific cargos rather than the more broad categories
15:29:37 <andythenorth> generally it's better, not 100% rule
15:30:01 <andythenorth> 'vehicle parts' works better than splitting up 'springs, seats, lights' etc
15:30:21 <andythenorth> but 'tyres' works better than including tyres in 'vehicle parts'
15:32:33 <rotterdxm> other than the vehicle distributor, any other sticking points for steeltown economy?
15:34:43 <andythenorth> it seems pretty good
15:34:51 <andythenorth> I have a test game running
15:35:06 <andythenorth> it has taken 60 years to complete the chain
15:35:25 <andythenorth> and I reset the date 3 times, so more like 75 years
15:35:35 <andythenorth> do you want a test grf?
15:36:03 <andythenorth> do you have a FIRS build? Or I can DM it
15:36:24 <rotterdxm> i don´t have a FIRS build, just the 3.0.12 GRF, DM would be great
15:37:10 <andythenorth> shout if it doesn't work
15:45:55 <rotterdxm> got it, tried it, it works. i am surprised by the vehicle compatibility
15:46:06 <rotterdxm> thought i would need updated sets
15:48:05 <andythenorth> you might get weird results with some sets
15:48:10 <andythenorth> should be mostly fine
15:49:21 <rotterdxm> i will try to break it in new and interesting ways. <3
15:50:03 <rotterdxm> i tried HEQS, Road Hog, Iron Horse and SQUID ate FISH just now, cursory glance at the vehicle purchase menu shows no anomalies. but we´ll see how it goes
15:57:52 <rotterdxm> vehicles required? did you implement it?
15:58:06 <rotterdxm> or is that a quirk of me using the tropical climate
15:58:27 <andythenorth> it's because there's no goods
15:58:41 <andythenorth> OpenTTD has no way to handle that situation
16:00:22 <rotterdxm> OK, going to have some fun with this :D if you want any graphics for the new industries that are using placeholders, i´m there for it
16:18:53 <rotterdxm> OK the road hog edibles tanker trucks can transport paints/coatings, acid, cleaning agents, coal tar and chlorine.
16:19:33 <rotterdxm> so i assume (and will check) if this is the case for other vehicles too. at least it´s better to have the choice than to not have a suitable vehicle
16:19:58 <rotterdxm> so the cryo plant... its production cannot be boosted. interesting
16:33:46 <andythenorth> edibles is a bit lolz
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17:17:14 <rotterdxm> interesting that the wharf has the exact same cargo reception as the builders yard, but without the benefits of producing stuff
17:17:51 <rotterdxm> other than it being a bit harder to keep the placeholder industries apart, this is fun and a whole new way to play FIRS
17:21:14 <andythenorth> the builders yard is just there for players who want realism of delivering to towns
17:23:57 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Can't you do an ECS and limit the amount of intake?
17:24:29 <FLHerne> (my memories of ECS are pretty vague)
17:29:58 <andythenorth> I can but it's annoying to players, and breaks AIs and breaks cargodist
17:30:29 <andythenorth> my preferred solution is to be able to define town growth cargos
17:42:34 <rotterdxm> well, i saw the vehicle distributor and the builders yard just spawned out in the middle of nowhere
17:42:37 <rotterdxm> but that does make sense
17:43:47 <andythenorth> they should be spawning 'near town' but the location check code is broken currently
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19:45:50 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:55:56 <nielsm> it just occurred to me that having 1.10 branch on old build system and master on cmake might get annoying
19:56:27 <glx> compile farm supports both
19:56:44 <nielsm> maybe not, since barely anyone will be building 1.10 branch anyway
20:01:13 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7193: Fix #6468: Load correct version of AI as specified during the time of its save. https://git.io/JvAFJ
20:09:14 <nielsm> trying cmake build for first time now :D
20:10:17 <nielsm> and it looks like it did not link zlib and more
20:11:17 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> 1.11 or bust :P <- add that 3D shit and do 2.0 :P
20:15:03 <LordAro> nielsm: as long as no one touches any build systemy stuff in 1.10, shouldn't matter at all
20:15:25 <nielsm> hmm how do I make it figure out where I installed vcpkg..
20:15:27 <LordAro> 1.10.1 should happen sooner rather than later though
20:15:46 <LordAro> nielsm: there's probably an (undocumented) variable you need to set
20:16:00 <LordAro> it's been a while, but the cmake gui was quite good at exposing them
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20:22:10 <nielsm> awesome, now vcpkg imploded on itself
20:22:40 <nielsm> I tried updating it and when it wanted to rebuild all packages it deleted them then failed to rebuild anything at all
20:25:50 <nielsm> okay figured out what I did wrong
20:32:27 <rotterdxm> woo that looks like a board game. i like it
20:35:36 <nielsm> built with clang instead of microsoft cl and it just worked
20:39:12 <nielsm> clang spews a ton of warnings about using MS language extensions though, in particular the "sealed" keyword which FINAL is defined to
20:39:25 <nielsm> that should perhaps check compiler instead of target OS :P
20:48:08 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/JvAbM
20:50:32 <FLHerne> LordAro: > Always allow building any available roadtypes < why?
