IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-12-26
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00:00:04 <nielsm> if you already have height level distributions somewhere, you shouldn't need to loop over the map data again to determine a snow line height
00:05:03 <Wolf01> Hmmm, I finished Astroneer
00:06:40 <frosch> the more reviews of sw9 i read, the more i conclude that it is kind of a masterpiece of parody
00:08:13 <frosch> it will take months to decode all the puns
00:08:22 <Samu> the histogram is being used to generate the desired % of water
00:08:40 <peter1138> Btw, if messing with terrain, ensure that variety bollocks is off too.
00:09:02 <frosch> didn't they reinvent variety earlier?
00:09:08 <Samu> but it's being done with heights of the perlin map
00:09:14 <peter1138> Probably. It needs it.
00:09:20 <Samu> those heights are not yet translated to openttd
00:09:44 <Samu> i dunno how to make a histogram :(
00:10:26 <nielsm> Samu: you just make an array (a vector) of appropriate size, initialise it to all zero, then loop over your data (the map data) and add 1 to the right bucket for every value
00:13:20 <nielsm> in particular I'd like some opinions on how to handle the rating name and tooltip, I think the approach described right now is bad
00:13:56 <nielsm> I'm thinking about packing both StringIDs into the text field of the Set rating component command
00:14:24 <nielsm> (because they need to be string id's and not character strings)
00:14:52 <frosch> did you check out some gs?
00:15:21 <frosch> those that i played (mainly nocargoal and my own silicon valley) have a solution to display a score progress
00:15:38 <nielsm> yeah I know they do stuff for that
00:15:51 <nielsm> the idea here is to use the proper game GUI for it
00:16:08 <nielsm> and have it represented on the company performance rating graph
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00:16:28 <frosch> ah, ok, "graph" is something new
00:16:50 <frosch> if it was just for the detailed score table, i would have suggested to just drop it :p
00:17:37 <nielsm> by that argument, the entire company rating idea (and high score) may as well be removed from the game
00:18:09 <nielsm> since it doesn't really measure anything but one specific play style/game goal
00:18:26 <frosch> well, there is a specific goal window for gs
00:18:46 <frosch> so why also use the old less flexible one
00:20:05 <frosch> (btw. i killed 3/4 of the old highscore when i removed difficulty settings :p and i consider the endgame screen a nuisance)
00:21:22 <frosch> but ok, so my interpretation is: the goal gui can display multiple goals and their progress, but you want some "sum" of that progress and plot it in the graph over time?
00:23:37 <frosch> you suggest a new "rating id", i would recommend to use the existing "goal id"
00:24:19 <frosch> essentially the same as SetProgress, but instead of a text also some numerical percentage or weighted score
00:26:58 <Samu> lines 1 to 8 is code already from tgp.cpp, unchanged, i added code afterwards
00:27:13 <frosch> i think you have a broken table/strings.h
00:27:43 <frosch> or language files from another version
00:28:21 <frosch> nocargoal display "x %" as progress text
00:28:55 <frosch> i think if i wanted a plot of that i would want a plot for the individual goals, not as a whole
00:30:37 <frosch> sv does not seem to use that progress text
00:30:52 <frosch> so i assume that was a newer addition, and not part of the original goal stuff
00:33:19 <frosch> about storing gs stuff in savegames. since the gs only runs on the server, multiplayer requires that you store the result of all gs actions in the savefile
00:33:53 <frosch> it may still be recommended that gs recalculate stuff, but ottd has to stick to whatever they set last
00:35:04 <frosch> hmm, though i am not sure whether some stuff is actually only loaded from savegames when joining network games, and discarded when loaded alone
00:35:35 <nielsm> okay I have no idea what was going on, but after doing a full rebuild that goals window bug went away
00:35:49 <nielsm> (didn't need to rerun strgen, just openttd itself)
00:36:26 <nielsm> hinted by the fact that the debugger claimed there were no symbols for the goal_gui.cpp code I tried to put breakpoints in
00:40:27 <Samu> TileHeight is less cpu than GetTileZ
00:40:59 <Samu> reads the height from the _m directly
00:41:46 <nielsm> GetTileZ considers the contents of the tile, TileHeight just the base terrain
00:42:12 <nielsm> (contents of the tile can make foundations that affect the "perceived height")
00:42:36 <Samu> SetTileHeight writes directly into _m[tile].height too
00:42:56 <Samu> TileHeight is then correct
00:43:11 <Samu> gotta go sleep, take care
