IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-12-27
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00:41:50 <glx> hythlodaeus: sometimes you add {NBSP} around the hyphen, sometimes you don't ;)
00:45:40 <hythlodaeus> glx: in some tooltips it was not necessary
00:45:53 <hythlodaeus> but I might fix that later
00:54:12 <hythlodaeus> but if you can note where I am missing NBSP it would help a lot!
00:57:19 <hythlodaeus> what do you think of the new descriptions btw?
02:20:24 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro merged pull request #113: Change: semantic HTML-elements for the pages main sections https://git.io/JeH4H
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08:54:15 <andythenorth> Pikka: a release!
09:32:37 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7850: Change: [hotkeys] add missing keycodes for hotkeys.cfg https://git.io/JeM3O
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10:16:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7094: Fix #7088: Retrieve an appropriate name for a non-existant AI/GS when displaying a textfile https://git.io/JebAw
10:26:28 <LordAro> peter1138: you haven't?
10:27:03 <LordAro> peter1138: any further thoughts on #7248? i'm tempted to rebase it and get it in
10:27:14 <andythenorth> 3 company colours then? o_O
10:27:32 <LordAro> andythenorth: shush now
10:28:31 <andythenorth> peter1138: release early, release often
10:28:33 <peter1138> LordAro, I don't know what it is.
10:28:38 <andythenorth> not too early, that's awkward
10:28:47 <peter1138> Do I have to log in to github?
10:29:22 <peter1138> Oh, no. There were reports that it is slower in some instances.
10:29:33 <peter1138> So it needs more thought.
10:30:07 <peter1138> I considered maintaining separate lists instead of iterating a massive one 5 times...
10:31:09 <peter1138> May be more work but spread out better. Don't know.
10:31:45 <peter1138> I guess such a list would be modified only on vehicle creation/destruction, so less work.
10:36:14 <LordAro> tricky bit would be actually splitting the engine pool, as best as i can tell
10:39:00 <peter1138> Not sure how that is relevant.
10:39:53 <peter1138> It's all a lot of work "just" for some benchmarking features ;-)
10:41:36 <LordAro> well Engine is currently declared as a single _engine_pool . The pool stuff is how it's iterated over. So to have separate lists, you'd need separate pools
10:41:59 <LordAro> unless you do something with another level of abstraction, of course
10:44:11 <peter1138> I meant additional lists, pointing to the main list, indeed.
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12:26:34 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7094: Fix #7088: Retrieve an appropriate name for a non-existant AI/GS when displaying a textfile https://git.io/Jebpi
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12:51:38 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #7877: Fix: Farms could be generated at sea level https://git.io/Jebp5
12:51:38 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 closed pull request #7877: Fix: Farms could be generated at sea level https://git.io/Jebot
12:53:24 <LordAro> frosch123: tbf, he often does ask here first whether it would be a good PR
12:53:30 <LordAro> doesn't normally get a response
12:54:29 * andythenorth wonders about PR-ing 3 company colours :P
12:55:14 <frosch123> andythenorth: isn't win32 paintbrush open source or something? maybe add it as "paint on your own vehicles"
12:56:11 <andythenorth> but it got closed
12:56:56 <frosch123> for valid reasons, it's almost a samu pr
12:57:45 <frosch123> i had a coworker at my old job
12:58:25 <frosch123> whenever there was a bug, he determined where each if would need to branch to get to the desired result, and then just add "not" to all ifs that did not match
12:59:22 <frosch123> actually, it's kind of similar to training neural networks. is it "reinforment coding"?
13:00:31 <andythenorth> Pikka: it's good eh?
