IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-12-16
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01:45:36 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #7861: Starting a new map from the title screen NewGRF window reloads the NewGRFs twice. https://git.io/JeQS1
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05:15:52 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7649: Save game can't open (liblzma returned error code)? https://git.io/fjXvL
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11:05:47 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/nml] planetmaker commented on pull request #68: Fix: close image files after use during palette check https://git.io/JeQx7
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14:20:37 <hythlodaeus> hello, can I speak with someone in charge of the translation team?
14:20:55 <hythlodaeus> I emailed my application for a volunteer translator many days ago, but haven't received a reply since
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15:52:22 <planetmaker> I work on translation e-mails like... every month at most :P
15:53:53 <planetmaker> and I asked more than one time for one or two further people to support me there
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15:56:03 <FLHerne> What does that actually entail?
15:58:45 <planetmaker> reading e-mails. Telling 10% of the people who apply that you need more data (like user name. Or how to create a completely new translation etc). for the other 90% you add them in phpldapadmin to the proper group and commit that
15:59:05 <planetmaker> I cannot say I like the workflow with phpldapadmin :)
15:59:37 <Sacro> Better or worse than straight LDAP?
15:59:50 <planetmaker> I cannot say, I never figured out straight ldap
16:00:04 <Sacro> I have used it on occasion, it's horrible
16:00:21 <planetmaker> then it's better. It's sugar-coated horror
16:04:18 <planetmaker> and of course I forgot one important part of workflow: you have to reply to the other 90% e-mails after you changed permissions in phpldapadmin :)
16:05:24 <LordAro> planetmaker: i'm reasonably certain there are only about 3 (mildly active) people with access to the relevant mailboxes and systems
16:05:41 <LordAro> if you want more people to look at translations, you need to change that first :p
16:07:50 <planetmaker> That's what I'm saying... yes. Changing translations is reasonably sensitive as you can in phpldapadmin wrek havoc on all kinds of permissions though.
16:07:54 <hythlodaeus> planetmaker: I already created a registry on the website
16:08:15 <hythlodaeus> I sent the email detailing my background and asking permission to be given access
16:08:23 <planetmaker> hylshols7qui[m], I don't have access to the e-mails currently. But... what's your login and the desired language?
16:08:45 <hythlodaeus> profile name: mcbanhas
16:08:53 <hythlodaeus> language: portuguese (portugal)
16:10:25 <hythlodaeus> if you guys need people to help managing translations: I used to work as a project manager for the translation industry myself
16:10:52 <planetmaker> ok, please check that your translation access works now
16:13:22 <hythlodaeus> who's in charge of coordinating? are there any guidelines/glossaries I can access?
16:15:55 <planetmaker> Well, I guess I'm the only one remaining of the translation managers. If your question is about a single language: the people from that language themselves. If there's something to discuss between translators, I encourage you to open a thread on the "translations into Portuguese" in our forums
16:16:16 <planetmaker> That method is not ideal, and there's no guidelines for the individual languages per-se
16:16:32 <hythlodaeus> yeah, no translation memory support either
16:16:45 <planetmaker> Maybe, just maybe, such thread exists... but yes, there's memory for the translations
16:16:50 <hythlodaeus> it's all pretty manual
16:17:34 <planetmaker> often, when fixing things, the "related strings" are a good guide.
16:17:50 <planetmaker> But making a language universally consistent can be pretty difficult
16:18:42 <planetmaker> hm... the memory actually is not there, exactly... I thought it was :|
16:19:01 <hythlodaeus> from my experience, the PT-PT translation is quite alright actually, with a few irks and mistakes here and there
16:22:42 <hythlodaeus> btw, can I ask: there's a NewGRF for randomly generated town names which is not implement in the trunk yet. It's actually of very good quality and quite well done. The generated town names obey to portuguese toponymy very well-
16:25:17 <planetmaker> will it be integrated in the game? Unlikely as townnames are NewGRF domain. The vanilla lists are defficient in many respects, yes... but difficult to change. It breaks savegame compatibility... for strange implementation-specific reasons
16:29:19 <FLHerne> hythlodaeus: For what it's worth, the generated "English" town names are amusingly ridiculous :P
16:29:38 <planetmaker> For basically every major language there exist better townname NewGRFs than OpenTTD's default generators
16:30:14 <FLHerne> So if you want sensible town names, NewGRFs are the answer there too
16:30:27 <hythlodaeus> no no, the thing there is no generator for portuguese at all
16:30:49 <hythlodaeus> it can't break any savegames because there is no vanilla town names for PTPT at the moment
16:31:32 <hythlodaeus> so it wouldn't be replacing anything
16:32:40 <Pikka> frequent lolz, andythenorth
16:50:36 <planetmaker> hythlodaeus, just my personal 2ct: strictly speaking, the townnames as-is in OpenTTD should probably be mimimiced 1:1 by a corresponding NewGRF. The the integrated generators can go, and everything is available as NewGRFs :) And then one can think of shipping a few select as defaults
16:51:09 <planetmaker> (same as one should think of shipping default AI)... but these things are highly controversal :)
16:54:24 <hythlodaeus> planetmaker, that's impossible. you cannot mimic 1:1 the town names in different languages because the original formation depends heavily on English semantics
16:55:25 <hythlodaeus> you can say, for example, "I think the town names for other languages should be equally humorous" but that does not necessarily means it has to comply with the formation rules applied on the default set
16:55:52 <planetmaker> eh? Also ingame you choose a townname language... why shouldn't that be possible to mimic?