00:44:20 <frosch> SetProgress and SetText and all that stuff are 1.4 additions
00:44:50 <frosch> now i remember that sv actually had to constantly delete and recreate goals... because there was no method to update them in 1.2
00:48:23 <frosch> so maybe a GSGoal::SetRating(goal_id, current_rating, max_rating)
00:48:56 <frosch> that allows both computing a percentage and plotting of that percentage, and computing a weighted total score and plotting of that
00:49:56 <glx> <nielsm> hinted by the fact that the debugger claimed there were no symbols for the goal_gui.cpp code I tried to put breakpoints in <-- happened a lot when I was doing FOR_ALL replacements
00:49:57 <nielsm> _dp_ has previously mentioned he'd also like rating items with unlimited score
00:50:30 <glx> I guess the dependencies detection doesn't work very well, or maybe some ghost includes
00:50:41 <frosch> hmm, so just GSPlot? :p
00:50:58 <nielsm> frosch: one issue with using GSGoal is that goals of different companies don't easily correlate, so if you give two companies the same goal you wouldn't be able to graph those against each other
00:51:08 <frosch> dp is a city builder, so they probably want to plot the cargo transport of the main town of each company
00:52:10 <frosch> hmm, so you need matching of the goals between companies
00:53:34 <nielsm> (damn that's almost two years ago I started on that patch now, before even doing the music stuff)
00:53:40 <frosch> funnily in the case of ncg and sv, the goals of individual companies are only similar in structure, but not the same :p
00:56:37 <nielsm> yeah it would only make sense to plot the totals for each company against each other
00:57:44 <nielsm> unless you kept track of non-goals for all companies too, and then just marked the graphs for the real goals specially
00:58:14 <nielsm> so you could graph the amount of every single cargo transported for any company, and then have marks on the cargoes that actually mattered for scoring
00:58:18 <frosch> what about ignoreing the rating gui, and just allow gs to create custom plots? i.e. they create some plot_id and then can record a sample every now and then. ottd stores the sample over N years and plots them
00:59:44 <nielsm> and then as a bonus mark one of the plots as "replaces company rating", and if a company rating replacement is selected then the normal game end rules don't apply (the score screen never shows at a specific date)
01:00:04 <nielsm> and maybe have a command for the GS to optionally trigger the end-game screen showing all final scores
01:00:37 <frosch> i wonder whether some GS would want to define a plot into the future
01:00:57 <frosch> "this is the economy forecast, please adjust accordingly"
01:01:01 <nielsm> "keep X value within Y parameters"
01:01:17 <_dp_> though to do it ingame is tmwftlb
01:01:59 <frosch> they are not per company, are they?
01:02:43 <frosch> hmm... though economy forecast makes no sense "per company"
01:02:50 <_dp_> everything is for one company, there is a dropdown on top to chose company
01:03:17 <_dp_> comparing two companies is rarely useful imo
01:04:35 <frosch> why has V 3 companies?
01:06:11 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Qwest8K commented on issue #6566: Very long loading of the maximum "zoom out" level in 4K resolution https://git.io/fxABA
01:11:55 <nielsm> imma sleep and dream about graphs and stuff
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08:50:11 <andythenorth> Pikka: it's probably a valid result :)
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11:09:31 <LordAro> did everyone have a merry wintermass?
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11:14:52 <nielsm> food was eaten, at the very least
11:27:15 <LordAro> nielsm: that's 75% of it, i'm pretty sure
11:30:11 <Samu> dang, as I expected... water level skew the results
11:31:35 <Samu> that's already 90% of the map below snowline
11:33:26 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro commented on pull request #116: Various of fixes in preparation of running this Docker on AWS https://git.io/Jebgz
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11:42:04 <Pikka> maybe andythenorth... maybe :)
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11:55:56 <Pikka> andythenorth, either way it's a GOOD FEATURE... makes the ai use express locos on slow wagons much less :)
11:58:17 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #116: Various of fixes in preparation of running this Docker on AWS https://git.io/JebgQ
11:59:06 <Pikka> giving my AI a malus to using fast locos with slow wagons, hythlodaeus
12:00:00 <Samu> count tiles above water level
12:01:59 <hythlodaeus> Pikka: which AI specifically?
