IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-04-06
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00:00:08 <nielsm> Samu how does the rest of the stack look when it crashes
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00:02:07 <glx> empty call stack is never a good sign :)
00:02:21 <nielsm> yeah that's a good indication that the stack is dead
00:02:25 <nielsm> program in a terrible state
00:02:39 <nielsm> and it's most likely a stack overflow here
00:07:18 <nielsm> if it wasn't past midnight and workday tomorrow I'd have written a proof of concept script that just forces a GC stack overflow
00:07:54 <Samu> just pathfind from a corner to another
00:08:11 <nielsm> it doesn't isolate the issue
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06:47:44 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8064: Unsigned integer overflow with extremely high cargo capacities in refit window https://git.io/JvNXr
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12:52:47 <Samu> rail pathfinder surprised me
12:53:05 <Samu> took only 70 ticks to go from left corner to right corner
12:57:50 <Samu> testing on a flat map is bad
13:17:14 <peter1138> Rail tends to have far less choices than road or water.
13:19:16 <LordAro> fill the map with rails, then try it
13:49:58 <andythenorth> could airport tiles gain a 'build on water' flag, similar to industry?
13:50:09 <andythenorth> seems that's all that would be needed for seaplanes?
13:53:30 <planetmaker> @andythenorth, depends on what you expect. Yes, you can make airports with water simulant and sea planes and just send the planes between the sea plan airports.
13:53:57 <planetmaker> But it will also allow you to send a boing 747 or an A380 to such sea plane ports and they will land just fine
13:55:00 <andythenorth> I can't say that limitation bothers me very much :)
13:55:19 <planetmaker> no, me neither. I mean... that's why I added the seaport to OpenGFX+Airports
13:55:46 <andythenorth> making planes understand water airports is so much more work
13:56:00 <andythenorth> have to have checks on orders, then if the airport is moved from land to water
13:56:07 <andythenorth> display in buy menu
13:56:11 <andythenorth> checks on auto-replace
13:56:39 <andythenorth> then we'd probably want to revisit small vs. large planes, because it's all instances of 'airport compatibility'
13:56:42 <planetmaker> I can imagine that it could work along the lines of airport type (SMALL/LARGE) does already exist to distinguish behaviour wrt planes
13:57:49 <planetmaker> could be a bitset for... facilities
13:57:53 <andythenorth> didn't have water object installed :P
13:58:10 <planetmaker> :) dangerous place to land :P
13:58:46 <planetmaker> when you hit the rock surrounding (how is it called? moore?)
14:02:10 <andythenorth> mole? breakwater?
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15:59:20 <andy> Hi. I have a specific old map I want to use for a server but it's been throwing NewGRF errors at me. I managed to get most of them but I'm still stuck with "town-buildings.grf" (42650104). Is there a way to replace this? I really only want the map and dont care about textures, is there a way to strip it back to default?
16:01:19 <andythenorth> andy is there a way to open it in the scenario editor, then save the heightmap?
16:01:56 <andythenorth> there are newgrf developer tools which should let you get past the grf error. Should be used with caution on a savegame but fine if you only want the heightmap?
16:03:53 <LordAro> oh no, the andys are multiplying
16:05:51 <andy> loading a heightmap seems to be generating one instead, 2 secs
16:06:13 <andy> ive used the developer tools to get it at least loaded
16:09:35 <andy> when you load a height map it pops up "world generation"? that right? why would i need to put in the map size if it already in the file?
16:11:01 <LordAro> andy: mapsize is not in the file
16:11:08 <LordAro> it's just a greyscale png image
16:11:13 <LordAro> you can size it however you like
16:13:07 <andy> OK, I only have the map in .sav file so cant load it in scenario editor?
16:13:22 <LordAro> they're the same format
16:20:36 <andy> loading a heightmap isnt generating the town names or locations
16:26:55 <LordAro> it's purely just the terrain data
16:29:41 <andy> ok so back to removing a GRF problem from a .sav or .scn?
16:30:00 <LordAro> you can't, i'm afraid
16:30:11 <LordAro> GRFs are integral to the save
16:30:18 <andy> if town-buildings.grf is the problem...
16:30:53 <LordAro> you might be able to find town-buildings.grf from other sources
16:32:00 <LordAro> it would be very amusing if that's the one you're missing :)
16:32:20 <andy> im assuming town-building.grf is textures for town buildings, there must be default town building texture for the OpenGFX...why can I revert back to that?
