IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-04-02
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00:39:43 <LordAro> should be able to work that in pretty easily
00:39:44 <glx> for now it's just a hack in regression workflow
00:40:45 <glx> hmm I could rebase the branch to trigger a build
00:43:29 <glx> so we have testable artifacts
00:49:23 <TrueBrain> LordAro building github actions :o
00:50:38 <TrueBrain> Nml is not the easiest to start with :p
00:52:27 <glx> ok standalone artifacts seem to still work (very slow to start, but it's expected)
01:10:13 <glx> hmm for windows it may be better to generate a win32 standalone exe
01:10:40 <LordAro> "better" is subjective
01:11:03 <LordAro> i'd personally be perfectly happy to tell all the 3 remaining people using a 32bit windows that they need to upgrade
01:11:08 <LordAro> or build it themselves
01:19:46 <glx> btw regression is configured for win32
01:21:05 <LordAro> milek7: i can't imagine there's many more than that that also use nml
01:21:31 <glx> milek7: newgrf authors on win32 windows using the standalone exe are very rare I think
01:22:59 <glx> most of active authors probably already have python installed to use the dev version
01:31:02 <milek7> btw. you don't have problem of various "antiviruses" going off on nsis installers?
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01:32:17 <glx> not tested the installer recently
01:37:32 <milek7> I guess it's fine if forums aren't flooded with 'beware, it's trojan!!1' after each release
01:38:51 <milek7> we have such problem with train simulator (and magically it goes away if it's code signed, feels almost like extortion)
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09:03:46 <andythenorth> oof why doesn't javascript? :)
09:08:32 <andythenorth> lol I have crashed my browser with a javascript list
09:08:39 <andythenorth> what a great language it is
09:56:48 * andythenorth working on vehicle details pages
09:57:03 <andythenorth> also added random train sprites in the header
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11:04:59 <andythenorth> need to format the pages
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13:35:44 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] mikrosk commented on pull request #7326: Remove MorphOS / AmigaOS / BeOS support and libtimidity support https://git.io/JvFUD
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13:43:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7326: Remove MorphOS / AmigaOS / BeOS support and libtimidity support https://git.io/JvFTm
13:46:22 <arikover> andythenorth: Can anyone help? Even without that much NewGRF experience and nearly none in nmlc?
13:46:47 <arikover> andythenorth: "Could I help?" is what I mean.
13:51:21 <andythenorth> arikover how much nml have you written?
13:52:18 <rotterdxm> I could potentially add some text to the NML objects documentation on the wiki... it´s very barebones and i found some quirks and things which were not mentioned there
13:52:42 <andythenorth> the most useful thing for drive-by contributions would be expanding the examples
13:53:12 <andythenorth> these could then be used as test case grfs when debugging OpenTTD / nmlc, and for testing docs are true
13:53:40 <andythenorth> they don't need to be 100% of everything, but more is better
13:58:18 <arikover> andythenorth: I tried doing a signal set in nml, a while ago... It... worked.
14:00:13 <arikover> Then I gave NFO a try, and made a lot of tests. I released 2 of them I think: a NARS override and Town names. No graphics.
14:02:45 <arikover> andythenorth: It would be for the docs, right? Or is there coding also involved? And what about grfcodec? Is it maintained? Need help here as well?
14:02:54 <arikover> andythenorth: So many questions.
14:06:28 <andythenorth> grfcodec generally doesn't need much maintenance, and it's generally ok. When it does need changes, it's hard to work on unless you really know what you're doing
14:06:53 <andythenorth> the nml examples are nml files in the nml repo that can be compiled
14:07:02 <andythenorth> they act as helpful test cases
14:07:10 <andythenorth> they would need coding
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14:09:45 <arikover> andythenorth: and nforenum? Does it work with NRT, now? And what about the NewGRF docs you mentioned in your post? Should they be updated as well? For NFO and NML?
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14:10:06 <andythenorth> I can never remember if nforenum is dead or not
14:11:04 <andythenorth> seems we support it I think
14:11:46 <andythenorth> (nforenum is in the grfcodec repo)
14:12:42 <andythenorth> it was a lot of work :)
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15:07:30 <FLHerne> > Investigators arrested a California train engineer Tuesday after he allegedly derailed a train in a bid to crash into the USNS Mercy, the hospital ship...