12:02:59 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #116: Various of fixes in preparation of running this Docker on AWS https://git.io/JebgF
12:03:29 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #116: Various of fixes in preparation of running this Docker on AWS https://git.io/JebgN
12:05:13 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #116: Various of fixes in preparation of running this Docker on AWS https://git.io/Jebgx
12:05:27 <TrueBrain> wow, that is spammy ..
12:06:27 <LordAro> and there's only 4 comments on this review :p
12:07:33 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro commented on pull request #116: Various of fixes in preparation of running this Docker on AWS https://git.io/Jebgh
12:09:11 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain requested changes for pull request #12: Announce tags when created https://git.io/Jeb2f
12:10:18 <Samu> im unsure if I like the result
12:10:46 <Samu> map is 90% water, max height generated was 28 on alpinist
12:10:57 <Samu> snowline height was autodetermined to be at 3
12:11:18 <TrueBrain> LordAro: "TypeError: 'dict_items' object is not subscriptable" :P
12:12:32 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on pull request #116: Various of fixes in preparation of running this Docker on AWS https://git.io/Jeb2T
12:12:43 <LordAro> TrueBrain: turn it into a list first!
12:12:50 <LordAro> but yeah, probably worse overall
12:13:53 <TrueBrain> I am honestly not sure
12:14:29 <TrueBrain> hmm ... can we filter on telling about branches yes/no ..
12:14:56 <TrueBrain> as I agree with you that it works for OpenTTD
12:15:00 <TrueBrain> it doesn't work for website, I think
12:16:00 <andythenorth> Pikka: well I like that it did it
12:16:07 <andythenorth> but it's not making any money this way
12:16:25 <andythenorth> it builds them, then scraps them :)
12:16:33 <andythenorth> the AI is quite good at making money otherwise
12:16:39 <TrueBrain> LordAro: if we split it in tag_created and branch_created, we can have .dorpsgek.yml filter on it
12:16:45 <TrueBrain> so we can say when to announce which?
12:17:17 <LordAro> depends how generic we want to be :)
12:17:50 <andythenorth> Horse has Coal Hopper even when coal cargo is not available
12:17:53 <TrueBrain> fair; but I think it would be spammy how it is now for a few of our projects
12:18:02 <TrueBrain> I can already head the comments: WHY IS IT TALKING ABOUT THIS :P
12:18:05 <andythenorth> ^^^ should I do more or less of that?
12:18:15 <andythenorth> [hopper refits to other stuff]
12:18:28 <Pikka> you can always rename it depending on what cargos are available
12:18:54 <andythenorth> I am running out of names somewhat
12:19:11 <andythenorth> I don't want to use really specific UK realism names
12:19:21 <andythenorth> 'plate wagon' already confused the translators :P
12:21:09 <Pikka> just keeping it coal hopper should be fine
12:21:29 <TrueBrain> LordAro: ha, itertools.islice solves this problem :D
12:22:04 <Pikka> every other set has "coal" wagons which probably refit when no coal too
12:22:07 <hythlodaeus> if you guys want to prevent confusing translators, slightly upgrading eints to support strings comments would solve that
12:23:34 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain updated pull request #116: Various of fixes in preparation of running this Docker on AWS https://git.io/Jed5i
12:24:45 <hythlodaeus> guys I've finished my upgrade of the english.txt file for better tooltips, but I kind of need some help to commit it, since I'm still learning how to use git properly
12:24:47 <TrueBrain> okay .. this does need a final check, to see if it still plays nice with my latest AWS deployment, but that is something for later today :) This is going to be so eppiccc :D
12:25:59 * andythenorth wants to auto-publish newgrf docs to AWS from github :D
12:26:36 <LordAro> wait hang on, where did i get #30 & #31 from? these are #7 & #9
12:27:06 <andythenorth> Pikka: coal is coal, but 'potash hopper' or 'salt hopper'? o_O
12:28:21 <andythenorth> I have about 9 kinds of covered hopper now :P
12:28:49 <andythenorth> clay, grain, carbon black, all very specific
12:29:15 <andythenorth> then generic silver, brown, dirty cement colours
12:29:21 <andythenorth> and I want CC also :P
12:29:23 <TrueBrain> LordAro: we really do want that fallback? I read your comment that you concluded too that it could only result in odd behaviour :D
12:31:10 <Pikka> separate wagon grf andythenorth?