16:33:00 <LordAro> they might be brand new buildings
16:33:06 <LordAro> or it might do somethign else entirely
16:33:18 <LordAro> there's no way to tell, especially not from just the grf (file) name
16:34:03 <andy> "it would be very amusing if that's the one you're missing :)"
16:34:16 <andy> I'm scared to go any further
16:34:56 <LordAro> andy: just from the description of the GRF (and indeed my own memory of it) - it doesn't provide any functionality at all, it's just a separator in the GRF list
16:47:49 <andy> not sure if i used coop but it doesnt contain a town-buildings.grf anyway
16:50:56 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8065: Fix #8064: Incorrect display of refit capacity https://git.io/JvNpD
16:51:00 <LordAro> andy: scroll further down the page
16:52:18 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8065: Fix #8064: Incorrect display of refit capacity https://git.io/JvNpb
16:55:22 <FLHerne> (which is the link from LordAro's wiki list)
16:55:35 <LordAro> FLHerne: i was trying to avoid spoonfeeding :p
16:56:07 <LordAro> given all i did was google "town-buildings.grf"
16:56:22 <FLHerne> Google search is weird, though
16:57:08 <FLHerne> Hm, I find it fairly easily too
16:57:26 <andy> ive been round in circles with it
16:57:54 <andy> got that town-buildings.grf thanks
16:59:05 <FLHerne> Hm, grfid isn't the same
16:59:10 <FLHerne> At least for that version
17:00:14 <andy> yeah says its not a matching file
17:03:04 <FLHerne> openttdcoop did contain the found one, but apparently not the grfid you had
17:04:30 <FLHerne> andy: The only mention I've found of your ID is you asking about it here two years ago :P
17:04:37 <andy> any way to force it to load even if the id and checksum are wrong?
17:04:50 <andy> mate thats how i found out about the developers tools
17:05:02 <andy> a log of this irc on google
17:05:20 <LordAro> in which case, you'll have to recreate the scenario
17:05:28 <LordAro> heightmap will get you half the way there
17:06:28 <FLHerne> andy: Progress: Apparently the same grfid existed with a name of `newtown_415.grf`
17:06:39 <FLHerne> But the person looking for that couldn't find it either...
17:06:49 <FLHerne> And the only link I can find is an nginx 404 page
17:11:10 <FLHerne> But I get a warning "incompatible with this version of OpenTTD", which ???
17:11:40 <FLHerne> LordAro: Since when has OpenTTD been non-backwards-compatible with anything?
17:12:17 <LordAro> FLHerne: GRF container versions
17:12:50 <LordAro> i don't know details, but some really ancient GRFs don't load anymore
17:13:01 <FLHerne> LordAro: I know there's a new format, I didn't realize OTTD dropped the old support
17:13:42 <LordAro> i think (i'm probably wrong here) that it was just GRF v1 that was dropped
17:13:45 <LordAro> the new version was v8
17:15:06 <FLHerne> LordAro: Any idea which OTTD version that was?
17:16:18 <andy> load screen says missing files but find content has the town-buildings.grf with a green icon and "you already have this"
17:17:20 <FLHerne> andy: You might need to rename it to town-buildings.grf if you didn't
17:17:51 <FLHerne> and/or it's complaining because of not actually being loaded because of the incompatible thing
17:20:09 <FLHerne> Could you use grfcodec to uncompile and recompile the grf?
17:20:29 <FLHerne> (does current grfcodec understand ancient grfs?)
17:20:44 <LordAro> we're well outside my knowledge now :p
17:20:58 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8065: Fix #8064: Incorrect display of refit capacity https://git.io/JvNh7
17:21:33 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8065: Fix #8064: Incorrect display of refit capacity https://git.io/JvNpD
17:21:35 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8064: Unsigned integer overflow with extremely high cargo capacities in refit window https://git.io/JvNXr
17:24:14 <FLHerne> but then it recompiles it as v1, which isn't helpful
17:24:25 <glx> usually stuff is added to newgrf spec, not removed, so makes sense for grfcodec to be able to read old stuff
17:25:05 <glx> there's a flag for the container version IIRC
17:30:06 <FLHerne> glx: I tried passing -g 2, it doesn't seem to help
17:31:43 <andy> the NewTown.grf renamed to town-buildings.grf didnt work lol
17:32:26 <glx> ho you need to edit the nfo to change grf version
17:34:22 <FLHerne> andy: Yeah, it's too old, I'm trying to fix that :P
17:35:21 <FLHerne> ...apparently this has grf version 0
17:35:29 <FLHerne> I didn't think there /was/ a grf version 0
17:40:35 <andy> that's excellent thank you
17:42:33 <FLHerne> andy: It works, then? Great. :-)
17:42:38 <andy> no errors on that screen now
17:42:48 <andy> launching server says "Game Load Failed, NewGRF mismatch"
17:43:24 <FLHerne> andy: Can you upload the savegame somewhere?