15:13:42 <FLHerne> When does FIRS get a 'military equipment' cargo?
15:14:17 <FLHerne> Would be interesting to look at
15:18:32 <andythenorth> outside the theme innit :)
15:18:41 <andythenorth> unless it was 'civil defense'
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15:24:12 <Samu> spain is surpassing italy in number of cases
15:35:02 <rotterdxm> some of the new mediterranean buildings, with new doodad sprites by Cpt.Klutz
15:36:43 <Samu> why do you ppl still draw 8 bit stuff
15:36:53 <Samu> if there's 32-bit and 4x zoom
15:37:13 <rotterdxm> because i like the aesthetic
15:41:55 <LordAro> Samu: also, drawing a small number of pixels is an awful lot easier than making a full 3d render (which is basically necessary for 32bpp-ez)
15:42:39 <rotterdxm> not to mention out of all the GRFs i use, only a handful support 32bpp
15:54:26 <Samu> this._closed.AddItem(tile, ~0);
15:54:40 <peter1138> It's the ~ operator.
16:00:21 <Samu> i wasn't used to seeing it being used on an integer
16:04:09 <FLHerne> What else would you use a bitwise not on?
16:05:11 <peter1138> Would it be operating on the variable, or the value of the variable?
16:25:38 <andythenorth> 'doodad sprites' :)
16:26:05 <andythenorth> why would I draw 32bit4x zoom? It's 16x the pixels? :P
16:27:08 <nielsm> 16x the pixels, 16x the pickle
16:35:25 <andythenorth> newgrf would be able to express things like 'build this industry type in 80% of towns'
16:35:42 <andythenorth> or 'try to place one of these every 64 tiles (manhattan)'
16:36:18 <andythenorth> with the same expressions able to be checked on both opening and closing industries
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16:38:45 <nielsm> an alternate industry construction location callback where the newgrf tells the game where it wants to build the industry (or not build any more), and is able to query any tile on the map?
16:39:22 <andythenorth> I think we'd need to decide what triggers the callback
16:39:26 <nielsm> a callback where the newgrf places industry tiles on the map instead of supplying a tile layout=
16:39:31 <andythenorth> most of the problems are OpenTTD side, not newgrf :)
16:40:06 <andythenorth> FIRS is acutely sensitive to things like how many towns on the map
16:40:52 <nielsm> this is the kind of thing where a newgrf having some kind of integrated GS snippet that is executed on game start would make sense
16:42:16 <andythenorth> doesn't need to run very frequently
16:42:38 <nielsm> mainly for things that would be terrible to express in callbacks
16:42:50 <andythenorth> I don't know, GS is the usual proposed solution for these type of things, but nobody has ever figured out a viable proposal
16:43:01 <andythenorth> whilst GS is blind to the newgrf, it's a very unappealing solution
16:45:07 * andythenorth wonders what would be the most fun :)
16:59:00 <Eddi|zuHause> action <whatever's free>: "embedded GameScript"...
16:59:59 <andythenorth> how would we even package 2 different formats for distribution?
17:00:09 <Eddi|zuHause> really, there's definitely need for a GS-NewGRF interface, like the callback that lets AIs build proper stations
17:00:12 <nielsm> I guess you could also use that as a way for GS to package new graphics with itself, e.g. for use in storybook
17:00:37 <andythenorth> so we have a timer driven system, and an event driven system?
17:00:45 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/fhbqc
17:01:22 * andythenorth tries to make a mental model of the interfaces
17:08:44 <nielsm> by the way is there a way to hide the "hide vehicle" feature because I hate it
17:09:01 <nielsm> I've never found a reasonable case for it and only used it by accident
17:09:36 <Eddi|zuHause> what's next? a hide the "hide the hide feature" feature?
17:09:42 <Eddi|zuHause> where does it END?!?