12:31:49 <andythenorth> I think that's what I'm making :P
12:41:58 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i'll remove
13:04:59 <Samu> remove snow line height from world gen gui is the next step?
13:06:30 <Samu> now, you're auto determined
13:08:02 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain requested changes for pull request #12: Announce tags when created https://git.io/Jebau
13:08:03 <TrueBrain> 1 more bug LordAro :)
13:19:10 <hythlodaeus> same as desert line then?
13:19:46 <hythlodaeus> frankly, I would like to have the option to play on a wholly snowed map
13:20:01 <hythlodaeus> but replacing farms with something else
13:20:38 <hythlodaeus> you could have like container yards instead representing food imports
14:23:03 <andythenorth> newgrf option to over-ride min. snowline height
14:25:53 <Samu> ok, farms generate at tile height 1 when now line is 3
14:27:50 <Samu> need to clamp to the uppder limit and lower limit
14:27:59 <Samu> lower limit because of farms
14:28:03 <Samu> upper limit because of forests
14:33:09 <nielsm> and then merge it on december 28th, and it will be a (kind-of) revert 11 years in the making
14:34:14 <nielsm> actually... I wonder if I could make it load the original setting that was cleared out from the savegame in the ancient version
14:34:29 <nielsm> so if you somehow find and load a savegame from 2008 or earlier, it inherits the old ending year setting
14:36:10 <hythlodaeus> why do forests only grow above snowline?
14:36:23 <nielsm> because that's the rules of sub-arctic landscape
14:36:50 <hythlodaeus> is it to divide economy a bit better?
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14:37:09 <nielsm> forcing you to make services onto the mountains
14:37:20 <hythlodaeus> sounds fair enough
14:37:55 <hythlodaeus> but having mines on mountains only would make a bit more sense tho
14:38:11 <hythlodaeus> like gold or coal only on mountains
14:38:37 <LordAro> nielsm: it'd be nice, but probably a bit much :p
14:40:30 <Samu> line 1298 of industry_cmd.cpp on checking farms if (GetTileZ(tile) + 2 >= HighestSnowLine()) {
14:42:47 <Samu> height 0 is water, they fail anyway
14:43:25 <Samu> but I get rare cases where farms are placed when snow height is 3, albeit very rarely
14:46:14 <hythlodaeus> desert landscape seems to be a lot less picky when placing farms
14:46:34 <hythlodaeus> say you generate a very flat desert map meaning most green will be near the shore
14:46:50 <hythlodaeus> it will actually pile up a fair amounts of farms on the shoreline
14:47:09 <hythlodaeus> have you checked how desert landscape does it? might be of help
14:54:23 <hythlodaeus> distribution on desert really piles up farms and fruit plantations
14:54:43 <hythlodaeus> so technically we could do the same and still have a lower snow line
14:59:16 <Samu> I got it! farms somehow generate at tile height 0, because it's using GetTileZ instead of GetMaxTileZ
14:59:36 <Samu> it happens on a sloped tile
15:00:32 <Samu> sometimes the terrain is flattened to height 0, sometimes it's not, depending on the slope
15:00:49 <Samu> and it's flattened to height 1, then the farm is placed there
15:01:18 <Samu> looks like this is a bug
15:06:19 <Samu> industry generator checked that tile with a hole on the top right to see if it can place a farm
15:06:31 <Samu> GetTileZ returns 0 there
15:06:43 <Samu> 0 + 2 >= 3 is false, which means farm is permitted here
15:06:58 <Samu> terrain is then flattened to height 0
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15:08:25 <Samu> only 4 farms were generated on a 64*4096
15:08:38 <Samu> the other industries are at ~25
15:10:28 <TrueBrain> LordAro: you can merge, but it will take a bit before it will be deployed :)
15:12:17 <Samu> failed to generate farms
15:12:28 <Samu> on this case, that's the intended behaviour
15:12:59 <Samu> which means, snowline of 4 is minimum possible to have farms generated
15:15:05 <hythlodaeus> but then again, how does desert do it on a smooth land?