17:43:54 <FLHerne> (and ideally whatever other weird grfs it has, because chasing them all down is a pain :P)
17:44:47 <andy> there was one thought that crossed my mind about half an hour ago...this map might be a well known map that i could just get the latest version of
17:46:25 <FLHerne> Unlikely, but I suppose it's possible
17:46:42 <FLHerne> Not aware of many of these scenarios that were actually updated much
17:49:29 <FLHerne> andy: There are a few UK scenarios in the content download
17:50:05 <andy> yeah seeing screenshots of them either in either content download or website would be handy
17:50:21 <FLHerne> No idea if any of them are *exactly* the same as that one, but does it matter?
17:50:54 <andy> 2 years later and im still trying to this map to play on a server
17:54:41 <FLHerne> andy: I get "savegame is made with a newer version", which ???
17:55:12 <FLHerne> Is this the original one, or one you've loaded/saved?
17:57:20 <FLHerne> andy: With current OTTD, it doesn't give me a newgrf mismatch error
17:57:40 <FLHerne> There's a "compatible version loaded" warning, which is expected
17:58:15 <FLHerne> And one of the grfs disables itself because it's loaded before UK Roadset, which is an error by whoever originally created this
18:02:06 <andy> yeah mate youve done enough
18:03:46 <FLHerne> andy: I don't think that was about your problem, but eh :P
18:04:21 <FLHerne> I'm still wondering if that savegame you uploaded was actually the original one?
18:04:38 <andy> orginal is all relative lol
18:04:48 <andy> i can find you the older save
18:04:54 <FLHerne> It says it's created with a very recent OTTD version, which makes no sense if it's ancient
18:05:53 <FLHerne> (1.10.0 or some similar dev version)
18:07:13 <FLHerne> So are you sure you haven't opened it, saved it, then sent me that version, or something similar?
18:10:22 <FLHerne> What OTTD version are you using?
18:16:40 <FLHerne> andy: Ok, that does look old
18:17:27 <FLHerne> andy: Again, that seems to work for me
18:17:43 <FLHerne> I get "Compatible GRF(s) loaded for missing files"
18:17:59 <FLHerne> Which is ok and expected
18:18:33 <FLHerne> And then "A fatal NewGRF error has occurred: This set must be loaded after the UK Roadset"
18:19:02 <FLHerne> Which has nothing to do with missing grfs versions, it would have happened when the thing was first created
18:19:29 <andy> can i change that load order?
18:19:56 <FLHerne> And since the affected grf "New Road Depots and Stations" only replaces graphics, it shouldn't break your game or anything
18:20:13 <FLHerne> If you have scenario_developer enabled, yes
18:20:26 <FLHerne> (your nonexistent warranty will be voided)
18:20:45 <FLHerne> But because ^, moving it is unlikely to break your game either
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18:24:53 <andy> map loads through for local game but trying to start a server give a newgrf mismatch
18:28:14 <FLHerne> andy: If I save the local game, and then use the resulting save for a multiplayer server, that works
18:28:29 <FLHerne> andy: Presumably multiplayer doesn't do the compatible-version lookup
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18:35:19 <andy> thank you for talking me through that...looks to be working
18:36:22 <andy> well there was some spoonfeeding I would hope you would agree that was not a straight forward problem
18:36:39 <andy> big fan of the community and game
18:38:57 <FLHerne> "find obscure grf with a different name to the original, decompile it, edit the NFO, recompile it, load game in singleplayer, save, load game in multiplayer" is a fair number of steps
18:39:36 <FLHerne> andy: If it *had* been the grf LordAro mentioned, it would have been spoonfeeding :P
18:40:09 <FLHerne> "find obvious grf, use that"
18:40:38 <andy> I can finally go eat...mission accomplished.
18:40:47 <andy> thanks again mate, plus a million karma points
18:41:00 <LordAro> weird that multiplayer doesn't do the version mismatch thing..