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17:23:47 <supermop_Home_> can we add a 'hide game' feature
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17:46:14 <Eddi|zuHause> that somehow doesn't look right... :p
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19:05:51 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] arbulgazar commented on issue #8054: Automatic spacing in timetables not working https://git.io/JvFcD
19:12:28 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7326: Remove MorphOS / AmigaOS / BeOS support and libtimidity support https://git.io/JvFCy
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19:39:57 <Eddi|zuHause> why did nobody tell me that i have no sound? :p
19:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause> (not that i'd expect anyone to actually watch)
19:46:10 <rotts> starting to make some bigger mediterranean buildings, getting a lot of good feedback and ideas on the discord
19:47:12 <andythenorth> nice roof terrace
20:13:07 <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> why did nobody tell me that i have no sound? :p <- because I mute everything, sounds hurt :P
20:14:43 <Wolf01> No, really, the sound goes to the headset, which is parked on the hook when I don't need to talk to other people, so I didn't notice
20:37:16 <TrueBrain> hmm .. am I safe to assume frosch123's day-job is not Python? :D
20:37:21 <TrueBrain> owh, he is not here :)
20:45:08 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/eints] TrueBrain requested changes for pull request #5: Add github-based authentication and authorization https://git.io/JvFBB
20:45:26 <TrueBrain> I finally got to reviewing it :D
20:45:38 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I finally feel your pain of reading through my random 400+ lines of Python :P
20:45:52 <TrueBrain> now we need to learn frosch123 about PEP-8, and we are golden :D
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20:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not necessarily agreeing with all things in PEP-8
20:48:25 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/eints] TrueBrain commented on pull request #5: Add github-based authentication and authorization https://git.io/JvFBr
20:48:52 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: the sad thing about this world ... 1000 people 1000 opinions
20:49:05 <TrueBrain> the good thing about Python ... most people follow PEP-8, agree'ing with it or not :)
20:49:17 <TrueBrain> (well, 'black' helps you ignore the parts you don't like, etc)
20:49:43 <TrueBrain> it is nice to have one code-style, no matter what project. Makes code reviewing a lot easier :D
20:58:08 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] mikrosk commented on pull request #7326: Remove MorphOS / AmigaOS / BeOS support and libtimidity support https://git.io/JvFBh
21:23:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm drowning in trains, and no amount of deleting them actually helps...
21:43:12 <andythenorth> hit AWS free tier limits again
21:43:29 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD is pushing my set limit a lot these days ..
21:45:11 <TrueBrain> 1.10 is downloaded over 3000 times already :P
21:45:26 <TrueBrain> well, that is only the win64.exe
21:45:36 <NGC3982> FLHerne: i see. thanks
21:45:45 <andythenorth> I've hit it on upload :P
21:45:53 <andythenorth> 2000 put requests :P
21:48:38 <andythenorth> I should just pay for AWS? :P
21:54:19 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not getting better, and i think i need a break
21:57:00 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: depending on what you do, it might not even be that expensive
21:57:08 <TrueBrain> S3 is really cheap, tbh
21:58:13 <andythenorth> think they'll give me open source credits? o_O
21:58:20 <andythenorth> probably more effort than just paying :D
21:58:49 <TrueBrain> one can always ask, ofc :)
21:59:03 <TrueBrain> but I think your payments will be pennies
21:59:17 <TrueBrain> I can give you an account under the OpenTTD umbrella, but not sure if that doesn't open us to many more people wanting that :P
22:00:36 * andythenorth looking in AWS Cost Management
22:00:40 <andythenorth> it's a whole world in a world