15:16:52 <Samu> desert/grass seems to be different, becase I see it spawn on the same height
15:17:03 <Samu> doesn't seem related with arctic snowline
15:18:13 <hythlodaeus> my point is, if it was made a little bit more like desert, then you could afford to have lower snow lines
15:19:58 <TrueBrain> nice, and tnx a lot :)
15:21:25 <LordAro> i fancied writing some python this morning :)
15:25:19 <Samu> the way snow is coded here is based on height
15:26:30 <hythlodaeus> but so is desert, riught
15:26:45 <Samu> no, desert doesn't depend on height, it's a different algorithm
15:28:43 <Samu> now let me check forests
15:29:21 <Samu> if (GetTileZ(tile) < HighestSnowLine() + 2) {
15:31:56 <Samu> but this is also using GetTileZ
15:36:12 <Samu> maximum map height has to be 6
15:36:24 <Samu> to have both farms and forests, if i'm not mistaken, let me test
15:40:26 <andythenorth> also snowline is variable
15:40:36 <andythenorth> it optionally moves through the year
15:41:08 <hythlodaeus> is there an advanced setting for that?
15:41:14 <hythlodaeus> i thought it was only a newGRF
15:42:15 <Samu> GetTileZ is correct for the forest case
15:42:17 <andythenorth> Pikka: got some "Can't find suitable wagons" debug output
15:42:27 <andythenorth> interesting, lots of wagons are available...
15:44:39 <Samu> andythenorth, that's only during the game, not when generating scenario + industries
15:51:29 <Samu> height 0: water; height 1: land + farm; height 2: land; height 3: snow minimum density; height 4: the snow_line_height value, density +1; height 5: snow density +2; height 6: full snow, forests
15:52:32 <Samu> means the max height on the table is 7 to have a "valid" arctic map
15:52:59 <Samu> { 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 7 }, ///< Very flat
15:53:14 <Samu> very flat is really bad for this
15:53:38 <Samu> only 4096x4096 is able to generate a valid arctic map
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16:21:40 <Samu> I feel a bit alone on this :(
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16:41:22 <Samu> im submiting a PR of something I feel is a bug
16:42:49 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #7877: Fix: Farms could be generated at sea level https://git.io/Jebot
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17:50:05 <andythenorth> Dev post anyone? o_O
18:04:34 <LordAro> andythenorth: feel free to write one :p
18:05:43 <LordAro> hmm, 2 commits away from 24k, according to github
18:06:53 <LordAro> disregard the fact that we got to r28004 before migrating to git
18:08:06 <LordAro> dunno where some 5000 commits disappeared to
18:08:34 <LordAro> there weren't many of those
18:08:40 <nielsm> while the 24k are only direct trace from head to foot
18:08:43 <LordAro> we've got all the release branches, obviously
18:09:28 <nielsm> maybe some svn revisions did "nothing" and squashed away during the migration?
18:10:14 <LordAro> branch creation is the obvious one
18:10:31 <LordAro> maybe just 5000 commits in total throughout the years makes sense?
18:10:59 <LordAro> the biggest svn branch i'm aware of would be the cpp branch
18:18:38 <michi_cc> Well, it changes if you switch the branch in the overview, so I'd say definitly only count on the selected branch.
18:26:59 <LordAro> michi_cc: that would make sense
18:34:24 <andythenorth> Pikka: it's built an electric engine for a non-electrified route :)
18:34:44 <andythenorth> it has 3 routes converging on one station, 2 are electrified, with el depots
18:35:22 <Samu> as I was clearing snow line height from world gen gui the right way, I discovered that GS's have access to widgets from world gen
18:35:28 <Samu> what the heck could this mean'
18:36:33 <Samu> SQGSWindow.DefSQConst(engine, ScriptWindow::WID_GL_SNOW_LEVEL_TEXT, "WID_GL_SNOW_LEVEL_TEXT");
18:37:05 <Samu> got an error on this because I forgot to delete it, which makes me ask, could GS's generate worlds?