13:00:34 <andythenorth> no more bugs found
13:00:59 <andythenorth> it's built a narrow gauge train
13:01:05 <Pikka> I found one or two but I'll hold on to them until someone else finds more. ;)
13:01:16 <andythenorth> it's really quite civil about building trains
13:01:31 <andythenorth> I've upped the route limit to 256 tiles to see if it builds more
13:01:40 <andythenorth> and gave each AI £10m to play with
13:02:15 <Pikka> as far as industries go, it will only build to
13:02:20 <Pikka> a) industries that produce nothing
13:02:26 <Pikka> b) industries that produce goods or food
13:02:41 <Pikka> c) industries that happen to be in the catchment area of a station it already built
13:02:55 <Pikka> so it tends to stay out of the way of complex industry chains like FIRS has
13:03:01 <andythenorth> I gave it FIRS Tropic Basic to play, it's mostly food
13:03:46 <andythenorth> it does alcohol quite well
13:04:39 <andythenorth> frosch123: I thought it was a valid 'fix' for tropic landscape :)
13:04:46 <andythenorth> it doesn't address the root cause :P
13:05:14 <LordAro> frosch123: are you sure he wasn't actually a neural network? :p
13:06:23 <andythenorth> Pikka: can I fork it as UncivilAI? :)
13:06:34 <andythenorth> it's good for testing Horse, but needs to be more aggressive
13:07:00 * andythenorth probably as enough projects
13:07:32 <Pikka> you do tend to end up just watching the game and not playing it when you're developing AIs :P
13:09:10 <andythenorth> FFWD with 6 AIs :P
13:09:16 <andythenorth> my battery dies quick :)
13:10:32 <andythenorth> although the 6 AIs don't use much game loop time
13:10:36 <andythenorth> it's graphics rendering
13:10:50 <andythenorth> FFWD is running at the fantastic speed of 1.3x
13:11:42 <andythenorth> oh I opened a news window, now it's back up to 2.5x
13:11:48 <andythenorth> such a weird optimisation tactic
13:13:45 <andythenorth> oh window-shading the fps window gets me 3.5x
13:14:08 * peter1138 ponders switching to Garmin from Fitbit.
13:17:11 <andythenorth> 3.65x if I make the ottd window really small
13:18:44 <andythenorth> @calc 1.65 / 2.65
13:18:44 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.622641509434
13:19:07 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.377358490566
13:19:28 <andythenorth> ok so windowshading fps window causes the game to run ~37% faster on ffwd
13:19:54 <andythenorth> I'm probably wrong, but is updating that window really expensive?
13:33:40 <Pikka> andythenorth, when I want it to ff as fast as possible I zoom right in on a patch of water :)
13:34:56 <andythenorth> I get highest fps at 1x zoom
13:35:31 <andythenorth> usually in southern corner of map, with mostly blac
13:35:50 <Pikka> I guess my landscape tiles are 4x, it runs fastest when it doesn't have to resize them?
13:36:43 <andythenorth> hmm my laptop now smells of lightbulb
13:36:47 <andythenorth> or electrical heater
14:25:35 <andythenorth> ok so for coal and similar stuff, these are the wagon choices
14:25:58 <andythenorth> all perform the same [only difference is capacity varies by length]
14:26:52 <andythenorth> for industrial liquids / petrochemical stuff, these are the wagon choices :P
14:27:02 <andythenorth> but they recolour to suit the cargo
14:28:00 <andythenorth> localised feedback is that recolouring is weird
14:28:08 <andythenorth> feedback is very in my face here
14:28:16 <andythenorth> 9 year olds are persistent
14:28:47 <andythenorth> I tried splitting up the tank cars by cargo, with different colours
14:29:00 <andythenorth> but they're all still just cylinders
14:29:16 <andythenorth> the mineral wagons look quite different, to me at least
14:31:13 * andythenorth will find an answer :P
14:33:53 <Samu> out of 20480, 4 were generated at height 0
14:37:02 <andythenorth> I basically want black, grey and CC tankers
14:37:30 <andythenorth> but 'Class B Tanker' and 'Class A Tanker' is very UK-specific railway stuff
14:46:38 <Pikka> oil tanker, petrol tanker, chemical tanker, etc?