16:57:21 <planetmaker> I mean, the default townname lists... sure they can be done via NewGRF. No need to make them all in one NewGRF. But even that is possible
16:58:10 <hythlodaeus> oh sorry I thought you were talking semantics
16:58:58 <planetmaker> Yes... even that. The one townname NewGRF I wrote has 6 different generation rules. Depending on which you choose you get different townnames (or a random selection from all)
16:59:25 <planetmaker> generation rules as in "South, North, East, West, all, random, random and real"
16:59:33 <planetmaker> so it's actually 7 :P
16:59:37 <hythlodaeus> you can't expect all languagues to conform for english rules tho
16:59:59 <planetmaker> yes. But no need. I can, in a NewGRF make one rule for Portuguese names, one for English, one for German, etc
17:00:16 <planetmaker> *one set of rules
17:00:49 <planetmaker> And that can even be done in one NewGRF...
17:01:01 <planetmaker> would actually be an interesting project: NewGRF which generates the default names :D
17:01:18 <planetmaker> and part2: modify OpenTTD to use that NewGRF by default
17:02:18 <hythlodaeus> well, all in all, what I am saying is, portuguese as a language is fully supported by default except for a town name generator. there is a very good one available, and it is very good. I think it should be included in the default package because it's sort of ideal to be able to run language with corresponding town names
17:02:29 <hythlodaeus> how it is implemented it is of little concern really
17:03:12 <planetmaker> Then we'd add a lot of different townname sets :) We have about 65 supported languages
17:03:27 <hythlodaeus> but we already have that
17:04:14 <hythlodaeus> we have 22 town name generators toal
17:04:34 <planetmaker> yes, sadly :) There should be one default and the rest via NewGRF
17:05:10 <planetmaker> All 22 are actually somewhere between ok and bad
17:05:18 <planetmaker> mostly for offering too few names
17:06:09 <hythlodaeus> well what I can tell you is that the current portuguese generator is made of the names of every little town, city, and village in portugal
17:06:29 <hythlodaeus> it is quite impressive. I've seen names of places showing up I would never expect
17:06:40 <planetmaker> they fail on a 4k x 4k map with plenty towns.
17:07:02 <planetmaker> The NewGRF one you describe likely won't fail... as it has most or all places, thus a big enough number
17:07:46 <planetmaker> The same holds true for the NewGRF townname sets for the other "big" lanugagues: default sucks, the NewGRF offers much better quality. So... use NewGRF
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17:14:46 <hythlodaeus> Yeah but that's also why there's English and English (aditional) on the default package
17:16:33 <hythlodaeus> and in 4k sized maps no town name generator seems to work properly. there's a certain extent of repetition happening that doesn't seem to be related with the amount of names themselves... likely it's the generating algoritm
17:20:58 <planetmaker> @calc 4 x 25 * 7 * 7 * 22 * 9
17:20:58 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
17:21:04 <planetmaker> @calc 4 * 25 * 7 * 7 * 22 * 9
17:21:13 <planetmaker> hm. That's plenty for original English :D
17:22:34 <hythlodaeus> wel nevermind, I can submit a ticket later about this matter :)
17:22:54 <planetmaker> @calc 6* 42 * 25 * 11 * 5 * 3 * 54 * 17
17:22:54 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 954261000
17:22:59 <planetmaker> plenty more for additional
17:23:37 <planetmaker> I nearly can guarantee you that there will be no ingame addition of further townname generators. NewGRFs is the way there
17:24:08 <planetmaker> iff... some further NewGRFs could be shipped...
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17:25:03 <planetmaker> damn... 8 years ago that I wrote the townname NewGRF :-O
17:27:33 <planetmaker> @calc 7 * (38 * 29 + 4*4) * 89
17:27:44 <planetmaker> well... that's how many random I came up with :D
17:30:02 <hythlodaeus> default town names for every language is a really good thing for localization though. it greatly improves the standard on how the game handles translation by default. the problem with leaving it to NewGRFs is like saying "oh my game is incomplete, but hopfully modders will fix it"
17:30:04 <planetmaker> that's the default number for German names shipped with OpenTTD
17:30:52 <planetmaker> hythlodaeus, I disagree. By default we also don't ship localized vehicles, houses or industries or landscapes
17:31:13 <planetmaker> Townnames are part of the map. Not of the translation
17:31:25 <hythlodaeus> because those are ficticious brand names, not a matter of geography
17:32:34 <hythlodaeus> town names allow one to imagine a reality similar to one's own country. it's the least one can do, I think, assuming the base architecture is all English based
17:35:01 <hythlodaeus> but I'm sorry, this is a rather complicated subject in the end
17:35:16 <hythlodaeus> Ill stick to translation for now :)
18:06:35 <hythlodaeus> btw, if I have a question about a string to whom I can direct it?
18:08:51 <FLHerne> hythlodaeus: Might as well ask here, then the forum
18:09:02 <FLHerne> I don't think there's any designated "string expert"
18:10:54 <nielsm> also what kind of question? a content-related one (why does it use these words) or a technical (how does formatting work)
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18:24:04 <hythlodaeus> i don't have a question now, but I will in the future :)
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19:45:51 <DorpsGek_III_> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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21:14:03 <Wolf01> Isn't that another way to call the remove tool?
21:16:25 <nielsm> well, without having to follow track exactly and such?
21:17:28 <nielsm> also remove tool doesn't have a way to filter tiles by ownership, you can't make removal tool touch your roads but not town-owned roads
21:40:08 <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #7800: Easier access for vehicles' group window. https://git.io/JeEtl
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