18:37:42 <nielsm> no because there isn't any way to open that window while a GS is running
18:37:57 <nielsm> or well... maybe? during scenario editor?
18:47:44 <Samu> how to deal with heightmaps
18:48:01 <Samu> loading a PNG and having openttd generate a heightmap
18:48:16 <Samu> what to do about snow line here
18:53:19 <Samu> the image could be blank, terragenesis then generates everything with the same height
18:53:33 <Samu> what snowlevel value for this?
18:54:03 <nielsm> there's a limit to how much own stupidity you can protect users against
18:56:19 <nielsm> does anyone have links to ottd 0.6.3 binaries?
18:56:38 <nielsm> I'm not sure how to construct them
18:57:12 <Samu> well then i think i leave it as is
18:57:37 <Samu> _settings_game.game_creation.snow_line_height = Clamp(snow_line_height, 4, max(4, highest_height - 2));
18:57:48 <Samu> when everything else fails, 4 is the answer
19:01:29 <Samu> btw, this number could be 3 if farms could be placed 1 level closer to snowline
19:02:08 <Samu> on those images i posted yesterday, let me find brb
19:05:00 <nielsm> ah, found the download
19:13:55 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] FLHerne commented on pull request #7877: Fix: Farms could be generated at sea level https://git.io/JebP6
19:17:24 <peter1138> Hmm, should I get some Jagermeister?
19:17:47 <peter1138> There's a cold-brew coffee flavour... Hmm.
19:18:37 <peter1138> I'd quite like a bottle of Red Velvet Bailey's, but it's some exclusive thing. And of course red velvet is just chocolate that's red.
19:23:37 <andythenorth> meh naming of things :P
19:23:59 <nielsm> and jägermeister was really not a bad idea, I just remembered I have a bottle with a few servings left in it, special edition with vanilla and cinnamon
19:30:34 <peter1138> Maybe next time I go shopping :-)
19:30:49 <peter1138> My booze cupboard is somewhat full anyway, and I have a load of Christmas beer to get through.
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19:33:52 <Samu> or, how to make it clear?
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19:41:26 <nielsm> hmm, issue #7890 is close :P
19:42:46 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] james5922 commented on issue #6566: Very long loading of the maximum "zoom out" level in 4K resolution https://git.io/fxABA
19:42:49 <Samu> forest explanation is slightly wrong
19:43:27 <Samu> b* Forests can only generate at a minimum of 'snow_line_height + 2'
19:45:48 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:50:51 <peter1138> Meh, can't stop snacking... stupid :(
19:51:14 <peter1138> At least I did actually get out on the bike today, but still.
19:51:21 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7877: Fix: Farms could be generated at sea level https://git.io/JebXK
19:52:12 <FLHerne> Samu: My point is, I don't see why it's inherently a problem for farms to exist at sea level
19:52:26 <FLHerne> The player can do the same manually
19:53:06 <FLHerne> (and IRL, most of the farms near me are /below/ sea level, because land shrinks when you drain it...)
19:54:00 <FLHerne> tbh, that criticism goes for a lot of your patches
19:54:26 <glx> indeed fore me #7877 tries to fix a non issue
19:55:14 <glx> every thing can be on sea level
19:55:17 <FLHerne> You seem to spend a lot of time and effort on things without explaining why they matter
19:55:42 <LordAro> that's Samu in a nutshell
19:56:03 * andythenorth currently obsessing about type 1 vs. type 2 tanks
19:59:07 <FLHerne> I respect the hard work, it just might be more useful with a clearer sense of purpose
19:59:26 * andythenorth considers giving in and using the livery subtypes feature
19:59:28 <andythenorth> even though it's bad
20:08:12 <andythenorth> railways have unhelpfully jargon-ish wagon names
20:08:28 <andythenorth> 'presflo', 'prestwin', 'polybulk', 'centerflow', 'grainflow'
20:08:39 <andythenorth> none of these help name wagons for the game
20:12:22 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7877: Fix: Farms could be generated at sea level https://git.io/Jeb18
20:23:26 <hythlodaeus> that's true, and some of it is confusing on top of it
20:23:58 <hythlodaeus> i.e. in my language, "semaphore" can and in fact is mostly used to describe electric light signals
20:24:40 <hythlodaeus> but on railway vocabulary, my own language included, "semaphore" specifically means non-electric signal furniture
20:26:04 <hythlodaeus> railways people also use the same word as "lighthouse" to refer to electric lights to make it extra confusing for laypeople
20:28:08 <nielsm> at least in germanic language railway tradition, the accurate technical terms are pretty distinct: form signal and light signal
20:30:16 <hythlodaeus> that's just german being a very precise language and good for describing objects in general
20:30:32 <hythlodaeus> romance languages tend to be a wee bit more cryptic
20:32:19 <andythenorth> which is better ^
20:32:23 <andythenorth> they all refit the same things
20:33:24 <nielsm> "apart from liking one colour over the other, why use them?"