22:03:33 <FLHerne> andythenorth: If you're not fussed about scalability, AWS costs seem awful compared to a cheap VPS
22:04:05 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: managed vs unmanaged, that is always the case :)
22:04:31 <andythenorth> but AWS gives me the closest thing to an sftp server + Apache without running those things :P
22:05:42 <TrueBrain> managed, yes, very good :)
22:06:32 <andythenorth> I've set up $20 / month, let's see
22:06:43 <FLHerne> Depends how you value your time, I suppose
22:06:55 <FLHerne> But for me it doesn't seem remotely worth it
22:06:58 <andythenorth> I can get a VPS for $4.99, but then I have to...do stuff
22:07:21 <glx> and andythenorth is not the best to do this stuff :)
22:07:24 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: the whole managed vs unmanaged discussion in general is very personal :)
22:07:26 <FLHerne> andythenorth: But once you've done it, it's like 5min a month to check it didn't blow up
22:07:27 <TrueBrain> it depends on a lot of factors
22:07:38 <andythenorth> valuing personal time is weird
22:07:51 <andythenorth> but most programming jobs are worth around £50 / hour
22:08:00 <FLHerne> (assuming 'it' includes automatic updates and cert renewal, because why not)
22:08:21 <FLHerne> I wish they'd pay me £50/hour :P
22:08:25 <TrueBrain> not sure money is a relevant factor, tbh :)
22:08:37 <TrueBrain> I really really do not enjoy updating my OS on a server these days
22:08:42 <TrueBrain> it is just dreadful work
22:08:49 <TrueBrain> you never know 100% sure the system comes back up after a kernel update
22:08:56 <TrueBrain> it is just stressful for ... well .. 2 euro a month
22:09:08 <TrueBrain> so I rather pay the 2 euro, and focus on shit I do enjoy :)
22:09:25 <andythenorth> computers are awful
22:09:32 <TrueBrain> that is for me the personal reasoning behind managed vs unmanaged :)
22:09:33 <andythenorth> I just buy a new one when mine goes wrong
22:09:39 <TrueBrain> also the reason all my switches in my house are managed
22:09:46 <andythenorth> I waste a day fixing the damn ting
22:10:04 <TrueBrain> and the reason I have a 3D printer .. I enjoy that pain :)
22:10:11 * andythenorth must do the recycling
22:10:30 <TrueBrain> I am writing authentication .. kinda funny
22:10:50 <TrueBrain> I wonder if we should whitelist external applications that can use the authentication
22:11:03 <TrueBrain> on one hand, I would like it if others write shells around the API
22:11:10 <TrueBrain> on the other hand .. people can be tricked in nasty stuff
22:12:54 <TrueBrain> from a security perspective, we should do it
22:13:01 <TrueBrain> from an Open Source perspective, we shouldn't
22:15:28 <milek7> aws is like $0.09/GB egress?
22:15:42 <milek7> absurdly expensive imo
22:15:42 <TrueBrain> from what I read, andythenorth is hitting the PUT limit
22:20:50 <milek7> woah, it would be over 1000$ monthly
22:30:23 <andythenorth> it's $0.0053 per 1000 put requests :P
22:30:37 <TrueBrain> yeah ... don't expect much of it andythenorth :)
22:30:49 <TrueBrain> I wonder if they really charge you for that :P
22:30:55 <andythenorth> I have 1032 files in Iron Horse website
22:31:08 <andythenorth> how many 0s is the 53 shifted? :P
22:31:23 <TrueBrain> so every new version you publish, is 0.0053 dollarcent ..
22:31:28 <TrueBrain> be careful there now
22:31:29 <andythenorth> if I do 100 times / month it's 50 cents
22:31:38 <TrueBrain> can you manage that?
22:31:41 <andythenorth> but if we hook it up to Github actions + publish....
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22:32:02 <TrueBrain> shall we have a fundraiser for that?
22:32:25 <andythenorth> I don't need a patreon yet
22:32:58 <andythenorth> but yeah the $/GB transfer is $0.09
22:33:14 <TrueBrain> pretty sure you are one of those people that can make a buck if you make a patreon and give some nice things there :P
22:33:31 <andythenorth> pikka tried and failed :)
22:33:37 <andythenorth> pikka is much more loved than me
22:33:42 <andythenorth> pikka is nicer :P
22:34:11 <TrueBrain> I am as surprised as you are :P
22:57:39 <Zuu> Well.. the report is quite dry. If you have any details to add to the 8 year old report, please do add them.