20:51:20 <LordAro> because that's what was requested :p
20:52:06 <FLHerne> LordAro: The current behaviour is consistent with railtypes, tramways, and IIRC airports?
20:52:13 <FLHerne> And stops people building pointless stuff
20:52:40 <LordAro> some people wanted to be able to build roads without having road vehicles available
20:52:41 <FLHerne> I don't understand why removing that feature makes any sense
20:54:00 <FLHerne> How many games don't have road vehicles available, and why, and why would someone who wants to build roads play in one?
20:54:05 <Wolf01> Reply no.1: use the scenario editor
20:55:31 <frosch123> LordAro: are you still working on that PR?
20:56:42 <frosch123> as it is, it does not make a lot of sense to me
20:56:50 <frosch123> and it seems getting more complicated
20:56:56 <frosch123> so 1.10.1 without it?
21:01:46 <LordAro> yeah, i took the backport flag off it
21:03:22 <nielsm> and as expected, the clang (release) build is slightly faster than the microsoft c++ build
21:04:31 <nielsm> I'm getting almost 10% improvement in frame times on wentbourne
21:05:57 <nielsm> and the exe file is smaller too
21:06:08 <glx> [20:09:28] <nielsm> so spammy <-- that's because ninja uses the output to determine dependencies
21:06:52 <nielsm> glx actually I was referencing how it by default uses the -v switch to print full command lines for every build command
21:07:36 <glx> editing the json is easy anyway
21:08:34 <glx> and indeed I should really try to "install" when I rebase :)
21:09:23 <nielsm> can we change it so it defaults to the *-windows-static triplet instead of *-windows triplet for vcpkg?
21:09:40 <glx> yes you can do that in the json
21:09:48 <nielsm> no I mean so every developer doesn't have to do that
21:10:19 <nielsm> or otherwise change the install target so it also copies the dll files
21:17:39 <glx> dunno how mingw would handle that
21:18:44 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] FLHerne commented on pull request #8063: Fix #8055: Always allow building any available roadtypes, even if there are no road vehicles available https://git.io/JvANN
21:20:39 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/fhbqc
21:22:59 <glx> line 175 needs an update too I guess
21:24:17 <glx> minimum version for cmake is 2017
21:27:25 <LordAro> FLHerne: needs to go on the issue itself, really
21:29:32 <nielsm> glx: I'm not sure it makes sense to remove objs/, rev.cpp and ottdres.rc from gitignore during the transition period, but I think projects/.vs should be changed to just .vs/ since that will likely move to the root checkout dir for most
21:29:40 <nielsm> also CMakeSettings.json should probably be added
21:30:22 <nielsm> or is the intention that everyone should set up the build entirely outside the source tree?
21:30:26 <FLHerne> LordAro: IMO, the issue (crash excluded) should just be closed as "not a bug"
21:30:49 <LordAro> FLHerne: that's a perfectly valid opinion
21:30:52 <LordAro> put it in the issue :p
21:31:32 <glx> I configured mine to have subdirs in 'build'
21:42:38 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8063: Fix #8055: Always allow building any available roadtypes, even if there are no road vehicles available https://git.io/JvAAp
21:55:30 <glx> yeah I don't understand why we get this warning, we set the policy, we check it's possible to enable IPO and enable it based on the test result
21:56:00 <glx> and if we use cmake minimum 3.9 instead of 3.5 it works fine
22:02:44 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/JvAxM
22:02:46 <glx> I think it's a vcpkg issue
22:10:32 <glx> or more because the way cmake works, I think the toolchain is on a higher level so when we change the policy it doesn't see the new value
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22:28:56 <Samu> I accidentaly created a water pathfinder
22:30:01 <Samu> it builds aqueducts, it builds locks, it can use rivers and sea... still needs to check for ship depots and buoys
22:33:04 <Samu> I have a feeling it's incredibly slow though
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23:01:03 <andythenorth> can we [something something] give newgrf control of town cargos?
23:01:17 <andythenorth> also the house acceptance bug, is that a bug? :P
23:02:23 * andythenorth asking for friend
23:08:03 <andythenorth> houses don't use cargo labels for acceptance
23:08:25 <andythenorth> so industry grfs have to (1) put cargos in specific numeric slots (2) provide goods, food, mail in all cases
23:09:12 <nielsm> uh that does sound like a problem
23:09:45 <nielsm> and of a kind that doesn't have a good fix since it requires a spec change
23:10:16 <andythenorth> I didn't check if we have a GH issue for it
23:10:42 <nielsm> I don't remember seeing one, if there is it's closed
23:12:52 <andythenorth> I am too tired to write one today :)
23:12:59 <andythenorth> needs a pre-made test grf also
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