20:36:47 <nielsm> for unimportant design choices (material choices from manufacturer?) I think I prefer style determined by purchase date, such that all the styles rotate multiple times throughout the availability period
20:37:28 <nielsm> such as every 256 days the design changes
20:41:50 <andythenorth> I'm pretty unconvinced by the colour-based names
20:42:06 <andythenorth> but using specific cargo names is double-edged
20:42:25 <andythenorth> it specifically helps find a wagon for a cargo, but the coal hopper refits many other cargos
20:42:35 <andythenorth> whereas the carbon black hopper (not shown) does not
20:42:45 <andythenorth> consistency it is not :P
20:43:57 <andythenorth> the silver one could be 'lightweight hopper' (but it isn't) or 'aluminium hopper' (but so what) or 'merry-go-round hopper' (only UK train fans will understand that)
20:45:39 <nielsm> "aluminium hopper" so it carries aluminium?
20:46:32 <andythenorth> aluminium because it's silver :P
20:47:11 <andythenorth> meanwhile IRL uk trains, coal hoppers carry all bulk cargos, except when they don't because coal is too dense so they're overload easily
20:47:15 <andythenorth> scrap wagons carry coal
20:47:30 <andythenorth> aggregate wagons carry anything that can be unloaded with an excavator
20:47:46 <andythenorth> grain wagons carry quicklime
21:11:26 * andythenorth wonders about a new purchase menu, with +/- widgets :P
21:16:46 <andythenorth> 'Coal-type Hopper', 'Stone-type Hopper', 'Ore-type hopper'?
21:17:45 <Samu> looks like it won't flood
21:17:58 <Samu> there's a DC_NO_WATER on the terraform command
21:25:56 <nielsm> or you could invent some manufacturer names
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21:56:11 <Samu> so many farms digging a hole
21:56:23 <Samu> because the other nearby also did so
21:59:33 <Samu> there's only 10 farms on the map, and that little place has 7 of them
22:00:53 <hythlodaeus> that seems like a problem
22:05:12 <Samu> i used a maximum map height of 6 on purpose to augment the chances of this happening
22:06:19 <Samu> but... maybe with the right conditions, this can also happen on 1.10
22:11:28 <Samu> uep, also happens in 1.10
22:12:11 <Samu> 8 farms on the map, 5 generated next to each other
22:25:47 * andythenorth wonders about making a realism set
22:25:53 <andythenorth> instead of a pseudo-realism set
22:26:07 <andythenorth> no requirement to do any actual design or gameplay :P
22:31:17 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7877: Fix: Farms could be generated at sea level https://git.io/JebyW
22:33:20 <Samu> i found no actual flooding
22:33:50 <Samu> but I don't know yet if it's possible
22:35:43 <Samu> now you're gonna say "what is the problem of 50 farms being next to each other!! ITS REAL!"
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23:15:46 <Pikka> electric train on non-electrified line?
23:18:33 <andythenorth> I think it detected the depot at the target station was electrified
23:18:54 <andythenorth> yeah there is one depot at the destination, that's electric
23:19:04 <andythenorth> the route to source is not el though
23:23:05 <andythenorth> do some devloloping :)
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23:52:36 <Samu> I can't trigger any flood
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23:56:34 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 commented on pull request #7870: Doc: improved english tooltips draft https://git.io/JebS0
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