14:47:45 <andythenorth> I think that's where it's head yair
14:48:06 <andythenorth> NARS 3 ones can be black and white
14:49:05 <Samu> so, it's not a bug, it's only rare
14:57:57 <Samu> that means snowline level at 3
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15:14:11 <Samu> all its missing is removing strings from foreign languages, which is boring to do
15:22:08 <LordAro> Samu: 6 seems quite high
15:23:03 <Samu> it's the only way to have both farms and forests on the map
15:24:00 <LordAro> farms don't need 6 levels...
15:24:02 <Samu> and it's not really a 6, terragenesis apparently maxes out at that value - 1
15:24:44 <Samu> farms can only be below snowline - 2
15:26:20 <LordAro> still feels like the wrong solution
15:26:47 <LordAro> nielsm: thoughts on the above?
15:27:52 <Samu> nielsm wanted a histogram, but i dunno how to do that, i made it the way I know
15:29:15 <LordAro> unfortunately "hacking at stuff you don't understand" is rarely a good answer
15:31:51 <nielsm> uh just a moment, pulling up logs...
15:35:01 <nielsm> my birds decree it unimportant
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15:47:39 <andythenorth> what was the goal?
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15:54:13 <Samu> have snow on the map and not fail to generate industries
15:59:04 <nielsm> I still hold that the solution to that problem is to change the map generation rules so you cannot generate a map without mountains
15:59:26 <nielsm> make it always generate a mix of mountains and whatever else you select
16:03:04 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7852: Feature: Show the name of the NewGRF in the build vehicle window. https://git.io/JeNed
16:04:22 <Samu> how would it respect max height?
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16:14:11 * andythenorth tries to work out how to take a vector across a heightmap png
16:14:27 <andythenorth> that's represented as a linear list of values :P
16:14:52 * andythenorth considering a naive erosion-based terrain generator
16:21:23 <andythenorth> I can understand the computational efficiency of perlin noise, but it doesn't actually look good
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16:30:47 <nielsm> next crazy idea: integrate a WASM VM and use for future extension, allow GS and AI to be written in it, and allow it to supply terrain generators
16:31:07 <nielsm> and allow it to add every kind of object newgrf does
16:31:21 <nielsm> (deprecating squirrel and newgrf for new projects)
16:32:20 <_dp_> nielsm, haven't I mentioned that idea before?
16:32:39 <_dp_> it's actually pretty reasonable way to do extensions imo
16:32:39 <nielsm> it's not a far grasp so I'm not surprised
16:32:58 <_dp_> yeah, I even did a bit of coding
16:33:05 <_dp_> tiny bit though, nothing useful so far
16:50:32 <nielsm> and step after that would be recompiling squirrel to wasm :P
16:50:54 <frosch123> tb kicked me when i suggested a html+js gui :p
16:51:38 <Samu> i just noticed i have the snowline determined at the wrong place. I thought that location was the final stage of landscape generation, but there's some FixSlopes next :/
16:51:46 <_dp_> dunno about squirrel but moving newgrf stuff to wasm would be neat
16:52:09 <frosch123> what benefits do you expect?
16:52:13 <nielsm> I just fear that recompiling existing newgrf to something else might have weird results
16:52:44 <nielsm> (or rather, be difficult to do correctly)
16:53:15 <_dp_> not recompiling newgrf files but runtime than runs them
16:53:19 <_dp_> for backwards compatibility
16:53:40 <nielsm> actually, maybe that would be a useful exercise, translate newgrf to a sequence of instructions in another language
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16:59:25 <nielsm> sprite and sound data could probably also be included straight in a wasm module as static data
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17:04:53 <_dp_> static data is the least worry
17:05:23 <_dp_> though something like procedural sprites can be a neat feature
17:05:42 <nielsm> I fear what andy might do :P
17:06:01 <nielsm> really the entire pynml framework could be implemented right in the VM
17:06:58 <nielsm> distribute image processing and 3D rendering libraries as part of the addon
17:15:08 <andythenorth> allow the insertion of C++ methods and classes via WASM :P
17:15:17 <andythenorth> extensibility-in-place via mods
17:15:22 <andythenorth> what could go wrong?