18:41:13 <FLHerne> LordAro: I thought that, but it actually makes sense
18:41:35 <FLHerne> LordAro: If each client used a different compatible version, that would be bad :P
18:42:10 <FLHerne> I guess the server could replace them before actually hosting
18:42:45 <FLHerne> But I can see why no-one's bothered to implement that
18:45:28 <Eddi|zuHause> narf... ran some testing with C:S, and what do they do? workshop deletes an asset i use from under my nose
18:46:33 <TrueBrain> today I found out Azure is "deeply sorry" for removing a few Azure Lab Service instances ..
18:46:37 <TrueBrain> so it could be worse ;)
18:48:26 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i probably have to redo everything i did yesterday
18:54:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i started to make the workshop a git repository, so i can restore such deleted files
18:54:21 <Eddi|zuHause> just need to find a way to automatically monitor and commit any changes
18:59:41 <Eddi|zuHause> problem is, each try takes 5 minutes to load, 1 minute to figure out it's not working, and 2 minutes to quit
19:09:44 <TrueBrain> okay ... I have to apply a new CDK to AWS ... this might invalidate all our certs :D Lets find out :P
19:12:14 <TrueBrain> okay, that survived :D
19:24:47 <Wolf01> Sooooo, do you resurrect people in Finland?
19:31:52 <TrueBrain> I am going to attempt to upgrade our ECS cluster .. this might result in total downtime
19:31:55 <TrueBrain> just so I have mentioned it :P
19:39:48 <TrueBrain> w00p; that works :) without downtime :D (well, DorpsGek_III reconnected, but that is not resolvable)
19:48:08 <ja> i found the list of scenarios on the wiki, but it has no ratings or anything
19:48:29 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, we don't have a rating system
19:48:40 <ja> so i'll have to ask for recommendations :P
19:49:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think we're qualified to do that :p
19:49:04 <FLHerne> Does "all scenarios are terrible" count?
19:49:27 <FLHerne> I can see the appeal for duplicating real places, I suppose
19:49:29 <Eddi|zuHause> the USA scenario is pretty good, i think. that's the only one i ever tried
19:49:57 <Eddi|zuHause> and there was this "cindini" map that was popular for no apparent reason
19:50:16 <FLHerne> It had a really good screenshot thread
19:50:20 <ja> it is included in the install, isn't that why? there are only 3 scenarios, and one of them doesn't load (needs newgrfs)
19:51:07 <Eddi|zuHause> would be news to me that any scenarios are included in the install
19:51:09 <FLHerne> I don't think any scenarios are included in the install?
19:51:17 <ja> i just find that the randomly generated maps lack surprising features that real cities have
19:52:14 <ja> FLHerne: i wonder where the scenarios i have come from :O maybe i downloaded them long ago and forgot? :O
19:52:33 <ja> i will check out the USA scenario, thanks Eddi
19:53:13 <FLHerne> I usually generate several maps until I get one that looks good
19:54:36 <FLHerne> Mountainous, rough, high variety distribution, medium sea level, max height at 32 are my preferred settings for interesting maps
19:55:14 <FLHerne> The high variety distribution means you get distinct flat areas and hilly regions
19:57:50 <FLHerne> It looks nicer with trees of course
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20:14:31 <ja> it seems like maps can be categorized into idiomatic ones like in your screenshots, and 'realistic' with a billion tiny hills and tiny villages that is so much work to play in comparison
20:27:00 <andythenorth> FLHerne that looks unfortunately like FIRS Extreme? :P
20:39:03 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Yes, and you'll tear it from my cold dead hands
20:39:33 <FLHerne> ja: Depends on what scale you choose to imagine the world at, I think
20:40:23 <FLHerne> ja: I find maps with lots of towns unrealistic, the distance between them is too small relative to the size
20:41:10 <FLHerne> And, as you say, 'lots of tiny hills' which in gameplay terms means they have no effect
20:41:28 <FLHerne> Big hills force you to actually build around/through them in a realistic way
20:42:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, large maps with few towns
20:42:37 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have some actual space to build train infrastructure where the trains can reach their max speed
20:42:48 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I've said before -- I think the gameplay style of Steeltown is fun, but thematically it's no good for a postcard game
20:43:36 <andythenorth> it's very linear
20:43:50 <FLHerne> andythenorth: And Temperate Basic is, not really too *small*, but not interconnected enough
20:44:01 <andythenorth> we'll see what new ones I can devise
20:44:09 <andythenorth> takes 2-3 years though, oof :(
20:51:45 <FLHerne> andythenorth: tbh, I don't understand what you have against Extreme
20:52:28 <FLHerne> And it's a lot of fun putting all the links together during a long game
20:54:09 <andythenorth> I can list objections :) But I doubt I'll convince you :)
20:56:04 <andythenorth> but most of all, Extreme was designed in a different era, with 32 cargos and 3 accept / 2 produce per industry
20:56:15 <andythenorth> and it doesn't survive just adding 'moar cargos'
21:00:37 <FLHerne> I don't see any need for >32 cargos
21:01:43 <FLHerne> Adding more cargos /decreases/ the interconnectivity, all else being equal
21:03:10 <FLHerne> The pity-the-dot-layouter graph is what makes it more interesting than Basic's collection of mostly-independent linear chains
21:03:44 <andythenorth> I got bored of the gameplay around 'where shall I send these chemical'
21:03:59 <andythenorth> Steeltown removes those choices, for better or for worse
21:04:12 <andythenorth> it isn't bad gameplay, I've just played it to death
21:04:22 <FLHerne> And from a model-train PoV, dealing with >5 cargoes at one industry would make it very hard to build a workable station that didn't look silly
21:04:32 <andythenorth> it does present challenges
21:04:40 <FLHerne> If only the game had an option to make such decisions for you?