23:07:43 <Samu> it's a valid report still
23:09:24 <Samu> then, at lines 160-163, that function _nonzero(a, b) isn't being used by anything, can be deleted
23:10:38 <Samu> but anyway, the pathfinder is generally too slow
23:11:04 <Samu> there doesn't seem to be used by most rail ais
23:17:23 <TrueBrain> okay, Content API authentication is in. And it even works. Wel, the GitHub variant. I still need to do the OpenTTD variant. But .. details :)
23:17:37 <TrueBrain> need to clean up the code a bit, and remove the hardcoded client id / secret :P
23:17:41 <TrueBrain> but that too .. details :D
23:17:47 <TrueBrain> this was easier than I expected .. :D
23:18:06 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I see you didn't bother to squash your branch before pushing? :D
23:18:39 <LordAro> TrueBrain: nah, that can be done when it's finished :p
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23:20:05 <glx> I tried github mobile app, it's not bad except the diff viewer, it's the worst I've ever seen :)
23:20:26 <LordAro> "as it doesn't follow PEP-8 (which most (all?) Python code follows"
23:23:22 <TrueBrain> LordAro: learn to surround yourself with sane people
23:23:25 <TrueBrain> it makes your world better :)
23:24:08 * LordAro looks at the python at work that's indented with 3 spaces
23:24:16 <TrueBrain> shit like: "if len(tag) > 0" should be banned
23:24:26 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I would punish people for that
23:24:29 <LordAro> hey, at least we got rid of all the semi-colons now
23:24:34 <LordAro> well, probably all of them
23:24:35 <TrueBrain> like .. really .. I would punish people for that
23:25:04 <LordAro> most of it stems from our Ada coding standards, which do (and should) use 3 spaces
23:25:07 <TrueBrain> been architect of more projects I care to count.. those projects are all PEP-8 compliant by the time I left :P
23:25:17 <LordAro> unfortunately "get people to configure their editors properly" isn't high on the priority list
23:25:37 <LordAro> also the senior dev who writes everything like it's c
23:25:40 <TrueBrain> of most projects, ironicly, I am the last author of 90% of the lines :P
23:25:42 <TrueBrain> because of this shit :D
23:25:49 <LordAro> TrueBrain: as am i :D
23:26:05 <TrueBrain> I like most editors .. if indent is 4, it stays 4
23:26:08 <TrueBrain> so I just make a huge commit to fix it
23:26:15 <TrueBrain> walk by a befriended dev
23:26:18 <TrueBrain> tell him to approve it
23:26:32 <TrueBrain> everyone comes wining for a day or so because all their rebases broke
23:26:39 <TrueBrain> (and you find out all the people who have shitty workflows)
23:26:48 <TrueBrain> you have to come to the manager why you wasted everyones time
23:26:56 <TrueBrain> and enjoy the sanity
23:27:06 <TrueBrain> month later, everyone cannot believe they once did it anti-PEP-8
23:27:21 <LordAro> the big one for me was fixing the EOL properties in SVN
23:27:34 <LordAro> rewrote about 80% of the repo
23:27:37 <TrueBrain> still a thing in git ...
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23:27:53 <LordAro> .gitattributes *mostly* works these days
23:28:00 <TrueBrain> but you need one :P
23:29:05 <TrueBrain> my other top of failing shit in Python projects: no setup.py and requirements.txt, everything in a single file, nowhere any init.py (what are they for?!), many many many all entries ..
23:29:08 <TrueBrain> ugh, I am going to stop talking :D
23:29:37 <TrueBrain> LordAro: "out of scope", fine with that, but you can already prepare for it by creating a testing.yml
23:29:43 <TrueBrain> regression really is not the same as testing if it works :)
23:29:50 <TrueBrain> (well, kinda, I guess, but no :P)
23:31:20 *** arikover has joined #openttd
23:32:33 <TrueBrain> LordAro: pro-tip, leave a TODO with test-code. Makes it easier for others, but also a good reminder for yourself .. "what was my test-code" :D
23:32:49 <TrueBrain> but as you get older, your memory gets worse, and you start to depend on these ... so many you are young enough to do without :D
23:33:21 <TrueBrain> these days I live by leaving TODOs everywhere I spot anything :P
23:33:26 <TrueBrain> blub blub ... memory of a fish
23:34:43 <planetmaker> <TrueBrain> but as you get older, your memory gets worse, and you start to depend on these ... so many you are young enough to do without :D <-- oh dear. so true!
23:35:19 <TrueBrain> I don't want to talk how much of my time these days is wasted on trying to remember what I was remembering ............
23:35:21 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i figured how obvious it was in the diff would be enough
23:35:45 <TrueBrain> right, time to get some sleepy sleeeeepppp \o/
23:55:05 <rotts> well, it seems I´m working on that mediterranean town set now. :) it´s becoming a team effort, too. love it
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