17:18:25 <LordAro> lua seems like a more sensible bet
17:18:45 <nielsm> luajit isn't bad either, I suppose
17:19:05 <frosch123> isn't that unmainteined for 5 years?
17:19:56 <nielsm> that makes wasm look even more like the pragmatic best bet for a system likely to be maintained and get high-quality implementations
17:20:23 <frosch123> is it a functional language though?
17:20:47 <nielsm> no, thoroughly stateful
17:21:10 <frosch123> so, not suitable :)
17:21:20 <nielsm> hm yeah I suppose that can actually be problematic for newgrf and reproducability
17:22:02 <frosch123> can your browser run 4000 vms in parallel?
17:22:32 <frosch123> how do you map trains to vms?
17:22:58 <LordAro> lua itself isn't slow, last time i checked
17:23:51 <nielsm> this discussion came from terrain generators initially, I'm not sure I'd have lua generate a 2k or 4k map
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17:24:05 <nielsm> and newgrf became a bonus option
17:29:06 <frosch123> yexo wrote a squirrel mapgen some years ago
17:29:11 <frosch123> and abandoned it due to speed
17:31:16 <nielsm> regarding wasm as a newgrf execution environment, I wonder if it wouldn't be possible to have a VM fault on memory writes
17:32:04 <nielsm> basically letting the newgrf have an init stage where it can set up its memory of data, and after init the memory becomes static data stored as part of the savegame
17:36:13 <_dp_> nielsm, what for? if there is wasm it makes more sense to use it for extensions directly in future and not develop newgrf runtime much further
17:37:16 <nielsm> the issue frosch123 hints at is the network game model of ottd, every client needs to execute the same, and two independent vehicles should not affect each other intentionally or through bugs in the add-on
17:37:50 <nielsm> if a vehicle procedure (callback) has access to mutable state then things quickly become weird and non-deterministic
17:39:10 <nielsm> like a vehicle acting differently on two clients because one client has the vehicle information window open and that causes a procedure to be called
17:40:23 <_dp_> you mean wasm will allow developers to make bad extensions?
17:40:59 <_dp_> coz wasm runtime itself seems pretty deterministic
17:41:02 <nielsm> newgrf as designed makes it (in principle) impossible to make extensions that cause desyncs
17:41:06 <nielsm> apart from bugs in ottd itself
17:42:54 <nielsm> wasm itself is deterministic, but even then if deterministic code that accesses mutable state can be run based on non-deterministic data (such as user inputs that differ on clients), the total system is non-deterministic
17:43:23 <milek7_> luajit seems maintained
17:43:49 <milek7_> but for some reason it is stuck on 5.1 syntax
17:44:17 <_dp_> well, with great power comes great responsibility
17:44:33 <nielsm> lua syntax not being forward-compatible is a major issue imo, and probably a reason for luajit sticking to 5.1
17:44:39 <_dp_> if something like nml2wasm is made that can probably guarantee desync-safety
17:45:00 <_dp_> but when written directly it's coders responsibility
17:47:54 <_dp_> though it may be possible to isolate gui writeble memory from game state code within wasm idk
17:49:23 <milek7_> wasm vm probably does bounds-check already, so it should be possible to disallow specific areas
17:50:17 <milek7_> code in luajit is fast itself, but I'm not sure how fast is c->lua transition
17:50:51 <milek7_> lua_call api is annoying, and luajit ffi callbacks are globally limited to few hundred functions or so
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17:51:56 <milek7_> 'Callbacks are slow! First, the C to Lua transition itself has an unavoidable cost, similar to a lua_call() or lua_pcall(). Argument and result marshalling add to that cost. And finally, neither the C compiler nor LuaJIT can inline or optimize across the language barrier and hoist repeated computations out of a callback function. '
17:52:15 <milek7_> 'Callbacks take up resources — you can only have a limited number of them at the same time (500 - 1000, depending on the architecture).'