21:05:15 <FLHerne> But no, the decisions are kind of the point
21:05:39 <FLHerne> If you don't want to make decisions about your industries, why bother having more than the stock dozen industries?
21:05:59 <FLHerne> They're all interchangeable for the purpose of moving stuff from A to B
21:06:08 <andythenorth> mostly as an excuse for more model train wagon types
21:06:26 <FLHerne> Well, there's that :D
21:08:45 <andythenorth> I feel I haven't covered UK steel wagons enough yet :P
21:09:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i need a better train AI in C:S, one that uses both tracks of a cargo station equally...
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21:10:08 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ya-isakov commented on issue #8029: Black screen on SDL2-enabled OpenTTD, Sway and SDL_VIDEODRIVER=wayland https://git.io/Jv23P
21:10:32 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no war stuff in openttd
21:10:58 <andythenorth> agree, but it's converted to carry steel
21:11:22 <Eddi|zuHause> so what does that do any different from a stake wagon, then?
21:11:50 <andythenorth> it has a 1 pixel lower chassis :P
21:12:39 <FLHerne> I'm kind of amazed how strictly 3rd-party grf devs have followed that
21:13:45 <FLHerne> I can't think of a single grf with anything remotely military-related
21:14:45 <FLHerne> The irony is that the original game has multiple disasters where the military and/or aliens blow something up
21:16:39 <FLHerne> > Provide a game that is free from war themes and conflict
21:16:54 <FLHerne> > A Military Helicopter will appear on the map and travel in a straight line towards the factory on its line of movement, and will fire rockets at it, causing the factory to be destroyed.
21:17:38 <FLHerne> Mission statement not achieved
21:18:09 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Does FIRS 4 have nuclear power yet?
21:18:18 <andythenorth> no, should it? :)
21:18:19 <FLHerne> All these flask wagons look quite interesting
21:18:30 <andythenorth> I wouldn't rule it out
21:18:45 <FLHerne> And have strange formations with multiple locos and mixed wagons/guard carriages
21:18:46 <andythenorth> I think it would need cargo units in tonnes
21:18:53 <andythenorth> rather than flasks or rods :P
21:19:28 <FLHerne> FNA wagon: capacity: 1 flask
21:19:42 <andythenorth> give it a heavy weight?
21:19:47 <FLHerne> Production/month: 2 flasks
21:19:59 <glx> pff I can't watch twitch, every channel I'm used to watch are 1080p60 source only
21:20:05 <FLHerne> The order-of-magnitude difference to everything else would be funny :P
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21:54:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think this train stuff is working right :/
22:00:18 <supermop_Home> put the locomotive in front
22:04:35 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes game puts it on the back
22:04:47 <Eddi|zuHause> can't really do anything about that
22:16:08 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
22:16:08 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
22:21:32 <Samu> I decided to test all road pathfinders as i find them
22:21:53 <Samu> have to extract them from AIs :| boring task
22:23:21 <Samu> the one i implemented for my AI, is 2nd slowest
23:00:16 <Eddi|zuHause> thinking my trains are actually running ok? sounded too good to be true :p
23:23:01 <_dp_> hm... a lot of desyncs on reddit 1.10.0....
23:41:41 <_dp_> same person desyncs on mac 10.11 but plays fine on win xp vm
23:42:38 <_dp_> hope someone with mac can make a better report ;)
continue to next day ⏵