17:53:02 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders https://git.io/fhGxd
17:55:46 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders https://git.io/JeNJx
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18:08:29 <milek7_> but lua works fine for my christmas tree decoration ;)
18:09:12 <frosch123> sounds like a complex decoration
18:09:19 <frosch123> what does it do? play darude?
18:11:16 <andythenorth> [to the tune of darude]
18:13:01 * andythenorth wonders how many types of tank car to add
18:13:04 <frosch123> i think "christmas" is a weird excuse to have fun with light :)
18:13:14 <andythenorth> I add lights to my van this year :P
18:13:21 <andythenorth> we should all light our vehicles / bikes
18:14:13 <andythenorth> oof I had an idea
18:14:29 <frosch123> oh, i saw a car with (fake) elk horns on the external mirrors
18:14:48 <frosch123> i felt happy to not sit inside that car
18:16:42 <andythenorth> phosporic acid ^
18:16:55 <andythenorth> maybe I can do a cargo coloured stripe :P
18:17:07 <andythenorth> currently I recolour the whole sprite :P
18:17:30 <Samu> determine snow line height can be extended to Original land generator, just checking out
18:19:17 <frosch123> you can also do two sprite layers and recolour them independently
18:19:55 <andythenorth> I do that for containers
18:22:06 <Samu> that's 33% snow at the top you suggested ;p
18:23:20 <nielsm> yeah maybe a different amount is better
18:31:29 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders https://git.io/fhGxd
18:31:42 <frosch123> maple sirup tanker?
18:31:57 <Samu> with 50%, the result matches 7
18:32:29 <Samu> 7 was TTD's snowline height, right?
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18:39:28 <andythenorth> canadian economy
18:39:33 <andythenorth> maple syrup, moose
18:40:22 <frosch123> it gets harder after that :)
18:41:38 <Samu> it's quite damn good imo
18:47:03 <frosch123> apparently there are now official pieces to put lego on h0 tracks
18:48:34 <Samu> interesting find, seems to be that terragenesis is afraid of making too high terrain
18:48:55 <Samu> original has more tiles higher than terragenesis on alpinist
18:50:55 <Samu> heh, snowline height even decreases when set to very rough
18:51:20 <Samu> smooth and very smooth generates more tiles higher
18:51:25 <Samu> than rough and very rough
18:54:57 <Samu> gonna test some real heightmaps
19:01:45 <Samu> eww first map i opened, looks really bad
19:01:55 <Samu> snow line set to 4, it was Europe 4k
19:07:57 <Samu> this thing wastes quite a bit of time to determine the right height, would the histogram be faster? maybe I wanna learn how to do it
19:11:37 <Samu> woah, heightmaps isn't afraid of throwing big heights
19:13:24 <Samu> i set a max height of 255, this europe map peaks at 135
19:14:39 <Samu> this peak is somewhere in spain
19:22:54 <Samu> no, somewhere in main land
19:25:45 <Samu> I discovered something...
19:26:11 <Samu> FixSlopes is being run twice for heightmaps
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19:47:58 <Samu> can I make a PR about this finding?
19:50:51 <Samu> the one on landscape should stay imo, and the other on heightmap should be removed, but then landscape needs to be removed of one extra step
19:51:21 <dwfreed> "Do not call IncreaseGeneratingWorldProgress() before FixSlopes()"
19:51:42 <dwfreed> there's a IncreaseGeneratingWorldProgress call right after LoadHeightmap
19:53:58 <dwfreed> does the second FixSlopes make changes?
19:54:12 <dwfreed> before assuming it's redundant, perhaps you should check :P
19:55:36 <nielsm> I'd suggest tracing the code back through "blame" to figure out when the second was added and get an idea why
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20:15:02 <andythenorth> so I am pretty much at one wagon type per cargo :P
20:15:34 <andythenorth> in a context where FIRS Steeltown has 41 cargos :P
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20:32:21 <frosch123> oh dear, now you probably change firs to have less cargos...
20:33:26 <andythenorth> minimalism doesn't seem to extend that far
20:33:37 <andythenorth> oof imagine if minimalism was really big :P
20:36:36 * andythenorth deletes all plans
20:41:21 <frosch123> that's sulphur acid
20:42:00 <andythenorth> for some reason I don't distinguish in game
20:42:22 <andythenorth> sulphuric acid / molten sulphur / sulphur rock all same
20:42:25 <andythenorth> maybe I should :P
20:46:35 <frosch123> anyway, i expected silo vans, but apparently it's more like coal
20:47:54 <andythenorth> it has been yellow in my sets for ages :)
20:47:57 <frosch123> oh dear... when you search for vehicle images, and factorio screenshots show up
20:48:09 <andythenorth> often this channel
20:50:34 <frosch123> hmm, i wonder whether i have a misconception of how sulphur exists in nature
20:53:18 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #7852: Feature: Show the name of the NewGRF in the build vehicle window. https://git.io/JeMKL
20:57:55 <frosch123> apparently it exists in surface minnig
20:58:16 <frosch123> but i don't understand how that was created historically
20:58:27 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #7852: Feature: Show the name of the NewGRF in the build vehicle window. https://git.io/JeNI7
20:59:15 <frosch123> they say vulkans, but then it should have been burnt
20:59:59 <andythenorth> there are good pictures of it being mined
21:00:20 <andythenorth> isn't it a deposit from hot springs etc?
21:04:36 <Samu> FixSlopes on the 2nd run still fixes slopes, is the algorythm wrong
21:08:24 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #7852: Feature: Show the name of the NewGRF in the build vehicle window. https://git.io/JeNLJ
21:08:47 <Samu> yep, nothing to fix on the 2nd run
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21:19:47 <Samu> seems that it was a change to make it run only once
21:22:16 <Samu> MarkWholeScreenDirty is this needed?
21:26:16 <Samu> IncreaseGeneratingWorldProgress also has a MarkWholeScreenDirty
21:26:28 <Samu> guess it's safe to remove
21:26:57 <glx> this one force redraw of the progress window I think
21:27:34 <glx> so yes other are redondand probably
21:32:00 <Samu> Fix: Fixing the slopes was being done twice on heightmaps when one suffices
21:36:45 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #7880: Fix: Fixing the slopes was being done twice on heightmaps when one suffices https://git.io/JeNLr
21:39:41 <Samu> GLS_HEIGHTMAP = 2 could even be removed as it's now the same as GLS_ORIGINAL, but too late
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22:04:07 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #7872: Default openttd.cfg world gen settings don't allow Forests in Sub-Arctic https://git.io/JeFfG
22:08:56 <Samu> oh, and i had an email from github, almost forgot
22:26:17 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7872: Default openttd.cfg world gen settings don't allow Forests in Sub-Arctic https://git.io/JeFfG
22:50:58 <Samu> it makes the commit description deprecated though
23:23:28 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7094: Fix #7088: Retrieve an appropriate name for a non-existant AI/GS when displaying a textfile https://git.io/fhrqY
23:37:09 <Samu> James103 wants an auto as a choice
23:38:46 <Samu> hmmm, must think what to do
23:39:18 <Samu> that widget displays numbers
23:39:32 <Samu> it isn't ready to display a text saying 'auto'
23:40:25 <andythenorth> the chances of removing snowline setting are zero
23:40:32 <andythenorth> if I was betting money
23:41:40 <Samu> is 2-253, how am I gonna make an auto here?
23:41:55 <Samu> both 1 and 254 are autos?
23:44:18 <Samu> call it auto_snow, enabled, disabled
23:44:30 <Samu> enabled, does the auto snow line
23:44:41 <Samu> disabled, uses the value of the other
23:45:10 <Samu> how then would I put this into the world gen ui
23:47:51 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC
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23:48:44 <Samu> I think i'm off to bed to think better of this
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